---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/23/07: 40 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:43 AM - Laddingford Fly-in (David Watts) 2. 01:50 AM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (josok) 3. 01:58 AM - Re: Aileron lenght (josok) 4. 03:31 AM - Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (R.C.Harrison) 5. 03:31 AM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (R.C.Harrison) 6. 04:42 AM - Re: Outriggers - Lockin (RoddyEuropa@aol.com) 7. 05:07 AM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (josok) 8. 05:19 AM - Re: Outriggers - Lockin (Karl Heindl) 9. 06:02 AM - More on VNE (Richard Pottorff) 10. 06:28 AM - Re: Speed increase with aft CG (William Harrison) 11. 06:47 AM - Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll (Fergus Kyle) 12. 07:40 AM - Re: Drag reduction (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 13. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Drag reduction (Gilles Thesee) 14. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: Drag reduction (Graham Singleton) 15. 08:40 AM - a gamechanger! (Fred Klein) 16. 09:04 AM - Re: a gamechanger! (Gilles Thesee) 17. 10:03 AM - Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (Carl Pattinson) 18. 10:32 AM - Re: More on VNE (europa flugzeug fabrik) 19. 10:33 AM - Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (josok) 20. 11:36 AM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in (Steve Pitt) 21. 11:42 AM - Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (Mark Burton) 22. 12:10 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in (steve v) 23. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: More on VNE (Andrew Sarangan) 24. 12:52 PM - Re: More on VNE (Mike Parkin) 25. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: More on VNE (Mike Parkin) 26. 01:03 PM - Re: More on VNE (europa flugzeug fabrik) 27. 01:29 PM - Re: Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll (Carl Pattinson) 28. 01:30 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in (Carl Pattinson) 29. 01:30 PM - Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (R.C.Harrison) 30. 01:31 PM - Re: More on VNE (Mark Burton) 31. 01:42 PM - Re: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (Carl Pattinson) 32. 01:45 PM - Re: More on VNE (R.C.Harrison) 33. 02:00 PM - Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (Mark Burton) 34. 02:56 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in (Carl Pattinson) 35. 03:02 PM - Re: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 (Carl Pattinson) 36. 04:12 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-in (steve v) 37. 04:21 PM - Re: More on VNE (Andrew Sarangan) 38. 06:12 PM - Re: More on VNE (Gilles Thesee) 39. 08:51 PM - Re: More on VNE (Fred Klein) 40. 09:08 PM - Re: More on VNE (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:55 AM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in Hi all, what a fanatastic day we had yesterday at our Laddingford Fly-in. (Unfortunately the weather was not over the whole country and some called to say they had tried to get down but failed). By the end of the day we had 17 Europas in amongst 46 aircraft at the event and all seemed to have enjoyed an excellent day amongst like minded people. We managed to raise around =A3400 for the Kent Air Ambulance Trust through donations. Thank you. Again the weather played its part and we enjoyed calm to light winds and pleasant temperatures. Thank you to all who attended and made all the preparation work worthwhile. Dave Watts Europa G-BXDY Laddingford Aerodrome Manager ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit From: "josok" My gills are closed, and while i don't have "before" experience, i can confirm it is the cowl air exit that is restricting airflow. I have my OAT probe in the air-inlet box, and it sees warm air, ,where it should only get air from the NACA vent. I have the Singleton firewall, which probably reduces outlet area more then the factory metal one. Temperatures are withing range now, but no real hot weather experience yet. Have a 914 with a shroud! The next thing i would like to try is to partially or completely close off the original air-inlet openings, to reduce the amount of competing air on the outlet. Comments please! Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:29 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Aileron lenght From: "josok" Mine were both too long, and made exactly as the Manual dictates. Nev confirmed me that there have been some too long foam pieces around. On his advice i cut them to the right lenght, outboard side, dug out foam and made nice new ends. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:21 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 Hi! All In part to be viewed in reply to Jos Okhuijsen's message re-Rotax 914 cooling . The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: IMG_0410 G-PTAG front view off centre port side new Rotax/Europa cowls with modified Cooling air intakes. IMG_0411 G-PTAG front view off centre starboard side new Rotax/Europa Cowls with modified Cooling air intakes. Regards Bob Harrison ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:22 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit Hi! Jos Herewith the picture of a "splash" copy of Peter Kembers Mod for the cowl inlet ducts which Ivor Phillips kindly produced for me. The only beef I have at present is the tendency to overheat on a delayed departure, but many people advise this will ease by about 50 hours on the clock. In the short term I'm considering "jacking" the lower cowl fixings off the fuselage by about 1" as per my previous success with the Jabiru/Europa Cowl. All the top cowl gills are closed and I have an insulated "bread box" (as described by Neville!) on the P1 footwell for the Regulator unit and the Turbo Servo unit with some cold air bled off the cooling air duct. In flight I've never seen the temps within the box to be more than 32 deg C with ambients around 22 deg C but without the water and oil check flaps open on shut down the temps in this box do rise to in the region of 40 deg C. Due to my incapability with shifting files about I'm sending on further pictures re. this message under another separate message ! Hopefully this is constructive help in the cooling debate? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok Sent: 23 September 2007 09:49 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit My gills are closed, and while i don't have "before" experience, i can confirm it is the cowl air exit that is restricting airflow. I have my OAT probe in the air-inlet box, and it sees warm air, ,where it should only get air from the NACA vent. I have the Singleton firewall, which probably reduces outlet area more then the factory metal one. Temperatures are withing range now, but no real hot weather experience yet. Have a 914 with a shroud! The next thing i would like to try is to partially or completely close off the original air-inlet openings, to reduce the amount of competing air on the outlet. Comments please! Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:26 AM PST US From: RoddyEuropa@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outriggers - Lockin When I tested my outriggers locking, the the aircraft jacked up on the ground, they worked fine. But I think they only locked when I slowed below the gear retraction speed - I heard a distinct knock which I assume was the locking taking place when the aircraft slowed to near approach speed. I believe the drag at higher speed was keeping the outriggers held back and only when the speed reduced did gravity kick in and they locked. So, I would recommend checking that they lock down on the ground with some back pressure on the outriggers - I attached a bungee to the outrigger wheel and pulled it back during the ground test. Sure enough, no locking until the back pressure was reduced. Once adjusted all working fine and no problems since. Roddy Kesterton G-IKRK In a message dated 22/09/2007 20:16:20 GMT Standard Time, paul.mcallister@qia.net writes: --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down. As the airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the wing off, over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it was a windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables. So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I know some people have fitted them in the past. Paul ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit From: "josok" Thanks Bob, Most helpful, the pictures came through good as well. The change on the bottom cowl certainly looks good. Makes me think: What about doing away with that tunnel altogether, and only have something like a boxed radiator on the bottom? It would bring back the beautiful classic look, probably reduce drag, and still having more air flowing through the radiator(s). Comments please :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:03 AM PST US From: "Karl Heindl" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outriggers - Lockin >From: RoddyEuropa@aol.com >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Outriggers - Lockin >Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 07:41:03 EDT > > >When I tested my outriggers locking, the the aircraft jacked up on the >ground, they worked fine. But I think they only locked when I slowed below >the >gear retraction speed - I heard a distinct knock which I assume was the >locking >taking place when the aircraft slowed to near approach speed. I believe >the >drag at higher speed was keeping the outriggers held back and only when >the >speed reduced did gravity kick in and they locked. > >So, I would recommend checking that they lock down on the ground with some >back pressure on the outriggers - I attached a bungee to the outrigger >wheel >and pulled it back during the ground test. Sure enough, no locking until >the >back pressure was reduced. Once adjusted all working fine and no problems >since. > >Roddy Kesterton >G-IKRK > >In a message dated 22/09/2007 20:16:20 GMT Standard Time, >paul.mcallister@qia.net writes: > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > >Hi all, > >Today I landed my Europa and the port outrigger had not locked down. As >the >airspeed decayed I guessed what had happened and tried to keep the wing >off, >over corrected and ground looped it. Exit one prop. Fortunately it was >a >windless day so I wasn't trying to fight too many other variables. > >So... it looks like gear down and locked lights might be in order. I know >some people have fitted them in the past. > >Paul > > _________________________________________________________________ Get Pimped! FREE emoticon packs from Windows Live - http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:42 AM PST US From: "Richard Pottorff" Subject: Europa-List: More on VNE At the risk of inciting a religious war, I found site backing up my previous claim that VNE is dependent on TAS not IAS nor CAS: http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/flutter.html 13.2 Standard airspeed limitations<> If Vne is expressed in terms of true airspeed then its value remains the same no matter what the [density] altitude. However though indicated airspeed reflects dynamic pressure it understates the true airspeed so if the structural limitations which define Vne for an aircraft type are particularly associated with the distribution of forces associated with flow velocity then the specified Vne as an indicated airspeed has to be decreased as altitude is increased - to adjust it to the true airspeed, which latter is about 1.5% greater than IAS/CAS for every 1000 feet of altitude, see rule of thumb #2. For most light aircraft it is reasonable that only one Vne is specified in the Pilot's Operating Handbook or Flight Manual and that value may have been calculated for a 'normal' cruising altitude, say 5000 feet, rather than ISA mean sea level. If uncertain about a particular aircraft multiply the (density) altitude, in 1000s of feet, by a factor of 1.5 to get the percentage DECREASE to apply to the specified Vne for a corrected Vne appropriate to the altitude. For example if altitude is 8000 feet and specified Vne is 100 knots then 8[000] =D7 1.5 = 12%. Corrected Vne = 88% of 100 = 88 knots IAS/CAS. Table 1 is a normal calculation of corrected Vne, you can see that the difference between the 140 knots specified and the corrected Vne is significant and that it appears quite possible for turbocharged low drag aircraft to exceed corrected Vne in level flight at higher altitudes. Vne as a maximum airspeed applies only for smooth atmospheric conditions and for gentle control movements; even vertical gusts associated with mild turbulence or control movements greater than say 25% travel will lead to some nasty surprises, if operating close to but below Vne. At such high speed the controls are very effective with a high possibility for over-control applying extreme loads to the structures and some aircraft control systems provide an inadequate feedback of the load being exerted i.e. a high load can be applied with a relatively low stick force.. Be aware: deliberately exceeding Vne is the realm of the test pilot - who always wears a parachute! ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:57 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Speed increase with aft CG Certainly a lot less than 5kts difference on mine at 1370 (although I haven't been too scientific about this). Willie H On 21 Sep 2007, at 22:29, wrote: > > Anyone have any numbers for speed increase with aft CG versus > frward CG? > > How about a guess for speed increase 1370 or 1450 AUW 61" CG versus > 59"? > > (+50 Knots, +5 Knots, +.5 Knots)?? > > How about a guess for increase 1370 AUW 62.5" CG versus 59"? > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:37 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll Paul, I have trailered my plane and bits several times account bedroom squeeze at home and have had some damage. [1] The rubber slings mar the wing badly. Produce some heavy polythene plastic (6mil) pieces 8"x80" and folded lengthwise to cover the slings and prevent old rubber marking the wings; [2] Cover the pip-pins locking the slings in place (at the bottom) with heavy foam to prevent the road bumps from banging the leading edge into the pins - very work-making repair; [2A] Duck tape soft foam bundles to the inside top edge of the sling frames to prevent damage to the fuselage sides, as I haven't been able to stop SOME motion of the fuselage nearby; [3] Initially inspect the slings for deterioration (mine were ten years old) and cracking, because if they let go the wing drops onto the pin. (The permanent fix is to redrill the pin holes to one side - out of the way); [4] Use long bungee cords to hold the wings down into the slings - this will prevent excess bobbing on the bumps; [5] I have not found any cover for the trailer which won't flap somehow and damage a delicate finish - choose a good day, and stay off the stones, sand; [6] Use inner tubes elastics or short bungees over the bolt ends to clamp the outriggers vertical and fabricate two (or four) vee-shaped sheets to slip over the aileron ends to prevent motion; [7] Depending on speed, fabricate a 3- or 4-layer fibreglass loop shaped to prevent the rudder from flapping (it's out front). This also stops the tailwheel from shimmying in the lock and the fuselage from side-to-side wander; [8] If you must trailer in poor conditions, make some soft funnels to cover the wing trailing edge root corners to prevent inevitable cover holes from flapping. Same for tip trailing edges. [9] Use some form of pulley to double the draw of the tailwheel tightly enough to lock the mainwheel up easily. Mine requires some compression of the main tire to seat that tail properly. [10] If it's first time, you will want to ensure the mainwheel 'bucket' folds up outside and against the gearswing arm as tight clearances there assure vertical state of the fuselage. It marks but who cares? My personal experience is that 40 bungees is not too many a number to stop flapping. There's always an excuse for one more........... Hope that helps Ferg PS: I modified the spar boxes on the trailer so that they clamp securely to the spare on both sides - one is built to accommodate the spar 'tunnel' in the heavyweight mod. Don't use the stab pipes - I'm still trying to rescue a plastic pipe end from inside a stab. Hope you saved the foam forms the stabs came in - ideal holders. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:02 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: Drag reduction In a message dated 9/23/2007 2:58:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found in the engine cowl area. Closing off the gills would be the first thing (they add no value to the plane). Second would be to clean up the radiator opening and following duct, it is too large for the size of this engine and is rather messy. Then clean up the radiator exit, it is very messy back there. Hi Terry, Or, you could install a Jab and do away with the radiator, gills and the stock, stubby Europa cowl altogether. The 1800+ fpm climb rate I'm regularly seeing with my Jab is nothing to sneeze at, nor is the $10,000 lower price over the 912S. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - 115 hours and going strong (and soon to be much faster, too) Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:00 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Drag reduction John, > you could install a Jab and do away with the radiator, gills and the > stock, stubby Europa cowl altogether. Of course an aircooled engine doesn't need a coolant radiator, but the cooling needs are about the same ! Due to aerodynamic and thermodynamic considerations, an air-cooled engine will always drag a little more than its liquid-cooled counterpart. That is provided the cooling installation is equallly well designed in both cases. Concerning the Europa cowl, I agree with you it seems in need of some aerodynamical improvements ;-) > > The 1800+ fpm climb rate I'm regularly seeing with my Jab is nothing > to sneeze at, nor is the $10,000 lower price over the 912S. Would you care to share any precise speed measurements (3 GPS runs, max take off weight, record of altitude, OAT, etc.) ? My Jabiru buddies are getting soooo discreet when it comes to actual performance ;-( Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:37 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Drag reduction John I have some friends in UK with a Jab 6 who are having cooling difficulties, would you like to copy me please when you reply to Gilles? Graham TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/23/2007 2:58:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > europa-list@matronics.com writes: > > /I believe the biggest improvement in reducing drag would be found > in the > engine cowl area. Closing off the gills would be the first thing > (they add > no value to the plane). Second would be to clean up the radiator > opening > and following duct, it is too large for the size of this engine and is > rather messy. Then clean up the radiator exit, it is very messy > back there/. > > > Hi Terry, > > Or, you could install a Jab and do away with the radiator, gills and the > stock, stubby Europa cowl altogether. > > The 1800+ fpm climb rate I'm regularly seeing with my Jab is nothing to > sneeze at, nor is the $10,000 lower price over the 912S. > > Regards, > > John Lawton > Whitwell, TN (TN89) > N245E - 115 hours and going strong (and soon to be much faster, too) > > Do Not Archive > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:48 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: a gamechanger! From: Fred Klein This is a new one for me: seats 2, 912S, stall @ 53 kts, VNE 270 kts, max. cruise @ 200 kts Molt Taylor is vindicated! check out: www.lhaviation.com/site_frame/bases_marges/index.htm Fred do not archive -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:39 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: a gamechanger! Fred Klein a crit : > > seats 2, 912S, stall @ 53 kts, VNE 270 kts, max. cruise @ 200 kts Hey Fred, Considering the small wing and obviously long takeoff run, they still have some work to make it fly so slowly. And seeing the tufts on the aft fuselage and fin, they'll have some work to make it fly so fast. Let's say approach at 75 and cruise at 140-150 kts with a 912S.... Quite correct, but definitely not short take off. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:02 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 Hi Bob, I noticed your ac is fitted with the Woodcomp Scimitar blades. What prompted your choice (presumably over the Airmaster) and how are you finding it. Is there any noticeable improvement in performance. Are you using the Woodcomp or the Smart cotroller. We are currently looking to fit a replacement prop and the scimitar blade is something of a rarity amongst Europas. In fact William Mills was the only other one I was aware of. Carl Pattinson G_LABS PS: any problem with the PFA approving the installation. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:48 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" Wait a minute here. The quoted cite sounds authoritative, but U.S. Regs for production aircraft state that Vne must be marked on the ASI. If we got enough of a turbocharger to get to like FL450, we could indicate down near stall at max cruise velocity attainable, and contrary to what they say, our ailerons won't be very effective at all. How can we possibly experience aileron flutter just above stall speed? Fred F. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135910#135910 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 From: "josok" Hi Carl, Me too, Woodcomp wit scimitar blades and reverse, Smart Avionics controller. I like them both, and enjoy the money saved. The reverse is nice to generate surprise on faces, backing up into a parking space. Have not tried reverse during roll-out yet. Only concrete landings so far, it could be handy on grass and will be handy on ice. Since i have never flown with anything else, it's difficult to compare. Ivan Shaw found the prop smooth and silent running. He also was not sure about it's efficiency, but it was at engine run-in time, difficult to say. There is no vibration at all. It came assembled and balanced. The numbers are as William once published. At FL 125 the prop was maximum coarse, doing 135 knots indicated and 4800 on the controller. More throttle to climb a bit more resulted in more revs to my surprise. Maybe that's to be expected? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:08 AM PST US From: "Steve Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in David, Thanks to you and Peter et al for the organisation yesterday. My son and I thoroughly enjoyed the occasion. It is what the Europa was designed and built for. Regards to all, Steve Pitt G-SMDH ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:06 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 From: "Mark Burton" > At FL 125 the prop was maximum coarse ... More throttle to climb a bit more resulted in more revs to my surprise. Maybe that's to be expected? Well, yes, if the prop is already at maximum coarse, increasing the throttle will raise the RPM. My own SR3000 does run out of coarse pitch in the cruise but that is due to the coarse limit limit (!) imposed by the PFA. Other regimes may well allow the prop to go coarser so it won't run out of pitch. A possible issue here is that I only have the baby motor (80hp) so the +ve ROC test in fully coarse is always going to be a bit of a struggle. Apart from that annoyance, I find the SR3000 splendid. It's very smooth (in more ways than one), has fantastic leading edge protection and the carbon finish looks stunning. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135925#135925 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in From: "steve v " Hi, i mist the flyin due to taking the kids to legoland! are there any pictures somwhere i can look at? Steve. #573 Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:15 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE Based on my reading, it is too simplistic to say that flutter depends only on TAS. An exact model would have to include IAS and TAS, and not necessarily in a linear fashion. In the example of flying at FL450, the airplane is unlikely to encounter flutter with a dynamic pressure that is near stall condition. However, it is true that the margin between stall and flutter can significantly narrow at higher altitudes. I was told that the U-2 only has a few knots margin between stall and flutter at its highest operational altitude. --- europa flugzeug fabrik wrote: > > > Wait a minute here. The quoted cite sounds authoritative, but U.S. > Regs for production aircraft state that Vne must be marked on the > ASI. > > If we got enough of a turbocharger to get to like FL450, we could > indicate down near stall at max cruise velocity attainable, and > contrary to what they say, our ailerons won't be very effective at > all. How can we possibly experience aileron flutter just above stall > speed? > > Fred F. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135910#135910 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:21 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: More on VNE Here is another definition for the debate. VNE The VNE , or the never exceed speed, of an aircraft is the V speed which refers to the velocity that should never be exceeded due to risk of structural failure, due to calculated factors such as wing or tail deformation or due to aeroelastic 'flutter' (unstable airframe or control oscillation). VNE is specified as a red line on many airspeed indicators. This speed is specific to the aircraft model, and represents the edge of its performance envelope in terms of speed. Well below the speed of sound, the VNE is read as Indicated Air Speed (IAS), since the pitot indication is a direct measure of the dynamic pressure for any given airspeed. At altitude, where TAS is higher than IAS, aerodynamic damping is weaker than at lower levels (damping is proportional to IAS) whereas inertia-induced disturbances are stronger (inertia grows with acceleration, which is the time derivative of TAS). This condition, if continued beyond tested limits, pre-disposes to unstable oscillations or 'flutter'. For instance, the TAS/IAS ratio at 40,000 ft on the ICAO ISA is 2:1, that is, TAS is approximately twice IAS. Every aircraft I have ever flown stated the Vne as indicated airspeed. The Falcon 20 I'm away flying at the moment has its Vne and Vno stated as an indicated airspeed. Just been to the bar to get a beer and a colleague of mine answered the question - Vne is in indicated airspeed always. How else would the pilot know if he were exceeding it. I have some respect for his opinion as he recently retired from British Aerospace as a Senior Test Pilot, he flew harriers and did much of the flight testing on the new Typhoon 2 fighter. I don't know why everyone is getting so hot under the collar about the flight at Vne. Ivan and Pete Clark did a lot of testing of the europa. I do it every year at permit renewal as required and it really is a non event - I must confess however that I cannot see the point of that particular part of the flight test schedule. Incidentally, at medium to light weights G-JULZ will achieve Vne straight and level at 2000 feet (indicated airspeed) 914/Airmaster 'with the pedal to the metal'. Andy Draper found the ASI to reasonably accurate - I don't worry about it too much anyway. I don't think we Rotax chaps need to worry too much anyway. It would be different if we all fitted Jabiru 6s - we could then climb at some mind spinning rate towards the tropopause and cruise at a Mach No - just to be cool. Of course we would have to fit a larger fuel tank - wouldn't we Bob? One distinct advantage of the Jabiru is that at those dizzy altitudes it can reach you will be able to keep the cabin warm - apparently many of them overheat or have some type of cooling issues. Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth................. It makes me want to sign on again. Now don't get upset, just having a bit of a leg pull - you are all getting far too serious. regards, Mike. "TAKE COVER!!!!..........INCOMING" ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:53 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE Actually, I think that you were told wrong. If you read Gary Powers' book the quote is "The U2 has only a few Knots between the stall and Critical Mach Number." I didn' think that flutter was a big issue with irreversable power flying controls. regards, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Sarangan" Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:13 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE > > Based on my reading, it is too simplistic to say that flutter depends > only on TAS. An exact model would have to include IAS and TAS, and not > necessarily in a linear fashion. In the example of flying at FL450, the > airplane is unlikely to encounter flutter with a dynamic pressure that > is near stall condition. However, it is true that the margin between > stall and flutter can significantly narrow at higher altitudes. I was > told that the U-2 only has a few knots margin between stall and flutter > at its highest operational altitude. > > > --- europa flugzeug fabrik wrote: > >> >> >> Wait a minute here. The quoted cite sounds authoritative, but U.S. >> Regs for production aircraft state that Vne must be marked on the >> ASI. >> >> If we got enough of a turbocharger to get to like FL450, we could >> indicate down near stall at max cruise velocity attainable, and >> contrary to what they say, our ailerons won't be very effective at >> all. How can we possibly experience aileron flutter just above stall >> speed? >> >> Fred F. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135910#135910 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > 15/09/2007 19:54 > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:30 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" I used FL 450 only to exaggerate the raw effect of reduced aerodynamic pressure, and other things happen with really high performance aircraft way up there. However, FAR Part 23 is clear that Vne is determined with reference to several things, all of which have to with pressure, IOW air density. If there is a significant variance with Vne vs. altitude, then the ASI must have a way to so indicate. No Part 23 airplane in the Europa's class has such an ASI, right?. A simple red line (what don't move!) complies with the rules. Fred F. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135939#135939 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:10 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll May I suggest you remove the rubber slings altogether and replace with heavy duty carpet cut in a triangular shape (actually its diamond shaped before you fit it) so that there is at least 12 inches of support at the leading edge. Make sure there is at least 3" clearance between the leading edge and the base of the sling support (and also pack some foam here in case the slings stretch). It is possible to fit a (wide) strap over the outboard ends of the flaps to prevent the wings from bouncing up and down in the slings. Make sure they are clamped securely at the root ends and use packing if necessary. Also make sure the base of the tyre is tightly packed into the U channel (ie: that it fits). If necessary over inflate the tyre (once it is in situ). If you dont the fuselage may tip over and the flap tube ends contact with the top of your wings and dent them. You may consider taping carpet covered squares to the wing surface where this could occur. If the fuselage is properly supported in the channel which grips the top of the wheel swinging arm there should not be that much movement but if not you will need to use packing strips (glued into place). Also carry the tailplanes inside your vehicle and not on the trailer if possible. Apologies if im repeating what others have said. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fergus Kyle" Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 2:47 PM Subject: Europa-List: Trailer tips -ATTN Paul McAll > > Paul, > I have trailered my plane and bits several times account bedroom > squeeze at home and have had some damage. > [1] The rubber slings mar the wing badly. Produce some heavy polythene > plastic (6mil) pieces 8"x80" and folded lengthwise to cover the slings and > prevent old rubber marking the wings; > [2] Cover the pip-pins locking the slings in place (at the bottom) with > heavy foam to prevent the road bumps from banging the leading edge into > the > pins - very work-making repair; > [2A] Duck tape soft foam bundles to the inside top edge of the sling > frames to prevent damage to the fuselage sides, as I haven't been able to > stop SOME motion of the fuselage nearby; > [3] Initially inspect the slings for deterioration (mine were ten years > old) and cracking, because if they let go the wing drops onto the pin. > (The > permanent fix is to redrill the pin holes to one side - out of the way); > [4] Use long bungee cords to hold the wings down into the slings - this > will prevent excess bobbing on the bumps; > [5] I have not found any cover for the trailer which won't flap somehow > and damage a delicate finish - choose a good day, and stay off the stones, > sand; > [6] Use inner tubes elastics or short bungees over the bolt ends to > clamp the outriggers vertical and fabricate two (or four) vee-shaped > sheets > to slip over the aileron ends to prevent motion; > [7] Depending on speed, fabricate a 3- or 4-layer fibreglass loop shaped > to prevent the rudder from flapping (it's out front). This also stops the > tailwheel from shimmying in the lock and the fuselage from side-to-side > wander; > [8] If you must trailer in poor conditions, make some soft funnels to > cover the wing trailing edge root corners to prevent inevitable cover > holes > from flapping. Same for tip trailing edges. > [9] Use some form of pulley to double the draw of the tailwheel tightly > enough to lock the mainwheel up easily. Mine requires some compression of > the main tire to seat that tail properly. > [10] If it's first time, you will want to ensure the mainwheel 'bucket' > folds up outside and against the gearswing arm as tight clearances there > assure vertical state of the fuselage. It marks but who cares? > > My personal experience is that 40 bungees is not too many a number to stop > flapping. > There's always an excuse for one more........... > > Hope that helps > Ferg > PS: I modified the spar boxes on the trailer so that they clamp securely > to > the spare on both sides - one is built to accommodate the spar 'tunnel' in > the heavyweight mod. > Don't use the stab pipes - I'm still trying to rescue a plastic pipe end > from inside a stab. Hope you saved the foam forms the stabs came in - > ideal > holders. > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:39 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in I took some pictures and will try to post them here when I get a chance. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve v " Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:09 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in > > Hi, i mist the flyin due to taking the kids to legoland! are there any > pictures somwhere i can look at? > > Steve. #573 > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:52 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 Hi! Carl The only problems encountered at present is the 20 pages of test details the PFA expects! If you don't remember to note "chapter and verse" when doing the test it means doing it again. And I don't like flying with my "head in the office"! Unable to make any pronouncements about performance at present except with the turbo engaged the thrust is well in excess of the MT /Jabiru range.( not proven by scientific means just the "kick in the butt" experienced when the "taps are opened" on take off or climb.) I chose the Woodcomp on the basis of cost, locality for service, and professionalism exhibited during a factory visit. The controller I have in use is Mark Burton's Smart Avionics Controller which is working flawlessly. The prop. has feather facility (which I haven't used yet!) but I elected not to have the reverse thrust capability (This is not on the top of the PFA popularity list !) The MT was an excellent prop. for cooling on the Jabiru but nevertheless was very expensive, and together with the overhaul 72 month requirement and price made a change inevitable but my mind was made up by wrecking it when my nose wheel yoke departed on landing! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: 23 September 2007 18:01 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 Hi Bob, I noticed your ac is fitted with the Woodcomp Scimitar blades. What prompted your choice (presumably over the Airmaster) and how are you finding it. Is there any noticeable improvement in performance. Are you using the Woodcomp or the Smart cotroller. We are currently looking to fit a replacement prop and the scimitar blade is something of a rarity amongst Europas. In fact William Mills was the only other one I was aware of. Carl Pattinson G_LABS PS: any problem with the PFA approving the installation. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:25 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE From: "Mark Burton" Yes, but why not RAS or CAS given that IAS is not necessarily accurate due to position or instrument errors? For example, I know that the ASI on my own aircraft progressively under-reads as speed is increased. However, if I change the static to use cockpit static, it then over-reads at low speed. One of my customers who fitted a SmartASS talking ASI queried the fact that it was reporting quite different speeds to their mechanical ASI and, subsequently, discovered that their mechanical ASI was actually untrustworthy and needed replacing. From memory, I think their ASI had been under-reading. The point I am making is that the average ASI system (pitot, static, instrument, plumbing, position errors, etc.) is very unlikely to deliver an accurate IAS (within, say, +/- 1%). This rather makes a mockery of the PFA's requirement to fly at VNE within one indicated speed unit. If you think about it, it's rather a chicken-and-egg situation because how can you check the accuracy of your ASI at VNE without flying at VNE (as indicated by the ASI!)? Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135944#135944 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:54 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 We have a baby 912 also and are hoping it will help us get off the ground sooner. At an frugal 13.5 litres per hour (110kts) we are not that keen to swap it for the 100hp version. The lack of power on take off is our only gripe - in all other respects we are more than happy. Where are you based - it would be interesting to compare the performance of our respective aircraft (assuming yours is a Classic monowheel). Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Burton" Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:41 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 > >> At FL 125 the prop was maximum coarse ... More throttle to climb a bit >> more resulted in more revs to my surprise. Maybe that's to be expected? > > Well, yes, if the prop is already at maximum coarse, increasing the > throttle will raise the RPM. > > My own SR3000 does run out of coarse pitch in the cruise but that is due > to the coarse limit limit (!) imposed by the PFA. Other regimes may well > allow the prop to go coarser so it won't run out of pitch. A possible > issue here is that I only have the baby motor (80hp) so the +ve ROC test > in fully coarse is always going to be a bit of a struggle. > > Apart from that annoyance, I find the SR3000 splendid. It's very smooth > (in more ways than one), has fantastic leading edge protection and the > carbon finish looks stunning. > > Mark > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135925#135925 > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:43 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: More on VNE Mike ...all this mirth .must be a derivative of your temporary accommodation after the floods ? Just did the Vne test on G-PTAG you are right, quite a non-event . However have to do it again since the PFA need to know whether the Engine max. RPM is in danger with the CS prop on Manual, set fully course which I forgot to examine. Regards Bob H Ddo not archive... Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 23 September 2007 20:51 Subject: Re: Europa-List: More on VNE Here is another definition for the debate. VNE The VNE , or the never exceed speed, of an aircraft is the V speed which refers to the velocity that should never be exceeded due to risk of structural failure, due to calculated factors such as wing or tail deformation or due to aeroelastic 'flutter' (unstable airframe or control oscillation). VNE is specified as a red line on many airspeed indicators. This speed is specific to the aircraft model, and represents the edge of its performance envelope in terms of speed. Well below the speed of sound, the VNE is read as Indicated Air Speed (IAS), since the pitot indication is a direct measure of the dynamic pressure for any given airspeed. At altitude, where TAS is higher than IAS, aerodynamic damping is weaker than at lower levels (damping is proportional to IAS) whereas inertia-induced disturbances are stronger (inertia grows with acceleration, which is the time derivative of TAS). This condition, if continued beyond tested limits, pre-disposes to unstable oscillations or 'flutter'. For instance, the TAS/IAS ratio at 40,000 ft on the ICAO ISA is 2:1, that is, TAS is approximately twice IAS. Every aircraft I have ever flown stated the Vne as indicated airspeed. The Falcon 20 I'm away flying at the moment has its Vne and Vno stated as an indicated airspeed. Just been to the bar to get a beer and a colleague of mine answered the question - Vne is in indicated airspeed always. How else would the pilot know if he were exceeding it. I have some respect for his opinion as he recently retired from British Aerospace as a Senior Test Pilot, he flew harriers and did much of the flight testing on the new Typhoon 2 fighter. I don't know why everyone is getting so hot under the collar about the flight at Vne. Ivan and Pete Clark did a lot of testing of the europa. I do it every year at permit renewal as required and it really is a non event - I must confess however that I cannot see the point of that particular part of the flight test schedule. Incidentally, at medium to light weights G-JULZ will achieve Vne straight and level at 2000 feet (indicated airspeed) 914/Airmaster 'with the pedal to the metal'. Andy Draper found the ASI to reasonably accurate - I don't worry about it too much anyway. I don't think we Rotax chaps need to worry too much anyway. It would be different if we all fitted Jabiru 6s - we could then climb at some mind spinning rate towards the tropopause and cruise at a Mach No - just to be cool. Of course we would have to fit a larger fuel tank - wouldn't we Bob? One distinct advantage of the Jabiru is that at those dizzy altitudes it can reach you will be able to keep the cabin warm - apparently many of them overheat or have some type of cooling issues. Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth................. It makes me want to sign on again. Now don't get upset, just having a bit of a leg pull - you are all getting far too serious. regards, Mike. "TAKE COVER!!!!..........INCOMING" ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:57 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 From: "Mark Burton" Hi Carl, Assuming it is I your message is directed at, I am based at Sleap (EGCV). My a/c is a tri-gear so we can't really directly compare them. However, I have noticed that the SR3000 seems to perform noticeably better at low speed compared to the other props I have had so it may well provide the t/o performance you are looking for. I know that William (Mills) thought that the low speed performance was very good. Hi Bob, what's the acceleration like on PTAG now? Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135958#135958 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:02 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in Pics as promised. First attempt at posting so hope it works. Dont know how to do multiples so have made a composite photo instead - scaled to fit the page (hopefully). Carl G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:28 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in > > > I took some pictures and will try to post them here when I get a chance. > > Carl Pattinson > G-LABS > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steve v " > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:09 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in > > >> >> Hi, i mist the flyin due to taking the kids to legoland! are there any >> pictures somwhere i can look at? >> >> Steve. #573 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:04 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 Yes, Mark I was referring to your posting. One thing I hear again and again (well I heard it from William first) is how smooth the prop runs. I never felt the Warp prop was noticeably rough but (having balanced the carbs and blades) always had the feeling it could be better. It just feels "gravelly" at certain speeds but then maybe all props are prone to this. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Burton" Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:56 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411 > > Hi Carl, > > Assuming it is I your message is directed at, I am based at Sleap (EGCV). > > My a/c is a tri-gear so we can't really directly compare them. > > However, I have noticed that the SR3000 seems to perform noticeably better > at low speed compared to the other props I have had so it may well provide > the t/o performance you are looking for. I know that William (Mills) > thought that the low speed performance was very good. > > Hi Bob, what's the acceleration like on PTAG now? > > Mark > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135958#135958 > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-in From: "steve v " Looks like i missed a great flyin, enjoyed the photos, Steve #573 G-CEBV Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:16 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: More on VNE I read the Vne definition from wikipedia (which you posted) and your observations that Vne is always given in IAS, and am having a difficult time reconciling the two. If I am reading the wikipedia definition correctly, it is saying that if the IAS is held constant (damping held constant), as TAS increases with altitide, the inertia-induced disturbances (derivative of TAS) will get stronger and predisposes the airplane towards flutter. I agree however that every airplane I have flown also had Vne given in IAS. However, if you do a quick search on various discussion groups (search for "Vne and flutter") the answer seems to be anything but straight forward. Many sailplane pilots who fly up to 30-40k ft claim Vne and stall can become the same. Others say no. The only thing that most people seem to agree on is that Vne is difficult to pin down, and it is neither IAS nor TAS. --- Mike Parkin wrote: > Here is another definition for the debate. > > VNE > The VNE , or the never exceed speed, of an aircraft is the V speed > which refers to the velocity that should never be exceeded due to > risk of structural failure, due to calculated factors such as wing or > tail deformation or due to aeroelastic 'flutter' (unstable airframe > or control oscillation). VNE is specified as a red line on many > airspeed indicators. This speed is specific to the aircraft model, > and represents the edge of its performance envelope in terms of > speed. Well below the speed of sound, the VNE is read as Indicated > Air Speed (IAS), since the pitot indication is a direct measure of > the dynamic pressure for any given airspeed. At altitude, where TAS > is higher than IAS, aerodynamic damping is weaker than at lower > levels (damping is proportional to IAS) whereas inertia-induced > disturbances are stronger (inertia grows with acceleration, which is > the time derivative of TAS). This condition, if continued beyond > tested limits, pre-disposes to unstable oscillations or 'flutter'. > For instance, the TAS/IAS ratio at 40,000 ft on the ICAO ISA is 2:1, > that is, TAS is approximately twice IAS. > > Every aircraft I have ever flown stated the Vne as indicated > airspeed. The Falcon 20 I'm away flying at the moment has its Vne > and Vno stated as an indicated airspeed. > Just been to the bar to get a beer and a colleague of mine answered > the question - Vne is in indicated airspeed always. How else would > the pilot know if he were exceeding it. I have some respect for his > opinion as he recently retired from British Aerospace as a Senior > Test Pilot, he flew harriers and did much of the flight testing on > the new Typhoon 2 fighter. > > I don't know why everyone is getting so hot under the collar about > the flight at Vne. Ivan and Pete Clark did a lot of testing of the > europa. I do it every year at permit renewal as required and it > really is a non event - I must confess however that I cannot see the > point of that particular part of the flight test schedule. > > Incidentally, at medium to light weights G-JULZ will achieve Vne > straight and level at 2000 feet (indicated airspeed) 914/Airmaster > 'with the pedal to the metal'. Andy Draper found the ASI to > reasonably accurate - I don't worry about it too much anyway. > > I don't think we Rotax chaps need to worry too much anyway. It would > be different if we all fitted Jabiru 6s - we could then climb at some > mind spinning rate towards the tropopause and cruise at a Mach No - > just to be cool. Of course we would have to fit a larger fuel tank - > wouldn't we Bob? One distinct advantage of the Jabiru is that at > those dizzy altitudes it can reach you will be able to keep the cabin > warm - apparently many of them overheat or have some type of cooling > issues. > > Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth > And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; > Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth................. > > It makes me want to sign on again. > > Now don't get upset, just having a bit of a leg pull - you are all > getting far too serious. > > regards, > > Mike. > > "TAKE COVER!!!!..........INCOMING" > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:40 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: More on VNE Andrew Sarangan a crit : > > > I read the Vne definition from wikipedia (which you posted) and your > observations that Vne is always given in IAS, and am having a difficult > time reconciling the two. Andrew and all, As you say things are not that straightforward. Airplanes are designed for a specific Vd (Velocity dive) which is expected to be well below flutter velocity. Test pilots must *demonstrate* Vdf where flutter is absent (Vdf < or = Vd). After that, Vne is *calculated* to be Vne < or = 0.9 Vdf < or = Vd. This takes into account any ASI inaccuracy with a reasonable safety margin. Only test pilots are allowed to intentionnally exceed Vne up to Vd. So provided the airplane is correctly rigged and control-balanced, there is no problem flying up to Vne in calm air. Be aware though, that there is also a Vno and a Va (maneuvering speed) to comply with. At Va you are only allowed to actuate *one* control to full deflection at a time. FWIW, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: More on VNE From: Fred Klein > Airplanes are designed for a specific Vd (Velocity dive) which is > expected to be well below flutter velocity. See an interesting flutter animation at: www.aircraftdesigns.com/flutter-analysis.html do not archive -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:57 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: More on VNE From: Fred Klein www.lancair.net/flutter.html ...strictly for flutter gluttons... do not archive -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.