Europa-List Digest Archive

Mon 12/31/07


Total Messages Posted: 22



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:04 AM - Re: Europaprecision? (craig bastin)
     2. 12:33 AM - Re: Europaprecision? (Richard Scanlan)
     3. 02:34 AM - Re: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into (Robert C Harrison)
     4. 02:51 AM - Re: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into (Greg Fuchs (FB))
     5. 03:35 AM - Re: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into (Greg Fuchs (FB))
     6. 03:51 AM - Re: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into cockpit module and Europaprecision (Richard Collings)
     7. 05:08 AM - Re: Europaprecision? (Graham Singleton)
     8. 05:34 AM - Re: Europaprecision? (craig bastin)
     9. 05:55 AM - Re: Europaprecision? (Steve Hagar)
    10. 06:14 AM - Re: Europaprecision? (pat)
    11. 08:13 AM - Re: Europaprecision? (Graham Singleton)
    12. 09:17 AM - Roll trim system (Remi Guerner)
    13. 09:44 AM - Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH (David.Corbett)
    14. 10:37 AM - Re: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH (David Joyce)
    15. 12:21 PM - Re: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH (josok)
    16. 12:35 PM - Re: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
    17. 01:47 PM - Re: Europaprecision? (ALAN YERLY)
    18. 02:02 PM - Ethanol coatings for fiberglass tanks (ALAN YERLY)
    19. 02:21 PM - Re: Europaprecision? (craig bastin)
    20. 03:30 PM - Re: G-CHOX (Rman)
    21. 05:15 PM - Re: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH (Robert C Harrison)
    22. 09:51 PM - Europa Mandatory Mod 73 - re -use of original Pip-Pins through the TP4 and TP6's (Laptop JR)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:04:29 AM PST US
    From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Europaprecision?
    Steve just on the subject of tanks and making new ones, Have you considered making a tank out of carbon fiber and vinyl-ester resin One of the fibreglass sellers i know tells me it is virtually totally chemically resistant and if you add wax in styrene to the resin it's even better again. I intend to try it and find out for myself with a test tank, I told him if was for an aircraft and he wasnt concerned at all, which given everybodys desire to cover their asses or not even deal with aircraft because of the liability issues speaks volumes. The resultant tank would be very light and very strong and rigid, Could be a better way to go. only issue i can see, is you cant use vinylester and epoxy together as it wont bond properly, I was told, so you would have to make mounts and bolt it in, which may not be such a bad idea craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs (FB) Sent: Monday, 31 December 2007 11:24 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europaprecision? <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net> Steve, Keep us informed, if you come up with a solution. It would be intriguing to try something else. I saw a picture somewhere of one other member that built an aluminum tank. Thanks for the informative pics. Regards, Greg. -----snip----- In any case I don't believe I am going to put my replacement polyethelyne tank back in the aircraft. I am going to pursue making an aluminum (aluminium for you other guys) tank up with AN fittings. Check some photos of the tank and the crack attached. Steve Hagar A 143 Mesa AZ Do not archive 11:27 AM 11:27 AM


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:33:28 AM PST US
    From: "Richard Scanlan" <avgashead@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Europaprecision?
    Does anybody know who made and supplied the few fibreglass tanks that were available to builders in the UK? I bought my kit with the tank already fitted into the cockpit module, and from distant memory,(it was two and a half years ago that I bonded the module in) the tank is mounted in the same way as the polyethelyne one. A weight penalty is inevitable but I'm trusting that the glass tank will give me better service and not be so prone to distortion as the factory issue. Richard Scanlan #103, wiring and upholstery to go. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin Sent: 31 December 2007 08:08 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europaprecision? <craigb@onthenet.com.au> Steve just on the subject of tanks and making new ones, Have you considered making a tank out of carbon fiber and vinyl-ester resin One of the fibreglass sellers i know tells me it is virtually totally chemically resistant and if you add wax in styrene to the resin it's even better again. I intend to try it and find out for myself with a test tank, I told him if was for an aircraft and he wasnt concerned at all, which given everybodys desire to cover their asses or not even deal with aircraft because of the liability issues speaks volumes. The resultant tank would be very light and very strong and rigid, Could be a better way to go. only issue i can see, is you cant use vinylester and epoxy together as it wont bond properly, I was told, so you would have to make mounts and bolt it in, which may not be such a bad idea craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs (FB) Sent: Monday, 31 December 2007 11:24 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europaprecision? <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net> Steve, Keep us informed, if you come up with a solution. It would be intriguing to try something else. I saw a picture somewhere of one other member that built an aluminum tank. Thanks for the informative pics. Regards, Greg. -----snip----- In any case I don't believe I am going to put my replacement polyethelyne tank back in the aircraft. I am going to pursue making an aluminum (aluminium for you other guys) tank up with AN fittings. Check some photos of the tank and the crack attached. Steve Hagar A 143 Mesa AZ Do not archive 11:27 AM 11:27 AM


    Message 3


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    Time: 02:34:34 AM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into
    Hi! Greg Sorry if I confused the issue ....something told me you were talking quick connects being the Pitot/Static pipes. Regards Bob H Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs (FB) Sent: 31 December 2007 01:24 Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net> Thanks Bob, but I am just a tiny bit confused. Were you talking about the pitot tube connectors? I am talking about the bellcrank support brackets being possibly slightly outboard of the airfram. But I will be sure to work on your experience and take that advice when I get there, and alternate the pitot connectors. I definately don't want to lose my ASI, either. If you meant something else, please set me straight. Thanks again, and Best Regards, Greg -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert C Harrison Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:25 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Greg I'm very late entering this one but be sure to alternate male/female ...female/male to make the reconnect fool proof. I remember assisting connecting William Mills once for him only to hear he flew home without an ASI because they were crossed. Regards Bob H G-PTAG -- 29/12/2007 13:27


    Message 4


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    Time: 02:51:31 AM PST US
    From: "Greg Fuchs (FB)" <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
    Subject: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into
    Thanks Jos, I will measure the squareness of the brackets, and will report my findings. I tried to get them vertical with respect to the ground, but they may be out by a small amount, or I might have to actually taper the top of the brackets in towards each other slightly. More later... I am sure that this has affected more than a few builders, the dimensions are a bit tight near the sidewall. It is only the very upper outboard back part (the back part with the bellcrank mounted to it) of the bracket that wants to lean outward of the fuselage by up to 1 quarter inch, and only the corner, so it would be very easy to miss. However, I will check for my own assumed inaccuracies first... Greg Fuchs (A050) -----[/quote:6192b041ef] Yes, the bell cranks move outside, that's normal. From your reply i now understand that the brackets are rotated - top out bottom in - Yes, you should correct it. The inside of the brackets, after glassing in, should be about 90 degrees to the sides. The manual also calls for the brackets to be squared up, also that is quite important to make fitting the wings easier. Thinking back, i see now what my problem was here. Later, when fitting the wings, the manual calls for a check of the line up of the bell crank. One of them was not in line anymore, while i am quite sure it was ok in the stage you are in now. The brackets, until glassed in, are flexible enough to be pushed around, out of square. That must have happened, not much, but just the 5 millimeters that were missing. Please check the squareness again before glassing :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen


    Message 5


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    Time: 03:35:06 AM PST US
    From: "Greg Fuchs (FB)" <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net>
    Subject: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into
    No prob. Still a good hint. :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert C Harrison Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 2:28 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Greg Sorry if I confused the issue ....something told me you were talking quick connects being the Pitot/Static pipes. Regards Bob H Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs (FB) Sent: 31 December 2007 01:24 Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into <gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net> Thanks Bob, but I am just a tiny bit confused. Were you talking about the pitot tube connectors? I am talking about the bellcrank support brackets being possibly slightly outboard of the airfram. But I will be sure to work on your experience and take that advice when I get there, and alternate the pitot connectors. I definately don't want to lose my ASI, either. If you meant something else, please set me straight. Thanks again, and Best Regards, Greg -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert C Harrison Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:25 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Greg I'm very late entering this one but be sure to alternate male/female ...female/male to make the reconnect fool proof. I remember assisting connecting William Mills once for him only to hear he flew home without an ASI because they were crossed. Regards Bob H G-PTAG -- 29/12/2007 13:27


    Message 6


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    Time: 03:51:37 AM PST US
    From: "Richard Collings" <r.collings@onetel.net>
    Subject: Re: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into cockpit
    module and Europaprecision To my mind the most important thing about positioning the aileron brackets in the module is to insure they line up correctly with the mating bellcranks on each wing. Before doing anything else mount both wings onto the module as per the manual and check positions of the bellcranks. Remember the pivot centres of the mating bellcranks [wing to module] must be the same otherwise the mating faces will rub during operation. You can adjust the position of the brackets on the module, you can't alter them on the wing . Good luck Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: gregoryf.flyboy@comcast.net To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 9:25 PM Subject: Europa-List: mounting quick-connect bellcrank brackets into cockpit module and Europaprecision Since this is a hot topic right now, here is my input for the Europaprecision thread (my view only): Although there are areas for improvement, I will never expect everything in a kit as complex as this, to line up perfectly. Without getting into company names, I have heard builders from other well known composite aircraft manufacturers cuss profusely about the way some of their kit components lined up. Even some items (like doors), that were supposedly pre-molded to fit (and finished, direct from the factory), had to be completely overhauled over many time-consuming hours before they did. I think that just goes with the territory for our (stronger than aluminum) 'plastic' airplanes. Again, just my 2 cents. That being said, here is my current problem : I may have a clearance issue, with the top of the bellcrank bracket encroaching up to a quarter-inch into the sidewall of the fuselage. When mounting the bellcrank brackets to the back of the cockpit module, the manual states: "Set CS14 to be vertical relative to the cockpit module; an eyeball assessment will be sufficient in this case. Ensure the spars are clear of the brackets." Then (again, following the lead in the manual), I tightened a one-quarter inch rod onto the bellcrank bracket with two nuts on either side. The end of the rod went well into the wing spar (where I left it), effectively lining up the bellcrank position. This still allows the bracket to spin in a circle. I picked a vertical position for both, and bonded them in, then later bonded the bolts into the bracket holes (and the 3mm plywood), to hold the bellcrank. Too late now, to redo the quarter inch rod technique. Upon later inspection, it seems that the outer topmost (with respect to the aircraft) quarter inch or so, of the bracket, exceeds the fuselage shell (using the cp module fuselage-connecting flanges as the reference point). Now granted, it was a straight line look, and the fuselage is curved. Even so- it seems to me, that it will butt up against the fuselage, and probably bend inboard slightly, affecting the aileron to cockpit bellcrank mating, by putting more distance between the two. I have not placed the module into the fuselage to check it yet, because the fuselage top currently rests on the bottom part, and have not had a chance to remove the two. Even so, I think it would be hard to see what's going on down there, upon placing the module into it, since the mechanism is pretty well hidden under the seat back. It could be a non-issue, if the hole cut in the side of the fuselage to accept the wing spar (wing root area, and molding), is big enough to encompass the top of the bracket. Has anyone run into this or had to correct for it, or any ideas? Thanks in advance, Greg Fuchs ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 12/29/2007 13:27


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:08:32 AM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Europaprecision?
    No problem with vinyl ester, but I would recommend to use glass instead of carbon. Carbon is too stiff and would stop the airplane flexing. Graham craig bastin wrote: > > Steve > > just on the subject of tanks and making new ones, Have you considered making > a tank out of carbon fiber and vinyl-ester resin


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:34:09 AM PST US
    From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Europaprecision?
    yes the one i intend to make as a test, will be glass an vinyl ester. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: Monday, 31 December 2007 11:08 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaprecision? <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> No problem with vinyl ester, but I would recommend to use glass instead of carbon. Carbon is too stiff and would stop the airplane flexing. Graham craig bastin wrote: > > Steve > > just on the subject of tanks and making new ones, Have you considered making > a tank out of carbon fiber and vinyl-ester resin 11:27 AM 11:27 AM


    Message 9


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    Time: 05:55:17 AM PST US
    From: "Steve Hagar" <hagargs@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Europaprecision?
    Those support pads that are "called for" are indeed "extra" as they were not in the original design and were put in as an afterthought when problems started coming about. The tank I have is one of the later versions as the replacement I have is exactly the same. Yes is does get hot here, however this has happened to others and it seems issues point to the fact that this material and the mounting design don't lend themselves to having the tank being emptied allowing it to dry out and have the material migrate. The SOP with aircraft is to refuel them before you put them away so this We could do a scientific experiment and have every one drain their tank and let them sit for six to 10 weeks and find out what the failure rate is. The issue is that this is an issue and as I have noted another manufacturer has issued a warning about this and now this should be formally documented as a characteristic of the aircraft. I did think of possibly molding a unit up from another material as kevlar or graphite however another individual mentioned that it would have to be bolted or otherwise mounted securely mounted in other than bonding. However I hate to act as a guinea pig on something that is not in widespread use. If I changed the mounting routine to something other than bonding, the polyethelyne tank would probably be more than satisfactory and that may be exactly what I do if the cost and logistics of making an aluminum tank become too onerous. I don't believe an aluminum tank would be bonded in either. I was sent a photo of an aluminum tank. I would very much like to know how it was installed and what kind of service it is giving if you are out there listeninng? Thanks, Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ > [Original Message] > From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Date: 12/30/2007 2:11:22 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaprecision? > > > > On Sunday, Dec 30, 2007, at 11:33 US/Pacific, Steve Hagar wrote: > > > I have tore into the top of the cockpit seatback to get at > > the gas tank to pull it out because of the crack. Once the top was off > > what > > was present was slightly disturbing. We have our extra support pads > > to > > keep the tank from pooching into our spar cavity and interfering with > > the > > aileron belcrank rod. Every interior surface looks like that. The > > top of > > the tank is vavy from expansion and the back surface exhibits the same > > condition. In all cases flat surfaces of the tank are stressed and > > buckled > > because of the expansion. You just don't see it unless you take the > > lid > > off. > > Steve, > > Thanks for sharing your frustrations w/ your fuel tank and passing on > your thoughts on the issue of cracking....sobering thoughts and pixs > indeed. A couple of questions: > > - When you say "extra support pads", do you mean that you installed > some pads in addition to those called for?...If so, can you describe > them? > > - At some point, I seem to recall that the supplied tanks were changed > in some way to eliminate or reduce expansion. When did you purchase > your original tank? Do you know if you have one of the earlier or later > versions of the tank? > > - Do you attribute your tank's failure (in part) to any extreme > temperature conditions which it may have been exposed to in your part > of the world? > > To Anyone: Would you be willing to share any protocols you follow which > you believe will guard against tank shrinkage and stress cracking? > > > I made note to a motorhead friend of mine at work that my airplane had > > gotten a crack in its gas tank. He knows nothing of Europas or of > > homebuilt aircraft. He asked me if I had a rotomolded polyethelyne > > tank. > > I said yes. He asked me if I left the tank dry for awhile. Yes > > again. He > > noted to me that there is a kit car company out there that makes > > custom > > tanks as these for cars. The company specifically states that if you > > mount > > the tank by fiberglassing it in and let it dry out. It will crack and > > they > > assume no responsibility. You are supposed to buy their mounting kit > > and > > strap it in. > > I got to confess that I questioned (to myself) the implications of > fibreglassing in a tank which is subject to expansion, but blithely > went ahead and installed it per plans, ignoring that little voice > saying, "Hey...this can't be good, there's got to be a better way!" > > As for my previous post about my opinion of the high degree of > precision built into the kit, I made that as an architect and > homebuilder, not as a machinist, so the world of tight tolerances is > one in which I've had virtually no direct experience. I do marvel at > some of the various hardware assemblies and know that if left to my own > devices for fabrication the results would not be > satisfactory...sometimes the designs seem a bit too clever but that's a > story for another time. > > > Also I also have a pair of reamers available 16 and 16.5 mm, one for > > the > > rough cut and one for the fine cut. I have cut them short and > > machined a > > hex on each end. That way you don't have to pull the endine way out > > and > > you can put a ratchet on the end to run them home. > > That sounds excellent...thanks for your offer to make them available to > others! > > Regards and good luck w/ getting your plane back in the air soon, > > Fred > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:14:52 AM PST US
    From: "pat" <pat@zbit.net>
    Subject: Europaprecision?
    Steve how many hours is on this plane? How much heavier will the aluminum tank be? Pat Ellison FSX sim Europa (poor subsitute but all I have now!) Wellington, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hagar Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 2:33 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europaprecision? Fred: I find it contrary to the general consensus that you are struck by the high degree of precision built into the kit. I was struck by what I considered that each and every model seems to me to be custom built. Many of the questions on the forum seek the solution to something not fitting or lining up right. My aircraft flies true but that is only because of the many hours making fixtures and jigs to line things up or to purposely make something slightly misaligned so that the left of the aircraft looks exactly like the right. Having a mill and lathe in the garage was a godsend. I had developed a high degree of patience and manual dexterity in crafting the plane. However now that I am older I seem to have lost alot of the patience. Old business: I have tore into the top of the cockpit seatback to get at the gas tank to pull it out because of the crack. Once the top was off what was present was slightly disturbing. We have our extra support pads to keep the tank from pooching into our spar cavity and interfering with the aileron belcrank rod. Every interior surface looks like that. The top of the tank is vavy from expansion and the back surface exhibits the same condition. In all cases flat surfaces of the tank are stressed and buckled because of the expansion. You just don't see it unless you take the lid off. I made note to a motorhead friend of mine at work that my airplane had gotten a crack in its gas tank. He knows nothing of Europas or of homebuilt aircraft. He asked me if I had a rotomolded polyethelyne tank. I said yes. He asked me if I left the tank dry for awhile. Yes again. He noted to me that there is a kit car company out there that makes custom tanks as these for cars. The company specifically states that if you mount the tank by fiberglassing it in and let it dry out. It will crack and they assume no responsibility. You are supposed to buy their mounting kit and strap it in. In any case I don't believe I am going to put my replacement polyethelyne tank back in the aircraft. I am going to pursue making an aluminum (aluminium for you other guys) tank up with AN fittings. Also I also have a pair of reamers available 16 and 16.5 mm, one for the rough cut and one for the fine cut. I have cut them short and machined a hex on each end. That way you don't have to pull the endine way out and you can put a ratchet on the end to run them home. Check some photos of the tank and the crack attached. Steve Hagar A 143 Mesa AZ > [Original Message] > From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Date: 12/28/2007 5:57:40 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Europaprecision > > > Hi Guys...and Happy New Year > > From time to time in the course of building I am struck by the high > degree of precision built into our kits. While I salute the company for > its high quality precision parts, I'm finding that occasionally I > haven't done my part (at least the first time around) in ensuring that > the end result measures up to the standard required for the eventual > hours of trouble-free flying which so many of you (sigh) are already > enjoying. > > For those of you who are still a'buildin' the monowheel and have yet to > assemble the main landing gear, here's a pitfall I stepped into which > is easily avoided...with just a tad of forethought: > > When installing the bushes in the shock absorber bottom plate (now > that's a bit of heavy iron!) LG07, do NOT loctite them in until AFTER > you have ensured that you have smooth rotation on the pin LG04. I > failed to do this and found that my bushes were mis-aligned just enough > to cause the pin to bind...if left in this way, there's no doubt in my > mind that the bushes wouldn't be able to do their job and the result > would be wear in the holes for the pin in the swing arm LG02 and LG02A > which I fear would shortly introduce all kinds of slop. > > As a consequence of my mistake, I have attempted to use heat to loosen > the loctite bond to no avail...even w/ a propane torch (while taking > care to not mar my nicely powdercoated LG07). Attempts to remove the > bushes are complicated by the soft nature of the bearings. > > Sooooo....I've just received 2 new bushings from mcmaster-carr (P/N > 6391K178) and my plan is to drill out the offending bushes and 'ave > another go. > > This time I'll do a trial assembly of all the parts which the pin LG04 > passes through before indulging w/ the loctite. > > Old Pennsylvania Dutch saying: Why do I get so late smarter? > > Fred > A194 > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:13:46 AM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Europaprecision?
    you will need to check the sizing on the glass cloth. Not all sizing is compatible with ester resins. The sizing helps bonding of the resin to the glass fibers Graham craig bastin wrote: > > yes the one i intend to make as a test, will be glass an vinyl ester. > > craig > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham Singleton > Sent: Monday, 31 December 2007 11:08 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaprecision? > > > <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com> > > No problem with vinyl ester, but I would recommend to use glass instead > of carbon. Carbon is too stiff and would stop the airplane flexing. > Graham > craig bastin wrote: > >> >>Steve >> >>just on the subject of tanks and making new ones, Have you considered > > making > >>a tank out of carbon fiber and vinyl-ester resin > > > > > > 11:27 AM > > 11:27 AM > > > > > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:17:17 AM PST US
    From: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner@wanadoo.fr>
    Subject: Roll trim system
    Following the recent thread about aileron trim, I have uploaded some pictures of my own roll trim system. This is a tension spring system located under the pilot seat and acting on the aileron torque tube using an RC Allen servo. It works very well and the added effort has no effect on the control feel in flight. To watch the pictures, go to the Europa Owner Gallery, my album is in the Flying Europas Gallery. Happy New Year to all. Remi Guerner F-PGKL


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:44:47 AM PST US
    From: "David.Corbett" <david.corbett5@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH
    Help, please! I incorporated Mod 74 in August '07 and, as part of the process, I replaced the two pip pins because one of the originals was damaged at the top. The new pip pins, supplied by EA 04 Ltd, are a different part number, 4BLPR2.00. These pins appeared to be a much better designed and engineered type, but are different in one vital respect; the old pins had a thin key ring right through the head of the centre part of the pin, such that when extracting the pip pins, upward lift on the thin key rings released the balls at the bottom. The new pins are different in that the "ring" by which they are extracted is "D" shaped, with the two ends fitted into the collar at the top of the outer part of the pin. The "D" shaped part ring is a very soft material, and the holes into which they are fitted are very shallow. Now I need to remove my wings. When I did Mod 74, both new pip pins went in fairly easily; the port one needed more hand pressure - with a drift - than the starboard one, which was easy to push in. Today I used my favourite "extraction" tool - a button hook on the end of a metal shoehorn - to try to get the pins out. The starboard pin came up part way easily, then came up against a solid stop; pushing the blue centre part of the pin down whilst pulling the ring had no effect - and in fact the ring then pulled completely away from the collar. Trying the port side was useless - the pin would not move at all, and I did not want to apply too much pressure, otherwise I would have pulled its ring off as well. Refitting the starboard ring in situ, and closing it up tight, is going to be very difficult. What do I do now? The simplest answer would be to push the pins up from below, whilst pulling the ring from the top in the normal way; however, although I had a hole for that purpose originally (before the wing "cuffs" were bonded on), I have no hole now, and have no accurate idea where to drill the holes. Does anyone - in UK initially - have holes for this purpose in the lower part of the wing, and if so could you let me have a template of where to drill the holes? How would anyone else solve this problem? Has anyone fitted these new type pip pins, and then tried to pull them out after a long period? Not a good way to end 2007! May we all have lots of excellent flying in 2008! Incidentally, whilst writing, Bryan Alsop and I are proposing to organise a DOTH (ie a fly-in) in memory of William Mills and Paul Sweeting, here at Shobdon, in spring 2008. We will soon be asking Europhiles to indicate their interest in attending, but first Bryan and I need to agree a date with Shobdon; watch this space! Happy New Year to you all! David


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:37:23 AM PST US
    From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
    Subject: Re: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH
    David, Could you not extract them with one of those pairs of long nosed pliers that have teeth on the end? I don't own such an animal but have seen them in tool shops. A preliminary administration of WD40 might help too but no doubt you have already thought of that! Regards & Happy New Year David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "David.Corbett" <david.corbett5@btinternet.com> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 5:43 PM Subject: Europa-List: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH > Help, please! > > > I incorporated Mod 74 in August '07 and, as part of the process, I replaced > the two pip pins because one of the originals was damaged at the top. The > new pip pins, supplied by EA 04 Ltd, are a different part number, 4BLPR2.00. > > > These pins appeared to be a much better designed and engineered type, but > are different in one vital respect; the old pins had a thin key ring right > through the head of the centre part of the pin, such that when extracting > the pip pins, upward lift on the thin key rings released the balls at the > bottom. > > > The new pins are different in that the "ring" by which they are extracted is > "D" shaped, with the two ends fitted into the collar at the top of the outer > part of the pin. The "D" shaped part ring is a very soft material, and the > holes into which they are fitted are very shallow. > > > Now I need to remove my wings. When I did Mod 74, both new pip pins went in > fairly easily; the port one needed more hand pressure - with a drift - than > the starboard one, which was easy to push in. > > > Today I used my favourite "extraction" tool - a button hook on the end of a > metal shoehorn - to try to get the pins out. The starboard pin came up part > way easily, then came up against a solid stop; pushing the blue centre part > of the pin down whilst pulling the ring had no effect - and in fact the ring > then pulled completely away from the collar. Trying the port side was > useless - the pin would not move at all, and I did not want to apply too > much pressure, otherwise I would have pulled its ring off as well. Refitting > the starboard ring in situ, and closing it up tight, is going to be very > difficult. > > > What do I do now? > > > The simplest answer would be to push the pins up from below, whilst pulling > the ring from the top in the normal way; however, although I had a hole for > that purpose originally (before the wing "cuffs" were bonded on), I have no > hole now, and have no accurate idea where to drill the holes. > > > Does anyone - in UK initially - have holes for this purpose in the lower > part of the wing, and if so could you let me have a template of where to > drill the holes? > > > How would anyone else solve this problem? Has anyone fitted these new type > pip pins, and then tried to pull them out after a long period? > > > Not a good way to end 2007! > > > May we all have lots of excellent flying in 2008! > > > Incidentally, whilst writing, Bryan Alsop and I are proposing to organise a > DOTH (ie a fly-in) in memory of William Mills and Paul Sweeting, here at > Shobdon, in spring 2008. We will soon be asking Europhiles to indicate their > interest in attending, but first Bryan and I need to agree a date with > Shobdon; watch this space! > > > Happy New Year to you all! > > > David > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 12:21:05 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH
    From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
    Hi David, Long nosed pliers is the way to do it, if needed you can even hammer one tip to an L shape. I've discarded all pulling rings to prevent "accidental" removement and always use the pliers, part of the tool set in the plane. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org


    Message 16


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    Time: 12:35:25 PM PST US
    From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH
    David, Having an assistant "swing" the wings either slightly forward or backwards (depending whether your replacement pins were longer or shorter respectively than the originals) may allow the pin to be withdrawn with less effort. Other than that, on mine, I can get to the lower end of the pins via the flap recess, with the flap in the lowered position. Pip pins need to be kept internally greased too, so that corrosion does not prevent operation or, worse, the balls not springing outwards to lock the pin. Rgds., Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: David.Corbett To: Europa Forum Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 5:43 PM Subject: Europa-List: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH Help, please! I incorporated Mod 74 in August '07 and, as part of the process, I replaced the two pip pins because one of the originals was damaged at the top. The new pip pins, supplied by EA 04 Ltd, are a different part number, 4BLPR2.00. These pins appeared to be a much better designed and engineered type, but are different in one vital respect; the old pins had a thin key ring right through the head of the centre part of the pin, such that when extracting the pip pins, upward lift on the thin key rings released the balls at the bottom. The new pins are different in that the "ring" by which they are extracted is "D" shaped, with the two ends fitted into the collar at the top of the outer part of the pin. The "D" shaped part ring is a very soft material, and the holes into which they are fitted are very shallow. Now I need to remove my wings. When I did Mod 74, both new pip pins went in fairly easily; the port one needed more hand pressure - with a drift - than the starboard one, which was easy to push in. Today I used my favourite "extraction" tool - a button hook on the end of a metal shoehorn - to try to get the pins out. The starboard pin came up part way easily, then came up against a solid stop; pushing the blue centre part of the pin down whilst pulling the ring had no effect - and in fact the ring then pulled completely away from the collar. Trying the port side was useless - the pin would not move at all, and I did not want to apply too much pressure, otherwise I would have pulled its ring off as well. Refitting the starboard ring in situ, and closing it up tight, is going to be very difficult. What do I do now? The simplest answer would be to push the pins up from below, whilst pulling the ring from the top in the normal way; however, although I had a hole for that purpose originally (before the wing "cuffs" were bonded on), I have no hole now, and have no accurate idea where to drill the holes. Does anyone - in UK initially - have holes for this purpose in the lower part of the wing, and if so could you let me have a template of where to drill the holes? How would anyone else solve this problem? Has anyone fitted these new type pip pins, and then tried to pull them out after a long period? Not a good way to end 2007! May we all have lots of excellent flying in 2008! Incidentally, whilst writing, Bryan Alsop and I are proposing to organise a DOTH (ie a fly-in) in memory of William Mills and Paul Sweeting, here at Shobdon, in spring 2008. We will soon be asking Europhiles to indicate their interest in attending, but first Bryan and I need to agree a date with Shobdon; watch this space! Happy New Year to you all! David


    Message 17


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    Time: 01:47:13 PM PST US
    From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Europaprecision?
    Sorry to get into this so late but on the subject of fiberglass tanks. Grahm is correct about the carbon fiber. The tank needs to move with the plane. I haven't had the courage to fill my four year empty tank. Pray for me. On the fiberglass resins for fuel tanks consider a hard lesson learned by my friends at Tampa Bay Aerosport. They had to disassemble a wing to remove the tanks after a gas station accidentally added ethanol to the premium fuel. Even the vinyl ester is affected as it turns it into a sticky sludge. Epoxy is worse. I never knew that the resins were so intolerant to ethanol. If you use auto fuel rather than 100LL keep an ethanol tester handy or only get auto fuel from a trusted fuel depot. For normal gasoline and av-gas, you'll have no problem. If you are unlucky like us in the green state of Florida many of our stations are adding 10% ethanol to all blends, they are supposed to post it on the pumps so be careful. The boating industry up north has sealed all their tanks (mostly poly and vinyl ester tanks) with a special coating for the inside of fiberglass tanks which makes them impervious to ethanol. I'll see if I can get a brand name and pass it on. Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: craig bastin<mailto:craigb@onthenet.com.au> To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 8:38 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europaprecision? <craigb@onthenet.com.au<mailto:craigb@onthenet.com.au>> yes the one i intend to make as a test, will be glass an vinyl ester. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-europa-list-server@ma tronics.com> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: Monday, 31 December 2007 11:08 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com<mailto:europa-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaprecision? <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com<mailto:grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>> No problem with vinyl ester, but I would recommend to use glass instead of carbon. Carbon is too stiff and would stop the airplane flexing. Graham craig bastin wrote: <craigb@onthenet.com.au<mailto:craigb@onthenet.com.au>> > > Steve > > just on the subject of tanks and making new ones, Have you considered making > a tank out of carbon fiber and vinyl-ester resin 11:27 AM 11:27 AM http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi on> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?Europa-List>


    Message 18


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    Time: 02:02:46 PM PST US
    From: "ALAN YERLY" <budyerly@msn.com>
    Subject: Ethanol coatings for fiberglass tanks
    Re: Fiberglass tanks. >From my friends at Tampa Bay Aerosport Bill Hirsch auto sealer for fuel tanks is promised to be alcohol resistent. There are to be 3 coats applied. The initial drying seems to show very good bond. The sealer has some MEK built-in so it actually makes a bond into the resin itself. Try it. Bud Yerly Custom Flight


    Message 19


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    Time: 02:21:40 PM PST US
    From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Europaprecision?
    The coating MAY be the "wax in styrene" that i was told i "Should" use but didnt have to. It is added to the vinyl ester to make it non porous at a molecular level apparently. Lets face it though, in most places the use of Auto fuel with ethanol is not allowed for aviation. At this point about 60% of the fuels in Australia have ethanol in them, and MOST of the 98 and 100 octane fuels have at least 5% ethanol. When I eventually get to the test sample tank, i will try the "wax in styrene" and then test it with a 50% ethanol blend and let you all know the results. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ALAN YERLY Sent: Tuesday, 1 January 2008 7:43 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaprecision? Sorry to get into this so late but on the subject of fiberglass tanks. Grahm is correct about the carbon fiber. The tank needs to move with the plane. I haven't had the courage to fill my four year empty tank. Pray for me. On the fiberglass resins for fuel tanks consider a hard lesson learned by my friends at Tampa Bay Aerosport. They had to disassemble a wing to remove the tanks after a gas station accidentally added ethanol to the premium fuel. Even the vinyl ester is affected as it turns it into a sticky sludge. Epoxy is worse. I never knew that the resins were so intolerant to ethanol. If you use auto fuel rather than 100LL keep an ethanol tester handy or only get auto fuel from a trusted fuel depot. For normal gasoline and av-gas, you'll have no problem. If you are unlucky like us in the green state of Florida many of our stations are adding 10% ethanol to all blends, they are supposed to post it on the pumps so be careful. The boating industry up north has sealed all their tanks (mostly poly and vinyl ester tanks) with a special coating for the inside of fiberglass tanks which makes them impervious to ethanol. I'll see if I can get a brand name and pass it on. Bud Yerly ----- Original Message ----- From: craig bastin To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 8:38 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europaprecision? <craigb@onthenet.com.au> yes the one i intend to make as a test, will be glass an vinyl ester. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: Monday, 31 December 2007 11:08 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europaprecision? <grahamsingleton@btinternetcom> No problem with vinyl ester, but I would recommend to use glass instead of carbon. Carbon is too stiff and would stop the airplane flexing. Graham craig bastin wrote: <craigb@onthenet.com.au> > > Steve > > just on the subject of tanks and making new ones, Have you considered making > a tank out of carbon fiber and vinyl-ester resin 11:27 AM 11:27 nbsp; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, --> http://www.matron====================== bsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 11:27 AM


    Message 20


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    Time: 03:30:32 PM PST US
    From: Rman <topglock@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: G-CHOX
    Paul and all, Just back from that awful weather, in Florida. Temps in the upper 70's to lower 80's. Fog burned off by 8am and sunny days. I tell you, it was hell! Hell, I say! Kidding, of course. Sorry you're experiencing such unpleasant weather, my friend. Better days are ahead, though. I know you'll have PJ back in the air in no time. Short flight report: Baby Blue underwent a cable change at last oil change. Yep, I bit the bullet and changed out the throttle cables to solids. Kept the original housings and slipped in the McMaster-Karr piano wire. While I was at it, I changed both throttle springs. After syncing the carbs, the results were that Baby Blue has never run so smoothly, when going through different power settings. Used to get vibrations at different settings, but, no more. And that annoying "out of sync" rough running is gone... Over all, she performed like the champion she is for the 5 hour flight, each way. Cruise hovered around 132 kts and, with the luck of a good tailwind saw 145 to 152 over the ground at times. Did I ever mention that I really love this little bird? :) Oh, and golf, Disney World and the three gun match were all superb...! Jeff - Baby Blue 360 hrs Paul McAllister wrote: > > Jeff, > > Please send some of that weather my way. Its below freezing here and I > haven't been able to get N378PJ out all month. > > Paul > > On Dec 24, 2007 9:51 PM, Rman <topglock@cox.net> wrote: > >> Jim, >> >> Mary and I will be sucking up some of that great weather, Dec. 26-30. >> We'll be flying into Winter Haven KGIF... >> >> Jeff - Baby Blue >> 350 hours >> >> jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote: >> >> Alan- >> >> Florida, where it is 74 degrees F Christmas Eve! >> >> Jim Puglise, Punta Gorda, FL >> gt; _- >> >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >


    Message 21


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    Time: 05:15:22 PM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH
    Hi! David Count me in on the Fly In. Happy New year to one and all..may it be better than 2007 ...and release us from Europe ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David.Corbett Sent: 31 December 2007 17:44 Subject: Europa-List: Mod 74 - after-effect; and Wm Mills DOTH Help, please! I incorporated Mod 74 in August '07 and, as part of the process, I replaced the two pip pins because one of the originals was damaged at the top. The new pip pins, supplied by EA 04 Ltd, are a different part number, 4BLPR2.00. These pins appeared to be a much better designed and engineered type, but are different in one vital respect; the old pins had a thin key ring right through the head of the centre part of the pin, such that when extracting the pip pins, upward lift on the thin key rings released the balls at the bottom. The new pins are different in that the "ring" by which they are extracted is "D" shaped, with the two ends fitted into the collar at the top of the outer part of the pin. The "D" shaped part ring is a very soft material, and the holes into which they are fitted are very shallow. Now I need to remove my wings. When I did Mod 74, both new pip pins went in fairly easily; the port one needed more hand pressure - with a drift - than the starboard one, which was easy to push in. Today I used my favourite "extraction" tool - a button hook on the end of a metal shoehorn - to try to get the pins out. The starboard pin came up part way easily, then came up against a solid stop; pushing the blue centre part of the pin down whilst pulling the ring had no effect - and in fact the ring then pulled completely away from the collar. Trying the port side was useless - the pin would not move at all, and I did not want to apply too much pressure, otherwise I would have pulled its ring off as well. Refitting the starboard ring in situ, and closing it up tight, is going to be very difficult. What do I do now? The simplest answer would be to push the pins up from below, whilst pulling the ring from the top in the normal way; however, although I had a hole for that purpose originally (before the wing "cuffs" were bonded on), I have no hole now, and have no accurate idea where to drill the holes. Does anyone - in UK initially - have holes for this purpose in the lower part of the wing, and if so could you let me have a template of where to drill the holes? How would anyone else solve this problem? Has anyone fitted these new type pip pins, and then tried to pull them out after a long period? Not a good way to end 2007! May we all have lots of excellent flying in 2008! Incidentally, whilst writing, Bryan Alsop and I are proposing to organise a DOTH (ie a fly-in) in memory of William Mills and Paul Sweeting, here at Shobdon, in spring 2008. We will soon be asking Europhiles to indicate their interest in attending, but first Bryan and I need to agree a date with Shobdon; watch this space! Happy New Year to you all! David


    Message 22


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    Time: 09:51:58 PM PST US
    From: "Laptop JR" <jrgowing@bigpond.net.au>
    Subject: Europa Mandatory Mod 73 - re -use of original Pip-Pins through
    the TP4 and TP6's Fellow builders My study of Mod 73 tells me that we are to put a 10mm piece of masking tape on the underneath face of the TP6's to cover the hole and then two layers of bid (1" squares) perhaps added to some dregs of dry flox used to fill the corners of the hole in the skin, and then another two layers of bid from the 8" squares of bid that keep the TP 6 in place. When I put a pip-pin throught the dry TP6 there appeared to be about 1.5mm of clearance to the protruding balls. As I am ready to lay glass, My question is please --------- Has anyone done the Mod 73 Job and been able to still use their original pip pins? In other words - is it worth striving to keep cover over the TP6 as thin as possible? Or is it just impossible to retain use of the original pip pins? Sincerely JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit No 327 in Oz as I try to complete tailplanes before filling them. --




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