Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:43 AM - Laddingford Fly-in (David Watts)
2. 01:50 AM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (josok)
3. 01:58 AM - Re: Aileron lenght (josok)
4. 03:31 AM - Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (R.C.Harrison)
5. 03:31 AM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (R.C.Harrison)
6. 04:42 AM - Re: Outriggers - Lockin (RoddyEuropa@aol.com)
7. 05:07 AM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (josok)
8. 05:19 AM - Re: Outriggers - Lockin (Karl Heindl)
9. 06:02 AM - More on VNE (Richard Pottorff)
10. 06:28 AM - Re: Speed increase with aft CG (William Harrison)
11. 06:47 AM - Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll (Fergus Kyle)
12. 07:40 AM - Re: Drag reduction (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
13. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Drag reduction (Gilles Thesee)
14. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: Drag reduction (Graham Singleton)
15. 08:40 AM - a gamechanger! (Fred Klein)
16. 09:04 AM - Re: a gamechanger! (Gilles Thesee)
17. 10:03 AM - Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (Carl Pattinson)
18. 10:32 AM - Re: More on VNE (europa flugzeug fabrik)
19. 10:33 AM - Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (josok)
20. 11:36 AM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in (Steve Pitt)
21. 11:42 AM - Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (Mark Burton)
22. 12:10 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in (steve v)
23. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: More on VNE (Andrew Sarangan)
24. 12:52 PM - Re: More on VNE (Mike Parkin)
25. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: More on VNE (Mike Parkin)
26. 01:03 PM - Re: More on VNE (europa flugzeug fabrik)
27. 01:29 PM - Re: Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll (Carl Pattinson)
28. 01:30 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in (Carl Pattinson)
29. 01:30 PM - Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (R.C.Harrison)
30. 01:31 PM - Re: More on VNE (Mark Burton)
31. 01:42 PM - Re: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (Carl Pattinson)
32. 01:45 PM - Re: More on VNE (R.C.Harrison)
33. 02:00 PM - Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (Mark Burton)
34. 02:56 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in (Carl Pattinson)
35. 03:02 PM - Re: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (Carl Pattinson)
36. 04:12 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in (steve v)
37. 04:21 PM - Re: More on VNE (Andrew Sarangan)
38. 06:12 PM - Re: More on VNE (Gilles Thesee)
39. 08:51 PM - Re: More on VNE (Fred Klein)
40. 09:08 PM - Re: More on VNE (Fred Klein)
Message 1
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Subject: | Laddingford Fly-in |
Hi all,
what a fanatastic day we had yesterday at our Laddingford Fly-in.
(Unfortunately the weather was not over the whole country and some
called to say they had tried to get down but failed).
By the end of the day we had 17 Europas in amongst 46 aircraft at the
event and all seemed to have enjoyed an excellent day amongst like
minded people.
We managed to raise around =A3400 for the Kent Air Ambulance Trust
through donations. Thank you.
Again the weather played its part and we enjoyed calm to light winds and
pleasant temperatures.
Thank you to all who attended and made all the preparation work
worthwhile.
Dave Watts
Europa G-BXDY
Laddingford Aerodrome Manager
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
My gills are closed, and while i don't have "before" experience, i can confirm
it is the cowl air exit that is restricting airflow. I have my OAT probe in the
air-inlet box, and it sees warm air, ,where it should only get air from the
NACA vent. I have the Singleton firewall, which probably reduces outlet area more
then the factory metal one. Temperatures are withing range now, but no real
hot weather experience yet. Have a 914 with a shroud!
The next thing i would like to try is to partially or completely close off the
original air-inlet openings, to reduce the amount of competing air on the outlet.
Comments please!
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Aileron lenght |
Mine were both too long, and made exactly as the Manual dictates. Nev confirmed
me that there have been some too long foam pieces around. On his advice i cut
them to the right lenght, outboard side, dug out foam and made nice new ends.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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Subject: | Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
Hi! All
In part to be viewed in reply to Jos Okhuijsen's message re-Rotax 914
cooling .
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link
attachments:
IMG_0410 G-PTAG front view off centre port side new Rotax/Europa cowls
with modified Cooling air intakes.
IMG_0411 G-PTAG front view off centre starboard side new Rotax/Europa
Cowls with modified Cooling air intakes.
Regards
Bob Harrison
Message 5
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Subject: | Monowheel speed kit |
Hi! Jos
Herewith the picture of a "splash" copy of Peter Kembers Mod for the
cowl inlet ducts which Ivor Phillips kindly produced for me.
The only beef I have at present is the tendency to overheat on a delayed
departure, but many people advise this will ease by about 50 hours on
the clock.
In the short term I'm considering "jacking" the lower cowl fixings off
the fuselage by about 1" as per my previous success with the
Jabiru/Europa Cowl.
All the top cowl gills are closed and I have an insulated "bread box"
(as described by Neville!) on the P1 footwell for the Regulator unit and
the Turbo Servo unit with some cold air bled off the cooling air duct.
In flight I've never seen the temps within the box to be more than 32
deg C with ambients around 22 deg C but without the water and oil check
flaps open on shut down the temps in this box do rise to in the region
of 40 deg C.
Due to my incapability with shifting files about I'm sending on further
pictures re. this message under another separate message !
Hopefully this is constructive help in the cooling debate?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok
Sent: 23 September 2007 09:49
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit
My gills are closed, and while i don't have "before" experience, i can
confirm it is the cowl air exit that is restricting airflow. I have my
OAT probe in the air-inlet box, and it sees warm air, ,where it should
only get air from the NACA vent. I have the Singleton firewall, which
probably reduces outlet area more then the factory metal one.
Temperatures are withing range now, but no real hot weather experience
yet. Have a 914 with a shroud!
The next thing i would like to try is to partially or completely close
off the original air-inlet openings, to reduce the amount of competing
air on the outlet. Comments please!
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Outriggers - Lockin |
When I tested my outriggers locking, the the aircraft jacked up on the
ground, they worked fine. But I think they only locked when I slowed below the
gear retraction speed - I heard a distinct knock which I assume was the locking
taking place when the aircraft slowed to near approach speed. I believe the
drag at higher speed was keeping the outriggers held back and only when the
speed reduced did gravity kick in and they locked.
So, I would recommend checking that they lock down on the ground with some
back pressure on the outriggers - I attached a bungee to the outrigger wheel
and pulled it back during the ground test. Sure enough, no locking until the
back pressure was reduced. Once adjusted all working fine and no problems
since.
Roddy Kesterton
G-IKRK
In a message dated 22/09/2007 20:16:20 GMT Standard Time,
paul.mcallister@qia.net writes:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister"
<paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Hi all,
Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down. As the
airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the wing off,
over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it was a
windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables.
So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I know
some people have fitted them in the past.
Paul
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Monowheel speed kit |
Thanks Bob,
Most helpful, the pictures came through good as well. The change on the bottom
cowl certainly looks good. Makes me think: What about doing away with that tunnel
altogether, and only have something like a boxed radiator on the bottom? It
would bring back the beautiful classic look, probably reduce drag, and still
having more air flowing through the radiator(s). Comments please :-)
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Outriggers - Lockin |
>From: RoddyEuropa@aol.com
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outriggers - Lockin
>Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 07:41:03 EDT
>
>
>When I tested my outriggers locking, the the aircraft jacked up on the
>ground, they worked fine. But I think they only locked when I slowed below
>the
>gear retraction speed - I heard a distinct knock which I assume was the
>locking
>taking place when the aircraft slowed to near approach speed. I believe
>the
>drag at higher speed was keeping the outriggers held back and only when
>the
>speed reduced did gravity kick in and they locked.
>
>So, I would recommend checking that they lock down on the ground with some
>back pressure on the outriggers - I attached a bungee to the outrigger
>wheel
>and pulled it back during the ground test. Sure enough, no locking until
>the
>back pressure was reduced. Once adjusted all working fine and no problems
>since.
>
>Roddy Kesterton
>G-IKRK
>
>In a message dated 22/09/2007 20:16:20 GMT Standard Time,
>paul.mcallister@qia.net writes:
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister"
><paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
>Hi all,
>
>Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down. As
>the
>airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the wing
>off,
>over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it was
>a
>windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables.
>
>So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I know
>some people have fitted them in the past.
>
>Paul
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get Pimped! FREE emoticon packs from Windows Live -
http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk
Message 9
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|
At the risk of inciting a religious war, I found site backing up my
previous claim that VNE is dependent on TAS not IAS nor CAS:
http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/flutter.html<http://www.auf.asn.au/gro
undschool/flutter.html>
13.2 Standard airspeed limitations<>
If Vne is expressed in terms of true airspeed then its value remains the
same no matter what the [density] altitude. However though indicated
airspeed reflects dynamic pressure it understates the true airspeed so
if the structural limitations which define Vne for an aircraft type are
particularly associated with the distribution of forces associated with
flow velocity then the specified Vne as an indicated airspeed has to be
decreased as altitude is increased - to adjust it to the true airspeed,
which latter is about 1.5% greater than IAS/CAS for every 1000 feet of
altitude, see rule of thumb
#2<http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule2.html#cas_tas>.
For most light aircraft it is reasonable that only one Vne is specified
in the Pilot's Operating Handbook or Flight Manual and that value may
have been calculated for a 'normal' cruising altitude, say 5000 feet,
rather than ISA mean sea level.
If uncertain about a particular aircraft multiply the (density)
altitude, in 1000s of feet, by a factor of 1.5 to get the percentage
DECREASE to apply to the specified Vne for a corrected Vne appropriate
to the altitude. For example if altitude is 8000 feet and specified Vne
is 100 knots then 8[000] =D7 1.5 = 12%. Corrected Vne = 88% of 100
= 88 knots IAS/CAS.
Table 1 is a normal calculation of corrected Vne, you can see that the
difference between the 140 knots specified and the corrected Vne is
significant and that it appears quite possible for turbocharged low drag
aircraft to exceed corrected Vne in level flight at higher altitudes.
Vne as a maximum airspeed applies only for smooth atmospheric conditions
and for gentle control movements; even vertical gusts associated with
mild turbulence or control movements greater than say 25% travel will
lead to some nasty surprises, if operating close to but below Vne. At
such high speed the controls are very effective with a high possibility
for over-control applying extreme loads to the structures and some
aircraft control systems provide an inadequate feedback of the load
being exerted i.e. a high load can be applied with a relatively low
stick force..
Be aware: deliberately exceeding Vne is the realm of the test pilot -
who always wears a parachute!
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Speed increase with aft CG |
Certainly a lot less than 5kts difference on mine at 1370 (although I
haven't been too scientific about this).
Willie H
On 21 Sep 2007, at 22:29, <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
<rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
>
> Anyone have any numbers for speed increase with aft CG versus
> frward CG?
>
> How about a guess for speed increase 1370 or 1450 AUW 61" CG versus
> 59"?
>
> (+50 Knots, +5 Knots, +.5 Knots)??
>
> How about a guess for increase 1370 AUW 62.5" CG versus 59"?
>
> Thx.
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll |
Paul,
I have trailered my plane and bits several times account bedroom
squeeze at home and have had some damage.
[1] The rubber slings mar the wing badly. Produce some heavy polythene
plastic (6mil) pieces 8"x80" and folded lengthwise to cover the slings and
prevent old rubber marking the wings;
[2] Cover the pip-pins locking the slings in place (at the bottom) with
heavy foam to prevent the road bumps from banging the leading edge into the
pins - very work-making repair;
[2A] Duck tape soft foam bundles to the inside top edge of the sling
frames to prevent damage to the fuselage sides, as I haven't been able to
stop SOME motion of the fuselage nearby;
[3] Initially inspect the slings for deterioration (mine were ten years
old) and cracking, because if they let go the wing drops onto the pin. (The
permanent fix is to redrill the pin holes to one side - out of the way);
[4] Use long bungee cords to hold the wings down into the slings - this
will prevent excess bobbing on the bumps;
[5] I have not found any cover for the trailer which won't flap somehow
and damage a delicate finish - choose a good day, and stay off the stones,
sand;
[6] Use inner tubes elastics or short bungees over the bolt ends to
clamp the outriggers vertical and fabricate two (or four) vee-shaped sheets
to slip over the aileron ends to prevent motion;
[7] Depending on speed, fabricate a 3- or 4-layer fibreglass loop shaped
to prevent the rudder from flapping (it's out front). This also stops the
tailwheel from shimmying in the lock and the fuselage from side-to-side
wander;
[8] If you must trailer in poor conditions, make some soft funnels to
cover the wing trailing edge root corners to prevent inevitable cover holes
from flapping. Same for tip trailing edges.
[9] Use some form of pulley to double the draw of the tailwheel tightly
enough to lock the mainwheel up easily. Mine requires some compression of
the main tire to seat that tail properly.
[10] If it's first time, you will want to ensure the mainwheel 'bucket'
folds up outside and against the gearswing arm as tight clearances there
assure vertical state of the fuselage. It marks but who cares?
My personal experience is that 40 bungees is not too many a number to stop
flapping.
There's always an excuse for one more...........
Hope that helps
Ferg
PS: I modified the spar boxes on the trailer so that they clamp securely to
the spare on both sides - one is built to accommodate the spar 'tunnel' in
the heavyweight mod.
Don't use the stab pipes - I'm still trying to rescue a plastic pipe end
from inside a stab. Hope you saved the foam forms the stabs came in - ideal
holders.
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Drag reduction |
In a message dated 9/23/2007 2:58:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list@matronics.com writes:
I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found in the
engine cowl area. Closing off the gills would be the first thing (they add
no value to the plane). Second would be to clean up the radiator opening
and following duct, it is too large for the size of this engine and is
rather messy. Then clean up the radiator exit, it is very messy back there.
Hi Terry,
Or, you could install a Jab and do away with the radiator, gills and the
stock, stubby Europa cowl altogether.
The 1800+ fpm climb rate I'm regularly seeing with my Jab is nothing to
sneeze at, nor is the $10,000 lower price over the 912S.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - 115 hours and going strong (and soon to be much faster, too)
Do Not Archive
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Drag reduction |
John,
> you could install a Jab and do away with the radiator, gills and the
> stock, stubby Europa cowl altogether.
Of course an aircooled engine doesn't need a coolant radiator, but the
cooling needs are about the same !
Due to aerodynamic and thermodynamic considerations, an air-cooled
engine will always drag a little more than its liquid-cooled
counterpart. That is provided the cooling installation is equallly well
designed in both cases.
Concerning the Europa cowl, I agree with you it seems in need of some
aerodynamical improvements ;-)
>
> The 1800+ fpm climb rate I'm regularly seeing with my Jab is nothing
> to sneeze at, nor is the $10,000 lower price over the 912S.
Would you care to share any precise speed measurements (3 GPS runs, max
take off weight, record of altitude, OAT, etc.) ?
My Jabiru buddies are getting soooo discreet when it comes to actual
performance ;-(
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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Subject: | Re: Drag reduction |
John
I have some friends in UK with a Jab 6 who are having cooling
difficulties, would you like to copy me please when you reply to Gilles?
Graham
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 9/23/2007 2:58:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> europa-list@matronics.com writes:
>
> /I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found
> in the
> engine cowl area. Closing off the gills would be the first thing
> (they add
> no value to the plane). Second would be to clean up the radiator
> opening
> and following duct, it is too large for the size of this engine and is
> rather messy. Then clean up the radiator exit, it is very messy
> back there/.
>
>
> Hi Terry,
>
> Or, you could install a Jab and do away with the radiator, gills and the
> stock, stubby Europa cowl altogether.
>
> The 1800+ fpm climb rate I'm regularly seeing with my Jab is nothing to
> sneeze at, nor is the $10,000 lower price over the 912S.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Lawton
> Whitwell, TN (TN89)
> N245E - 115 hours and going strong (and soon to be much faster, too)
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
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|
This is a new one for me:
seats 2, 912S, stall @ 53 kts, VNE 270 kts, max. cruise @ 200 kts
Molt Taylor is vindicated!
check out: www.lhaviation.com/site_frame/bases_marges/index.htm
Fred
do not archive
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
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Subject: | Re: a gamechanger! |
Fred Klein a crit :
>
> seats 2, 912S, stall @ 53 kts, VNE 270 kts, max. cruise @ 200 kts
Hey Fred,
Considering the small wing and obviously long takeoff run, they still
have some work to make it fly so slowly. And seeing the tufts on the aft
fuselage and fin, they'll have some work to make it fly so fast.
Let's say approach at 75 and cruise at 140-150 kts with a 912S....
Quite correct, but definitely not short take off.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
Hi Bob,
I noticed your ac is fitted with the Woodcomp Scimitar blades.
What prompted your choice (presumably over the Airmaster) and how are you
finding it. Is there any noticeable improvement in performance.
Are you using the Woodcomp or the Smart cotroller.
We are currently looking to fit a replacement prop and the scimitar blade is
something of a rarity amongst Europas. In fact William Mills was the only
other one I was aware of.
Carl Pattinson
G_LABS
PS: any problem with the PFA approving the installation.
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|
Wait a minute here. The quoted cite sounds authoritative, but U.S. Regs for production
aircraft state that Vne must be marked on the ASI.
If we got enough of a turbocharger to get to like FL450, we could indicate down
near stall at max cruise velocity attainable, and contrary to what they say,
our ailerons won't be very effective at all. How can we possibly experience aileron
flutter just above stall speed?
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135910#135910
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Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
Hi Carl,
Me too, Woodcomp wit scimitar blades and reverse, Smart Avionics controller. I
like them both, and enjoy the money saved. The reverse is nice to generate surprise
on faces, backing up into a parking space. Have not tried reverse during
roll-out yet. Only concrete landings so far, it could be handy on grass and
will be handy on ice.
Since i have never flown with anything else, it's difficult to compare. Ivan Shaw
found the prop smooth and silent running. He also was not sure about it's efficiency,
but it was at engine run-in time, difficult to say. There is no vibration
at all. It came assembled and balanced. The numbers are as William once
published. At FL 125 the prop was maximum coarse, doing 135 knots indicated and
4800 on the controller. More throttle to climb a bit more resulted in more
revs to my surprise. Maybe that's to be expected?
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in |
David, Thanks to you and Peter et al for the organisation yesterday. My
son and I thoroughly enjoyed the occasion. It is what the Europa was
designed and built for. Regards to all,
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
> At FL 125 the prop was maximum coarse ... More throttle to climb a bit more resulted
in more revs to my surprise. Maybe that's to be expected?
Well, yes, if the prop is already at maximum coarse, increasing the throttle will
raise the RPM.
My own SR3000 does run out of coarse pitch in the cruise but that is due to the
coarse limit limit (!) imposed by the PFA. Other regimes may well allow the prop
to go coarser so it won't run out of pitch. A possible issue here is that
I only have the baby motor (80hp) so the +ve ROC test in fully coarse is always
going to be a bit of a struggle.
Apart from that annoyance, I find the SR3000 splendid. It's very smooth (in more
ways than one), has fantastic leading edge protection and the carbon finish
looks stunning.
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135925#135925
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in |
Hi, i mist the flyin due to taking the kids to legoland! are there any pictures
somwhere i can look at?
Steve. #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 23
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Based on my reading, it is too simplistic to say that flutter depends
only on TAS. An exact model would have to include IAS and TAS, and not
necessarily in a linear fashion. In the example of flying at FL450, the
airplane is unlikely to encounter flutter with a dynamic pressure that
is near stall condition. However, it is true that the margin between
stall and flutter can significantly narrow at higher altitudes. I was
told that the U-2 only has a few knots margin between stall and flutter
at its highest operational altitude.
--- europa flugzeug fabrik <n3eu@oh.rr.com> wrote:
> <n3eu@oh.rr.com>
>
> Wait a minute here. The quoted cite sounds authoritative, but U.S.
> Regs for production aircraft state that Vne must be marked on the
> ASI.
>
> If we got enough of a turbocharger to get to like FL450, we could
> indicate down near stall at max cruise velocity attainable, and
> contrary to what they say, our ailerons won't be very effective at
> all. How can we possibly experience aileron flutter just above stall
> speed?
>
> Fred F.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135910#135910
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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Here is another definition for the debate.
VNE
The VNE , or the never exceed speed, of an aircraft is the V speed
which refers to the velocity that should never be exceeded due to risk
of structural failure, due to calculated factors such as wing or tail
deformation or due to aeroelastic 'flutter' (unstable airframe or
control oscillation). VNE is specified as a red line on many airspeed
indicators. This speed is specific to the aircraft model, and represents
the edge of its performance envelope in terms of speed. Well below the
speed of sound, the VNE is read as Indicated Air Speed (IAS), since the
pitot indication is a direct measure of the dynamic pressure for any
given airspeed. At altitude, where TAS is higher than IAS, aerodynamic
damping is weaker than at lower levels (damping is proportional to IAS)
whereas inertia-induced disturbances are stronger (inertia grows with
acceleration, which is the time derivative of TAS). This condition, if
continued beyond tested limits, pre-disposes to unstable oscillations or
'flutter'. For instance, the TAS/IAS ratio at 40,000 ft on the ICAO ISA
is 2:1, that is, TAS is approximately twice IAS.
Every aircraft I have ever flown stated the Vne as indicated airspeed.
The Falcon 20 I'm away flying at the moment has its Vne and Vno stated
as an indicated airspeed.
Just been to the bar to get a beer and a colleague of mine answered the
question - Vne is in indicated airspeed always. How else would the
pilot know if he were exceeding it. I have some respect for his opinion
as he recently retired from British Aerospace as a Senior Test Pilot, he
flew harriers and did much of the flight testing on the new Typhoon 2
fighter.
I don't know why everyone is getting so hot under the collar about the
flight at Vne. Ivan and Pete Clark did a lot of testing of the europa.
I do it every year at permit renewal as required and it really is a non
event - I must confess however that I cannot see the point of that
particular part of the flight test schedule.
Incidentally, at medium to light weights G-JULZ will achieve Vne
straight and level at 2000 feet (indicated airspeed) 914/Airmaster
'with the pedal to the metal'. Andy Draper found the ASI to reasonably
accurate - I don't worry about it too much anyway.
I don't think we Rotax chaps need to worry too much anyway. It would be
different if we all fitted Jabiru 6s - we could then climb at some mind
spinning rate towards the tropopause and cruise at a Mach No - just to
be cool. Of course we would have to fit a larger fuel tank - wouldn't
we Bob? One distinct advantage of the Jabiru is that at those dizzy
altitudes it can reach you will be able to keep the cabin warm -
apparently many of them overheat or have some type of cooling issues.
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth.................
It makes me want to sign on again.
Now don't get upset, just having a bit of a leg pull - you are all
getting far too serious.
regards,
Mike.
"TAKE COVER!!!!..........INCOMING"
Message 25
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Actually, I think that you were told wrong.
If you read Gary Powers' book the quote is "The U2 has only a few Knots
between the stall and Critical Mach Number." I didn' think that flutter was
a big issue with irreversable power flying controls.
regards,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Sarangan" <asarangan@YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE
>
> Based on my reading, it is too simplistic to say that flutter depends
> only on TAS. An exact model would have to include IAS and TAS, and not
> necessarily in a linear fashion. In the example of flying at FL450, the
> airplane is unlikely to encounter flutter with a dynamic pressure that
> is near stall condition. However, it is true that the margin between
> stall and flutter can significantly narrow at higher altitudes. I was
> told that the U-2 only has a few knots margin between stall and flutter
> at its highest operational altitude.
>
>
> --- europa flugzeug fabrik <n3eu@oh.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> <n3eu@oh.rr.com>
>>
>> Wait a minute here. The quoted cite sounds authoritative, but U.S.
>> Regs for production aircraft state that Vne must be marked on the
>> ASI.
>>
>> If we got enough of a turbocharger to get to like FL450, we could
>> indicate down near stall at max cruise velocity attainable, and
>> contrary to what they say, our ailerons won't be very effective at
>> all. How can we possibly experience aileron flutter just above stall
>> speed?
>>
>> Fred F.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135910#135910
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> 15/09/2007 19:54
>
>
Message 26
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I used FL 450 only to exaggerate the raw effect of reduced aerodynamic pressure,
and other things happen with really high performance aircraft way up there.
However, FAR Part 23 is clear that Vne is determined with reference to several
things, all of which have to with pressure, IOW air density. If there is a
significant variance with Vne vs. altitude, then the ASI must have a way to so
indicate. No Part 23 airplane in the Europa's class has such an ASI, right?.
A simple red line (what don't move!) complies with the rules.
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135939#135939
Message 27
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Subject: | Re: Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll |
May I suggest you remove the rubber slings altogether and replace with heavy
duty carpet cut in a triangular shape (actually its diamond shaped before
you fit it) so that there is at least 12 inches of support at the leading
edge. Make sure there is at least 3" clearance between the leading edge and
the base of the sling support (and also pack some foam here in case the
slings stretch).
It is possible to fit a (wide) strap over the outboard ends of the flaps to
prevent the wings from bouncing up and down in the slings. Make sure they
are clamped securely at the root ends and use packing if necessary.
Also make sure the base of the tyre is tightly packed into the U channel
(ie: that it fits). If necessary over inflate the tyre (once it is in situ).
If you dont the fuselage may tip over and the flap tube ends contact with
the top of your wings and dent them. You may consider taping carpet covered
squares to the wing surface where this could occur. If the fuselage is
properly supported in the channel which grips the top of the wheel swinging
arm there should not be that much movement but if not you will need to use
packing strips (glued into place).
Also carry the tailplanes inside your vehicle and not on the trailer if
possible.
Apologies if im repeating what others have said.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 2:47 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll
>
> Paul,
> I have trailered my plane and bits several times account bedroom
> squeeze at home and have had some damage.
> [1] The rubber slings mar the wing badly. Produce some heavy polythene
> plastic (6mil) pieces 8"x80" and folded lengthwise to cover the slings and
> prevent old rubber marking the wings;
> [2] Cover the pip-pins locking the slings in place (at the bottom) with
> heavy foam to prevent the road bumps from banging the leading edge into
> the
> pins - very work-making repair;
> [2A] Duck tape soft foam bundles to the inside top edge of the sling
> frames to prevent damage to the fuselage sides, as I haven't been able to
> stop SOME motion of the fuselage nearby;
> [3] Initially inspect the slings for deterioration (mine were ten years
> old) and cracking, because if they let go the wing drops onto the pin.
> (The
> permanent fix is to redrill the pin holes to one side - out of the way);
> [4] Use long bungee cords to hold the wings down into the slings - this
> will prevent excess bobbing on the bumps;
> [5] I have not found any cover for the trailer which won't flap somehow
> and damage a delicate finish - choose a good day, and stay off the stones,
> sand;
> [6] Use inner tubes elastics or short bungees over the bolt ends to
> clamp the outriggers vertical and fabricate two (or four) vee-shaped
> sheets
> to slip over the aileron ends to prevent motion;
> [7] Depending on speed, fabricate a 3- or 4-layer fibreglass loop shaped
> to prevent the rudder from flapping (it's out front). This also stops the
> tailwheel from shimmying in the lock and the fuselage from side-to-side
> wander;
> [8] If you must trailer in poor conditions, make some soft funnels to
> cover the wing trailing edge root corners to prevent inevitable cover
> holes
> from flapping. Same for tip trailing edges.
> [9] Use some form of pulley to double the draw of the tailwheel tightly
> enough to lock the mainwheel up easily. Mine requires some compression of
> the main tire to seat that tail properly.
> [10] If it's first time, you will want to ensure the mainwheel 'bucket'
> folds up outside and against the gearswing arm as tight clearances there
> assure vertical state of the fuselage. It marks but who cares?
>
> My personal experience is that 40 bungees is not too many a number to stop
> flapping.
> There's always an excuse for one more...........
>
> Hope that helps
> Ferg
> PS: I modified the spar boxes on the trailer so that they clamp securely
> to
> the spare on both sides - one is built to accommodate the spar 'tunnel' in
> the heavyweight mod.
> Don't use the stab pipes - I'm still trying to rescue a plastic pipe end
> from inside a stab. Hope you saved the foam forms the stabs came in -
> ideal
> holders.
>
>
>
Message 28
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Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in |
I took some pictures and will try to post them here when I get a chance.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve v " <s.vestuti@virgin.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in
>
> Hi, i mist the flyin due to taking the kids to legoland! are there any
> pictures somwhere i can look at?
>
> Steve. #573
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
Message 29
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Subject: | Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
Hi! Carl
The only problems encountered at present is the 20 pages of test details
the PFA expects! If you don't remember to note "chapter and verse" when
doing the test it means doing it again. And I don't like flying with my
"head in the office"! Unable to make any pronouncements about
performance at present except with the turbo engaged the thrust is well
in excess of the MT /Jabiru range.( not proven by scientific means just
the "kick in the butt" experienced when the "taps are opened" on take
off or climb.)
I chose the Woodcomp on the basis of cost, locality for service, and
professionalism exhibited during a factory visit. The controller I have
in use is Mark Burton's Smart Avionics Controller which is working
flawlessly.
The prop. has feather facility (which I haven't used yet!) but I elected
not to have the reverse thrust capability (This is not on the top of the
PFA popularity list !) The MT was an excellent prop. for cooling on the
Jabiru but nevertheless was very expensive, and together with the
overhaul 72 month requirement and price made a change inevitable but my
mind was made up by wrecking it when my nose wheel yoke departed on
landing!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Pattinson
Sent: 23 September 2007 18:01
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411
<carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Hi Bob,
I noticed your ac is fitted with the Woodcomp Scimitar blades.
What prompted your choice (presumably over the Airmaster) and how are
you
finding it. Is there any noticeable improvement in performance.
Are you using the Woodcomp or the Smart cotroller.
We are currently looking to fit a replacement prop and the scimitar
blade is
something of a rarity amongst Europas. In fact William Mills was the
only
other one I was aware of.
Carl Pattinson
G_LABS
PS: any problem with the PFA approving the installation.
Message 30
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Yes, but why not RAS or CAS given that IAS is not necessarily accurate due to position
or instrument errors?
For example, I know that the ASI on my own aircraft progressively under-reads as
speed is increased. However, if I change the static to use cockpit static, it
then over-reads at low speed.
One of my customers who fitted a SmartASS talking ASI queried the fact that it
was reporting quite different speeds to their mechanical ASI and, subsequently,
discovered that their mechanical ASI was actually untrustworthy and needed
replacing. From memory, I think their ASI had been under-reading.
The point I am making is that the average ASI system (pitot, static, instrument,
plumbing, position errors, etc.) is very unlikely to deliver an accurate IAS
(within, say, +/- 1%). This rather makes a mockery of the PFA's requirement
to fly at VNE within one indicated speed unit.
If you think about it, it's rather a chicken-and-egg situation because how can
you check the accuracy of your ASI at VNE without flying at VNE (as indicated
by the ASI!)?
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135944#135944
Message 31
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Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
We have a baby 912 also and are hoping it will help us get off the ground
sooner.
At an frugal 13.5 litres per hour (110kts) we are not that keen to swap it
for the 100hp version.
The lack of power on take off is our only gripe - in all other respects we
are more than happy.
Where are you based - it would be interesting to compare the performance of
our respective aircraft (assuming yours is a Classic monowheel).
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Burton" <markb@ordern.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:41 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411
>
>> At FL 125 the prop was maximum coarse ... More throttle to climb a bit
>> more resulted in more revs to my surprise. Maybe that's to be expected?
>
> Well, yes, if the prop is already at maximum coarse, increasing the
> throttle will raise the RPM.
>
> My own SR3000 does run out of coarse pitch in the cruise but that is due
> to the coarse limit limit (!) imposed by the PFA. Other regimes may well
> allow the prop to go coarser so it won't run out of pitch. A possible
> issue here is that I only have the baby motor (80hp) so the +ve ROC test
> in fully coarse is always going to be a bit of a struggle.
>
> Apart from that annoyance, I find the SR3000 splendid. It's very smooth
> (in more ways than one), has fantastic leading edge protection and the
> carbon finish looks stunning.
>
> Mark
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135925#135925
>
>
>
Message 32
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Mike ...all this mirth .must be a derivative of your temporary
accommodation after the floods ?
Just did the Vne test on G-PTAG you are right, quite a non-event .
However have to do it again since the PFA need to know whether the
Engine max. RPM is in danger with the CS prop on Manual, set fully
course which I forgot to examine.
Regards
Bob H
Ddo not archive...
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: 23 September 2007 20:51
Subject: Re: Europa-List: More on VNE
Here is another definition for the debate.
VNE
The VNE , or the never exceed speed, of an aircraft is the V speed which
refers to the velocity that should never be exceeded due to risk of
structural failure, due to calculated factors such as wing or tail
deformation or due to aeroelastic 'flutter' (unstable airframe or
control oscillation). VNE is specified as a red line on many airspeed
indicators. This speed is specific to the aircraft model, and represents
the edge of its performance envelope in terms of speed. Well below the
speed of sound, the VNE is read as Indicated Air Speed (IAS), since the
pitot indication is a direct measure of the dynamic pressure for any
given airspeed. At altitude, where TAS is higher than IAS, aerodynamic
damping is weaker than at lower levels (damping is proportional to IAS)
whereas inertia-induced disturbances are stronger (inertia grows with
acceleration, which is the time derivative of TAS). This condition, if
continued beyond tested limits, pre-disposes to unstable oscillations or
'flutter'. For instance, the TAS/IAS ratio at 40,000 ft on the ICAO ISA
is 2:1, that is, TAS is approximately twice IAS.
Every aircraft I have ever flown stated the Vne as indicated airspeed.
The Falcon 20 I'm away flying at the moment has its Vne and Vno stated
as an indicated airspeed.
Just been to the bar to get a beer and a colleague of mine answered the
question - Vne is in indicated airspeed always. How else would the
pilot know if he were exceeding it. I have some respect for his opinion
as he recently retired from British Aerospace as a Senior Test Pilot, he
flew harriers and did much of the flight testing on the new Typhoon 2
fighter.
I don't know why everyone is getting so hot under the collar about the
flight at Vne. Ivan and Pete Clark did a lot of testing of the europa.
I do it every year at permit renewal as required and it really is a non
event - I must confess however that I cannot see the point of that
particular part of the flight test schedule.
Incidentally, at medium to light weights G-JULZ will achieve Vne
straight and level at 2000 feet (indicated airspeed) 914/Airmaster
'with the pedal to the metal'. Andy Draper found the ASI to reasonably
accurate - I don't worry about it too much anyway.
I don't think we Rotax chaps need to worry too much anyway. It would be
different if we all fitted Jabiru 6s - we could then climb at some mind
spinning rate towards the tropopause and cruise at a Mach No - just to
be cool. Of course we would have to fit a larger fuel tank - wouldn't
we Bob? One distinct advantage of the Jabiru is that at those dizzy
altitudes it can reach you will be able to keep the cabin warm -
apparently many of them overheat or have some type of cooling issues.
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth.................
It makes me want to sign on again.
Now don't get upset, just having a bit of a leg pull - you are all
getting far too serious.
regards,
Mike.
"TAKE COVER!!!!..........INCOMING"
Message 33
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Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
Hi Carl,
Assuming it is I your message is directed at, I am based at Sleap (EGCV).
My a/c is a tri-gear so we can't really directly compare them.
However, I have noticed that the SR3000 seems to perform noticeably better at low
speed compared to the other props I have had so it may well provide the t/o
performance you are looking for. I know that William (Mills) thought that the
low speed performance was very good.
Hi Bob, what's the acceleration like on PTAG now?
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135958#135958
Message 34
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Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in |
Pics as promised.
First attempt at posting so hope it works.
Dont know how to do multiples so have made a composite photo instead -
scaled to fit the page (hopefully).
Carl
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in
> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> I took some pictures and will try to post them here when I get a chance.
>
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "steve v " <s.vestuti@virgin.net>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in
>
>
>>
>> Hi, i mist the flyin due to taking the kids to legoland! are there any
>> pictures somwhere i can look at?
>>
>> Steve. #573
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 35
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Subject: | Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 |
Yes, Mark I was referring to your posting.
One thing I hear again and again (well I heard it from William first) is how
smooth the prop runs.
I never felt the Warp prop was noticeably rough but (having balanced the
carbs and blades) always had the feeling it could be better.
It just feels "gravelly" at certain speeds but then maybe all props are
prone to this.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Burton" <markb@ordern.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:56 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411
>
> Hi Carl,
>
> Assuming it is I your message is directed at, I am based at Sleap (EGCV).
>
> My a/c is a tri-gear so we can't really directly compare them.
>
> However, I have noticed that the SR3000 seems to perform noticeably better
> at low speed compared to the other props I have had so it may well provide
> the t/o performance you are looking for. I know that William (Mills)
> thought that the low speed performance was very good.
>
> Hi Bob, what's the acceleration like on PTAG now?
>
> Mark
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135958#135958
>
>
>
Message 36
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Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-in |
Looks like i missed a great flyin, enjoyed the photos,
Steve #573 G-CEBV
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 37
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I read the Vne definition from wikipedia (which you posted) and your
observations that Vne is always given in IAS, and am having a difficult
time reconciling the two. If I am reading the wikipedia definition
correctly, it is saying that if the IAS is held constant (damping held
constant), as TAS increases with altitide, the inertia-induced
disturbances (derivative of TAS) will get stronger and predisposes the
airplane towards flutter.
I agree however that every airplane I have flown also had Vne given in
IAS. However, if you do a quick search on various discussion groups
(search for "Vne and flutter") the answer seems to be anything but
straight forward. Many sailplane pilots who fly up to 30-40k ft claim
Vne and stall can become the same. Others say no. The only thing that
most people seem to agree on is that Vne is difficult to pin down, and
it is neither IAS nor TAS.
--- Mike Parkin <mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Here is another definition for the debate.
>
> VNE
> The VNE , or the never exceed speed, of an aircraft is the V speed
> which refers to the velocity that should never be exceeded due to
> risk of structural failure, due to calculated factors such as wing or
> tail deformation or due to aeroelastic 'flutter' (unstable airframe
> or control oscillation). VNE is specified as a red line on many
> airspeed indicators. This speed is specific to the aircraft model,
> and represents the edge of its performance envelope in terms of
> speed. Well below the speed of sound, the VNE is read as Indicated
> Air Speed (IAS), since the pitot indication is a direct measure of
> the dynamic pressure for any given airspeed. At altitude, where TAS
> is higher than IAS, aerodynamic damping is weaker than at lower
> levels (damping is proportional to IAS) whereas inertia-induced
> disturbances are stronger (inertia grows with acceleration, which is
> the time derivative of TAS). This condition, if continued beyond
> tested limits, pre-disposes to unstable oscillations or 'flutter'.
> For instance, the TAS/IAS ratio at 40,000 ft on the ICAO ISA is 2:1,
> that is, TAS is approximately twice IAS.
>
> Every aircraft I have ever flown stated the Vne as indicated
> airspeed. The Falcon 20 I'm away flying at the moment has its Vne
> and Vno stated as an indicated airspeed.
> Just been to the bar to get a beer and a colleague of mine answered
> the question - Vne is in indicated airspeed always. How else would
> the pilot know if he were exceeding it. I have some respect for his
> opinion as he recently retired from British Aerospace as a Senior
> Test Pilot, he flew harriers and did much of the flight testing on
> the new Typhoon 2 fighter.
>
> I don't know why everyone is getting so hot under the collar about
> the flight at Vne. Ivan and Pete Clark did a lot of testing of the
> europa. I do it every year at permit renewal as required and it
> really is a non event - I must confess however that I cannot see the
> point of that particular part of the flight test schedule.
>
> Incidentally, at medium to light weights G-JULZ will achieve Vne
> straight and level at 2000 feet (indicated airspeed) 914/Airmaster
> 'with the pedal to the metal'. Andy Draper found the ASI to
> reasonably accurate - I don't worry about it too much anyway.
>
> I don't think we Rotax chaps need to worry too much anyway. It would
> be different if we all fitted Jabiru 6s - we could then climb at some
> mind spinning rate towards the tropopause and cruise at a Mach No -
> just to be cool. Of course we would have to fit a larger fuel tank -
> wouldn't we Bob? One distinct advantage of the Jabiru is that at
> those dizzy altitudes it can reach you will be able to keep the cabin
> warm - apparently many of them overheat or have some type of cooling
> issues.
>
> Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
> And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
> Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth.................
>
> It makes me want to sign on again.
>
> Now don't get upset, just having a bit of a leg pull - you are all
> getting far too serious.
>
> regards,
>
> Mike.
>
> "TAKE COVER!!!!..........INCOMING"
>
>
>
Message 38
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Andrew Sarangan a crit :
>
>
> I read the Vne definition from wikipedia (which you posted) and your
> observations that Vne is always given in IAS, and am having a difficult
> time reconciling the two.
Andrew and all,
As you say things are not that straightforward.
Airplanes are designed for a specific Vd (Velocity dive) which is
expected to be well below flutter velocity.
Test pilots must *demonstrate* Vdf where flutter is absent (Vdf < or = Vd).
After that, Vne is *calculated* to be Vne < or = 0.9 Vdf < or = Vd.
This takes into account any ASI inaccuracy with a reasonable safety margin.
Only test pilots are allowed to intentionnally exceed Vne up to Vd.
So provided the airplane is correctly rigged and control-balanced, there
is no problem flying up to Vne in calm air.
Be aware though, that there is also a Vno and a Va (maneuvering speed)
to comply with. At Va you are only allowed to actuate *one* control to
full deflection at a time.
FWIW,
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 39
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> Airplanes are designed for a specific Vd (Velocity dive) which is
> expected to be well below flutter velocity.
See an interesting flutter animation at:
www.aircraftdesigns.com/flutter-analysis.html
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Message 40
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www.lancair.net/flutter.html ...strictly for flutter gluttons...
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