Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:08 AM - Re: XCOM and stall warner (Richard Iddon)
2. 01:26 AM - Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! (Raimo Toivio)
3. 01:35 AM - Re: the American way (Steve Pitt)
4. 04:38 AM - Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! (Kingsley Hurst)
5. 06:35 AM - Jabiropa cooling (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
6. 07:23 AM - Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! (R.C.Harrison)
7. 09:39 AM - Re: the American way (Tim Houlihan)
8. 09:48 AM - Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration (ALAN YERLY)
9. 10:55 AM - Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! (Raimo Toivio)
10. 12:14 PM - Tire question - cannot fly before information (Raimo Toivio)
11. 01:14 PM - Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information (josok)
12. 01:24 PM - Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration (Terry Seaver (terrys))
13. 04:20 PM - More on Vne (Fergus Kyle)
14. 04:21 PM - Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration (rampil)
15. 04:34 PM - Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration (Graham Singleton)
16. 04:44 PM - Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information (Graham Singleton)
17. 05:32 PM - Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration (ALAN YERLY)
18. 05:32 PM - Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration (ALAN YERLY)
19. 05:36 PM - Re: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration (ALAN YERLY)
20. 10:05 PM - Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration (Ralph K. Hallett III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | XCOM and stall warner |
Paul.
I have the same setup. i.e. Microair radio and Xcom intercom with
factory stall warner. I wired the stall warner before getting the
intercom and have not bothered wiring it through the Xcom. The 'little'
horn does make a very lound and piercing noise. Intalled as recommended,
above your head, I have absolutely no problems hearing it even with
headsets on. Also, if you switch the intercom off for any reason, you
can not hear any auxiliary equipment wired thereto. I have one of Mark
Burton's Smart-ASS installed and can't hear it when the intercom is off.
Regards,
Richard Iddon G-RIXS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Stewart
Sent: 26 September 2007 22:09
Subject: Europa-List: XCOM and stall warner
<europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
Has anyone used the factory stall warner to sound through and
intercom (more specifically the XCOM one) rather than the little horn
supplied?. If so I'd be interested in how.
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
26/09/2007 12:12
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! |
Bob,
I noticed. I decided to be as an "Ex.pat",
but was blocked. How did the system
know I am not? ;)
Raimo
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:34 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
>
> Hi! Bob B/Raimo /All
>
> Regretfully I don't think you can assist (other than writing to "our
> esteemed" Prime Minister!) The petition application page requires your
> address and there is a box to use if you are an "Ex.Pat" So I guess
> they'd have a blocking mechanism and bar your participation.
> Yes, it is all so very very frustrating when generations past made the
> ultimate sacrifice for us to now finish up as a damn backwater to a
> Federal Europe.
> My great fear is that our gullible indigenous population will let it all
> happen without so much as a whimper. Only then will they realise the
> futility of belated resistance.
> Regards
> Bob h G-PTAG
>
> Do not archive.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> Borger
> Sent: 26 September 2007 16:20
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
>
>
> Gents,
>
> I'd be laughing if it weren't so sad. Just another example of political
> correctness gone mad. Send your guys over here to perform. Our PC
> crowd hasn't quite crammed this pseudo-niceness that far down our
> throats so we can enjoy the beauty and splendor of any and all aerial
> performers, military or otherwise. I bet they'd be a real hit at
> Oshkosh in 2012 and every year between now and 2012.
>
> May we colonials over here on the west side of the big pond sign your
> petition?
>
> Check six,
> Bob Borger
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 10:04AM, "Alan Burrows"
> <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> wrote:
> >Hi Guys
> >
> >
> >
> >I think I may have got this wrong when I tried to send it a few mins.
> Ago,
> >so here goes a second time. If, like me you feel this is one step too
> far .
> >(I can hear Bob Harrison applauding from here). Then you may wish to
> sign
> >up. It?s a really quick and simple process.
> >
> >What do you think? I?m sure our US friends must be laughing there
> heads off
> >at this one!
> >
> >Kind Regards
> >
> >
> >
> >Alan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Subject: [UKaerobatics] Red Arrows & the Olymipics...
> >
> >
> >
> >It takes 2-seconds to submit your signature to the petition; it is a
> >reputable, fully registered, petition site
> >
> >
> >
> >The world-famous Red Arrows have been banned from appearing at the 2012
> >London Olympics because they are deemed "too British".
> >
> >Organisers of the event say that the Arrows military background might
> be
> >"offensive" to other countries taking part in the Games. The display
> team
> >have performed at more than 4000 events worldwide, but the Department
> of
> >Culture, Media and Sport have deemed the display team "too
> militaristically
> >British". Red Arrows pilots were said to be "outraged", as they had
> hoped to
> >put on a truly world class display for the Games, something which had
> never
> >been seen before. Being axed from a British-based event for being "too
> >British" is an insult - the Arrows are a symbol of Britain.
> >
> >The Red Arrows have been excellent ambassadors for British overseas
> trade,
> >as they display their British-built Hawk aircraft all over the world.
> >
> >The Arrows performed a short flypast in 2005 when the winning bid was
> >announced, but their flypast at the Games was to have been truly
> >spectacular.
> >
> >It is to be hoped that common sense prevails.
> >
> >If you disagree with this decision, sign the petition on the link
> below?
> >
> > HYPERLINK
> "http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/RedArrows2012/?ref=redArrows2012"
> >\nhttp://petitions.-pm.gov.uk/-RedArrows2012/-?ref=redArrows20-12
> >
> >
> >25/09/2007
> >08:02
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: the American way |
Well done Fred. I was having a bad day and your message put a smile on
my face.
Regards
Steve Pitt G-SMDH
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! |
> I noticed. I decided to be as an "Ex.pat",
> but was blocked. How did the system
> know I am not? ;)
Raimo
If the Poms were smart enough to work out the German Enigma Code, I'm sure
they're smart enough to know YOU are NOT a Pom !!
In jest
Kingsley
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Jabiropa cooling |
In a message dated 9/27/2007 2:59:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list@matronics.com writes:
I'm wondering if a concentric lip projecting forward of the inlet...say
maybe as much as an inch (?)...could act in such a way as to divert
that vertically rising air around the inlet, reducing pressure in front
of the inlet, and increasing flow into your duct...? (I'm aware that
you've already tweaked the cowling geometry around the inlets.)
Hey Fred,
I tried using a thin mylar strip inside the intake hole to achieve exactly
what you mention and it had no effect. If anything it made it worse.
I think what is happening is a pressure wave is setting up in front of the
hole. It's caused by the spherical shape of the cowl intake and it's not at
all dissimilar to what happens when a smooth sphere is moved through a fluid.
Turbulating the flow on the edge of the sphere and the intake, much like
dimples on a golf ball, zigzag tape or vortex generators, should significantly
alter the airflow in a positive direction.
I've thought about dimpling the round parts of both intake areas like a golf
ball in lieu of the zigzag tape. That would make for an "interesting" look,
wouldn't it? It's tough to get the zigzag tape to lay flat in a curve like
that. I might wind up making the zigzag turbulator out of paint. I think I can
make a mold of sorts out of several layers of masking tape, then cut a ring
out with pinking shears, then shoot over it. The result should be the same
zigzag pattern, only made from paint. We've done this sort of thing before on
gliders, but never in a circle.
The real puzzle is why the right side doesn't exhibit the same flow
characteristics as the left. The right side sucks the string in with no turbulation,
while the left side rejects the string on the outboard half of the intake
ring unless the flow is turbulated as the air approaches the intake hole. I've
placed the fan in such a way as to simulate the flow on the right side, but on
the left, i.e., fan blade rising relative to the hole, as opposed to
falling, and it made no difference. Granted, this is considerably lower flow than
with the engine running at flight velocities, but I think the simulation should
be valid. I would think the pressure wave would only be stronger at higher
velocities. The flow behind the intakes above the top cowl, along the sides
of the cowl, and down the front of the cowl is very laminar, in fact a lot
more laminar than I expected. The only place I've seen the flow break is as it
gets to the junction of the windshield. I'm going to tuft that area in front
of the windshield on the top cowl prior to the next flight so I can see what
is going on there, too. There might be an advantage to be gained by a few well
placed vortex generators in that area.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Grounded until Friday
Message 6
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| Subject: | FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! |
Hi! Raimo
Probably the address you used wasn't authentic ? Also I'm guessing your
name may have placed a warning up or even the origin of your message.
Hi! Kingsley
You walked into that one good and proper !
Regards
To all
Bob H
Do not archive.
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo
Toivio
Sent: 27 September 2007 09:35
Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
Bob,
I noticed. I decided to be as an "Ex.pat",
but was blocked. How did the system
know I am not? ;)
Raimo
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:34 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Bob B/Raimo /All
>
> Regretfully I don't think you can assist (other than writing to "our
> esteemed" Prime Minister!) The petition application page requires your
> address and there is a box to use if you are an "Ex.Pat" So I guess
> they'd have a blocking mechanism and bar your participation.
> Yes, it is all so very very frustrating when generations past made the
> ultimate sacrifice for us to now finish up as a damn backwater to a
> Federal Europe.
> My great fear is that our gullible indigenous population will let it
all
> happen without so much as a whimper. Only then will they realise the
> futility of belated resistance.
> Regards
> Bob h G-PTAG
>
> Do not archive.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> Borger
> Sent: 26 September 2007 16:20
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
>
>
> Gents,
>
> I'd be laughing if it weren't so sad. Just another example of
political
> correctness gone mad. Send your guys over here to perform. Our PC
> crowd hasn't quite crammed this pseudo-niceness that far down our
> throats so we can enjoy the beauty and splendor of any and all aerial
> performers, military or otherwise. I bet they'd be a real hit at
> Oshkosh in 2012 and every year between now and 2012.
>
> May we colonials over here on the west side of the big pond sign your
> petition?
>
> Check six,
> Bob Borger
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 10:04AM, "Alan Burrows"
> <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> wrote:
> >Hi Guys
> >
> >
> >
> >I think I may have got this wrong when I tried to send it a few mins.
> Ago,
> >so here goes a second time. If, like me you feel this is one step too
> far .
> >(I can hear Bob Harrison applauding from here). Then you may wish to
> sign
> >up. It?s a really quick and simple process.
> >
> >What do you think? I?m sure our US friends must be laughing there
> heads off
> >at this one!
> >
> >Kind Regards
> >
> >
> >
> >Alan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Subject: [UKaerobatics] Red Arrows & the Olymipics...
> >
> >
> >
> >It takes 2-seconds to submit your signature to the petition; it is a
> >reputable, fully registered, petition site
> >
> >
> >
> >The world-famous Red Arrows have been banned from appearing at the
2012
> >London Olympics because they are deemed "too British".
> >
> >Organisers of the event say that the Arrows military background might
> be
> >"offensive" to other countries taking part in the Games. The display
> team
> >have performed at more than 4000 events worldwide, but the Department
> of
> >Culture, Media and Sport have deemed the display team "too
> militaristically
> >British". Red Arrows pilots were said to be "outraged", as they had
> hoped to
> >put on a truly world class display for the Games, something which had
> never
> >been seen before. Being axed from a British-based event for being
"too
> >British" is an insult - the Arrows are a symbol of Britain.
> >
> >The Red Arrows have been excellent ambassadors for British overseas
> trade,
> >as they display their British-built Hawk aircraft all over the world.
> >
> >The Arrows performed a short flypast in 2005 when the winning bid was
> >announced, but their flypast at the Games was to have been truly
> >spectacular.
> >
> >It is to be hoped that common sense prevails.
> >
> >If you disagree with this decision, sign the petition on the link
> below?
> >
> > HYPERLINK
> "http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/RedArrows2012/?ref=redArrows2012"
> >\nhttp://petitions.-pm.gov.uk/-RedArrows2012/-?ref=redArrows20-12
> >
> >
> >25/09/2007
> >08:02
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | the American way |
Well it is the case that the old ones are the best.
I don=92t know how long UPS have had an airline and pilots, I=92m sure
they
don=92t have target radars !! fitted
I think these =93Actual=94 pilots comments can be found in documents
nearly 50
years ago.
I do recall when a young lad in the RAF I signed for the =93before
flight
inspection=94 of a Canberra B2 Bomber only to be advised that that I
must have
good eyesight as that particular aircraft was actually in Germany while
I
was in Norfolk !!.
Best regards
Tim
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: 27 September 2007 02:40
Subject: Europa-List: the American way
After every flight, UPS (United Parcel Service) pilots fill out a form,
called a
"gripe sheet," which tells mechanics about problems with the aircraft.
The
mechanics
correct the problems, document their repairs on the form, and then
pilots review the gripe sheets before the next flight. Never let it be
said that ground crews lack a sense of humor. Here are some actual
maintenance complaints submitted by UPS pilots (marked with a P) and
the
solutions recorded (marked with an S) by maintenance engineers.
(UPS is the only major airline that has never, ever, had an accident.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
P: Left inside main tire almost needs replacement.
S: Almost replaced left inside main tire.
P: Test flight OK, except auto-land very rough.
S: Auto-land not installed on this aircraft.
P: Something loose in cockpit
S: Something tightened in cockpit
P: Dead bugs on windshield.
S: Live bugs on back-order.
P: Autopilot in altitude-hold mode produces a 200 feet per minute
descent.
S: Cannot reproduce problem on ground.
P: Evidence of leak on right main landing gear.
S: Evidence removed.
P: DME volume unbelievably loud.
S: DME volume set to more believable level.
P: Friction locks cause throttle levers to stick.
S: That's what friction locks are for.
P: IFF inoperative in OFF mode.
S: IFF always inoperative in OFF mode.
P: Suspected crack in windshield.
S: Suspect you're right.
P: Number 3 engine missing.
S: Engine found on right wing after brief search.
P: Aircraft handles funny.
S: Aircraft warned to: straighten up, fly right, and be serious.
P: Target radar hums.
S: Reprogrammed target radar with lyrics.
P: Mouse in cockpit.
S: Cat installed.
P: Noise coming from under instrument panel. Sounds like a midget
pounding on something with a hammer.
S: Took hammer away from midget.
do not archive
23/09/2007
13:53
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration |
Dave,
As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and
have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both
wings.
It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of downloads
on how to fill out the forms.
Notes:
Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider.
Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your
fly-off with both wings.
They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear
your Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR
to establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider
wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly are
considered and may be re-imposed).
You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.
I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa dual
wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem, he can
call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior trainer
for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny.
I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and
print. All the numbers are there.
I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening for
one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter just as
you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they are
smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and
personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and
the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft to
near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they are
mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The motor
glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude (1500
feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 KIAS.
One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a heartbeat.
As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents a
problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of
speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so
equipped.
In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct,
the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings. Yes,
you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase is 100
pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.)
CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where
full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both wings
and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings at about
60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft stick due
to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch).
I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder.
My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot
(the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown or
problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control systems)
and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely to their
design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational safety. I
am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid EAAer. So here
is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults:
Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable as
they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS.
Vne 129 KIAS
Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!)
No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and achieve
the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine Vmanuever.
RE G limit
You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to
wing/airframe stress.
I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for
someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable.
STRUCTURAL LIMIT: +3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs.
+3.5g / -1.5g at
1450 lbs.
+3.3g/-1.3 at
1550 lbs.
The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop
your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning to
for verification.
Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get
your attention. The monowheel squats even more.
Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away
with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it.
Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits,
that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different
standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why
production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit builders
in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our personal QC.
The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of this
printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of the the
PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and
adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing
them as hard as they can.
As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test pilots
together.
It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the new
all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is really
a mach limit).
Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is
altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is
480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the
note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber and
sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform determine
the effects of Mach crit.
Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure)
and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence,
windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach,
etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments
provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor
and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are
made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public
use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I
have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic
pressure) and mach effects period.
The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen,
The T-33 by the mach crit.
The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and
pressure)
You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need
to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors deemed
important.
Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be
avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back to
the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to meet
a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you!
There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have
been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the
aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport
aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional help
willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers which open
up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions that a novice
may make in a modification to the construction of his aircraft or its
operation.
All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field
experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach to
aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but work
within the system to make the product better. And all the manufacturers
listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is forums like this
where we can find out what has worked and what was done to make it work.
Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and doing the research.
Those of us who can help on these forums generally do. I lost two hours
of shop time putting together emails such as this, and I can't afford to
do it as often as I would like to weigh in. Looks like I will be
working late tonight.
I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on registration.
Off my soapbox now,
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight
813 653 4989
www.customflightcreations.com<http://www.customflightcreations.com/>
----- Original Message -----
From: David DeFord<mailto:davedeford@comcast.net>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:59 PM
Subject: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration
<davedeford@comcast.net<mailto:davedeford@comcast.net>>
We are just about ready for paint on our motorglider wings, and we
have a
few questions for other motorglider operators.
1. What are the expected stall speeds with the long wings, what are
Vno and
Va, and what is the limiting speed for airbrake extension (if any)?
2. How have people marked their airspeed indicators to show values for
both
short wings and long wings? Two concentric sets of arcs?
3. What are the C.G. limits with long wins?
4. Any hints for convincing the FAA to grant registration in two
categories
(ASEL and self-launch glider), depending on which wings are installed?
We
have been flying with the short wings for 6 years, so a change from
the
existing category and operating limitations will be required.
5. Keeping potential controversy for last, how does Vne vary with
altitude?
(The Diamond Extreme in which Terry and I recently got our self-launch
glider ratings has a placard which derates Vne from the marked value
at 6500
feet by exactly the same ratios as shown in the table for the
Pipistrel
Sinus, referenced in the article recently posted by Richard Pottorff.)
Thanks.
Dave DeFord
N135TD
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!! |
Bob,
I did it succesfully via hotmail
and gave your address. Now they
all know we live together. Is it OK
for you, my dear Bob?
Let us ALL know your exact address
so soon you will notice you live
with 1000 Europa lovers. And
"they" will know it too. Should
you ask your wife first?
Raimo
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:22 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
>
> Hi! Raimo
> Probably the address you used wasn't authentic ? Also I'm guessing your
> name may have placed a warning up or even the origin of your message.
> Hi! Kingsley
> You walked into that one good and proper !
> Regards
> To all
> Bob H
> Do not archive.
>
> Robt.C.Harrison
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo
> Toivio
> Sent: 27 September 2007 09:35
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
>
>
> Bob,
>
> I noticed. I decided to be as an "Ex.pat",
> but was blocked. How did the system
> know I am not? ;)
>
> Raimo
>
> do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:34 AM
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
>
>
> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
> >
> > Hi! Bob B/Raimo /All
> >
> > Regretfully I don't think you can assist (other than writing to "our
> > esteemed" Prime Minister!) The petition application page requires your
> > address and there is a box to use if you are an "Ex.Pat" So I guess
> > they'd have a blocking mechanism and bar your participation.
> > Yes, it is all so very very frustrating when generations past made the
> > ultimate sacrifice for us to now finish up as a damn backwater to a
> > Federal Europe.
> > My great fear is that our gullible indigenous population will let it
> all
> > happen without so much as a whimper. Only then will they realise the
> > futility of belated resistance.
> > Regards
> > Bob h G-PTAG
> >
> > Do not archive.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> > Borger
> > Sent: 26 September 2007 16:20
> > To: europa-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: Red Arrows "Too British"!!!!
> >
> >
> > Gents,
> >
> > I'd be laughing if it weren't so sad. Just another example of
> political
> > correctness gone mad. Send your guys over here to perform. Our PC
> > crowd hasn't quite crammed this pseudo-niceness that far down our
> > throats so we can enjoy the beauty and splendor of any and all aerial
> > performers, military or otherwise. I bet they'd be a real hit at
> > Oshkosh in 2012 and every year between now and 2012.
> >
> > May we colonials over here on the west side of the big pond sign your
> > petition?
> >
> > Check six,
> > Bob Borger
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, September 26, 2007, at 10:04AM, "Alan Burrows"
> > <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> wrote:
> > >Hi Guys
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >I think I may have got this wrong when I tried to send it a few mins.
> > Ago,
> > >so here goes a second time. If, like me you feel this is one step too
> > far .
> > >(I can hear Bob Harrison applauding from here). Then you may wish to
> > sign
> > >up. It?s a really quick and simple process.
> > >
> > >What do you think? I?m sure our US friends must be laughing there
> > heads off
> > >at this one!
> > >
> > >Kind Regards
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Alan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Subject: [UKaerobatics] Red Arrows & the Olymipics...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >It takes 2-seconds to submit your signature to the petition; it is a
> > >reputable, fully registered, petition site
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >The world-famous Red Arrows have been banned from appearing at the
> 2012
> > >London Olympics because they are deemed "too British".
> > >
> > >Organisers of the event say that the Arrows military background might
> > be
> > >"offensive" to other countries taking part in the Games. The display
> > team
> > >have performed at more than 4000 events worldwide, but the Department
> > of
> > >Culture, Media and Sport have deemed the display team "too
> > militaristically
> > >British". Red Arrows pilots were said to be "outraged", as they had
> > hoped to
> > >put on a truly world class display for the Games, something which had
> > never
> > >been seen before. Being axed from a British-based event for being
> "too
> > >British" is an insult - the Arrows are a symbol of Britain.
> > >
> > >The Red Arrows have been excellent ambassadors for British overseas
> > trade,
> > >as they display their British-built Hawk aircraft all over the world.
> > >
> > >The Arrows performed a short flypast in 2005 when the winning bid was
> > >announced, but their flypast at the Games was to have been truly
> > >spectacular.
> > >
> > >It is to be hoped that common sense prevails.
> > >
> > >If you disagree with this decision, sign the petition on the link
> > below?
> > >
> > > HYPERLINK
> > "http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/RedArrows2012/?ref=redArrows2012"
> > >\nhttp://petitions.-pm.gov.uk/-RedArrows2012/-?ref=redArrows20-12
> > >
> > >
> > >25/09/2007
> > >08:02
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Tire question - cannot fly before information |
All
I was flying today w my mono and one friend.
Suddenly we got some bad weather and clouds lowered
to the 600 feet from the ground. Wind was 13 knots
and 90 degrees from the right side. I was quite stressed
when landing and let is say I "forgot" to pull the stick
fully back. So I did a one wheel landing with that wind.
There was some quite sharp and fast S-turns while landing
but I managed to keep it in control and in one piece.
Now I really know why I have to have legs.
The Europa rudder must be quite effective!
I have to say I was not very proud of that landing and
so I was forced to do it again - just to show to my friend
it is possible to land straight and beautiful (and it was).
After 2nd landing we noticed the brake calliber has hit to
the tire side. I have an original Europa Titan Turf Glide
8.00-6 tire. In manual they say use 1,2 bar but I have
used to use 1,8 bar. Today - because of the cold weather
and my laziness - there was only 1,0 bar.
The brake calliber has hitted all the summer to the tire
and I have noticed earlier those "marks" only
- no significant wear almost at all. That is why I have
decided to update real Aircraft tire and to the size 7.00-6.
Now - today and with all the earlier landings
- the brake calliber has "eaten" tire side let
is say 1,0 mm (=0,04").
Somebody may think it was a "hard" landing but it
was not: my G-meter w register showed only -0,4/+1,8G.
Question:
HOW THICK IS THE SIDE OF the Titan Turf Glide?
If it is less than 2 mm - I cannot fly before new tire.
If somebody has a spare Titan tire, please measure the
side thickness. Thank you. Would like to get some
answers asap and hope it is more than 3 mm thick!
Raimo
====
OH-XRT #417, 38 hrs so far, no specified grins but very happy
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information |
Raimo,
Difficult to know how thick it is without slicing it open.
As long as you don't see any of the reinforcement material, i would not worry,
not for some local flying. But of course, order a new one right away!
But why change the concept? It should be an 8x6 tire, mine is an aircraft tire
and has no marks. The right size is available, in aircraft quality. The pressure
is advised as 18 psi or 1.2 bar.
My tire was slowly loosing air, which was caused by abrasion to a quality control
(sic) sticker in the inside of the tire.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 12
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| Subject: | motorglider V-speeds and registration |
Hi Bud,
I am Dave's partner in the Europa. In your email you suggest leaving
our plane registered as an airplane (with two sets of wings), rather
than trying to re-register it as a plane with short wings and a
motorglider with long wings, as quoted below;
'You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot
rating.'
If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched
glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally?
regards,
Terry Seaver
N135TD
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Dave,
As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and
have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both
wings.
It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of downloads
on how to fill out the forms.
Notes:
Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider.
Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your
fly-off with both wings.
They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear
your Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR
to establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider
wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly are
considered and may be re-imposed).
You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.
I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa dual
wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem, he can
call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior trainer
for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny.
I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and
print. All the numbers are there.
I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening for
one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter just as
you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they are
smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and
personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and
the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft to
near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they are
mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The motor
glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude (1500
feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 KIAS.
One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a heartbeat.
As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents a
problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of
speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so
equipped.
In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct,
the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings. Yes,
you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase is 100
pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.)
CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where
full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both wings
and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings at about
60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft stick due
to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch).
I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder.
My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot
(the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown or
problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control systems)
and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely to their
design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational safety. I
am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid EAAer. So here
is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults:
Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable as
they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS.
Vne 129 KIAS
Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!)
No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and achieve
the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine Vmanuever.
RE G limit
You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to
wing/airframe stress.
I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for
someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable.
STRUCTURAL LIMIT:
+3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs.
+3.5g / -1.5g at
1450 lbs.
+3.3g/-1.3 at
1550 lbs.
The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop
your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning to
for verification.
Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get
your attention. The monowheel squats even more.
Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away
with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it.
Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits,
that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different
standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why
production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit builders
in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our personal QC.
The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of this
printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of the the
PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and
adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing
them as hard as they can.
As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test pilots
together.
It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the new
all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is really
a mach limit).
Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is
altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is
480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the
note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber and
sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform determine
the effects of Mach crit.
Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure)
and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence,
windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach,
etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments
provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor
and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are
made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public
use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I
have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic
pressure) and mach effects period.
The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen,
The T-33 by the mach crit.
The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and
pressure)
You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need
to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors deemed
important.
Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be
avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back to
the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to meet
a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you!
There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have
been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the
aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport
aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional help
willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers which open
up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions that a novice
may make in a modification to the construction of his aircraft or its
operation.
All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field
experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach to
aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but work
within the system to make the product better. And all the manufacturers
listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is forums like this
where we can find out what has worked and what was done to make it work.
Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and doing the research.
Those of us who can help on these forums generally do. I lost two hours
of shop time putting together emails such as this, and I can't afford to
do it as often as I would like to weigh in. Looks like I will be
working late tonight.
I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on registration.
Off my soapbox now,
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight
813 653 4989
www.customflightcreations.com
Message 13
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Hi,
The discussion on the topic has been interesting - I caught the
Australian article some time ago - and it brings up another facet.
It is possible for an aircraft to climb to its Coffin Corner. I
know. I did. Coffin Corner is described as that density altitude at which
the Critical Mach No. and the stall come together as one. A knot faster and
the aircraft becomes uncontrollable, a knot slower and you stall.
What do you do? Drop the flaps? - and they tear off? No they don't.
Open the Dive Brakes? - at altitude they are ineffective (In the Vampire,
doubling the drag with them took up to 5 minutes to slow effectively). Also
the engine runs at a minimum of 80%RPM just to stay lit at great height. The
real threat is that in entering Critical mach you lose control of the
machine. You won't regain mastery until the control surfaces achieve a
'grip', lower down in thicker air. During this interval, the heart hopes the
device stays together - and it usually does.
I understand the successor to the Vampire, the Venom, carried a much
more powerful engine (which allowed it to climb even higher). This permitted
a delayed Coffin Corner but made descent even more hazardous. I was told
those so trapped actually chose to spin down rather than to run out of
oxygen waiting to increase drag.
That led on occasion to loss of a wing when the spin extended suddenly
through the tropopause and into much thicker air. I don't remember flutter
ever being mentioned.
Cheers, ferg
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration |
Hi Dave and Terry,
With full deference to my friend Bud who is the highest authority in the
US on all matters Europa, let me just say that you can, if you wish
obtain the Op Lim letter exactly as you wish. Indeed, my OpLim for
N224XS is written exactly that way: when the long wings are installed
the aircraft is a glider, self-launch, and when the short wings installed,
a single engine airplane. All you need do is find a DAR who will write it
up that way. When I registered my plane, the local DAR refused to see
things my way, so I consulted the EAA and they recommended several
other DARs who were more up-to-date and flexible.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136891#136891
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration |
Bud
Your time and patience are much apreciated. There is no substitute for
experience and my thanks go to anyone willing to share it. There are a
quite a few on this list which make it well worth the time spent reading it.
One minor rant from me, "there is no such thing as a daft question"
Graham
ALAN YERLY wrote:
> Dave,
> As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and
> have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both wings.
>
> It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of downloads
> on how to fill out the forms.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information |
Raimo
I wonder if the basic requirement to avoid the S's all over the runway
is to never let the airplane land until the stick is on the back stop?
I flew Europa monos for 5 years until one day, in another Europa I had
never landed before I S'd all over. It happened twice in that airplane.
Checking tailplane deflections after the first event showed not enough
up elevator so no downforce.
Graham
Raimo Toivio wrote:
> All
>
> I was flying today w my mono and one friend.
> Suddenly we got some bad weather and clouds lowered
> to the 600 feet from the ground. Wind was 13 knots
> and 90 degrees from the right side. I was quite stressed
> when landing and let is say I "forgot" to pull the stick
> fully back. So I did a one wheel landing with that wind.
> There was some quite sharp and fast S-turns while landing
> but I managed to keep it in control and in one piece.
> Raimo
> ====
> OH-XRT #417, 38 hrs so far, no specified grins but very happy
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration |
Terry,
In my conversations with the FAA Registration branch and Airworthiness
branch it was a unanimous yes. I was as shocked as you. As an example,
consider an LSA pilot flying a certified champ under LSA rules, the
airplane meets the requirement that the pilot is flying under, yet a
private pilot can fly the same plane under the private pilot privledges.
Therefore, they must also allow a glider pilot with the proper motor
glider endorsements fly any motor glider. A Single engine land aircraft
certified pilot, can fly a Europa motor glider as an airplane. But if
the plane is registered as a glider he cannot fly without a glider
rating. I found it interesting that the FAA does not have a motorglider
registration. The aircraft is either a glider or an airplane. With a
couple of exceptions in their own certification goof ups. (Last I
talked to Helen in registration, they were looking for an answer on how
they were going to correct it, but it affects so few, they may not do a
thing. You may put anything on the registration request form and it can
get typed in as you put it down, but that doesn't mean it is correct
according to their regs. )
I found the Oklahoma FAA pros to be very much can do. Focused on what
we can do, and eager to help rather than prohibit. Your local FSDO may
not see it this way on a ramp check, because most of them have no
experience in an aircraft which can be flown as airplane and motor
glider, nor do they have much experience with gliders, but they do
understand the pilot ratings...
Feel free to call your FSDO and have him talk to Les or Brad.
Interesting, isn't it.
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Seaver (terrys)<mailto:terrys@cisco.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 4:23 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Hi Bud,
I am Dave's partner in the Europa. In your email you suggest leaving
our plane registered as an airplane (with two sets of wings), rather
than trying to re-register it as a plane with short wings and a
motorglider with long wings, as quoted below;
'You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot
rating.'
If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched
glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally?
regards,
Terry Seaver
N135TD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:46 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com; davedeford@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration
Dave,
As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and
have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both
wings.
It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of
downloads on how to fill out the forms.
Notes:
Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider.
Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your
fly-off with both wings.
They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear
your Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR
to establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider
wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly are
considered and may be re-imposed).
You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot
rating.
I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa
dual wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem,
he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior
trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny.
I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and
print. All the numbers are there.
I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening
for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter
just as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they
are smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and
personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and
the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft to
near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they are
mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The motor
glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude (1500
feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 KIAS.
One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a heartbeat.
As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents
a problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of
speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so
equipped.
In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct,
the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings. Yes,
you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase is 100
pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.)
CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where
full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both wings
and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings at about
60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft stick due
to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch).
I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder.
My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot
(the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown or
problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control systems)
and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely to their
design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational safety. I
am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid EAAer. So here
is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults:
Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable
as they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS.
Vne 129 KIAS
Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!)
No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and
achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine
Vmanuever.
RE G limit
You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to
wing/airframe stress.
I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for
someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable.
STRUCTURAL LIMIT: +3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs.
+3.5g / -1.5g at
1450 lbs.
+3.3g/-1.3 at
1550 lbs.
The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop
your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning to
for verification.
Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get
your attention. The monowheel squats even more.
Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away
with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it.
Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits,
that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different
standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why
production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit builders
in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our personal QC.
The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of
this printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of the
the PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and
adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing
them as hard as they can.
As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test
pilots together.
It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the
new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is
really a mach limit).
Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is
altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is
480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the
note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber and
sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform determine
the effects of Mach crit.
Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure)
and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence,
windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach,
etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments
provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor
and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are
made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public
use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I
have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic
pressure) and mach effects period.
The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen,
The T-33 by the mach crit.
The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and
pressure)
You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need
to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors deemed
important.
Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be
avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back to
the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to meet
a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you!
There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have
been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the
aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport
aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional help
willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers which open
up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions that a novice
may make in a modification to the construction of his aircraft or its
operation.
All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field
experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach to
aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but work
within the system to make the product better. And all the manufacturers
listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is forums like this
where we can find out what has worked and what was done to make it work.
Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and doing the research.
Those of us who can help on these forums generally do. I lost two hours
of shop time putting together emails such as this, and I can't afford to
do it as often as I would like to weigh in. Looks like I will be
working late tonight.
I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on
registration.
Off my soapbox now,
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight
813 653 4989
www.customflightcreations.com<http://www.customflightcreations.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration |
Graham,
You're a saint.
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: Graham Singleton<mailto:grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com<mailto:grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>>
Bud
Your time and patience are much apreciated. There is no substitute for
experience and my thanks go to anyone willing to share it. There are a
quite a few on this list which make it well worth the time spent
reading it.
One minor rant from me, "there is no such thing as a daft question"
Graham
ALAN YERLY wrote:
> Dave,
> As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas
and
> have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both
wings.
>
> It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of
downloads
> on how to fill out the forms.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration |
Ira is correct and thank you for the note on the Ops limits. That is
the area in which the DAR defines the aircraft limitations. I too had
to search for a DAR that was willing to do the research, and we both
worked with the FAA Pros who made it all happen.
Bud
----- Original Message -----
From: rampil<mailto:ira.rampil@gmail.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:20 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration
<ira.rampil@gmail.com<mailto:ira.rampil@gmail.com>>
Hi Dave and Terry,
With full deference to my friend Bud who is the highest authority in
the
US on all matters Europa, let me just say that you can, if you wish
obtain the Op Lim letter exactly as you wish. Indeed, my OpLim for
N224XS is written exactly that way: when the long wings are installed
the aircraft is a glider, self-launch, and when the short wings
installed,
a single engine airplane. All you need do is find a DAR who will write
it
up that way. When I registered my plane, the local DAR refused to see
things my way, so I consulted the EAA and they recommended several
other DARs who were more up-to-date and flexible.
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136891#136891<http://forums
matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136891#136891>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Europa-List>
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| Subject: | Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration |
Terry,
I'm sure you remember David Anderson. He lost his medical when he got a
defibrillator, built a MotorGlider and flew it as a self launch until he
had the defib removed and got his 1st class medical back. So the answer
is yes you fly it with your glider rating which doesn't require a medical.
Ralph
MG 914 five years in the build, ugh!
Reno, NV
Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:
> Hi Bud,
> I am Dave's partner in the Europa. In your email you suggest leaving
> our plane registered as an airplane (with two sets of wings), rather
> than trying to re-register it as a plane with short wings and a
> motorglider with long wings, as quoted below;
> 'You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.'
> If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched
> glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally?
> regards,
> Terry Seaver
> N135TD
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *ALAN YERLY
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:46 AM
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com; davedeford@comcast.net
> *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration
>
> Dave,
> As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and
> have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both
> wings.
> It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of
> downloads on how to fill out the forms.
> Notes:
> Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider.
> Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your
> fly-off with both wings.
> They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear your
> Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR to
> establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider
> wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly
> are considered and may be re-imposed).
> You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.
> I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa
> dual wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem,
> he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior
> trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny.
> I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and
> print. All the numbers are there.
> I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening
> for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter
> just as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they
> are smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and
> personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and
> the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft
> to near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they
> are mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The
> motor glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude
> (1500 feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115
> KIAS. One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a
> heartbeat.
> As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents a
> problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of
> speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so
> equipped.
> In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct,
> the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings.
> Yes, you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase
> is 100 pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.)
> CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where
> full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both
> wings and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings
> at about 60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft
> stick due to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch).
> I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder.
> My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot
> (the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown
> or problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control
> systems) and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely
> to their design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational
> safety. I am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid
> EAAer. So here is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults:
> Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable
> as they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS.
> Vne 129 KIAS
> Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!)
> No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and
> achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine
> Vmanuever.
> RE G limit
> You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to
> wing/airframe stress.
> I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for
> someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable.
> **
> *STRUCTURAL LIMIT: *
> *+3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs.*
> **
> **
>
> *+3.5g / -1.5g at *
> *1450 lbs.*
> **
> **
>
> *+3.3g/-1.3 at *
> *1550 lbs.*
> **
> **
>
> The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop
> your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning
> to for verification.
> Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get
> your attention. The monowheel squats even more.
> Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away
> with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it.
> Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits,
> that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different
> standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why
> production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit
> builders in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our
> personal QC.
> The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of
> this printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of
> the the PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and
> adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing
> them as hard as they can.
> As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test
> pilots together.
> It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the
> new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is
> really a mach limit).
> Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is
> altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is
> 480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the
> note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber
> and sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform
> determine the effects of Mach crit.
> Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure)
> and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence,
> windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach,
> etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments
> provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor
> and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are
> made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public
> use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I
> have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic
> pressure) and mach effects period.
> The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen,
> The T-33 by the mach crit.
> The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and
> pressure)
> You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need
> to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors
> deemed important.
> Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be
> avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back
> to the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to
> meet a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you!
> There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have
> been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the
> aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport
> aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional
> help willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers
> which open up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions
> that a novice may make in a modification to the construction of his
> aircraft or its operation.
> All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field
> experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach
> to aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but
> work within the system to make the product better. And all the
> manufacturers listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is
> forums like this where we can find out what has worked and what was
> done to make it work. Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and
> doing the research. Those of us who can help on these forums generally
> do. I lost two hours of shop time putting together emails such as
> this, and I cant afford to do it as often as I would like to weigh
> in. Looks like I will be working late tonight.
> I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on registration.
> Off my soapbox now,
> Bud Yerly
> Custom Flight
> 813 653 4989
> www.customflightcreations.com <http://www.customflightcreations.com>
> *
>
>
> *
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