---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/25/07: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:20 AM - Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) (JohnDHeykoop@aol.com) 2. 01:37 AM - Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) (Michael Grass) 3. 02:49 AM - Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_041 (josok) 4. 03:20 AM - Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) (JohnDHeykoop@aol.com) 5. 04:15 AM - Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) (Mark Burton) 6. 04:55 AM - Re: Re: More on VNE (craig bastin) 7. 05:13 AM - Re: radio (Kenneth Whiteley) 8. 05:19 AM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (JEFF ROBERTS) 9. 05:30 AM - Re:Jabiropa performance (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 10. 05:37 AM - Re: More on VNE (europa flugzeug fabrik) 11. 05:37 AM - drag issues and cowl suggestion (craig bastin) 12. 06:01 AM - Jabiropa performance (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 13. 07:17 AM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (Jeff B) 14. 08:20 AM - Re: drag issues and cowl suggestion (Trevpond@aol.com) 15. 09:17 AM - Re: Monowheel speed kit (Terry Seaver (terrys)) 16. 09:40 AM - Re: Jabiropa performance (Graham Singleton) 17. 07:05 PM - motorglider V-speeds and registration (David DeFord) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:49 AM PST US From: JohnDHeykoop@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) In a message dated 23/09/2007 18:04:27 GMT Standard Time, carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk writes: Hi Bob, I noticed your ac is fitted with the Woodcomp Scimitar blades. What prompted your choice (presumably over the Airmaster) and how are you finding it. Is there any noticeable improvement in performance. Are you using the Woodcomp or the Smart cotroller. We are currently looking to fit a replacement prop and the scimitar blade is something of a rarity amongst Europas. In fact William Mills was the only other one I was aware of. Carl Pattinson G_LABS PS: any problem with the PFA approving the installation. Carl & others interested in Woodcomp Scimitar blades for the monowheel Europa I too was briefly interested in the Woodcomp propeller with scimitar blades, but have now bought an Airmaster propeller. In the UK the 65" (1650mm) diameter of the Woodcomp scimitar blades is an issue, the normal maximum for the monowheel Europa being 64" (1625mm). William Mills had scimitar blades fitted to his mono, but according to the PFA his propeller was only 63" . I suppose William's propeller must have been an early prototype. The PFA will only allow you to fit a propeller of more than 64" diameter if you can show compliance with CS-VLA925. In order to do that you will have to demonstrate that the ground clearance from the propeller tip, with the aircraft fully loaded, in a level attitude and with a flat tyre, is at least 230mm. You don't actually have to deflate the tyre, for you can simply subtract the distance from the rim to the ground from your ground clearance measurement. If you think the scimitar blades are worth all this hassle it would be prudent to make sure that you are going to get at least 230mm ground clearance before you place an order. That means doing the measurements twice, once before you order the propeller, and the second time once you have the scimitar blades fitted. You can, of course, buy the Woodcomp propeller with standard blades. If you go this route, get one with the Smart Avionics controller. Woodcomp know how to make good propellers, but their controller has a poor reputation. Hope this helps John Europa XS monowheel G-JHKP (Rotax 912S + Airmaster CS, 2200 build hours todate - hopefully I will be flying next summer) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:37:08 AM PST US From: "Michael Grass" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) Hi John, all, Did you ask Woodcomp for the prop in 1625mm? I ordered my Woodcomp Prop with Scimitar blades about a year ago with 1625 mm and got what I have ordered. Regards Michael Grass A266 Trigear, 914, Wooodcomp SR3000 ----- Original Message ----- From: JohnDHeykoop@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 4:19 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) In a message dated 23/09/2007 18:04:27 GMT Standard Time, carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk writes: Hi Bob, I noticed your ac is fitted with the Woodcomp Scimitar blades. What prompted your choice (presumably over the Airmaster) and how are you finding it. Is there any noticeable improvement in performance. Are you using the Woodcomp or the Smart cotroller. We are currently looking to fit a replacement prop and the scimitar blade is something of a rarity amongst Europas. In fact William Mills was the only other one I was aware of. Carl Pattinson G_LABS PS: any problem with the PFA approving the installation. Carl & others interested in Woodcomp Scimitar blades for the monowheel Europa I too was briefly interested in the Woodcomp propeller with scimitar blades, but have now bought an Airmaster propeller. In the UK the 65" (1650mm) diameter of the Woodcomp scimitar blades is an issue, the normal maximum for the monowheel Europa being 64" (1625mm). William Mills had scimitar blades fitted to his mono, but according to the PFA his propeller was only 63" . I suppose William's propeller must have been an early prototype. The PFA will only allow you to fit a propeller of more than 64" diameter if you can show compliance with CS-VLA925. In order to do that you will have to demonstrate that the ground clearance from the propeller tip, with the aircraft fully loaded, in a level attitude and with a flat tyre, is at least 230mm. You don't actually have to deflate the tyre, for you can simply subtract the distance from the rim to the ground from your ground clearance measurement. If you think the scimitar blades are worth all this hassle it would be prudent to make sure that you are going to get at least 230mm ground clearance before you place an order. That means doing the measurements twice, once before you order the propeller, and the second time once you have the scimitar blades fitted. You can, of course, buy the Woodcomp propeller with standard blades. If you go this route, get one with the Smart Avionics controller. Woodcomp know how to make good propellers, but their controller has a poor reputation. Hope this helps John Europa XS monowheel G-JHKP (Rotax 912S + Airmaster CS, 2200 build hours todate - hopefully I will be flying next summer) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_041 From: "josok" Same here, more clearance then with the Airmaster-Warpdrive. it's a non-issue. It's also lighter, smoother, comes assembled and balanced. With the Smart Avionics controller so easy, one would forget it's there. The only problem is the price, for some people it is difficult to accept that price is not always the same as value. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:20:23 AM PST US From: JohnDHeykoop@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) In a message dated 25/09/2007 09:38:19 GMT Standard Time, M.Grass@comcast.net writes: Hi John, all, Did you ask Woodcomp for the prop in 1625mm? I ordered my Woodcomp Prop with Scimitar blades about a year ago with 1625 mm and got what I have ordered. Regards Michael Grass A266 Trigear, 914, Wooodcomp SR3000 Hi Michael, all No I did not. Their UK agent said that the prop could only be supplied in 1650mm diameter. Shows you how wrong he was. And teaches me not to rely on agents. Regards John ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:31 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) From: "Mark Burton" G-NEAT is fitted with a scimitar bladed SR3000. The documentation supplied by Woodcomp states the diameter to be 1625mm (aka 64"). Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136286#136286 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:07 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE Thats why this part of the flight envelope is generally called coffin corner cause you go any slower you stall, go any faster you break the plane, have a look at the service envelope charts for a piper or cessna etc you will see what i mean -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of europa flugzeug fabrik Sent: Monday, 24 September 2007 3:32 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE Wait a minute here. The quoted cite sounds authoritative, but U.S. Regs for production aircraft state that Vne must be marked on the ASI. If we got enough of a turbocharger to get to like FL450, we could indicate down near stall at max cruise velocity attainable, and contrary to what they say, our ailerons won't be very effective at all. How can we possibly experience aileron flutter just above stall speed? Fred F. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135910#135910 1:27 PM 1:27 PM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:49 AM PST US From: Kenneth Whiteley Subject: Re: Europa-List: radio In message <77636CA4-F5E7-437E-8A7F-E59A42297F13@pstewart.f2s.com>, Paul Stewart writes > >I've done something stupid but can't work out what. I have a microair >760 radio wired through an XCOM intercom. Fired it all up for the >first time this evening. To my great surprise it all worked (almost). >Radio receives fine. Intercom works a treat. Even the music input >works. However when I press the PTT (either P1 or P2) a get a loud >buzzing in the headphones - the radio also transmits this buzzing. It >does this even without a mic plugged in. Anyone suggest what I've done? > It sounds as though the microphone is not connected into the Microair. The buzzing would be due to the open circuit on the microphone input to the transmitter. Regards Ken Whiteley ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:40 AM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit > Lying under the rear of the cowl, I used a 'nibbler' to remove > material from the rear of the 'separator', allowing more air from the > top area into the common exit. I probably removed about three inches > off the rear of the 'separator'. Hi Terry, I am in the middle of fighting this same cooling issue but I have a tri-gear. I'm sure I need more air coming out the bottom as so, but help me understand what a nibbler is. Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 84 hours and climbing slowly. > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:32 AM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit > > > Hi Terry, > > [quote:ffc914ab8d="terrys at cisco.com"] I neglected to mention that > when we closed off our gills we also opened up the lower cowl exit area > and baffled the area between the foot wells > > -----[/quote:ffc914ab8d] > Interesting, > How did you do that opening up, is it possible for you to attach a > picture (or 2) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:48 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Re:Jabiropa performance In a message dated 9/25/2007 2:58:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: Thank you for providing those much interesting numbers. Very interesting data, indeed, and I'm sure many homebuilder will be interested in how you achieved a successful engine installation. Hi Gilles, You're quite welcome. It's really no mystery as to how to arrive at a successful engine installation: Pay attention to the folks who are successful and ignore the folks who aren't. The real trick is being able to wade through those spreading minutia and get to those who are real achievers and who have had real success and mimic what they did. That can be a tough row to hoe, especially considering the millions of soap boxes out there, courtesy of the Internet. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:39 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: More on VNE From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" Why is any technical article found on the internet authoritative? Why wouldn't the FAA care enough to fix their Regs? People die when airplanes break apart. Fred F. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136304#136304 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:49 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: Europa-List: drag issues and cowl suggestion This may seem like an odd suggestion but has anyone considered a setup something simmilar to the air intake on the P51 mustang, but instead of air intake, use it for housing of radiators. Clearly the design worked ok given the performance of the p51, then the cowl could be steamlined as much as possible. just a thought. Sure would look cool IMHO. craig 1:27 PM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:43 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Jabiropa performance In a message dated 9/25/2007 2:58:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: thanks a lot for that. There are three or four Jabiropas here. One I know of is very happy but the others less so. My main question is do you have any baffles to force the cooling air throught the fins, or do you rely on the pressure in the plenums? My friends are using deflectors rather than baffles which I feel is a bit imprecise. I am more familiar with the sort of baffles EZ guys use on Lyconental engines where careful baffling works well. The Jabiru agents here in UK do not seem to have much in the way of good ideas. Hello Graham, My 3300 is one of the newer ones with the larger head cooling fins, but just before they switched to hydraulic lifters.(S/N 33A756 or #756) The engine came with fiberglass ducts of unknown origin, IOW, not Jabiru factory ducts, that fit over the top of the cylinders. I'm pretty sure Andy had the same guy who made the cowls make the ducts, but I've not verified that to be fact. Two, round 4" aluminum intake rings are captured by the cowl (similar to a Lancair) and serve to direct air into the ducts. I used 3mm rubber sheet to make a transition from the ring to the duct. This rubber helps damp vibration between the cowl and the engine and allows the two to move independently of each other. The two 4" rings together give me 25 square inches of intake and that should be more than enough for adequate cooling and it is has shown to be adequate on all but the hottest days. I only really see one cylinder that gets a bit hot in climb above 95F ambient temperature and it's still 30F below redline. I do have internal baffling to direct air over the center cylinders, but it is very subtle, maybe 3 mm tall on the inside top of the duct, parallel to the cylinder. Small changes in the height of these baffles make huge differences in CHT's. The height of the baffle is determined by trial and error. I'd start at about 5-7mm and whittle it down from there until a balance is achieved. You could make an internal baffle with successive layers of duct tape to determine the height, then replace it with either flox or a flat fiberglass piece cut to the shape of the inside of the baffle, then flox that into place. Initially, I was told to start with 1 cm high baffles, but it only took one short flight to realize that was way too much for my installation. I've been doing some manometer testing on the pressure differential between the inside of the cowl and the inside of the duct and it has left me thinking that my left duct just isn't the right shape. Using Jabiru's manometer testing method, my results have been completely contradictory to what Jabiru says it takes for adequate cooling. So, I'm testing a new left side Sonex styled sheet metal duct today. I'll let everybody know if it works. If it does work, I'm going to do some manometer testing on it and get some hard numbers to play with in terms of what it really takes to make the left side run cool. Film at 11:00PM...... Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:21 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit Jeff, A nibbler is a hand held tool, usually air powered, which contains a small punch and anvil. When used, it "nibbles" away at the aluminum, creating small crescent-shaped bits as it eats through the material. It's used to cut out areas that would be difficult to get to with shears, or other tools... Jeff - Baby Blue 329 hrs JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > > >> Lying under the rear of the cowl, I used a 'nibbler' to remove >> material from the rear of the 'separator', allowing more air from the >> top area into the common exit. I probably removed about three inches >> off the rear of the 'separator'. > > Hi Terry, > I am in the middle of fighting this same cooling issue but I have a > tri-gear. I'm sure I need more air coming out the bottom as so, but > help me understand what a nibbler is. > Regards, > Jeff R. > A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 84 hours and climbing slowly. > > >> Terry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok >> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:32 AM >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit >> >> >> Hi Terry, >> >> [quote:ffc914ab8d="terrys at cisco.com"] I neglected to mention that >> when we closed off our gills we also opened up the lower cowl exit area >> and baffled the area between the foot wells >> >> -----[/quote:ffc914ab8d] >> Interesting, >> How did you do that opening up, is it possible for you to attach a >> picture (or 2) >> >> Regards, >> >> Jos Okhuijsen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:06 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: drag issues and cowl suggestion Hi Craig, I had the "P51" type radiator on my ARV Super2 and it proved to be one of the biggest weaknesses on the whole aircraft. It was OK in the air but on the ground it proved to be a nightmare as there was no airflow unless there was a strong wind on the nose. When I was in a queue when leaving Cranfield, I had to park immediately behind a twin to keep the temperatures down! regards Trev Pond G-LINN ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:45 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" The nibbler is a small metal cutting tool available at Radio Shack, for example (Google 'Radio Shack nibbler'). It is a convenient way to remove small bits of metal from the cooling duct without removing it. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JEFF ROBERTS Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 8:55 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit > Lying under the rear of the cowl, I used a 'nibbler' to remove > material from the rear of the 'separator', allowing more air from the > top area into the common exit. I probably removed about three inches > off the rear of the 'separator'. Hi Terry, I am in the middle of fighting this same cooling issue but I have a tri-gear. I'm sure I need more air coming out the bottom as so, but help me understand what a nibbler is. Regards, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 84 hours and climbing slowly. > Terry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 10:32 AM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel speed kit > > > Hi Terry, > > [quote:ffc914ab8d="terrys at cisco.com"] I neglected to mention that > when we closed off our gills we also opened up the lower cowl exit > area and baffled the area between the foot wells > > -----[/quote:ffc914ab8d] > Interesting, > How did you do that opening up, is it possible for you to attach a > picture (or 2) > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:22 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jabiropa performance John thanks again! btw, why not use an ASI connected wrong way round to measure the pressure differential inside the cowl, easier and more convenient than flying with water filled tubes in the cockpit? There is a table somewhere of indicated airspeed versus delta P regards Graham T > > I've been doing some manometer testing on the pressure differential > between the inside of the cowl and the inside of the duct and it has > left me thinking that my left duct just isn't the right shape. Using > Jabiru's manometer testing method, my results have been > completely contradictory to what Jabiru says it takes for adequate > cooling. > Regards, > > John Lawton > Whitwell, TN (TN89) > N245E - Flying ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:48 PM PST US From: "David DeFord" Subject: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration We are just about ready for paint on our motorglider wings, and we have a few questions for other motorglider operators. 1. What are the expected stall speeds with the long wings, what are Vno and Va, and what is the limiting speed for airbrake extension (if any)? 2. How have people marked their airspeed indicators to show values for both short wings and long wings? Two concentric sets of arcs? 3. What are the C.G. limits with long wins? 4. Any hints for convincing the FAA to grant registration in two categories (ASEL and self-launch glider), depending on which wings are installed? We have been flying with the short wings for 6 years, so a change from the existing category and operating limitations will be required. 5. Keeping potential controversy for last, how does Vne vary with altitude? (The Diamond Extreme in which Terry and I recently got our self-launch glider ratings has a placard which derates Vne from the marked value at 6500 feet by exactly the same ratios as shown in the table for the Pipistrel Sinus, referenced in the article recently posted by Richard Pottorff.) Thanks. Dave DeFord N135TD ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.