Today's Message Index:
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1. 02:04 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (David Joyce)
2. 08:05 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (Karl Heindl)
3. 10:46 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (David Joyce)
4. 11:04 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (Fred Klein)
5. 12:51 PM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (William Daniell)
6. 01:32 PM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
7. 05:50 PM - Reamer Anyone? (Troy Maynor)
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Subject: | Re: auxillary fuel tank |
Fred & Kevin, I did ask Thomas what he did for extra fuel tanks and he told
me he had no less than 4 Europa tanks packed in various spots including I
believe 2 in the passenger seat. I did have the impression it would not be
worth asking the PFA /now LAA to approve this particular solution! Regards,
David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank
>
> On Wednesday, Jan 2, 2008, at 06:40 US/Pacific, Karl Heindl wrote:
>
> > Thomas Scherer probably used something similar on his flight across
> > the Pacific, also Eric Trombley has a marine tank. I think David Joyce
> > is preparing for his flight to Australia.
>
> I recall seeing what appeared to be several standard Europa long ranger
> tanks in a photo on Thomas's website, though it might have been his
> setup for crossing the Atlantic rather than the Pacific (where he may
> have done something differently).
>
> In any event, for myself, I am very leery of jerry-rigging marine tanks
> for our sweet little bird due to questionable crashworthiness,
> particularly in the aftermath of the crash at Livermore,
> notwithstanding my propensity to propose and execute various mods which
> suit my fancy but allow me to remain in my personal comfort zone.
>
> Fred (still in the armchair, i.e., not flying)
> A194
> --
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>
Message 2
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Subject: | auxillary fuel tank |
Fred,
I agree, and the installation of almost any auxiliary tank is a dodgy acces
sory. Also the main tank is not exactly great, is it ? Some of them have de
veloped cracks for no apparent reason, and if I recall, it is made of two s
ections which are welded together. They also tend to change shape. When I i
nspected mine a couple of years ago, I noticed that the back wall had buckl
ed inwards, in spite of the enforcement ridges. Andy told me not to worry a
bout it.
To use the Livermore crash as an example of failing marine tanks is really
pure speculation. In such a high impact crash I imagine that any FULL tank
would fail, and that the resulting fire was merely incidental in the two fa
talities.
I considered the Europa longrange tank, but it has such an awkward shape fo
r a trigear, making it difficult to secure, and it doesn't look any stronge
r than what I am using. Again, guesswork, only a real test with tanks full
of water and dropped from a certain height would constitute a valid compari
son.
Some builders tell us about their solutions with aluminum tanks, but they d
on't tell us how the rest of us might acquire one and with the connection
accessories.
Maybe someone in the business, like Bud Yerly, can manufacture a carbon fib
re solution, that is portable, and fits on the seat and the baggage compart
ment of any Europa. If it also fits other homebuilts, he could generate a n
ice extra income. It should not hold more than 30 liters, otherwise it is j
ust too heavy to carry.
The way tanks are secured is just as important as the tank itself. Also, wh
en I use mine, I empty it as soon as there is enough room in the main tank,
reducing the fire risk considerably on a (crash)landing.
Trans-ocean pilots are in a totally different environment, and have to take
a calculated risk. Remember Lindbergh ? He practically sat in the middle o
f a giant fuel tank, with zero forward visibility.
Karl
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Message 3
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Subject: | Re: auxillary fuel tank |
Duncan, Amen to that, although they approved Manuel Querioz's plane with a
fuel tank filler sitting in the middle of the plane! On the other hand I
think that an outside filler position may have something to recommend it if
the natives of Bongoland are going to insist that only they can fill fuel
tanks!
I didn't mention it but there is also a stipulation that the fuel
pump must not draw fuel from more than one tank at a time, which the
standard Europa tank plumbing doesn't meet. It may be that the LAA have been
taking things a bit more seriously recently as they felt CAA and EASA
breathing more noticeably down their necks!
Regards, David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank
<ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> David,
> As I understand it, it was point 3 that prevented PFA approval of the
Europa
> Long Ranger tank in the UK; strange as many other a/c in the PFA fleet
have
> similar arrangements. Hope you can convince the PFA that the plug-in
filler
> funnel will not be ditched at the first opportunity!
>
> Rgds.,
> Duncan McF
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank
>
>
> > <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
> >
> > Kevin, I have designed a composite 110 litre tank to sit in the
passenger
> > seat and to use the existing straps as constraint. It probably doesn't
> > answer your needs but if so I would be happy to give you more detail. In
> > this country there are problems with the Europa Long Ranger tank, which
I
> > understand has never got PFA approval. To count as an auxiliary tank (as
> > opposed to a ferry tank - which introduces its own restrictions) it
needs
> > to
> > pass CSA-VLA regs, which state among other things:
> > 1) the tank must cope with 24kPa (3.481psi) overpressure, that is to say
a
> > tad over 500lbs per sq ft!
> > 2) The restraints must withstand a 9g forward and 3g upward acceleration
> > loads.
> > 3) The tank filler must be located outside the personnel compartment (on
> > my
> > design achieved by having a plug in filler funnel with a dog leg so that
> > the
> > actual filler orifice is outside)
> > 4) Connections must be such that no fuel pump can draw fuel from more
than
> > one tank at a time.
> > My tank has not yet passed PFA/LAA approval although Andy Draper
> > has
> > made encouraging noises.
> > Of course on your side of the pond you can probably ignore such
> > restrictions, but a loose fuel tank must be one of the least desirable
> > extras with a nasty landing!
> > Happy New Year, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gotsky.com>
> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:07 AM
> > Subject: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank
> >
> >
<kevann@gotsky.com>
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> Has anyone out there put together their own axillary fuel tank design?
I
> >> am looking for ideas, probably a commercially available plastic tank
> >> that could be strapped into the baggage area of an XS mono. I have the
> >> Singleton fuel tank outlets with vacant taps because I elected to not
> >> install a sight gage, so I am considering plumbing in there, to the
Main
> >> side, and not siphoning as the Europa design does.Any one doing
> >> something like that?
> >>
> >> I would buy a Europa aux tank but the cost is just a bit crazy, with
> >> the dollar so low.
> >> Anybody got one they want to let go?
> >>
> >> I am not yet flying, but with the 914 cruising at 16 to 18 grand it
> >> would seem that 18.5 gallons is a bit limiting? It'd be nice to keep
> >> going on long XC flights once you are way up there cruising along at
200
> >> mph TAS.
> >>
> >> Kevin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: auxillary fuel tank |
Karl,
Thank you for your thoughtful post and the several suggestions included
therein...I couldn't agree with you more. Yes, my mention of Livermore
is speculation, with "the resulting fire (being) merely incidental in
the two fatalities", witness Cliff and Mary Shaw's accident (low speed
stall/spin) but no fire.
As I have a mono, I intend to fit the standard aux. tank.
Your comments re: the main tank are spot on, and as time goes by,
hopefully we'll all learn more about how to minimize the
stress-cracking tendencies. I regret not looking closely at the issue
when I was installing my tank when those little bells were ringing in
my mind vis a vis the rigid bonding in of a flexible, expandable
component.
I'm curious as to whether those who have had to replace their main
tanks have replicated the original directions for tank installation or
have made adjustments which both provide a robust fit between the CM
and the tank but nonetheless allow for some tank expansion.
Fred
A194
On Thursday, Jan 3, 2008, at 08:03 US/Pacific, Karl Heindl wrote:
> -
> Fred,
> -
> I agree, and the installation of almost any auxiliary tank is a dodgy
> accessory.-Also the main tank is not exactly great, is it ? Some of
> them have developed cracks for no apparent reason, and if I recall, it
> is made of two sections which are welded together. They also tend to
> change shape. When I inspected mine a couple of years ago, I noticed
> that the back wall had buckled inwards, in spite of the enforcement
> ridges. Andy told me not to worry about it.
> To use the Livermore crash as an example of failing marine tanks is
> really pure speculation. In such a high impact crash I imagine that
> any-FULL tank would fail, and that the resulting fire was merely
> incidental in the two fatalities.
> I considered the Europa longrange tank, but it has such an awkward
> shape for a trigear, making it difficult to secure, and it doesn't
> look any stronger than what I am using. Again, guesswork, only a real
> test with tanks full of water and dropped from a certain height would
> constitute a valid comparison.
> Some builders tell us about their solutions with aluminum tanks, but
> they don't tell us- how the rest of us might acquire one and with the
> connection accessories.
> Maybe someone in the business, like Bud Yerly, can manufacture a
> carbon fibre solution, that is portable, and fits on the seat and the
> baggage compartment of any Europa. If it also fits other homebuilts,
> he could generate a nice extra income. It should not hold more than 30
> liters, otherwise it is just too heavy to carry.
> The way tanks are secured is just as important as the tank itself.
> Also, when I use mine, I empty it as soon as there is enough room in
> the main tank, reducing the fire risk considerably on a > (crash)landing.
> Trans-ocean pilots are in a totally different environment, and have to
> take a calculated risk. Remember Lindbergh ? He practically sat in the
> middle of a giant fuel tank, with zero forward visibility.
> -
> Karl
> -
> -
> -
>
>
> <html><div></div>
>
>
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Message 5
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Subject: | auxillary fuel tank |
Has anyone considered the Australian Turtlepac option?
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 14:03
Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank
Karl,
Thank you for your thoughtful post and the several suggestions included
therein...I couldn't agree with you more. Yes, my mention of Livermore is
speculation, with "the resulting fire (being) merely incidental in the two
fatalities", witness Cliff and Mary Shaw's accident (low speed stall/spin)
but no fire.
As I have a mono, I intend to fit the standard aux. tank.
Your comments re: the main tank are spot on, and as time goes by, hopefully
we'll all learn more about how to minimize the stress-cracking tendencies. I
regret not looking closely at the issue when I was installing my tank when
those little bells were ringing in my mind vis a vis the rigid bonding in of
a flexible, expandable component.
I'm curious as to whether those who have had to replace their main tanks
have replicated the original directions for tank installation or have made
adjustments which both provide a robust fit between the CM and the tank but
nonetheless allow for some tank expansion.
Fred
A194
On Thursday, Jan 3, 2008, at 08:03 US/Pacific, Karl Heindl wrote:
Fred,
I agree, and the installation of almost any auxiliary tank is a dodgy
accessory. Also the main tank is not exactly great, is it ? Some of them
have developed cracks for no apparent reason, and if I recall, it is made of
two sections which are welded together. They also tend to change shape. When
I inspected mine a couple of years ago, I noticed that the back wall had
buckled inwards, in spite of the enforcement ridges. Andy told me not to
worry about it.
To use the Livermore crash as an example of failing marine tanks is really
pure speculation. In such a high impact crash I imagine that any FULL tank
would fail, and that the resulting fire was merely incidental in the two
fatalities.
I considered the Europa longrange tank, but it has such an awkward shape for
a trigear, making it difficult to secure, and it doesn't look any stronger
than what I am using. Again, guesswork, only a real test with tanks full of
water and dropped from a certain height would constitute a valid comparison.
Some builders tell us about their solutions with aluminum tanks, but they
don't tell us how the rest of us might acquire one and with the connection
accessories.
Maybe someone in the business, like Bud Yerly, can manufacture a carbon
fibre solution, that is portable, and fits on the seat and the baggage
compartment of any Europa. If it also fits other homebuilts, he could
generate a nice extra income. It should not hold more than 30 liters,
otherwise it is just too heavy to carry.
The way tanks are secured is just as important as the tank itself. Also,
when I use mine, I empty it as soon as there is enough room in the main
tank, reducing the fire risk considerably on a (crash)landing.
Trans-ocean pilots are in a totally different environment, and have to take
a calculated risk. Remember Lindbergh ? He practically sat in the middle of
a giant fuel tank, with zero forward visibility.
Karl
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Message 6
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Subject: | Re: auxillary fuel tank |
Fred,
I would not expect the standard tank to be bonded in rigidly.
It sits on a "shelf" on the forward side, is laterally restrained by a
saddle and contained by the 'box' around it. It is not likely that the
apparent bond between the glassed-in supports and tank would last very
long as fuel loads cause the tank to cyclically change shape.
It would be a fairly simple matter to debond any residual adhesion of
the tank to the supports, if you are worried about this.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Klein
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank
Karl,
Thank you for your thoughtful post and the several suggestions
included therein...I couldn't agree with you more. Yes, my mention of
Livermore is speculation, with "the resulting fire (being) merely
incidental in the two fatalities", witness Cliff and Mary Shaw's
accident (low speed stall/spin) but no fire.
As I have a mono, I intend to fit the standard aux. tank.
Your comments re: the main tank are spot on, and as time goes by,
hopefully we'll all learn more about how to minimize the stress-cracking
tendencies. I regret not looking closely at the issue when I was
installing my tank when those little bells were ringing in my mind vis a
vis the rigid bonding in of a flexible, expandable component.
I'm curious as to whether those who have had to replace their main
tanks have replicated the original directions for tank installation or
have made adjustments which both provide a robust fit between the CM and
the tank but nonetheless allow for some tank expansion.
Fred
A194
On Thursday, Jan 3, 2008, at 08:03 US/Pacific, Karl Heindl wrote:
Fred,
I agree, and the installation of almost any auxiliary tank is a
dodgy accessory. Also the main tank is not exactly great, is it ? Some
of them have developed cracks for no apparent reason, and if I recall,
it is made of two sections which are welded together. They also tend to
change shape. When I inspected mine a couple of years ago, I noticed
that the back wall had buckled inwards, in spite of the enforcement
ridges. Andy told me not to worry about it.
To use the Livermore crash as an example of failing marine tanks is
really pure speculation. In such a high impact crash I imagine that any
FULL tank would fail, and that the resulting fire was merely incidental
in the two fatalities.
I considered the Europa longrange tank, but it has such an awkward
shape for a trigear, making it difficult to secure, and it doesn't look
any stronger than what I am using. Again, guesswork, only a real test
with tanks full of water and dropped from a certain height would
constitute a valid comparison.
Some builders tell us about their solutions with aluminum tanks, but
they don't tell us how the rest of us might acquire one and with the
connection accessories.
Maybe someone in the business, like Bud Yerly, can manufacture a
carbon fibre solution, that is portable, and fits on the seat and the
baggage compartment of any Europa. If it also fits other homebuilts, he
could generate a nice extra income. It should not hold more than 30
liters, otherwise it is just too heavy to carry.
The way tanks are secured is just as important as the tank itself.
Also, when I use mine, I empty it as soon as there is enough room in the
main tank, reducing the fire risk considerably on a (crash)landing.
Trans-ocean pilots are in a totally different environment, and have
to take a calculated risk. Remember Lindbergh ? He practically sat in
the middle of a giant fuel tank, with zero forward visibility.
Karl
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Message 7
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Fellow Europa Dudes and Dudettes,
I am done with the 16.5 mm reamer that Kevin Klinefelter passed on to me. If
the next person in need of it will send me an email I will gladly send it
on. Not sure who the actual owner is when it has made it's rounds though.
Thanks again Kevin.
Troy Maynor
N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
Left to finish:
Paint,(some) interior,engine install, (some) wiring.
Weaverville, NC USA
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