---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/28/07: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:20 AM - Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information (David Watts) 2. 02:20 AM - Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information (Raimo Toivio) 3. 02:45 AM - Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information (Raimo Toivio) 4. 03:03 AM - Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information (Raimo Toivio) 5. 08:25 AM - Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) (Carl Pattinson) 6. 09:19 AM - Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information (David Watts) 7. 01:07 PM - Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration (Paul McAllister) 8. 01:33 PM - Re: Tire question - cannot fly before information (karelvranken) 9. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) (Les James) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:29 AM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information Raimo, I have never actually cut one of the factory supplied tyres open, but after a couple of years of operating it I got a puncture (luckily on taxi out). To try and find the small point that had caused it I placed my hand inside the tyre with the other on the outside. I have to say that the rubber material is very, very thin and although I re-used the tyre (after repair to the tube) for a few weeks, I straight away got in a replacement regualr aircraft tyre (which Europa now supply). This has several advantages. Thicker rubber, stiffer wall (less sideways roll) and more clearance with the undercarriage frame legs. I know this is not the firm measurement that you required, but personally, if there was any piont scoring, as you would get with a brake calliper score mark, I would definitely not use the tyre. Whilst we used the original tyre, we did have some marks made my the undercarriage legs, but that was more like a polishing mark than a scored mark, and whilst I wasn't happy with it, I did put up with it, whilst monitoring it all the time. Dave Watts Europa Mono Classic 229 with 1250 hrs. I was flying today w my mono and one friend. Suddenly we got some bad weather and clouds lowered to the 600 feet from the ground. Wind was 13 knots and 90 degrees from the right side. I was quite stressed when landing and let is say I "forgot" to pull the stick fully back. So I did a one wheel landing with that wind. There was some quite sharp and fast S-turns while landing but I managed to keep it in control and in one piece. Now I really know why I have to have legs. The Europa rudder must be quite effective! I have to say I was not very proud of that landing and so I was forced to do it again - just to show to my friend it is possible to land straight and beautiful (and it was). After 2nd landing we noticed the brake calliber has hit to the tire side. I have an original Europa Titan Turf Glide 8.00-6 tire. In manual they say use 1,2 bar but I have used to use 1,8 bar. Today - because of the cold weather and my laziness - there was only 1,0 bar. The brake calliber has hitted all the summer to the tire and I have noticed earlier those "marks" only - no significant wear almost at all. That is why I have decided to update real Aircraft tire and to the size 7.00-6. Now - today and with all the earlier landings - the brake calliber has "eaten" tire side let is say 1,0 mm (=0,04"). Somebody may think it was a "hard" landing but it was not: my G-meter w register showed only -0,4/+1,8G. Question: HOW THICK IS THE SIDE OF the Titan Turf Glide? If it is less than 2 mm - I cannot fly before new tire. If somebody has a spare Titan tire, please measure the side thickness. Thank you. Would like to get some answers asap and hope it is more than 3 mm thick! Raimo ==== OH-XRT #417, 38 hrs so far, no specified grins but very happy ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:09 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information Jos are you sure there is reinforcement material in the sides also??? My tire is too fat and wanna have slightly narrower one. Cannot understand what is the reason you have no tire contact to the brake calliber! Same size, same stuff ! Earlier I asked recommendations for tire and most of us prefer AirTrac 7.00-6. My idea was to change tire during winterstop, but obviously I have to do it immediately if I want to fly. Just hate that job! I know succested pressure is 1,2 bar but I still do like to use 1,8 bar as do many other Europa mono pilots too. We should have our DOTH soon - we could compare our tire-brake calliber combination. Wishes, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information > > Raimo, > > Difficult to know how thick it is without slicing it open. > As long as you don't see any of the reinforcement material, i would not worry, not for some local flying. But of course, order a new one right away! > But why change the concept? It should be an 8x6 tire, mine is an aircraft tire and has no marks. The right size is available, in aircraft quality. The pressure is advised as 18 psi or 1.2 bar. > My tire was slowly loosing air, which was caused by abrasion to a quality control (sic) sticker in the inside of the tire. > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:54 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information Graham My tailplane declections are perfect. I got Ss because I was careless! My fault - plane is perfect! I have completed so far about 100 landings and no difficulties at all. My most demanding landing was so far in Endealave during fly-inn three weeks ago. Wind was 24G38, headwind, grass runway, lenght 600 metres. Stefan Ingemarsson from Sweden did it also succesfully. Wishes, Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 2:42 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information > > Raimo > I wonder if the basic requirement to avoid the S's all over the runway > is to never let the airplane land until the stick is on the back stop? > I flew Europa monos for 5 years until one day, in another Europa I had > never landed before I S'd all over. It happened twice in that airplane. > Checking tailplane deflections after the first event showed not enough > up elevator so no downforce. > Graham > > Raimo Toivio wrote: > > All > > > > I was flying today w my mono and one friend. > > Suddenly we got some bad weather and clouds lowered > > to the 600 feet from the ground. Wind was 13 knots > > and 90 degrees from the right side. I was quite stressed > > when landing and let is say I "forgot" to pull the stick > > fully back. So I did a one wheel landing with that wind. > > There was some quite sharp and fast S-turns while landing > > but I managed to keep it in control and in one piece. > > > Raimo > > ==== > > OH-XRT #417, 38 hrs so far, no specified grins but very happy > > > > > > -- > Graham Singleton > > Tel: +441629820187 > Mob: +447739582005 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:51 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information Thanks Dave for safety information! Now I know it is "thin". It will be quite an interesting moment, when I next time land with that tire! I still would like to know to make my conclusions: 1) what is the exact thickness of the original tire side? Somebody has an uninstalled tire /tyre - please could he measure it? 2) are there some reinforcement material in the sides also as Jos suppose? I am talking about Titan Turf Glide tire. 3) why I have some slightly contact with tire and brake calliber? Is it only my problem? If I change to the size 7.00-6, that contact is away - am I right? 4) what happens when landing with empty mono main wheel? Or when it bangs during first touch? Total catastrophe or what? If so I hope nobody know! Have a nice weekend, Raimo =================== OH-XRT #417, flying w broken main tire... ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Watts" Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:19 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information > > Raimo, > > I have never actually cut one of the factory supplied tyres open, but after > a couple of years of operating it I got a puncture (luckily on taxi out). To > try and find the small point that had caused it I placed my hand inside the > tyre with the other on the outside. > > I have to say that the rubber material is very, very thin and although I > re-used the tyre (after repair to the tube) for a few weeks, I straight away > got in a replacement regualr aircraft tyre (which Europa now supply). This > has several advantages. Thicker rubber, stiffer wall (less sideways roll) > and more clearance with the undercarriage frame legs. > > I know this is not the firm measurement that you required, but personally, > if there was any piont scoring, as you would get with a brake calliper score > mark, I would definitely not use the tyre. Whilst we used the original tyre, > we did have some marks made my the undercarriage legs, but that was more > like a polishing mark than a scored mark, and whilst I wasn't happy with it, > I did put up with it, whilst monitoring it all the time. > > Dave Watts > Europa Mono Classic 229 with 1250 hrs. > > I was flying today w my mono and one friend. > Suddenly we got some bad weather and clouds lowered > to the 600 feet from the ground. Wind was 13 knots > and 90 degrees from the right side. I was quite stressed > when landing and let is say I "forgot" to pull the stick > fully back. So I did a one wheel landing with that wind. > There was some quite sharp and fast S-turns while landing > but I managed to keep it in control and in one piece. > Now I really know why I have to have legs. > The Europa rudder must be quite effective! > I have to say I was not very proud of that landing and > so I was forced to do it again - just to show to my friend > it is possible to land straight and beautiful (and it was). > > After 2nd landing we noticed the brake calliber has hit to > the tire side. I have an original Europa Titan Turf Glide > 8.00-6 tire. In manual they say use 1,2 bar but I have > used to use 1,8 bar. Today - because of the cold weather > and my laziness - there was only 1,0 bar. > > The brake calliber has hitted all the summer to the tire > and I have noticed earlier those "marks" only > - no significant wear almost at all. That is why I have > decided to update real Aircraft tire and to the size 7.00-6. > Now - today and with all the earlier landings > - the brake calliber has "eaten" tire side let > is say 1,0 mm (=0,04"). > > Somebody may think it was a "hard" landing but it > was not: my G-meter w register showed only -0,4/+1,8G. > > Question: > > HOW THICK IS THE SIDE OF the Titan Turf Glide? > > If it is less than 2 mm - I cannot fly before new tire. > If somebody has a spare Titan tire, please measure the > side thickness. Thank you. Would like to get some > answers asap and hope it is more than 3 mm thick! > > Raimo > ==== > OH-XRT #417, 38 hrs so far, no specified grins but very happy > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:06 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) From: "Carl Pattinson" John, Having tracked down the VLA specs I had a look at what it had to say about prop clearances. Unless I am very much mistaken I dont beleive the tyre should be deflated to achieve the 230mm clearance. Here is the actual wording "(a) Ground clearance. There must be a clearance of at least 180 mm (for each aeroplane with nose wheel landing gear) or 230 mm (for each aeroplane with tail wheel landing gear) between each propeller and the ground with the landing gear statically deflected and in the level, normal take-off, or taxying attitude, whichever is most critical. In addition, for each aeroplane with conventional landing gear struts using fluid or mechanical means for absorbing landing shocks, there must be positive clearance between the propeller and the ground in the level take-off attitude with the critical tyre completely deflated and the corresponding landing gear strut bottomed." If my interpretation is right there have to be two checks made. You first load the aircraft up to its maximum weight and the clearance has to be in excess of 230mm, then you deflate the tyre and there should then be what they describe as "positive clearance" . Having said this my understanding is that most Classic Europas would fail the VLA test even with the 1575 blade fitted (ie: the Warp Drive). However the ruling is not retrospective so should not affect existing approved installatons. Apparently the XS monos are not similarly affected because the XS engine mount raises the propeller by about 1.5" (compared to the mono. Consequently the 1625mm prop can be approved. None of which is any help to me - it seems the Woodcomp is a non starter. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137002#137002 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:32 AM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information Raimo, I witnessed Jim Naylor have a blowout as he touched down at our grass strip at Laddingford. It was not a total disaster, he just stopped VERY VERY quickly. He thought he had the brake on, and just made sure he kept full back stick. Dave Watts Europa Mono Classic 229 with 1250 hrs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raimo Toivio" > 4) what happens when landing with empty mono main wheel? > Or when it bangs during first touch? > Total catastrophe or what? > If so I hope nobody know! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:37 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration and... if I recall correctly David told me that a quirk of the regs allowed him to fly a motor glider IFR !! On 9/27/07, Ralph K. Hallett III wrote: > > Terry, > I'm sure you remember David Anderson. He lost his medical when he got a > defibrillator, built a MotorGlider and flew it as a self launch until he > had the defib removed and got his 1st class medical back. So the answer > is yes you fly it with your glider rating which doesn't require a medical. > Ralph > MG 914 five years in the build, ugh! > Reno, NV > > Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote: > > Hi Bud, > > I am Dave's partner in the Europa. In your email you suggest leaving > > our plane registered as an airplane (with two sets of wings), rather > > than trying to re-register it as a plane with short wings and a > > motorglider with long wings, as quoted below; > > 'You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.' > > If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched > > glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally? > > regards, > > Terry Seaver > > N135TD > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *ALAN YERLY > > *Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:46 AM > > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com; davedeford@comcast.net > > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: motorglider V-speeds and registration > > > > Dave, > > As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and > > have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both > > wings. > > It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of > > downloads on how to fill out the forms. > > Notes: > > Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider. > > Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your > > fly-off with both wings. > > They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear your > > Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR to > > establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider > > wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly > > are considered and may be re-imposed). > > You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating. > > I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa > > dual wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem, > > he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior > > trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny. > > I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and > > print. All the numbers are there. > > I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening > > for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter > > just as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they > > are smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and > > personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and > > the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft > > to near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they > > are mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The > > motor glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude > > (1500 feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 > > KIAS. One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a > > heartbeat. > > As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents a > > problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of > > speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so > > equipped. > > In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct, > > the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings. > > Yes, you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase > > is 100 pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.) > > CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where > > full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both > > wings and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings > > at about 60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft > > stick due to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch). > > I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder. > > My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot > > (the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown > > or problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control > > systems) and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely > > to their design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational > > safety. I am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid > > EAAer. So here is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults: > > Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable > > as they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS. > > Vne 129 KIAS > > Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!) > > No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and > > achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine > > Vmanuever. > > RE G limit > > You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to > > wing/airframe stress. > > I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for > > someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable. > > ** > > *STRUCTURAL LIMIT: * > > *+3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs.* > > ** > > ** > > > > *+3.5g / -1.5g at * > > *1450 lbs.* > > ** > > ** > > > > *+3.3g/-1.3 at * > > *1550 lbs.* > > ** > > ** > > > > The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop > > your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning > > to for verification. > > Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get > > your attention. The monowheel squats even more. > > Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away > > with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it. > > Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits, > > that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different > > standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why > > production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit > > builders in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our > > personal QC. > > The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of > > this printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of > > the the PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and > > adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing > > them as hard as they can. > > As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test > > pilots together. > > It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the > > new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is > > really a mach limit). > > Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is > > altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is > > 480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the > > note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber > > and sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform > > determine the effects of Mach crit. > > Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure) > > and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence, > > windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach, > > etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments > > provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor > > and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are > > made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public > > use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I > > have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic > > pressure) and mach effects period. > > The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen, > > The T-33 by the mach crit. > > The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and > > pressure) > > You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need > > to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors > > deemed important. > > Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be > > avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back > > to the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to > > meet a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you! > > There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have > > been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the > > aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport > > aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional > > help willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers > > which open up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions > > that a novice may make in a modification to the construction of his > > aircraft or its operation. > > All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field > > experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach > > to aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but > > work within the system to make the product better. And all the > > manufacturers listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is > > forums like this where we can find out what has worked and what was > > done to make it work. Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and > > doing the research. Those of us who can help on these forums generally > > do. I lost two hours of shop time putting together emails such as > > this, and I can't afford to do it as often as I would like to weigh > > in. Looks like I will be working late tonight. > > I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on registration. > > Off my soapbox now, > > Bud Yerly > > Custom Flight > > 813 653 4989 > > www.customflightcreations.com > > * > > > > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:34 PM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information Dear Raimo, The tickness of the tire side is 7 mm. From the inside it looks like fabric impression, so I suppose it is reinforced. 3) yes. 4) So far I have no experience and I will not do it for you. S landings occur when you drink Koskenkorva vodka before flight. SS landings happened during WWII. Friendly yours, Karel Vranken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raimo Toivio" Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 12:12 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tire question - cannot fly before information > 1) what is the exact thickness of the original > tire side? Somebody has an uninstalled tire /tyre > - please could he measure it? > > 2) are there some reinforcement material in the sides also > as Jos suppose? I am talking about Titan Turf Glide tire. > > 3) why I have some slightly contact with tire and brake calliber? > Is it only my problem? If I change to the size 7.00-6, > that contact is away - am I right? > > 4) what happens when landing with empty mono main wheel? > Or when it bangs during first touch? > Total catastrophe or what? > If so I hope nobody know! > > Have a nice weekend, Raimo > =================== > OH-XRT #417, flying w broken main tire... > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:10:26 PM PST US From: "Les James" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:23 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp scimitar blades (was Emailing: IMG_0410, IMG_0411) > > > John, > > Having tracked down the VLA specs I had a look at what it had to say about > prop clearances. Unless I am very much mistaken I dont beleive the tyre > should be deflated to achieve the 230mm clearance. > > Here is the actual wording > > "(a) Ground clearance. There must be a clearance of at least 180 mm (for > each aeroplane with nose wheel landing gear) or 230 mm (for each aeroplane > with tail wheel landing gear) between each propeller and the ground with > the landing gear statically deflected and in the level, normal take-off, > or taxying attitude, whichever is most critical. In addition, for each > aeroplane with conventional landing gear struts using fluid or mechanical > means for absorbing landing shocks, there must be positive clearance > between the propeller and the ground in the level take-off attitude with > the critical tyre completely deflated and the corresponding landing gear > strut bottomed." > > If my interpretation is right there have to be two checks made. You first > load the aircraft up to its maximum weight and the clearance has to be in > excess of 230mm, then you deflate the tyre and there should then be what > they describe as "positive clearance" . > > Having said this my understanding is that most Classic Europas would fail > the VLA test even with the 1575 blade fitted (ie: the Warp Drive). However > the ruling is not retrospective so should not affect existing approved > installatons. > > Apparently the XS monos are not similarly affected because the XS engine > mount raises the propeller by about 1.5" (compared to the mono. > Consequently the 1625mm prop can be approved. > > None of which is any help to me - it seems the Woodcomp is a non starter. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137002#137002 > > > -- > 9/27/2007 5:00 PM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.