Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:03 AM - Re: Dive to Vne (josok)
2. 06:23 AM - Re: Dive to Vne (craig bastin)
3. 06:26 AM - Re: Dive to VNE (Richard Pottorff)
4. 08:33 AM - Drag reduction (Fergus Kyle)
5. 09:40 AM - wing upper skin fitting (Rowland & Wilma Carson)
6. 11:12 AM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
7. 11:55 AM - Tailplane integrity suggestion (G&TPowell)
8. 12:15 PM - Outriggers - Lockin (Paul McAllister)
9. 12:32 PM - Trailering a monowheel (Paul McAllister)
10. 12:42 PM - Re: Trailering a monowheel (Jeff B)
11. 01:03 PM - Re: Outriggers - Lockin (Andrew Sarangan)
12. 01:15 PM - Re: Tailplane integrity suggestion (Fred Klein)
13. 01:18 PM - Re: Outriggers - Lockin (Fred Klein)
14. 01:52 PM - Re: Tailplane integrity suggestion (craig bastin)
15. 02:15 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in Saturday 22nd September (tony.bale@virgin.net)
16. 03:14 PM - Re: Outriggers - Lockin (Michel AUVRAY)
17. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Dive to VNE (Graham Singleton)
Message 1
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Craigh,
It is a gross misunderstanding that anybody should be worried about flutter, VNE
etc. The Europa is a wonderfull design, and is better tested then most kit planes.
I thind we are under-appreciating the lot of work that Ivan and his friends
have put in to it. After that, the type has tens of thousands of flying hours
without any structural problem. Most of that worrying seems te be done by
folks who are not flying their plane yet. Don't! Enjoy the build, and you will
enjoy the result. Your sign-off makes me frown, you can fly today if you want,
rent-a-plane or so. Don't hurry the build, it leads to frustration, and you
will finish building before the plane is ready.:-)
Computer modelling is fine, maybe there are areas where improvement is possible.
But i doubt it will return anything usefull for the money.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 2
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Thanks for the reply, as far as my post goes, I have no problems with flying
at VNE, When i did my licence it was mostly in a Piper Tomahawk, most tomies
are slow and predictable except for the stall, (I flew a few different ones)
but the main one had a different prop and would run through VNE in cruise
flight if you didnt watch it, which IMHO was a good thing as it meant you
had to slow down to VA if things got bumpy, so it taught you be concious of
your airspeed at all times, not just takeoff landing etc. My main reason
for suggesting the modeling was to maybe see if the VNE could be increased
at reduced MTOW. Sort of working backwards from the ultimate load of 8.55g
suggested by europa at the standard MTOW of 1300 or 1370 a reduction of
about
40 lbs would seem to suggest a new ultimate load of 9.0 g which is what is
required for a full aerobatic rating in australia of 6.0g (+50% safety
margin) which would intern mean an increase in VNE provided no flutter
issues
are a problem, which is where the computer modeling comes in. As far as the
signoff goes, dont get me wrong I am enjoying the build, seeing it grow, and
getting satisfaction from each bit i finish, but all my spare cash goes into
the plane so flying for the moment is not happening, thats why i wish it was
built, especially when we get a day thats almost calm with unlimited vis
and temps in the 20's it makes me want to be up there.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of josok
Sent: Saturday, 22 September 2007 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Dive to Vne
Craigh,
It is a gross misunderstanding that anybody should be worried about flutter,
VNE etc. The Europa is a wonderfull design, and is better tested then most
kit planes. I thind we are under-appreciating the lot of work that Ivan and
his friends have put in to it. After that, the type has tens of thousands of
flying hours without any structural problem. Most of that worrying seems te
be done by folks who are not flying their plane yet. Don't! Enjoy the build,
and you will enjoy the result. Your sign-off makes me frown, you can fly
today if you want, rent-a-plane or so. Don't hurry the build, it leads to
frustration, and you will finish building before the plane is ready.:-)
Computer modelling is fine, maybe there are areas where improvement is
possible. But i doubt it will return anything usefull for the money.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
2:02 PM
2:02 PM
Message 3
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There was a Wind Tunnel column in Kit Planes magazine a few months ago
about Vne. The upshot was that you don't use indicated or calibrated
airspeed to determine Vne. You use TAS. For those of you who have to
dive to Vne, if you do your calculations ahead of time, and start high
enough, you could actually reach Vne well before you exceed the
structural cruising speed.
Vne is concerned with the actual speed of the air molecules hitting the
control surfaces, not the number of air molecules that hit the airplane
per second.
Hope this helps.
Message 4
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Cheers,
I have a nagging thought to offer. Having experienced the external
mods on a nymber of different machines, it occurred to me to mention that
one may want to have a confab with the designer concerning the change in
sidereal area of the mainwheel drag reduction. I intended to do that but
want to fly her basic first for comparison later.
A number of ahead-of-CoG mods made a big difference in the spin
characteristics, partricularly after the third rotation - that's one
advantage of the Europa - a demonstrated 12-turn spin in each direction - a
rare event. Note the ventral strakes on an F16. These have been called Lawn
Darts in the past.
We don't want someone trying to screw a EUPA into the back garden
from 13,000 feet.
Ferg
Message 5
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| Subject: | wing upper skin fitting |
Having had the internals of my starboard wing successfully inspected,
I'm getting ready to close it up. I offered up the upper rear wing
skin and noticed a few oddities.
First, the skin appears to be longer than required and it seems that
the tip end should be trimmed - there is a 5mm gap between it and the
tip moulding at the spar, if the TE is butted up. Also, in that
position the brown foam doubler doesn't clear the root rib. Thus it
seems pretty clear that the skin should be fitted with the root end
flush with the root rib flange, and the tip end trimmed to fit the
tip moulding.
I had to remove a small area of brown foam on the bottom skin, and
add a BID patch over the area, to accomodate my outboard horn box
(the aileron horn positions didn't quite match the wing mouldings)
and I will have to do the same with the upper skin, so it's not
sitting quite right yet. However, I noticed another reason for the
poor fit at the TE.
When looking at the underside of the top skin in the horn box
regions, I noticed artifacts that look like lines of resin proud of
the skin surface. They are about 1mm thick and run along close to the
TE, symmetrically disposed about each cutaway in the brown foam for
the horn-box, for about 130mm (inner) or 150mm (outer) with, at each
end, a line at right-angles forward towards the brown foam.
It almost looks as though something rectangular was pressed against
the undersurface of the skin during cure, forcing excess resin out to
its edges. Might even have been a T-shaped thing fitting into the
horn-box cutaways.
Questions:
(1) Are these excresences supposed to be there? (And if so what
purpose do they serve?)
(2) If they shouldn't be there, is it OK just to rub them down flush
with the surrounding area? (If I don't rub them down, it'll be hard
to abrade the area within the lines for the Redux bond.)
If no-one here has any prior art on this problem (I suspect not, as a
search of my archives failed to bring up anything drectly relevant)
I'll call Roger at the factory after the weekend.
(3) An additional query - my manual says the top skin is to be glued
on with a Redux-flox mixture, but I can find no suggestions about
what proportion of flox to add.
(4) And a final, possibly related thought. My inspector has suggested
bonding on the top wing skin upside-down (with appropriate jigging to
apply pressure to the joint areas) so that any Redux that squidges
out under pressure cannot fall onto the aileron controls, etc, but
instead forms a fillet at the edge of all the joints. I had forgotten
when discussing this with him about the flox - maybe that would make
it thick enough to avoid any tendency to drip?
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson PFA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 800 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
<<Closing off the gills would be the first thing (they add no value to the
plane). >>
I tried that.
It made no difference to CHT, oil or water temps. But why would it; those
systems are cooled independently to what goes on under the cowl.
However, (with the 912S air shroud fitted) the cylinder wall temperatures
went up SUBSTANTIALLY. So much so that I could easily believe that on a hot
day and an extended full power climbout they would quickly exceed the
maximum permitted (190C). Fortunately, I never experienced that
configuration before finding out this.
By closing the gills, 'competition' for cowl exit area is increased.
On the other hand, the temparature of the alternator regultator didn't seem
to be affected at all.
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Seaver (terrys)
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found in the
engine cowl area. Closing off the gills would be the first thing (they add
no value to the plane). Second would be to clean up the radiator opening
and following duct, it is too large for the size of this engine and is
rather messy. Then clean up the radiator exit, it is very messy back there.
We carefully installed the Kim Prout main gear fairings and saw ZERO
improvement in cruise speed, which leads me to believe that the lower cowl
exit is so turbulent that fairing in the main gear (or even retracting it)
has little value. A magazine flight test on the Europa motor glider
reported that there was no improvement in glide performance gear up vs gear
down, which further supports my suspicion on the cowl problems.
regards,
Terry Seaver
N135TD, XS mono-wheel with 912S.
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
I saw a increase of 3 knots average over several runs. Several of us here in
Florida, USA who have the XS monowheels, installed the speed kits looking
for 10 kts advantage. However it was not to be.
Though visually attractive, I've had my doubts about the mono speed kit.
For example, the flap hinge fairings have a large frontal area and are open
at the rear, neither characteristic will IMHO reduce drag. In my spare
moments I'm working on very narrow FG wrapped balsa skirts which slip over
the hinge plates and fit w/ minor FG moldings at both the pivot point and
wing surface intersection. I'll post pixs when I have something fitted.
I suspect the biggest source of drag not addressed by the mono SK is that of
the main wheel and wheel well, something which Alex Bowman has a handle on
and shown on pixs posted at:
www.europaowners.orgmodules.php?set_albumName=album149&id=DSCN0096&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
The exposed outrigger wheel is a source of drag which the speed kit fairing
doesn't address. Here are some pixs of a fully enclosed outrigger which has
a spring loaded afterbody which hinges up when flaps are deployed; airstream
on mini-tailplane locks it back down when flaps are raised...this is a
prototype not yet tested in flight...(hey, we're building experimental
aircraft, are we not?)
Fred
A194
Message 7
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| Subject: | Tailplane integrity suggestion |
I received several responses to my post a few days ago concerning the binding problem
I am having with my torque tube (i.e., inability to fit into TP6 bushing).
Phil advised that early versions of TP4 and the bushes were ground to match
each other, rather that to standard drawing dimensions. I tried the other
TP4 I have (the one installed on the plane) and it fit better, actually allowing
me to get the starboard tailplane all the way on TP4 on the shop bench and
seated into the TP13 bushes.
Unfortunately, I cannot get the tailplane on when TP4 is mounted on the fuselage,
it is so tight. When I checked the port tailplane (and opened up the surface
to reveal the TP6 bushing) it was clear on visual inspection that the TP6 was
out of alignment by at least a millimeter. (These tailplanes were purchased
from a charity which obtained them from an estate, so I do not know the provenance
of the construction).
I will definitely have to remove/reseat the TP6 bushing on the port tailplane,
and probably the starboard as well.
A thought occurred to me: why not have a tube machined that is one piece, the
length from TP5 inboard to TP6 outboard and replacing both those bushings, instead
of 2 bushes with space between them? Having the 2 bushes a distance apart
seems to make it likely the 2 could be installed out of alignment, whereas a
single tube/bushing could not possibly be.
Any thoughts on this suggestion? If I have to remove or reset both bushings in
both tailplanes, it seems efficient to just replace both with a single tube,
and guarantee the integrity of the tailplane retention (at least with respect
to the possible unbonding of TP6).
Also, any suggestions on the proper technique to remove the bonded-in TP6 and TP5
bushes without damaging the surrounding material would be appreciated.
Thanks,
George Powell
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 8
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| Subject: | Outriggers - Lockin |
Hi all,
Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down. As the
airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the wing off,
over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it was a
windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables.
So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I know
some people have fitted them in the past.
Paul
Message 9
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| Subject: | Trailering a monowheel |
Hi all,
I need to trailer my mono wheel about 80 miles on a standard mono
wheel trailer. I rarely trailer my aircraft and the longest distance
I have taken it on my trailer is probably 5 miles.
Could some of the more seasoned folks give me a few tips I need to
consider when I trailer mine.
Thanks, Paul
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a monowheel |
Paul, Nice and slow... ;)
Jeff - Baby Blue
329 hours
Paul McAllister wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I need to trailer my mono wheel about 80 miles on a standard mono
> wheel trailer. I rarely trailer my aircraft and the longest distance
> I have taken it on my trailer is probably 5 miles.
>
> Could some of the more seasoned folks give me a few tips I need to
> consider when I trailer mine.
>
> Thanks, Paul
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Outriggers - Lockin |
Paul
Sorry to hear about this incident. I will take your advice and install
microswitches on the outriggers. How does the airmaster governor handle
a prop strike? Does it have to be checked/serviced too?
--- Paul McAllister <paul.mcallister@qia.net> wrote:
> <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down.
> As the
> airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the
> wing off,
> over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it
> was a
> windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables.
>
> So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I
> know
> some people have fitted them in the past.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane integrity suggestion |
On Saturday, September 22, 2007, at 11:54 AM, G&TPowell wrote:
> A thought occurred to me: why not have a tube machined that is one
> piece, the length from TP5 inboard to TP6 outboard and replacing both
> those bushings, instead of 2 bushes with space between them? Having
> the 2 bushes a distance apart seems to make it likely the 2 could be
> installed out of alignment, whereas a single tube/bushing could not
> possibly be.
Go for it George...yu da man!
Your thought has been advocated in the past and installed by some...at
least a variant there on.
Fred
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| Subject: | Re: Outriggers - Lockin |
Sorry to hear of your mishap Paul...Ouch! If you can determine
probable cause it would be much appreciated,
Fred
> <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down.
>
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Tailplane integrity suggestion |
<<A thought occurred to me: why not have a tube machined that is one piece,
the length from TP5 inboard to TP6 outboard and replacing both those
bushings, instead of 2 bushes with space between them? Having the 2 bushes
a distance apart seems to make it likely the 2 could be installed out of
alignment, whereas a single tube/bushing could not possibly be. >>
Yep I did exactly that, during construction I could see all the discussion
going on about tp6 i though it wasnt worth the stress, so down to the metal
shop found a 1m length of tube with an ID .08 of a mm different than the
tp6 ID it did have a thicker wall than original so a small countersink in
the
top allowed the pip pin to lock fully. I also having the extra length ran
the
tube into the outer foam core about 100mm or so. I epoxied the tube into the
inner foam, did the rib layup then coated the "excess" tube in epoxy and
slid
that into the outer, then glass as normal. It seems to work nicely, slides
on and off easily, no risk of damage to tp6 etc.
craig
2:02 PM
Message 15
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| Subject: | Laddingford Fly-in Saturday 22nd September |
David,
Just a quick thank you for todays fly-in. Excellent do, very well
organised, you must have been pleased with the turnout, would love to know
how you booked the weather !!
Looking forward to the next one.
ATB
Tony
G-CCUL.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: David Watts dg.watts@talktalk.net
Subject: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in Saturday 22nd September
Hi all,
just a short reminder that this coming Saturday is the annual Laddingford
Fly-in.
At the moment the forecasts for the weekend look really good ( at least
down this way).
In years gone by we usually have a really good turnout, with up to 20
Europas in attendance plus many other aircraft. We have already got a head
start this year with 5 Europas in the hangar at the present time.
We will be using the safety com frequency 135.475 with circuits at 1000ft
to the north if we are using the 750 mtr. 11 / 29 runway (to the east in
the unlikey event of using the 450 mtr. 03 / 21). It is likely to be busy
so keep a good lookout. The runway at around the midpoint has become a
little bit bumpy with the mostly dry weather that we have had down this way
throughout the summer, so keep your eye on that, but the aerodrome is
manicured to its usual impecable standard.
We will have a barbecue for everybody who comes (small donation asked for,
that goes to the air ambulance after costs).
We shall be giving pleasure flights to anybody that we can force in to the
cockpits, so if you would like to help out with that then let us know on
the day.
Here's looking forward to another excellent day,
Dave Watts
Europa Classic G-BXDY
Laddingford Aerodrome Manager
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Outriggers - Lockin |
Hi Paul,
I remember my 3th or 4th flight I have the same problem, the outrigger don't
deploy and secure his position. During landing there is no problem at the
end of the rolling the left wing have tendancy to down. I stop on the left
side os the runway, and descending of the aircraft , deploy and secure the
outrigger and restart. But no ground loop. After that I check and adjust the
outrigger mechanism. But after that incident, in flight I take the habitude,
after the gear down to rock the wings right to left and sometimes I heard
the outrigger lock by gravity. (Sorry for my poor English)
Michel AUVRAY
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]De la part de Paul
McAllister
Envoy : samedi 22 septembre 2007 21:13
: europa-list@matronics.com
Objet : Europa-List: Outriggers - Lockin
<paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Hi all,
Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down. As the
airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the wing off,
over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it was a
windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables.
So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I know
some people have fitted them in the past.
Paul
Message 17
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Not exactly Richard,
The main issue is mass times velocity squared, so it's both speed and
number of molecules
Viscocity comes into it too becaues flutter is a resonance issue.
Graham
Richard Pottorff wrote:
>
> Vne is concerned with the actual speed of the air molecules hitting the
> control surfaces, not the number of air molecules that hit the airplane
> per second.
>
>
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