---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/23/07: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:45 AM - Re: Mod 73 alternative (craig bastin) 2. 04:11 AM - Re: Mod 73 alternative (Peter Zutrauen) 3. 04:51 AM - Re: Mod 73 alternative (craig bastin) 4. 07:45 AM - Re: Mod 73 alternative (Rob Housman) 5. 11:14 AM - Re: Europa Owners in Central Florida (Jhleuropa@aol.com) 6. 11:58 AM - Re: Mod 73 alternative (Karl Heindl) 7. 12:49 PM - Re: Mod 73 alternative (Rob Housman) 8. 01:09 PM - firewall fitings (Paul Stewart) 9. 01:50 PM - Re: Mod 73 alternative (Karl Heindl) 10. 04:19 PM - Re: Mod 73 alternative (Graham Singleton) 11. 04:22 PM - Tailplane slots in fuselage (Fred Klein) 12. 04:58 PM - Re: Mod 73 alternative (Rob Housman) 13. 05:17 PM - Re: Tailplane slots in fuselage (Rob Housman) 14. 07:40 PM - Re: Tailplane slots in fuselage (Rman) 15. 08:08 PM - Re: Tailplane slots in fuselage (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:19 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative I did simmilar at the build stage, replaced the whole lot with alloy tube and ran it about another 100mm into the outer foam past where tp6 would finish. weight increase over the tp5 and tp6 was about 300 grams, but the tp5 replacement option looks like a good one instead of all that cutting glassing foam, more glassing etc. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: Tuesday, 23 October 2007 10:56 AM Subject: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative My original plan was to replace both TP5 and TP6 with a single tube. After removing the TP5 I realized that there was no point at all in removing the TP6. It is only necessary to ensure that it cannot move inboard, which would then allow the TP12 to disconnect from the tailplane etc. etc. I simply replaced the TP5 with a longer alu tube from ACS, part number 03-37900. This butts right up against the TP6, and there is no way this can ever move inboard. The tube is made of 6061 T6 aluminum. Advantages: A straightforward mod. No cutting into the tailplane. No misalignment problem with TP5 and TP6. A permanent solution. ( assuming that there was a problem in the first place.) If anyone is interested I can give more details on how I did it. Cheers, Karl _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk 7:57 PM 7:57 PM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:37 AM PST US From: "Peter Zutrauen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative Hi Karl, The only concern I would have is dissimilar metal corrosion on the torque tube. Not sure how to prevent it between the alu and the torque tube plating besides lots of grease. I suspect that the grease will not be enough however. With the sliding on/off and then sitting in one spot, I would expect some metal on metal contact with the grease being wiped off. Hope I'm wrong, but I've seen too much dissimilar metal corrosion in a variety of situations. Cheers, Pete On 10/22/07, Karl Heindl wrote: > > > > My original plan was to replace both TP5 and TP6 with a single tube. > After removing the TP5 I realized that there was no point at all in > removing > the TP6. It is only necessary to ensure that it cannot move inboard, which > would then allow the TP12 to disconnect from the tailplane etc. etc. > I simply replaced the TP5 with a longer alu tube from ACS, part number > 03-37900. This butts right up against the TP6, and there is no way this > can > ever move inboard. The tube is made of 6061 T6 aluminum. > Advantages: > A straightforward mod. > No cutting into the tailplane. > No misalignment problem with TP5 and TP6. > A permanent solution. ( assuming that there was a problem in the first > place.) > If anyone is interested I can give more details on how I did it. > > Cheers, > > Karl > > _________________________________________________________________ > The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:07 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative A couple of sacrificial annodes would resolve the issue of corrosion I think, same as on outboard motors for boats but it is a good point, or if you had the clearance, maybe powder coating the torque tube, or caster oil, only problem with caster oil is it remains tacky, as all the data i have seen on caster oil suggests the only way to remove it completely from a metalic surface is to machine about 1mm off the surface you could simulate an accelerated situation by putting the old bush (tp5) and a piece of the alloy tube in a salt water bath for a week and see what happens, ideally in the same relation as in the aircraft ie one inside the other. just had another thought, maybe a teflon treatment might do the trick on the torque tube or both if you have done the mod yet it would make the tube real easy to get on and off too. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Peter Zutrauen Sent: Tuesday, 23 October 2007 9:11 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative Hi Karl, The only concern I would have is dissimilar metal corrosion on the torque tube. Not sure how to prevent it between the alu and the torque tube plating besides lots of grease. I suspect that the grease will not be enough however. With the sliding on/off and then sitting in one spot, I would expect some metal on metal contact with the grease being wiped off. Hope I'm wrong, but I've seen too much dissimilar metal corrosion in a variety of situations. Cheers, Pete On 10/22/07, Karl Heindl wrote: My original plan was to replace both TP5 and TP6 with a single tube. After removing the TP5 I realized that there was no point at all in removing the TP6. It is only necessary to ensure that it cannot move inboard, which would then allow the TP12 to disconnect from the tailplane etc. etc. I simply replaced the TP5 with a longer alu tube from ACS, part number 03-37900. This butts right up against the TP6, and there is no way this can ever move inboard. The tube is made of 6061 T6 aluminum. Advantages: A straightforward mod. No cutting into the tailplane. No misalignment problem with TP5 and TP6. A permanent solution. ( assuming that there was a problem in the first place.) If anyone is interested I can give more details on how I did it. Cheers, Karl _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! 7:57 PM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:09 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative You are on the right track Craig, but you missed the obvious - aluminum is a sacrificial anode relative to the nickel plated tube. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:52 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative A couple of sacrificial annodes would resolve the issue of corrosion I think, same as on outboard motors for boats but it is a good point, or if you had the clearance, maybe powder coating the torque tube, or caster oil, only problem with caster oil is it remains tacky, as all the data i have seen on caster oil suggests the only way to remove it completely from a metalic surface is to machine about 1mm off the surface you could simulate an accelerated situation by putting the old bush (tp5) and a piece of the alloy tube in a salt water bath for a week and see what happens, ideally in the same relation as in the aircraft ie one inside the other. just had another thought, maybe a teflon treatment might do the trick on the torque tube or both if you have done the mod yet it would make the tube real easy to get on and off too. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Peter Zutrauen Sent: Tuesday, 23 October 2007 9:11 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative Hi Karl, The only concern I would have is dissimilar metal corrosion on the torque tube. Not sure how to prevent it between the alu and the torque tube plating besides lots of grease. I suspect that the grease will not be enough however. With the sliding on/off and then sitting in one spot, I would expect some metal on metal contact with the grease being wiped off. Hope I'm wrong, but I've seen too much dissimilar metal corrosion in a variety of situations. Cheers, Pete On 10/22/07, Karl Heindl wrote: > My original plan was to replace both TP5 and TP6 with a single tube. After removing the TP5 I realized that there was no point at all in removing the TP6. It is only necessary to ensure that it cannot move inboard, which would then allow the TP12 to disconnect from the tailplane etc. etc. I simply replaced the TP5 with a longer alu tube from ACS, part number 03-37900. This butts right up against the TP6, and there is no way this can ever move inboard. The tube is made of 6061 T6 aluminum. Advantages: A straightforward mod. No cutting into the tailplane. No misalignment problem with TP5 and TP6. A permanent solution. ( assuming that there was a problem in the first place.) If anyone is interested I can give more details on how I did it. Cheers, Karl _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:22 AM PST US From: Jhleuropa@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Owners in Central Florida Hi Pete, Thanks for your response. We get to Bradenton on 29th Oct. We have friends in Englewood and we go down that way from time to time. If we do, I will give you a call. Our Florida number is : 941 723 3309. Hope to meet you sometime. Regards, John. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:58:07 AM PST US From: "Karl Heindl" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative Hi Bill and Sue, Some builders pointed out a potential corrosion problem with my choice of aluminum. There are other choices. George Powell obtained a steel tube from a builder in Germany, and whoever supplies the TP5/TP6 to Europa would obviously also be able to supply a longer cut. I like the idea of a Teflon coat on the TP4, but wouldn't have a clue on how to apply it. I am not really concerned about the corrosion issue. The torque tube is prone to corrosion anyway, when moisture is present. I have seen the corrosion on the exterior of other Europas, and if the exterior corrodes then you can be sure that the tube's interior is corroded as well, unless the necessary steps were taken before assembly . I always apply a good coat of lithium grease, and the tailplanes should be pulled off at least twice a year for a n inspection. I never had a problem in that area. Removal of TP5: I tried it the hard way by making a micro oven inside an aluminum tube, using a 20W halogen bulb and an oven thermometer with a remote probe for accurate temperature control. The thermometer had an upper display limit of 200 degrees, and that was not hot enough to soften the redux I had used as an adhesive. I have now seen another oven thermometer with a much higher limit, but I have discarded that technique, unless I wanted to remove the TP6. Using the same tube, and with the inside opening sealed with a heatresistent material (felt chair glides), I applied a good dose of heat with a blowtorch. The tailplane is in an upright position, so that no heat finds its way into the foam area. Using a narrow kitchen knife I probed the adhesive on the outside of the TP5. When the redux had softened enough I removed the heat and cut around the TP5 with the same knife, which had a serrated edge and I was using it like a saw. For the removal of the tube you need a locking pair of longnose pliers. Lock it onto the edge and slowly remove the thing with a turning motion. You may have to cut away a tiny bit of the plywood rib (2 x 5mm) to make room for the pliers. Now having said all that, I suggest you ignore the two techniques above. Next time I would simply use the knife and heat it with a blowtorch before cutting into the adhesive. I didn't do any damage to the foam. Installing the new TP5: You need a small flashlight so you can see exactly what is inside the tailplane. Do a trial fit of the new tube and see if it butts right up against the TP6. If there is any adhesive on the edge of the TP6, then don't disturb it, but grind a piece out of the edge of the long tube. I had to do that on both sides. Once you have a satisfactory fit, mark the tube where it needs to be cut off. I used a hacksaw and belt sander to do the necessary trimming. Now take the tailplane and do a trial dry fit on the aircraft. Remove the new TP5. Use a narrow long spatula to apply floxed epoxy to the foam walls and over the old adhesive. The flox should be fairly wet, and you need only coat the first two thirds of the hole. Put a liberal coat of neat epoxy on the tube exterior and insert it slowly with a turning motion. The tailplane is in the horizontalposition, and at the halfway mark remove the surplus flox which has been pushed ahead of the tube. Remove more flox again when the tube is fully inserted. Now take some time to remove alltrace of adhesive inside the tubes. I used rags dampened with acetone, on a long stick. I believe that vinegar can also be used, if you are concerned about foam damage. That is about it. Mount the tailplane on the torque tube to ensure perfect alignment of the two tubes. If the alignment is not perfect, then adjust by applying pressure at the tailplane tip in different directions until the TP4 slides in all the way. Make sure also that it was well greased. After 4-5 hours of curing pull the tailplanes off again, just to make sure that there is no bonding going on in case some more epoxy has seeped out of the gap onto the TP4. Then push it back on and leave overnight. Hope that helps, Karl >From: Bill and Sue >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:55:56 +1300 > > >Yes I would be interested as I have not done mine yet . > >Mono XS >ZK CHV >914 Airmaster > >Rgds > >Sue & Bill > > >Karl Heindl wrote: >> >> >> >>My original plan was to replace both TP5 and TP6 with a single tube. >>After removing the TP5 I realized that there was no point at all in >>removing the TP6. It is only necessary to ensure that it cannot move >>inboard, which would then allow the TP12 to disconnect from the tailplane >>etc. etc. >>I simply replaced the TP5 with a longer alu tube from ACS, part number >>03-37900. This butts right up against the TP6, and there is no way this >>can ever move inboard. The tube is made of 6061 T6 aluminum. >>Advantages: >>A straightforward mod. >>No cutting into the tailplane. >>No misalignment problem with TP5 and TP6. >>A permanent solution. ( assuming that there was a problem in the first >>place.) >>If anyone is interested I can give more details on how I did it. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Karl >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk >> >> >> >> >> >> >>__________ NOD32 2607 (20071022) Information __________ >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_hotmailtextlink2_oct ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:59 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative In re: Teflon (tm) Do an advanced search in Google for all of the word "electroless nickel teflon" and you will get many hits for shops that can deposit electroless nickel with particles of Teflon(tm). This coating will be the most compatible with the nickel plated torque tube and have the best lubricity. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:57 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative Hi Bill and Sue, Some builders pointed out a potential corrosion problem with my choice of aluminum. There are other choices. George Powell obtained a steel tube from a builder in Germany, and whoever supplies the TP5/TP6 to Europa would obviously also be able to supply a longer cut. I like the idea of a Teflon coat on the TP4, but wouldn't have a clue on how to apply it. I am not really concerned about the corrosion issue. The torque tube is prone to corrosion anyway, when moisture is present. I have seen the corrosion on the exterior of other Europas, and if the exterior corrodes then you can be sure that the tube's interior is corroded as well, unless the necessary steps were taken before assembly . I always apply a good coat of lithium grease, and the tailplanes should be pulled off at least twice a year for a n inspection. I never had a problem in that area. Removal of TP5: I tried it the hard way by making a micro oven inside an aluminum tube, using a 20W halogen bulb and an oven thermometer with a remote probe for accurate temperature control. The thermometer had an upper display limit of 200 degrees, and that was not hot enough to soften the redux I had used as an adhesive. I have now seen another oven thermometer with a much higher limit, but I have discarded that technique, unless I wanted to remove the TP6. Using the same tube, and with the inside opening sealed with a heatresistent material (felt chair glides), I applied a good dose of heat with a blowtorch. The tailplane is in an upright position, so that no heat finds its way into the foam area. Using a narrow kitchen knife I probed the adhesive on the outside of the TP5. When the redux had softened enough I removed the heat and cut around the TP5 with the same knife, which had a serrated edge and I was using it like a saw. For the removal of the tube you need a locking pair of longnose pliers. Lock it onto the edge and slowly remove the thing with a turning motion. You may have to cut away a tiny bit of the plywood rib (2 x 5mm) to make room for the pliers. Now having said all that, I suggest you ignore the two techniques above. Next time I would simply use the knife and heat it with a blowtorch before cutting into the adhesive. I didn't do any damage to the foam. Installing the new TP5: You need a small flashlight so you can see exactly what is inside the tailplane. Do a trial fit of the new tube and see if it butts right up against the TP6. If there is any adhesive on the edge of the TP6, then don't disturb it, but grind a piece out of the edge of the long tube. I had to do that on both sides. Once you have a satisfactory fit, mark the tube where it needs to be cut off. I used a hacksaw and belt sander to do the necessary trimming. Now take the tailplane and do a trial dry fit on the aircraft. Remove the new TP5. Use a narrow long spatula to apply floxed epoxy to the foam walls and over the old adhesive. The flox should be fairly wet, and you need only coat the first two thirds of the hole. Put a liberal coat of neat epoxy on the tube exterior and insert it slowly with a turning motion. The tailplane is in the horizontalposition, and at the halfway mark remove the surplus flox which has been pushed ahead of the tube. Remove more flox again when the tube is fully inserted. Now take some time to remove alltrace of adhesive inside the tubes. I used rags dampened with acetone, on a long stick. I believe that vinegar can also be used, if you are concerned about foam damage. That is about it. Mount the tailplane on the torque tube to ensure perfect alignment of the two tubes. If the alignment is not perfect, then adjust by applying pressure at the tailplane tip in different directions until the TP4 slides in all the way. Make sure also that it was well greased. After 4-5 hours of curing pull the tailplanes off again, just to make sure that there is no bonding going on in case some more epoxy has seeped out of the gap onto the TP4. Then push it back on and leave overnight. Hope that helps, Karl >From: Bill and Sue >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:55:56 +1300 > > >Yes I would be interested as I have not done mine yet . > >Mono XS >ZK CHV >914 Airmaster > >Rgds > >Sue & Bill > > >Karl Heindl wrote: >> >> >> >>My original plan was to replace both TP5 and TP6 with a single tube. >>After removing the TP5 I realized that there was no point at all in >>removing the TP6. It is only necessary to ensure that it cannot move >>inboard, which would then allow the TP12 to disconnect from the tailplane >>etc. etc. >>I simply replaced the TP5 with a longer alu tube from ACS, part number >>03-37900. This butts right up against the TP6, and there is no way this >>can ever move inboard. The tube is made of 6061 T6 aluminum. >>Advantages: >>A straightforward mod. >>No cutting into the tailplane. >>No misalignment problem with TP5 and TP6. >>A permanent solution. ( assuming that there was a problem in the first >>place.) >>If anyone is interested I can give more details on how I did it. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Karl >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk >> >> >> >> >> >> >>__________ NOD32 2607 (20071022) Information __________ >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_hotmailtextlink2_oct ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:34 PM PST US From: Paul Stewart Subject: Europa-List: firewall fitings Anyone in the UK know where to get the bulkhead fitting supplied by the factory as part of the MAP plumbing kit? I only want the fitting Regards Paul G-GIDY ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:03 PM PST US From: "Karl Heindl" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative Rob, You seem to know a lot about this. But would it be possible to apply to an installed torque tube, i.e. would the platers be able to work with my fuselage on a trailer ? Regards, Karl >From: "Rob Housman" >To: >Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:48:46 -0700 > > >In re: Teflon (tm) > >Do an advanced search in Google for all of the word "electroless nickel >teflon" and you will get many hits for shops that can deposit electroless >nickel with particles of Teflon(tm). This coating will be the most >compatible with the nickel plated torque tube and have the best lubricity. > >Best regards, > >Rob Housman >Irvine, California >Europa XS Tri-Gear >S/N A070 >Airframe complete > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl >Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:57 AM >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative > > > >Hi Bill and Sue, > >Some builders pointed out a potential corrosion problem with my choice of >aluminum. There are other choices. George Powell obtained a steel tube from >a builder in Germany, and whoever supplies the TP5/TP6 to Europa would >obviously also be able to supply a longer cut. >I like the idea of a Teflon coat on the TP4, but wouldn't have a clue on >how > >to apply it. >I am not really concerned about the corrosion issue. The torque tube is >prone to corrosion anyway, when moisture is present. I have seen the >corrosion on the exterior of other Europas, and if the exterior corrodes >then you can be sure that the tube's interior is corroded as well, unless >the necessary steps were taken before assembly . >I always apply a good coat of lithium grease, and the tailplanes should be >pulled off at least twice a year for a n inspection. I never had a problem >in that area. > >Removal of TP5: > >I tried it the hard way by making a micro oven inside an aluminum tube, >using a 20W halogen bulb and an oven thermometer with a remote probe for >accurate temperature control. The thermometer had an upper display limit of >200 degrees, and that was not hot enough to soften the redux I had used as >an adhesive. I have now seen another oven thermometer with a much higher >limit, but I have discarded that technique, unless I wanted to remove the >TP6. > >Using the same tube, and with the inside opening sealed with a >heatresistent > >material (felt chair glides), I applied a good dose of heat with a >blowtorch. The tailplane is in an upright position, so that no heat finds >its way into the foam area. Using a narrow kitchen knife I probed the >adhesive on the outside of the TP5. When the redux had softened enough I >removed the heat and cut around the TP5 with the same knife, which had a >serrated edge and I was using it like a saw. >For the removal of the tube you need a locking pair of longnose pliers. >Lock > >it onto the edge and slowly remove the thing with a turning motion. You may >have to cut away a tiny bit of the plywood rib (2 x 5mm) to make room for >the pliers. > >Now having said all that, I suggest you ignore the two techniques above. >Next time I would simply use the knife and heat it with a blowtorch before >cutting into the adhesive. >I didn't do any damage to the foam. > >Installing the new TP5: > >You need a small flashlight so you can see exactly what is inside the >tailplane. >Do a trial fit of the new tube and see if it butts right up against the >TP6. > >If there is any adhesive on the edge of the TP6, then don't disturb it, but >grind a piece out of the edge of the long tube. >I had to do that on both sides. >Once you have a satisfactory fit, mark the tube where it needs to be cut >off. I used a hacksaw and belt sander to do the necessary trimming. >Now take the tailplane and do a trial dry fit on the aircraft. >Remove the new TP5. >Use a narrow long spatula to apply floxed epoxy to the foam walls and over >the old adhesive. The flox should be fairly wet, and you need only coat the >first two thirds of the hole. >Put a liberal coat of neat epoxy on the tube exterior and insert it slowly >with a turning motion. >The tailplane is in the horizontalposition, and at the halfway mark remove >the surplus flox which has been pushed ahead of the tube. Remove more flox >again when the tube is fully inserted. >Now take some time to remove alltrace of adhesive inside the tubes. I used >rags dampened with acetone, on a long stick. I believe that vinegar can >also > >be used, if you are concerned about foam damage. >That is about it. Mount the tailplane on the torque tube to ensure perfect >alignment of the two tubes. If the alignment is not perfect, then adjust by >applying pressure at the tailplane tip in different directions until the >TP4 > >slides in all the way. Make sure also that it was well greased. >After 4-5 hours of curing pull the tailplanes off again, just to make sure >that there is no bonding going on in case some more epoxy has seeped out of >the gap onto the TP4. >Then push it back on and leave overnight. > >Hope that helps, > >Karl > > > >From: Bill and Sue > >To: europa-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative > >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:55:56 +1300 > > > > > >Yes I would be interested as I have not done mine yet . > > > >Mono XS > >ZK CHV > >914 Airmaster > > > >Rgds > > > >Sue & Bill > > > > > > > >Karl Heindl wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>My original plan was to replace both TP5 and TP6 with a single tube. > >>After removing the TP5 I realized that there was no point at all in > >>removing the TP6. It is only necessary to ensure that it cannot move > >>inboard, which would then allow the TP12 to disconnect from the >tailplane > >>etc. etc. > >>I simply replaced the TP5 with a longer alu tube from ACS, part number > >>03-37900. This butts right up against the TP6, and there is no way this > >>can ever move inboard. The tube is made of 6061 T6 aluminum. > >>Advantages: > >>A straightforward mod. > >>No cutting into the tailplane. > >>No misalignment problem with TP5 and TP6. > >>A permanent solution. ( assuming that there was a problem in the first > >>place.) > >>If anyone is interested I can give more details on how I did it. > >> > >>Cheers, > >> > >>Karl > >> > >>_________________________________________________________________ > >>The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>__________ NOD32 2607 (20071022) Information __________ > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star >power. >http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_hotmailtextlink2_oct > > _________________________________________________________________ Bored? Loads of prizes on offer with our free games! http://www.searchgamesbox.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:49 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative Colin Smallwood has an easier way. He made an oval washer, long axis just more than OD of TP5, on a length of screwed rod, which would pass down the inside of the TP5 tilted then lock onto the inner end when straightened. A piece of tube just larger than TP5 rests on the root rib with a washer and nut on the outer end. Tighten the nut and the TP5 is pulled out. No heat required. Graham Karl Heindl wrote: > > Using the same tube, and with the inside opening sealed with a > heatresistent material (felt chair glides), I applied a good dose of > heat with a blowtorch. The tailplane is in an upright position, so that > no heat finds its way into the foam area. Using a narrow kitchen knife I > probed the adhesive on the outside of the TP5. When the redux had > softened enough I removed the heat and cut around the TP5 with the same > knife, which had a serrated edge and I was using it like a saw. > For the removal of the tube you need a locking pair of longnose pliers. > Lock it onto the edge and slowly remove the thing with a turning motion. > You may have to cut away a tiny bit of the plywood rib (2 x 5mm) to make > room for the pliers. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:27 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane slots in fuselage From: Fred Klein Hi All, Step 7 on build manual pg. 19-7 describes the required travel (4 degrees up, 12 degrees down) of the trailing edge of the tailplane from a neutral position. My fuselage had a faint but discernible ridge line which I interpreted to be a cut-out line for the slots for the tab link-rod TS05 which I previously followed when cutting out the slots. As I now have the tailplanes mounted and am measuring to ensure they can achieve the required travel, I'm finding that my slots are grossly oversized, and most probably will be quite inviting for small birds and varmints. Have any of you faced the same situation? Now that I have marked the location of the tab link-rod in the extreme up and down positions, and after taking into account the fore and aft movement of the tab link-rod and adding 1/8" clearances, my intention is to do some bid patching so that the slot is no larger than required. I'm unclear as to the meaning of the last sentence on pg. 19-7 where it states, "...as the trailing edge of the tailplane is raised the trailing edge of the tab raises even further, the ratio being approximately 1.3 to 1. Therefore, when you have raised the trailing edge of the tailplane by 12 degrees, the tab should have raised 15.6 degrees relative to the tailplane or 27.6 degrees from the zero start position. A maximum total movement of 18 degrees and a minimum of 14.4 degrees relative to the tailplane is acceptable." Does the last sentence intend: A maximum total movement of the trim tab of 18 degrees and a minimum of 14.4 degrees relative to the tailplane is acceptable." Or am I really missing the point? Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:35 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative Karl, sorry about not being sufficiently specific in my suggestion. I was suggesting that the add on aluminum tube could be electroless nickel plated in order to have the new tube and the original TP4 (which is already nickel plated, but not with Teflon(tm)added) have similar material on the mating surfaces. Unlike electrodeposited nickel which would be tricky to plate inside a tube, the electroless stuff can be applied to the ID of a tube. To more directly answer your question about in situ plating....no, it would not be easy to deposit electroless nickel (with or without the slippery stuff) to the torque tube already installed, primarily because the process requires the temperature to be close to the boiling point of the solution in order to work. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:49 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative Rob, You seem to know a lot about this. But would it be possible to apply to an installed torque tube, i.e. would the platers be able to work with my fuselage on a trailer ? Regards, Karl >From: "Rob Housman" >To: >Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:48:46 -0700 > > >In re: Teflon (tm) > >Do an advanced search in Google for all of the word "electroless nickel >teflon" and you will get many hits for shops that can deposit electroless >nickel with particles of Teflon(tm). This coating will be the most >compatible with the nickel plated torque tube and have the best lubricity. > >Best regards, > >Rob Housman >Irvine, California >Europa XS Tri-Gear >S/N A070 >Airframe complete > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl >Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:57 AM >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative > > > >Hi Bill and Sue, > >Some builders pointed out a potential corrosion problem with my choice of >aluminum. There are other choices. George Powell obtained a steel tube from >a builder in Germany, and whoever supplies the TP5/TP6 to Europa would >obviously also be able to supply a longer cut. >I like the idea of a Teflon coat on the TP4, but wouldn't have a clue on >how > >to apply it. >I am not really concerned about the corrosion issue. The torque tube is >prone to corrosion anyway, when moisture is present. I have seen the >corrosion on the exterior of other Europas, and if the exterior corrodes >then you can be sure that the tube's interior is corroded as well, unless >the necessary steps were taken before assembly . >I always apply a good coat of lithium grease, and the tailplanes should be >pulled off at least twice a year for a n inspection. I never had a problem >in that area. > >Removal of TP5: > >I tried it the hard way by making a micro oven inside an aluminum tube, >using a 20W halogen bulb and an oven thermometer with a remote probe for >accurate temperature control. The thermometer had an upper display limit of >200 degrees, and that was not hot enough to soften the redux I had used as >an adhesive. I have now seen another oven thermometer with a much higher >limit, but I have discarded that technique, unless I wanted to remove the >TP6. > >Using the same tube, and with the inside opening sealed with a >heatresistent > >material (felt chair glides), I applied a good dose of heat with a >blowtorch. The tailplane is in an upright position, so that no heat finds >its way into the foam area. Using a narrow kitchen knife I probed the >adhesive on the outside of the TP5. When the redux had softened enough I >removed the heat and cut around the TP5 with the same knife, which had a >serrated edge and I was using it like a saw. >For the removal of the tube you need a locking pair of longnose pliers. >Lock > >it onto the edge and slowly remove the thing with a turning motion. You may >have to cut away a tiny bit of the plywood rib (2 x 5mm) to make room for >the pliers. > >Now having said all that, I suggest you ignore the two techniques above. >Next time I would simply use the knife and heat it with a blowtorch before >cutting into the adhesive. >I didn't do any damage to the foam. > >Installing the new TP5: > >You need a small flashlight so you can see exactly what is inside the >tailplane. >Do a trial fit of the new tube and see if it butts right up against the >TP6. > >If there is any adhesive on the edge of the TP6, then don't disturb it, but >grind a piece out of the edge of the long tube. >I had to do that on both sides. >Once you have a satisfactory fit, mark the tube where it needs to be cut >off. I used a hacksaw and belt sander to do the necessary trimming. >Now take the tailplane and do a trial dry fit on the aircraft. >Remove the new TP5. >Use a narrow long spatula to apply floxed epoxy to the foam walls and over >the old adhesive. The flox should be fairly wet, and you need only coat the >first two thirds of the hole. >Put a liberal coat of neat epoxy on the tube exterior and insert it slowly >with a turning motion. >The tailplane is in the horizontalposition, and at the halfway mark remove >the surplus flox which has been pushed ahead of the tube. Remove more flox >again when the tube is fully inserted. >Now take some time to remove alltrace of adhesive inside the tubes. I used >rags dampened with acetone, on a long stick. I believe that vinegar can >also > >be used, if you are concerned about foam damage. >That is about it. Mount the tailplane on the torque tube to ensure perfect >alignment of the two tubes. If the alignment is not perfect, then adjust by >applying pressure at the tailplane tip in different directions until the >TP4 > >slides in all the way. Make sure also that it was well greased. >After 4-5 hours of curing pull the tailplanes off again, just to make sure >that there is no bonding going on in case some more epoxy has seeped out of >the gap onto the TP4. >Then push it back on and leave overnight. > >Hope that helps, > >Karl > > > >From: Bill and Sue > >To: europa-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 73 alternative > >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:55:56 +1300 > > > > > >Yes I would be interested as I have not done mine yet . > > > >Mono XS > >ZK CHV > >914 Airmaster > > > >Rgds > > > >Sue & Bill > > > > > > > >Karl Heindl wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>My original plan was to replace both TP5 and TP6 with a single tube. > >>After removing the TP5 I realized that there was no point at all in > >>removing the TP6. It is only necessary to ensure that it cannot move > >>inboard, which would then allow the TP12 to disconnect from the >tailplane > >>etc. etc. > >>I simply replaced the TP5 with a longer alu tube from ACS, part number > >>03-37900. This butts right up against the TP6, and there is no way this > >>can ever move inboard. The tube is made of 6061 T6 aluminum. > >>Advantages: > >>A straightforward mod. > >>No cutting into the tailplane. > >>No misalignment problem with TP5 and TP6. > >>A permanent solution. ( assuming that there was a problem in the first > >>place.) > >>If anyone is interested I can give more details on how I did it. > >> > >>Cheers, > >> > >>Karl > >> > >>_________________________________________________________________ > >>The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>__________ NOD32 2607 (20071022) Information __________ > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star >power. >http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_hotmailtextlink2_oc t > > _________________________________________________________________ Bored? Loads of prizes on offer with our free games! http://www.searchgamesbox.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:20 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane slots in fuselage In re: cutting the slots The scribe lines on my fuselage were likewise "slightly" off from the actual location (and size) so I had to practice my fiberglass repair technique in order to reduce the ridiculously large gap. In re: trim tab movement Read on a bit further and the intent is made clear. The next paragraph in the manual concludes with this sentence: "A maximum total movement of 6 degrees and a minimum of 4.8 degrees OF TAB MOVEMENT (emphasis added) relative to the tailplane is acceptable Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Tri-Gear S/N A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:22 PM Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane slots in fuselage Hi All, Step 7 on build manual pg. 19-7 describes the required travel (4 degrees up, 12 degrees down) of the trailing edge of the tailplane from a neutral position. My fuselage had a faint but discernible ridge line which I interpreted to be a cut-out line for the slots for the tab link-rod TS05 which I previously followed when cutting out the slots. As I now have the tailplanes mounted and am measuring to ensure they can achieve the required travel, I'm finding that my slots are grossly oversized, and most probably will be quite inviting for small birds and varmints. Have any of you faced the same situation? Now that I have marked the location of the tab link-rod in the extreme up and down positions, and after taking into account the fore and aft movement of the tab link-rod and adding 1/8" clearances, my intention is to do some bid patching so that the slot is no larger than required. I'm unclear as to the meaning of the last sentence on pg. 19-7 where it states, "...as the trailing edge of the tailplane is raised the trailing edge of the tab raises even further, the ratio being approximately 1.3 to 1. Therefore, when you have raised the trailing edge of the tailplane by 12 degrees, the tab should have raised 15.6 degrees relative to the tailplane or 27.6 degrees from the zero start position. A maximum total movement of 18 degrees and a minimum of 14.4 degrees relative to the tailplane is acceptable." Does the last sentence intend: A maximum total movement of the trim tab of 18 degrees and a minimum of 14.4 degrees relative to the tailplane is acceptable." Or am I really missing the point? Fred ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:42 PM PST US From: Rman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane slots in fuselage Fred, Realizing that the lines were only an approximation, I took care to start very small with the cuts to the fuse. When checking for clearance, one should check full deflection in both full up trim and full down trim positions. There is a noticeable difference in the clearance at each extreme. I allowed approximately 1/8" all around the range... Keep pluggin' away, brother. You'll be flying soon enough... ;) Jeff - Baby Blue 336 hours Fred Klein wrote: > Hi All, > > Step 7 on build manual pg. 19-7 describes the required travel (4 > degrees up, 12 degrees down) of the trailing edge of the tailplane > from a neutral position. My fuselage had a faint but discernible ridge > line which I interpreted to be a cut-out line for the slots for the > tab link-rod TS05 which I previously followed when cutting out the > slots. As I now have the tailplanes mounted and am measuring to ensure > they can achieve the required travel, I'm finding that my slots are > grossly oversized, and most probably will be quite inviting for small > birds and varmints. Have any of you faced the same situation? > > Now that I have marked the location of the tab link-rod in the extreme > up and down positions, and after taking into account the fore and aft > movement of the tab link-rod and adding 1/8" clearances, my intention > is to do some bid patching so that the slot is no larger than required. > > I'm unclear as to the meaning of the last sentence on pg. 19-7 where > it states, > > "...as the trailing edge of the tailplane is raised the trailing edge > of the tab raises even further, the ratio being approximately 1.3 to > 1. Therefore, when you have raised the trailing edge of the tailplane > by 12 degrees, the tab should have raised 15.6 degrees relative to the > tailplane or 27.6 degrees from the zero start position. > /A maximum total movement of 18 degrees and a minimum of 14.4 degrees > relative to the tailplane is acceptable." > > /Does the last sentence intend: /A maximum total movement *of the trim > tab* of 18 degrees and a minimum of 14.4 degrees relative to the > tailplane is acceptable." > > /Or am I really missing the point? > > Fred > size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier"> > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:02 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane slots in fuselage From: Fred Klein On Tuesday, October 23, 2007, at 07:42 PM, Rman wrote: > Realizing that the lines were only an approximation, I took care to > start very small with the cuts to the fuse.- Jeff...thanks bro'...and thank you too Rob, Old Pennsylvania Dutch Saying: "Why Oh Why do I get so late smarter?" Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.