Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:13 AM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in Saturday 22nd September (Steve Pitt)
2. 01:50 AM - Re: Dive to Vne (UVTReith@aol.com)
3. 02:36 AM - Re: Europa for heavy boys (Hans J. Danielsen)
4. 07:48 AM - Re: Dive to Vne (europa flugzeug fabrik)
5. 09:04 AM - Re: Dive to Vne (William Daniell)
6. 11:01 AM - Re: Dive to Vne (Graham Singleton)
7. 11:17 AM - Re: Dive to Vne (Andrew Sarangan)
8. 11:49 AM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (jim Brown)
9. 12:56 PM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (Peter Zutrauen)
10. 01:17 PM - Re: Europa for heavy boys (Raimo Toivio)
11. 01:42 PM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (Fred Klein)
12. 02:43 PM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (Terry Seaver (terrys))
13. 03:21 PM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (Raimo Toivio)
14. 03:22 PM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (Fred Klein)
15. 04:17 PM - Re: Dive to Vne (William Harrison)
16. 04:18 PM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (Graham Singleton)
17. 05:34 PM - Re: Europa for heavy boys (Richard Pottorff)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in Saturday 22nd September |
David,
Thank you for the timely reminder re Laddingford. I hope to be there
with G-SMDH plus one passenger.
Regards
Steve Pitt
Message 2
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Michael,
That's correct.
Herzliche Gr=FC=DFe aus Deutschland,
Bruno
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Europa for heavy boys |
A good answer to this problem is to modify the human body itself!
Hans # 334. (Not flying do to loss of medical)
----- Original Message -----
From: UVTReith@aol.com
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:41 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Europa for heavy boys
Hi Friends,
There is somebody who would like to buy a Tri-Gear kit but he is a
really imposant boy.
145 kg x 183 cm
I guess, in this case some Mod's are necessary:
Mod 64: High Top - do I need that with 183 cm ?!?
Mod 24: Modification to increase seat width - this is especially good
for more "bum space"
Mod 67: Cockpit width increase (now standard with new kits)
Bubble typ door windows ? They do not like really nice, do they?
I think, that is all we could do or have I missed something.
Maybe some of you have some more ideas?
Best Regards,
Bruno
Message 4
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I don't understand this one. How does the PFA know to what speed you did the test?
If there's no enforcement mechanism, this is ludicrous. I cannot think
of any gov't requirement here where we must certify the unprovable and the authorities
are perfectly OK with that.
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135477#135477
Message 5
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Ah thanks now I get it next question
It seems at first sight a sensible thing to do ' rather than trying to
do it
in flight. I would be interested to know what everyone else thinks. Of
course there is always the possibility that your pride and joy breaks.
But
probably better this than it breaks in the air=85
Is there an instruction manual on how to go about it?
Can one simulate the dive to Vne? ' I would assume not but perhaps
some
parts of it can be simulated in separate operations as it were??
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Grass
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 23:06
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
William,
If you do the math:
2 times 1350Kg = 2700 kg or around 5940pounds
This would be about the designed max +3.8 G as specified by Europa plus
about a 15 % safety factor
Just guessing
Michael Grass
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:wdaniell@etb.net.co"William Daniell
"mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:15 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
Forgive my ignorance but why 1350kg=85?
Will
From: HYPERLINK
"mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com"owner-europa-list-server@m
atr
onics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
HYPERLINK "mailto:UVTReith@aol.com"UVTReith@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 16:35
"mailto:europa-list@matronics.com"europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
Here in Germany we do not do that Vne Dive Test, we are making the
static
wing load test with maximum 1.350 kg laod on each wing (upside down). On
the
tailwing we put 100 kg on one side and 150 kg on the other side and swap
that then.
This is a requirement from the OUV (the German PFA).
Bruno
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
http://forums.matronics.com
9/18/2007 11:53
9/18/2007 11:53
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/
Nav
igator?Europa-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
9/18/2007
11:53
9/18/2007
11:53
Message 6
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There is a significant risk of invisible damage imho so I would not want
to test to more than 3 G. Check for any permanent deflection unloaded
then retest and check again that deflections remain the same.
Graham
William Daniell wrote:
> Ah thanks now I get it next question
>
> It seems at first sight a sensible thing to do rather than trying to
> do it in flight. I would be interested to know what everyone else
> thinks. Of course there is always the possibility that your pride and
> joy breaks. But probably better this than it breaks in the air
>
>
>
> Is there an instruction manual on how to go about it?
>
>
>
> Can one simulate the dive to Vne? I would assume not but perhaps some
> parts of it can be simulated in separate operations as it were??
>
>
>
> Will
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Michael Grass
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 19, 2007 23:06
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
>
>
>
> William,
>
>
>
> If you do the math:
>
> 2 times 1350Kg = 2700 kg or around 5940pounds
>
>
>
> This would be about the designed max +3.8 G as specified by Europa plus
> about a 15 % safety factor
>
>
>
>
>
> Just guessing
>
>
>
> Michael Grass
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* William Daniell <mailto:wdaniell@etb.net.co>
>
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com <mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:15 PM
>
> *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
>
>
>
> Forgive my ignorance but why 1350kg?
>
> Will
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *UVTReith@aol.com <mailto:UVTReith@aol.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 19, 2007 16:35
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com <mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
>
>
>
> Here in Germany we do not do that Vne Dive Test, we are making the
> static wing load test with maximum 1.350 kg laod on each wing (upside
> down). On the tailwing we put 100 kg on one side and 150 kg on the other
> side and swap that then.
>
>
>
> This is a requirement from the OUV (the German PFA).
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List*
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
>
> 9/18/2007 11:53
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 7
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Vne is not always an airframe limitation. Under FAR 23.33 (U.S. regs),
the propeller speed should remain within 110% of the max rpm at Vne. I
know that the Diamond Katana aircraft had such a Vne. It had nothing to
do with the airframe. Also, experimentals do not have to comply with
Part 23, and for that matter, I don't think there is any requirement to
even have a Vne.
Even in the case of airframe-limited Vne, it may not be a load factor
limit. The 3.8G someone else mentioned is for Va. Vne could be, for
example, the speed at which the windows blow out; or the antennas get
ripped out. It may have little to do with wing loading.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Remi
I have the XS Monowheel with the 914 and Airmaster installed.
Your results are about the same as what we got when I also installed the
speed kit mod. I saw a increase of 3 knots average over several runs.
Several of us here in Florida, USA who have the XS monowheels, installed
the speed kits looking for 10 kts advantage. However it was not to
be.When we tried to get answers from the old management team as to why
this large difference in speed, we sure got the Run Around.....
I know in some of the advertisements the old Europa Co. was (is)
advertising 200 MPH cruise speeds for the XS series. I don't know anyone
who is getting that kind of speed. Once again put it down to
manufactures advertising hype.
Jim Brown
N398JB
----- Original Message -----
From: Remi Guerner
To: Europa-List Digest Server
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 3:23 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
The installation of my speed kit is now completed and I made some
speed measurements today. The results are as follows:
Without the speed kit, June 2006: altitude FL75, OAT 10 degrees C,
that is density altitude 8500 ft, full throttle, 5000 RPM, that is
approx 60 percent power, TAS 133 kts.
Same day, same conditions except 4800 RPM, that is approx 55 percent
power, TAS 130 kts.
With the speed kit today: altitude FL75, OAT 11 degrees C, full
throttle, 5000 RPM, TAS 135 kts.
Same conditions except 4800 RPM, TAS 134 kts.
Conclusion: the speed gain is in the 2 to 4 knots range.
All flights were with full fuel, no passenger. Estimated weight:
520kg. All 11 speed kit fairings installed. True airspeed was computed
using the GPS 3 segments method.
Best regards
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 526 hours
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Except maybe Dennis Vories :
http://www.generalaviationnews.com/editorial/articledetail.lasso?-token.key=5704&-token.src=column&-nothing
who claims even faster speeds up high (per a now deleted kitplanes radio
interview) with his intercooled 914 w/whirlwind
Cheers,
Pete
A239 - still apile of parts
On 9/20/07, jim Brown <acrojim@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Remi
>
> I have the XS Monowheel with the 914 and Airmaster installed.
>
> Your results are about the same as what we got when I also installed the
> speed kit mod. I saw a increase of 3 knots average over several runs.
> Several of us here in Florida, USA who have the XS monowheels, installed the
> speed kits looking for 10 kts advantage. However it was not to be.When we
> tried to get answers from the old management team as to why this large
> difference in speed, we sure got the Run Around.....
>
>
> I know in some of the advertisements the old Europa Co. was (is)
> advertising 200 MPH cruise speeds for the XS series. I don't know anyone who
> is getting that kind of speed. Once again put it down to manufactures
> advertising hype.
>
> Jim Brown
> N398JB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Remi Guerner <air.guerner@wanadoo.fr>
> *To:* Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 13, 2007 3:23 PM
> *Subject:* Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
>
>
> The installation of my speed kit is now completed and I made some speed
> measurements today. The results are as follows:
>
> Without the speed kit, June 2006: altitude FL75, OAT 10 degrees C, that is
> density altitude 8500 ft, full throttle, 5000 RPM, that is approx 60 percent
> power, TAS 133 kts.
>
> Same day, same conditions except 4800 RPM, that is approx 55 percent
> power, TAS 130 kts.
>
>
> With the speed kit today: altitude FL75, OAT 11 degrees C, full throttle,
> 5000 RPM, TAS 135 kts.
>
> Same conditions except 4800 RPM, TAS 134 kts.
>
>
> Conclusion: the speed gain is in the 2 to 4 knots range.
>
>
> All flights were with full fuel, no passenger. Estimated weight: 520kg. All
> 11 speed kit fairings installed. True airspeed was computed using the GPS 3
> segments method.
>
> Best regards
>
>
> Remi Guerner
>
> F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 912S, Airmaster, 526 hours
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Europa for heavy boys |
Exactly!
I was flying w my friend 13,5 hrs
to the Endelave Fly-inn in Denmark
and back to Finland during 3+ days.
He is a big boy and his height
is 195 cm /77". My Europa is profiled
for me (175 cm) and P2 seat for my wife (172 cm).
We took the seat away and this brave man sat
whole trip on the on the plywood sheat only you know.
His rear parts and back were quite stressed
and he promised me to have some
surgical operations like shorten his spine
before next summer=B4s scheduled adventures.
This is only to get some leather and temper
foam under.
Must be wonderful to sit on Europa=B4s P2 seat!
Wishes, Raimo
========
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT Europa XS Mono #417,
The Experimental of The Year in Finland
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
----- Original Message -----
From: Hans J. Danielsen
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa for heavy boys
A good answer to this problem is to modify the human body itself!
Hans # 334. (Not flying do to loss of medical)
----- Original Message -----
From: UVTReith@aol.com
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:41 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Europa for heavy boys
Hi Friends,
There is somebody who would like to buy a Tri-Gear kit but he is a
really imposant boy.
145 kg x 183 cm
I guess, in this case some Mod's are necessary:
Mod 64: High Top - do I need that with 183 cm ?!?
Mod 24: Modification to increase seat width - this is especially
good for more "bum space"
Mod 67: Cockpit width increase (now standard with new kits)
Bubble typ door windows ? They do not like really nice, do they?
I think, that is all we could do or have I missed something.
Maybe some of you have some more ideas?
Best Regards,
Bruno
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
> I saw a increase of 3 knots average over several runs. Several of us
> here in Florida, USA who have the XS monowheels, installed the speed
> kits-looking for 10 kts advantage.-However it was not to be.
Though visually attractive, I've had my doubts about the mono speed kit.
For example, the flap hinge fairings have a large frontal area and are
open at the rear, neither characteristic will IMHO reduce drag. In my
spare moments I'm working on very narrow FG wrapped balsa skirts which
slip over the hinge plates and fit w/ minor FG moldings at both the
pivot point and wing surface intersection. I'll post pixs when I have
something fitted.
I suspect the biggest source of drag not addressed by the mono SK is
that of the main wheel and wheel well, something which Alex Bowman has
a handle on and shown on pixs posted at:
www.europaowners.orgmodules.php?set_albumName=album149&id=DSCN0096&op
=mo
dload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
The exposed outrigger wheel is a source of drag which the speed kit
fairing doesn't address. Here are some pixs of a fully enclosed
outrigger which has a spring loaded afterbody which hinges up when
flaps are deployed; airstream on mini-tailplane locks it back down when
flaps are raised...this is a prototype not yet tested in flight...(hey,
we're building experimental aircraft, are we not?)
Fred
A194
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found in the
engine cowl area. Closing off the gills would be the first thing (they
add no value to the plane). Second would be to clean up the radiator
opening and following duct, it is too large for the size of this engine
and is rather messy. Then clean up the radiator exit, it is very messy
back there. We carefully installed the Kim Prout main gear fairings and
saw ZERO improvement in cruise speed, which leads me to believe that the
lower cowl exit is so turbulent that fairing in the main gear (or even
retracting it) has little value. A magazine flight test on the Europa
motor glider reported that there was no improvement in glide performance
gear up vs gear down, which further supports my suspicion on the cowl
problems.
regards,
Terry Seaver
N135TD, XS mono-wheel with 912S.
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
I saw a increase of 3 knots average over several runs. Several
of us here in Florida, USA who have the XS monowheels, installed the
speed kits looking for 10 kts advantage. However it was not to be.
Though visually attractive, I've had my doubts about the mono speed kit.
For example, the flap hinge fairings have a large frontal area and are
open at the rear, neither characteristic will IMHO reduce drag. In my
spare moments I'm working on very narrow FG wrapped balsa skirts which
slip over the hinge plates and fit w/ minor FG moldings at both the
pivot point and wing surface intersection. I'll post pixs when I have
something fitted.
I suspect the biggest source of drag not addressed by the mono SK is
that of the main wheel and wheel well, something which Alex Bowman has a
handle on and shown on pixs posted at:
www.europaowners.orgmodules.php?set_albumName=album149&id=DSCN0096&op
=mo
dload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
The exposed outrigger wheel is a source of drag which the speed kit
fairing doesn't address. Here are some pixs of a fully enclosed
outrigger which has a spring loaded afterbody which hinges up when flaps
are deployed; airstream on mini-tailplane locks it back down when flaps
are raised...this is a prototype not yet tested in flight...(hey, we're
building experimental aircraft, are we not?)
Fred
A194
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Thanks Remi
I just forgot those fairings for
flap cross tube pivots - I have them.
I have had some thoughts to make
fore and aft fairings for mainwheel
but probably they would be useful
only for visual appearance.
The fairings are just bolted at the specified attach points plus using
one screw from the aileron bellcranck inspection plate.
Good idea.
Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: Remi Guerner
To: Europa-List Digest Server
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:44 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
Hi Raimo,
I confirm the speed kit supplied by the factory includes eleven
fairings: 2 for the outrigger mechanism, 4 for the flap hinges, 2 for
the flap cross tube pivots, 2 for the outrigger wheels and one for the
tailwheel. I managed to install the outrigger mechanism fairing without
gluing it as I wanted to be able to remove it easily for inspection. The
fairings are just bolted at the specified attach points plus using one
screw from the aileron bellcranck inspection plate. I had to reshape the
fairing flanges using a heat gun to get an acceptable fit.
Remi
My mono is far away and
cannot verify how many
fairings I have. I can remember
four of them /wing and just one
around tail wheel. That means 9 pcs.
Just wonder where are two extra.
Around main wheel? I have not...why?
How did you install the fairing around the
outrigger mechanism? I did as per
instructions + soft glued it to the
down surface of the wing just to keep
it clean and nice. Just wonder how
often I should remove it to make
some service and spring check of
the mechanism. I would like to hope
they last forever w/o service...
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Terry,
I totally agree w/ your comments on the standard cowl...Did you check
out Bowman's fairing? Alex's cowl of course removes the cooling air
exit from factoring in to potential drag reduction of a main gear
fairing.
Fred
On Thursday, September 20, 2007, at 02:39 PM, Terry Seaver (terrys)
wrote:
> I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found in
> the engine cowl area.- Closing off the gills would be the first thing
> (they add no value to the plane).- Second would be to clean up the
> radiator opening and following duct, it is too large for the size of
> this engine and is-rather messy.- Then clean up the radiator exit, it
> is very messy back there.- We carefully installed the Kim Prout main
> gear fairings and saw ZERO improvement in cruise speed, which leads me
> to believe that the lower cowl exit is so turbulent that fairing in
> the main gear (or even retracting it) has little value.--A
> magazine-flight test on the Europa motor glider reported that there
> was no improvement in glide performance gear up vs gear down, which
> further supports my suspicion on the cowl problems.
> -
> regards,
> Terry Seaver
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or flutter?
On 20 Sep 2007, at 19:16, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> <asarangan@yahoo.com>
>
> Vne is not always an airframe limitation. Under FAR 23.33 (U.S. regs),
> the propeller speed should remain within 110% of the max rpm at Vne. I
> know that the Diamond Katana aircraft had such a Vne. It had
> nothing to
> do with the airframe. Also, experimentals do not have to comply with
> Part 23, and for that matter, I don't think there is any
> requirement to
> even have a Vne.
>
> Even in the case of airframe-limited Vne, it may not be a load factor
> limit. The 3.8G someone else mentioned is for Va. Vne could be, for
> example, the speed at which the windows blow out; or the antennas get
> ripped out. It may have little to do with wing loading.
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Terry
I suspect you are right. If an O-360 Lycoming can be cooled with an
inlet area of only 14 square inches why does it take the same (aprox) to
cool a Rotax?
Graham
Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:
> I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found in the
> engine cowl area. Closing off the gills would be the first thing (they
> add no value to the plane). Second would be to clean up the radiator
> opening and following duct, it is too large for the size of this engine
> and is rather messy. Then clean up the radiator exit, it is very messy
> back there. We carefully installed the Kim Prout main gear fairings and
> saw ZERO improvement in cruise speed, which leads me to believe that the
> lower cowl exit is so turbulent that fairing in the main gear (or even
> retracting it) has little value. A magazine flight test on the Europa
> motor glider reported that there was no improvement in glide performance
> gear up vs gear down, which further supports my suspicion on the cowl
> problems.
>
> regards,
> Terry Seaver
> N135TD, XS mono-wheel with 912S.
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Europa for heavy boys |
I'm not quite so heavy: 100 Kilos, but even taller: 190.5 cm.
So far, I'm hoping to fit in a Europa under construction on Reno.
Rick
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