Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:00 AM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (JonSmith)
2. 02:16 AM - Re: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size? (Richard Scanlan)
3. 02:20 AM - Re: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size? (Carl Pattinson)
4. 02:24 AM - Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE (Carl Pattinson)
5. 02:34 AM - Re: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size? (Graham Singleton)
6. 02:49 AM - Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE (steve v)
7. 03:29 AM - Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE (philip george)
8. 04:24 AM - Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE (William Harrison)
9. 09:47 AM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (Fred Klein)
10. 10:14 AM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (William Harrison)
11. 10:26 AM - Re: StructuraL failure or? ()
12. 10:29 AM - Tailplane anti servo tab (Frank Mycroft)
13. 12:28 PM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (Carl Pattinson)
14. 02:17 PM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (Fred Klein)
15. 02:26 PM - Re: StructuraL failure or? (William Harrison)
16. 05:01 PM - Europa Fit Test trip report (Richard Pottorff)
17. 05:20 PM - Texas (Venu Rao)
18. 09:07 PM - Re: Europa Fit Test trip report (G&TPowell)
19. 09:15 PM - Tailplane torque tube bushing question (G&TPowell)
20. 09:56 PM - Re: Tailplane torque tube bushing question (Fred Klein)
21. 10:16 PM - Re: Tailplane torque tube bushing question (R.C.Harrison)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
Hi, Just a couple more points on this topic! Two years ago a friend of mine with
his owner/build partner flew with one trim tab's pin disengaged (for 200 nm
to the PFA Kemble rally infact!) and they didn't notice any difference! Neither
were very experienced on the Europa at the time though having only recently
finished it. My friend (his turn to fly home) noticed it on his preflight walk
around at Kemble.
I think they were both very lucky. Yesterday, as a result of this topic, when
I was at my plane I deliberately "accidently" rigged the tailplanes with a pin
disengaged, to see what happens to the tab and T-bar. I started with the pin
resting on top of the T-bar. On mine the pin sits naturally on top of the bar
towards the rear of it. On moving the elevator control the pin can very easily
drop to beneath the bar and does so readily. Personally I don't think this
would have an enormous aerodynamic effect, the tab is very light and I think
it would just stream with the airflow if it's not fixed to the actuating mechanism
(my uneducated opinion) [b:57be851a4b]BUT, what I did notice was that with
the pin below the T-bar, when I moved the stick fully back the pin was able
to drop a bit lower and lodge on top of that funny fuselage joggle/ moulding
that sticks out from the fuselage vertically parallel to the T-bar slot, very
effectively jamming the elevator almost fully up.[/b
:57be851a4b] On mine it did it every time I tried it and was impossible to free
from the cockpit.
Easy solution - do not fly a mis-rigged aeroplane!
Cheers, Jon
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 2
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| Subject: | Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size? |
Hi Richard, I=92m 6=925=92=92 and did a high top mod on mine and now
have the
option of adding extra padding to lift my head up to the cockpit roof.
>From new the factory offer this mod or (as mine) you can introduce this
mod on a part built kit. Also Ian Rickard has introduced the high
top/low top mod which is the best of both worlds. Contact him through
the forum.
Richard Scanlan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Pottorff
Sent: 16 September 2007 02:03
Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size?
Hi,
I'm considerably larger than the FAA standard pilot - 6'3", 210 or so
lbs. I'm seriously considering building a Europa XL, but after reading a
CAF=C9 Foundation Europa Classic APR, I'm concerned there might not be
enough leg and head room. Shoulder room shouldn't be a problem; I'm
taking flying lessons in a Cessna 172, and it only has a 40" wide
cockpit. I'm jammed against the door, but its not uncomfortable.
I'm currently in Wichita, KS, and occasionally rent airline seats for
the ride back to my real home in Silicon Valley (San Jose, CA area). So,
any builders local to either area that have enough of the fuselage
finished for me to check out my fit in an XS that would let me sit in it
for a couple of minutes?
Thanks,
Richard Pottorff
(C) 408 747 7286
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size? |
Hi,
I am 6' 3" and 196 lbs (14st) and have a standard original classic
Europa. Never had a problem with legroom and when seated there is a at
least an inch between my head (including headsets) and the canopy at the
nearest point.
Im in the UK though so cant help with a test ride.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Pottorff
To: europa-list
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:03 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size?
Hi,
I'm considerably larger than the FAA standard pilot - 6'3", 210 or so
lbs. I'm seriously considering building a Europa XL, but after reading a
CAF=C9 Foundation Europa Classic APR, I'm concerned there might not be
enough leg and head room. Shoulder room shouldn't be a problem; I'm
taking flying lessons in a Cessna 172, and it only has a 40" wide
cockpit. I'm jammed against the door, but its not uncomfortable.
I'm currently in Wichita, KS, and occasionally rent airline seats for
the ride back to my real home in Silicon Valley (San Jose, CA area). So,
any builders local to either area that have enough of the fuselage
finished for me to check out my fit in an XS that would let me sit in it
for a couple of minutes?
Thanks,
Richard Pottorff
(C) 408 747 7286
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
MessageThanks Ian, we had a great day out.
It was heartening to see so many mono wheels on the flight line.
Sometimes it seems as though we are a dying breed (Classics - not
Europas).
Carl & Dot Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gamble
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE
Thanks Ian. A marvelous day with all those Europa's on view and such
fantastic weather. A great insentive for me to get on and finish my own
project. I shall press on.
Regards
Mike
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Try a Europa XS on for size? |
Richard
depends on body/leg length ratio. Long legs are a bit of a problem.
Graham
Richard Pottorff wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm considerably larger than the FAA standard pilot - 6'3", 210 or so
> lbs. I'm seriously considering building a Europa XL, but after reading a
> CAF Foundation Europa Classic APR, I'm concerned there might not be
> enough leg and head room. Shoulder room shouldn't be a problem; I'm
> taking flying lessons in a Cessna 172, and it only has a 40" wide
> cockpit. I'm jammed against the door, but its not uncomfortable.
>
> I'm currently in Wichita, KS, and occasionally rent airline seats for
> the ride back to my real home in Silicon Valley (San Jose, CA area). So,
> any builders local to either area that have enough of the fuselage
> finished for me to check out my fit in an XS that would let me sit in it
> for a couple of minutes?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Richard Pottorff
> (C) 408 747 7286
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
Yes, thanks for a great afternoon, i thoroughly enjoyed meeting some of the Europa
community,
Steve Vestuti, G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 7
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| Subject: | Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
Thanks Ian.A good day at Old Sarum, good to see you all and the weather a b
onus too .
Phil & Belen George (G-EORJ)
From: carl@flyers.freeserve.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Re:
Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATEDate: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:23:50 +0100
Thanks Ian, we had a great day out.
It was heartening to see so many mono wheels on the flight line. Sometimes
it seems as though we are a dying breed (Classics - not Europas).
Carl & Dot Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gamble
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE
Thanks Ian. A marvelous day with all those Europa's on view and such fantas
tic weather. A great insentive for me to get on and finish my own project.
I shall press on.
Regards
Mike
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_________________________________________________________________
Get free emoticon packs and customisation from Windows Live.
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE |
Thanks also from me, Ian. Great company, venue, weather etc.
Willie Harrison
G-BZNY
On 16 Sep 2007, at 11:28, philip george wrote:
> Thanks Ian.A good day at Old Sarum, good to see you all and the
> weather a bonus too .
>
> Phil & Belen George (G-EORJ)
>
>
> From: carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE
> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:23:50 +0100
>
> Thanks Ian, we had a great day out.
>
> It was heartening to see so many mono wheels on the flight line.
> Sometimes it seems as though we are a dying breed (Classics - not
> Europas).
>
> Carl & Dot Pattinson
> G-LABS
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Gamble
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 9:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in UPDATE
>
> Thanks Ian. A marvelous day with all those Europa's on view and
> such fantastic weather. A great insentive for me to get on and
> finish my own project. I shall press on.
> Regards
> Mike
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://
> www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://
> forums.matronics.com
> arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listp://
> forums.matronics.com
>
> Are you the Quizmaster? Play BrainBattle with a friend now!
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List_-
> ============================================================ _-
> forums.matronics.com_-
> ===========================================================
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
On Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 12:57 AM, JonSmith wrote:
> Yesterday, as a result of this topic, when I was at my plane I
> deliberately "accidently" rigged the tailplanes with a pin disengaged,
> to see what happens to the tab and T-bar. I started with the pin
> resting on top of the T-bar. On mine the pin sits naturally on top of
> the bar towards the rear of it. On moving the elevator control the
> pin can very easily drop to beneath the bar and does so readily.
> BUT, what I did notice was that with the pin below the T-bar, when I
> moved the stick fully back the pin was able to drop a bit lower and
> lodge on top of that funny fuselage joggle/ moulding that sticks out
> from the fuselage vertically parallel to the T-bar slot, very
> effectively jamming the elevator almost fully up.[/b:57be851a4b]
> On mine it did it every time I tried it and was impossible to free
> from the cockpit.
Jon...thanks for taking the time to check this out (safely on the
ground). Coupled with Jos's hypothesis and the radar tracking data he
referenced in his posts of Sept. 11 and Sept. 14, this is beginning to
sound like a plausible scenario. I hope someone is forwarding it to the
AAIB.
Fred
A194
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
In addition to the radar tracking data I understand (don't know if it
is rumour or established fact) that the investigators have
interrogated the aircraft's gps and found evidence of much higher
speed than previously assumed. Can anyone shed light on this?
Willie H.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
For what it is worth, I attached a copy of Mod 58 which describes
handeling of Europa in flight with a fractured trim tab drive pin.
Ron parigoris
Message 12
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| Subject: | Tailplane anti servo tab |
Re Jos's thoughts about tab drives
If one of the tab pins is not in the T-bar but is loose above it it will
be moved in the right direction when you pull back on the stick, but
will float free when you push the stick forward, and the reverse if it
is below the T-bar. When free it will have no effect on the tailplane
on that side, but the tab on the other side will still be doing its work
so you may be able to maintain control. But I would expect the 'free'
tab to try to emulate the Union Jack on the top of Edinburgh Castle so
the sooner it departs the tailplane the better. If it does that without
doing too much damage and without dislodging the T-bar from the other
tab I would think that the aeroplane would still be controllable, though
probably with difficulty.
There is a lot we don't know about this awful accident, but William is
reported as having said that the construction was a bit 'agricultural'
(he didn't build it), and its failure to get over a col in the Alps last
summer without four tries may have been a straw in the wind. Not all
Europas are created equal and anyone buying second hand should have a
very good look at what he is buying.
Frank Mycroft
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
The aircraft had just been through its annual inspection at Bodmin (where
the aircraft had flown to). My understanding is that the post inspection
flight test may have taken place during the course of the return flight.
This would have included a dive to VNE (ie: 165 kts). If the recovery was
made badly the airframe could have become overstressed, resulting in
premature failure of one or both of the wings.
It is already public knowledge that one of the wing root pins was badly
installed resulting in the pin ripping out from the alloy mounting plates in
the wing root.
However this is only a theory and we may never know what caused this tragic
accident.
Carl Pattinson
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Harrison" <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: StructuraL failure or?
> <willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk>
>
> In addition to the radar tracking data I understand (don't know if it is
> rumour or established fact) that the investigators have interrogated the
> aircraft's gps and found evidence of much higher speed than previously
> assumed. Can anyone shed light on this?
>
> Willie H.
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
On Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 12:27 PM, Carl Pattinson wrote:
> It is already public knowledge that one of the wing root pins was
> badly installed resulting in the pin ripping out from the alloy
> mounting plates in the wing root.
>
> However this is only a theory and we may never know what caused this
> tragic accident.
As Carl implies, the key question is: What was the initiating event?
Fred
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: StructuraL failure or? |
.....or if the air was not smooth at vne???
On 16 Sep 2007, at 20:27, Carl Pattinson wrote:
> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> The aircraft had just been through its annual inspection at Bodmin
> (where the aircraft had flown to). My understanding is that the
> post inspection flight test may have taken place during the course
> of the return flight.
>
> This would have included a dive to VNE (ie: 165 kts). If the
> recovery was made badly the airframe could have become
> overstressed, resulting in premature failure of one or both of the
> wings.
>
> I
Message 16
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| Subject: | Europa Fit Test trip report |
Hi All,
Martin, who lives in Wichita bases his Europa in an Augusta Municipal
Airport hangar. He was good enough to let me sit in his plane this
afternoon. It is very nicely done, and I appreciated the opportunity. I
was looking forward to fitting into it.
Unfortunately, I didn't fit. I'm giving my measurements so others can
judge accordingly. I'm 6'3", 210 lbs. I have a 44 inch chest and 34 inch
inseam. I also have broad shoulders.
I needed 4 more inches of headroom, 4 more inches of leg room, and 4
more inches on each side of the cabin (so it would be symmetrical) of
shoulder room. There are semi-easy fixes for the head and leg room
issues, but not so easy for the shoulder room issues.
In summary, I like the plane, its specifications, and the quick
assembly/disassembly features, but I don't fit so I need to keep
looking.
Thanks again Martin.
CAVCU all,
Rick
Richard Pottorff
(C) 408 747 7286
Message 17
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Are there any Europa Mono owners based in Texas?
I'm getting ready to buy one, and live in Austin, Tx.
Cheers,
Venu Rao
Austin, Tx
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Fit Test trip report |
Rick:
I would not gainsay your actual sitting in the aircraft to determine fit; I did
the same thing at Oshkosh in 2003. However, I am 6' 4", 200 lbs., with a 44"
chest and while snug, the cockpit of the XS does fit me. (The fit is much like
my Honda S2000, but with less shoulder room.) I flew the factory demonstrator
a few times, and found it to be comfortable.
I do not have the Hi-Top mod, but do have the factory-made widening of the door
sill at the shoulder. I will probably use the bubble mod on the door glass.
I also plan to use one of the common mods to the center tunnel (I have a tri-gear)
to allow for more hip room.
Good luck with whatever plane you choose!
George Powell
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 19
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| Subject: | Tailplane torque tube bushing question |
I purchased an XS kit in 2003 and never got my Accelerated Stage I kit, due to
the collapse of EMIL. Later, I purchased the tailplanes already built from a
charity that got them from someone's estate. The torque tube TP4 is extremely
tight when I try to put the tailplanes on, and it is nearly impossible to get
the TP4 to seat properly in the TP6 sleeve already bonded into the tailplanes
(the TP12 pins will not seat into the TP13 bushes, due to the difficulty in getting
the torque tube in). If I can't get the tailplanes on in my shop, I certainly
won't be able to get them on the completed airplane.
It appears I have 2 choices: cut into the tailplanes and remove/reseat the TP6
sleeve, or build new tailplanes.
How difficult a task is it to unbond the TP6 bushing and reseat it, making sure
the TP4 fits properly and does not bind? If I go this route, what is the best
course to take?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
George Powell
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane torque tube bushing question |
On Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 09:14 PM, G&TPowell wrote:
> <georgepowell@hotmail.com>
> The torque tube TP4 is extremely tight when I try to put the
> tailplanes on, and it is nearly impossible to get the TP4 to seat
> properly in the TP6 sleeve already bonded into the tailplanes (the
> TP12 pins will not seat into the TP13 bushes, due to the difficulty in
> getting the torque tube in).
George,
I had the same extremely tight fit and found that a liberal coating of
vaseline on the tube did wonders.
Fred
A193
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Tailplane torque tube bushing question |
Hi! Fred
Vasiline is too viscus try very light oil.
Bob H G-PTAG
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 17 September 2007 05:55
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube bushing question
On Sunday, September 16, 2007, at 09:14 PM, G&TPowell wrote:
> <georgepowell@hotmail.com>
> The torque tube TP4 is extremely tight when I try to put the
> tailplanes on, and it is nearly impossible to get the TP4 to seat
> properly in the TP6 sleeve already bonded into the tailplanes (the
> TP12 pins will not seat into the TP13 bushes, due to the difficulty in
> getting the torque tube in).
George,
I had the same extremely tight fit and found that a liberal coating of
vaseline on the tube did wonders.
Fred
A193
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