---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/10/07: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:58 AM - Re: Secondary Fuel Pump, correct or not (josok) 2. 07:14 AM - Re: Prop Tach Sender (ALAN YERLY) 3. 07:19 AM - Re: Secondary Fuel Pump, correct or not () 4. 10:07 AM - Secondary Fuel Pump, correct or not (Remi Guerner) 5. 10:19 AM - DOTH Halfpenny Green ( Wolverhampton ) Tue 11th (Paddy Clarke) 6. 11:25 AM - Re: Secondary Fuel Pump, correct or not () 7. 12:33 PM - Re: redux / araldite 420 for sale in OZ (Laptop JR) 8. 12:48 PM - Re: DOTH Halfpenny Green ( Wolverhampton ) Tue 11th (Robert C Harrison) 9. 02:26 PM - secondary fuel pump (Fergus Kyle) 10. 02:56 PM - Re: DOTH Halfpenny Green ( Wolverhampton ) Tue 11th (bryan allsop) 11. 03:41 PM - Re: secondary fuel pump () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Secondary Fuel Pump, correct or not From: "josok" Hi Ron, Thanks for the amount of explanation, you are correct: If And If brings you down. No fuel left also. However, i specifically mentioned "any single component failure" because there always seem to be people who manage to improve the scenario. Did you forget to read that? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:59 AM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Prop Tach Sender Ira, Great investigative work as usual... It must be the coriolis effect. Westach has always been great about for their flexibility. A real credit goes to them also. I would have had them change the part number to 720-12IRA Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: rampil To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: Europa-List: Prop Tach Sender > Greetings All, A tech tidbit for the group. I have been investigating why my prop tach sensor doesn't work and finally discovered the solution, which I put forth for other who may wind up in this boat. I have an AirMaster prop and a Blue Mountain EFIS. So far there is no way for the BMA to read the engine RPM signal (although that may change soon). The AirMaster hub has a magnet embedded in it's contact plate for its own internal RPM sensing. Since I could not expose the electric RPM signal, I put my own Hall effect sensor on a bracket mounted to the Rotax gear box of my 912uls. The sensor I used is a Westach 720-12R. This sensor never produced a pulse train signal for the Blue Mountain to analyze. I finally put a scope on the probe and discovered that indeed not pulses were generated by a spinning prop. (I really did not want my scope that close to the spinning prop ;-) ) It turns out that the Hall Effect sensor uses a neat integrated sensor chip which it turns out is sensitive only to a SINGLE magnetic polarity. By random chance, AirMaster uses the wrong one. (North vs South, etc). The Westach pulses just fine when I swish a different magnet past it. It turns out that Westach can build the probe with sensitivity to the opposite magnet face. The part number is you need this new probe is 720-12RAM. Same price as the original 720-12R probe. Hope this solves someone else's mystery too! Ira N224XS -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150815#150815 http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Secondary Fuel Pump, correct or not From: Hi Jos "any single component failure" **Air leaking at valve #1 could be same as air into a Gasculator or filter and shut you down **Having Series with bypass, a single air leak at either of the Gasculators or filter will shut you down, if you had parallel pumps with a gasculator or filter on intake this is not the case I like Series with bypass better than parallel pumps, the Europa series with bypass like better than Rotax series with bypass because it uses a second filter or in my case gasculator. True if you wanted to go crazy you could add another 1 way between filters or gasculators and negate an air leak at #2 Gasculator from interfering with #1 Gasculator, but not worth the extra parts count. I did read "any single component failure" and figured this is not an FAA test where you must choose a letter for an absolute answer, but wanted to make sure anyone using or considering series with bypass understands its operation, not just "B" is the correct answer to question #2. Sincerely Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:56 AM PST US From: "Remi Guerner" Subject: Europa-List: Secondary Fuel Pump, correct or not "On my system if I pushed up on one of the beautiful Stainless Steel Andair bowl drains, just the tiniest bit, either pump #1, or #2 or both #1+#2 would far rather suck air than fuel" Ron, I have to disagree with that. If your fuel pumps are installed below the bagage bay as instructed by Europa, they will always be below the fuel level, unless your tank is almost empty. Therefore, unless there is an obstruction at the tank output coarse filter, the pressure inside the gascolator, upstream of the filter, will always be higher than the ambiant pressure. So if your fuel drain leaks, it will not suck air but will leak fuel to the outside. Regards Remi ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:19:15 AM PST US From: Paddy Clarke Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Halfpenny Green ( Wolverhampton ) Tue 11th Hi Folks, It looks as though the weather is finally going to give us a break tomorrow, so how about a DOTH?. I can't find anywhere pretty central (short days) with a good cafe and hard R/W (grass might be a bit wet) offering free landings, so I've settled on Halfpenny Green, where landings cost =A310. Time 1200ish as usual, Cheers, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Secondary Fuel Pump, correct or not From: Hi Remi "If your fuel pumps are installed below the baggage bay as instructed by Europa, they will always be below the fuel level, unless your tank is almost empty." My Fuel 914 pumps are mounted below baggage bay area. Lets raise the Gasculators to the top of the cockpit for 1 minute. As long as no air is in line and there are no air leaks, it is true if the fuel level is above the inlet of the fuel pump it will be OK, but if you open the drain, air will be pulled in and air not fuel will be sucked in easier than fuel. Now lets move the Gasculator to where I have it, right on the floor of fuse aft of the baggage bay ribs, you need fuel level above the outlet of the Gasculators to not let a leak in the drain cause grief. Granted for most part it will not be a problem, but you can pretty easily get level I feel can be critical if you get an air leak, nose low during landing with low fuel, running on main of tank and right hand pattern would put outlet of Gasculator above fuel level. I am not trying to scare anyone, just keep in mind that a leak in fuel filter or Gasculator drain besides being a bad thing to leak fuel, could cause problems with fuel delivery. I want to make light that the Gasculator drain has more of a chance of leaking than a filter and that although chances of actually having your engine play Silent Night because of a air leak is low, none the less at least be aware that drain or drains can introduce air, so if you see a leak at all, fix it. The little Pierburg fuel pumps create quite a squirt. There is no question that even if you had fuel level slightly above gasculator outlet (which is at the same height as inlet) you will be putting entire feed upstream of the inlet of the fuel pump at a slight negative pressure. I fooled with placing pick up of fuel close to surface of fuel, and it creates a whirlwind and sucks in air. I tried it with level a little above Gasculators and below. Try drinking through a straw that has a mini hole in it your favorite beverage very fast with level of liquid slightly higher than your mouth. Especially at full power, the Pierburg/s can just about provide the pressure needed to crack Fuel Pressure regulator and just a little reserve. If Wastegate gets stuck and you go over max boost, crack pressure will not be reached and motor will quit, then less boost, fill carbs and get power back until it quits again. Introduce not much air at full throttle and I suspect crack pressure will not be met with a proper functioning wastegate. Just this little tiny bit of air plays hell with pumps ability, it cavitates and pressure goes way down. Go ahead, lift up tail of your plane next time you need fuel and turn on pump and open drain a little, then holding drain same amount opened have someone turn off pump. Please report your findings. Ron P. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:29 PM PST US From: "Laptop JR" Subject: Re: Europa-List: redux / araldite 420 for sale in OZ K Yes, I had not looked. It seems a pity that we don't have an Aussie co-ordinator to collect the list etc - But I am not volunteering! Just unloading the Chapter 23 Secretary's job to Bob Phillips ex Wedderburn NSW group. JR ----- Original Message ----- From: "craig bastin" Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:40 AM Subject: Europa-List: redux / araldite 420 for sale in OZ > > I have decided to bite the bullet and buy a case (6 kits) of 420 so > if anyone in OZ wants some let me know, price will be $265 a kit, its 1500 > for the case > which is all anyone will sell me. > > regards > > craig > 0411764396 > > > -- > 5/12/2007 8:41 AM > -- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:51 PM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: DOTH Halfpenny Green ( Wolverhampton ) Tue 11th Sorry But Tuesdays are our =93L=94 days (Lovelia and Lexander we have a baby sit commitment and some days it has an =93H=94 in front !) Regards Bob Harrison. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paddy Clarke Sent: 10 December 2007 17:51 Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Halfpenny Green ( Wolverhampton ) Tue 11th Hi Folks, It looks as though the weather is finally going to give us a break tomorrow, so how about a DOTH?. I can't find anywhere pretty central (short days) with a good cafe and hard R/W (grass might be a bit wet) offering free landings, so I've settled on Halfpenny Green, where landings cost =A310. Time 1200ish as usual, Cheers, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:26:29 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: secondary fuel pump Ron, I agree with you that if a pump fails, and its attendant bypass valve sticks shut, then no fuel will emerge. Or if both pumps fail, no fuel will emerge. Other than that perhaps my comprehension is low, but it seems to me that a double failure has occurred - and the odds exceed those of cardiac arrest. Can we not start on one pump, and taxi on the other, to prove a safe system to begin with? That would reduce the odds of a double failure if we don't start out with one to begin with........ Where have I gone wrong? Cheers,ferg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:25 PM PST US From: bryan allsop Subject: RE: Europa-List: DOTH Halfpenny Green ( Wolverhampton ) Tue 11th Think I'll have a pop for that. Bryan ist: DOTH Halfpenny Green ( Wolverhampton ) Tue 11thDate: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:50:59 +0000Hi Folks, It looks as though the weather is finally going to give us a break tomorrow , so how about a DOTH?. I can't find anywhere pretty central (short days) w ith a good cafe and hard R/W (grass might be a bit wet) offering free landi ngs, so I've settled on Halfpenny Green, where landings cost =A310. Time 12 00ish as usual, Cheers, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_1120 07 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: secondary fuel pump From: Hi Ferg "Where have I gone wrong?" Perhaps I should let someone else answer that ;-) I agree that both pumps one at a time should be checked to verify that system is working. If wired as per Europa Schematic, can't turn off pump #1 (or last time I checked anyway). Best test with some pressure in manifold to ensure that each pump can meet crack pressure of fuel pressure regulator when engine is making some BTUs. Test of pumps at low power setting does not prove much. Ron P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.