---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/03/08: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:04 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (David Joyce) 2. 08:05 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (Karl Heindl) 3. 10:46 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (David Joyce) 4. 11:04 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (Fred Klein) 5. 12:51 PM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (William Daniell) 6. 01:32 PM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 7. 05:50 PM - Reamer Anyone? (Troy Maynor) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:04:11 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Fred & Kevin, I did ask Thomas what he did for extra fuel tanks and he told me he had no less than 4 Europa tanks packed in various spots including I believe 2 in the passenger seat. I did have the impression it would not be worth asking the PFA /now LAA to approve this particular solution! Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 6:23 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank > > On Wednesday, Jan 2, 2008, at 06:40 US/Pacific, Karl Heindl wrote: > > > Thomas Scherer probably used something similar on his flight across > > the Pacific, also Eric Trombley has a marine tank. I think David Joyce > > is preparing for his flight to Australia. > > I recall seeing what appeared to be several standard Europa long ranger > tanks in a photo on Thomas's website, though it might have been his > setup for crossing the Atlantic rather than the Pacific (where he may > have done something differently). > > In any event, for myself, I am very leery of jerry-rigging marine tanks > for our sweet little bird due to questionable crashworthiness, > particularly in the aftermath of the crash at Livermore, > notwithstanding my propensity to propose and execute various mods which > suit my fancy but allow me to remain in my personal comfort zone. > > Fred (still in the armchair, i.e., not flying) > A194 > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:06 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Fred, I agree, and the installation of almost any auxiliary tank is a dodgy acces sory. Also the main tank is not exactly great, is it ? Some of them have de veloped cracks for no apparent reason, and if I recall, it is made of two s ections which are welded together. They also tend to change shape. When I i nspected mine a couple of years ago, I noticed that the back wall had buckl ed inwards, in spite of the enforcement ridges. Andy told me not to worry a bout it. To use the Livermore crash as an example of failing marine tanks is really pure speculation. In such a high impact crash I imagine that any FULL tank would fail, and that the resulting fire was merely incidental in the two fa talities. I considered the Europa longrange tank, but it has such an awkward shape fo r a trigear, making it difficult to secure, and it doesn't look any stronge r than what I am using. Again, guesswork, only a real test with tanks full of water and dropped from a certain height would constitute a valid compari son. Some builders tell us about their solutions with aluminum tanks, but they d on't tell us how the rest of us might acquire one and with the connection accessories. Maybe someone in the business, like Bud Yerly, can manufacture a carbon fib re solution, that is portable, and fits on the seat and the baggage compart ment of any Europa. If it also fits other homebuilts, he could generate a n ice extra income. It should not hold more than 30 liters, otherwise it is j ust too heavy to carry. The way tanks are secured is just as important as the tank itself. Also, wh en I use mine, I empty it as soon as there is enough room in the main tank, reducing the fire risk considerably on a (crash)landing. Trans-ocean pilots are in a totally different environment, and have to take a calculated risk. Remember Lindbergh ? He practically sat in the middle o f a giant fuel tank, with zero forward visibility. Karl
================== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:38 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Duncan, Amen to that, although they approved Manuel Querioz's plane with a fuel tank filler sitting in the middle of the plane! On the other hand I think that an outside filler position may have something to recommend it if the natives of Bongoland are going to insist that only they can fill fuel tanks! I didn't mention it but there is also a stipulation that the fuel pump must not draw fuel from more than one tank at a time, which the standard Europa tank plumbing doesn't meet. It may be that the LAA have been taking things a bit more seriously recently as they felt CAA and EASA breathing more noticeably down their necks! Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:04 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank > > David, > As I understand it, it was point 3 that prevented PFA approval of the Europa > Long Ranger tank in the UK; strange as many other a/c in the PFA fleet have > similar arrangements. Hope you can convince the PFA that the plug-in filler > funnel will not be ditched at the first opportunity! > > Rgds., > Duncan McF > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Joyce" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:38 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank > > > > > > > > Kevin, I have designed a composite 110 litre tank to sit in the passenger > > seat and to use the existing straps as constraint. It probably doesn't > > answer your needs but if so I would be happy to give you more detail. In > > this country there are problems with the Europa Long Ranger tank, which I > > understand has never got PFA approval. To count as an auxiliary tank (as > > opposed to a ferry tank - which introduces its own restrictions) it needs > > to > > pass CSA-VLA regs, which state among other things: > > 1) the tank must cope with 24kPa (3.481psi) overpressure, that is to say a > > tad over 500lbs per sq ft! > > 2) The restraints must withstand a 9g forward and 3g upward acceleration > > loads. > > 3) The tank filler must be located outside the personnel compartment (on > > my > > design achieved by having a plug in filler funnel with a dog leg so that > > the > > actual filler orifice is outside) > > 4) Connections must be such that no fuel pump can draw fuel from more than > > one tank at a time. > > My tank has not yet passed PFA/LAA approval although Andy Draper > > has > > made encouraging noises. > > Of course on your side of the pond you can probably ignore such > > restrictions, but a loose fuel tank must be one of the least desirable > > extras with a nasty landing! > > Happy New Year, David Joyce, G-XSDJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kevin Klinefelter" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:07 AM > > Subject: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank > > > > > >> > >> Hi All, > >> > >> Has anyone out there put together their own axillary fuel tank design? I > >> am looking for ideas, probably a commercially available plastic tank > >> that could be strapped into the baggage area of an XS mono. I have the > >> Singleton fuel tank outlets with vacant taps because I elected to not > >> install a sight gage, so I am considering plumbing in there, to the Main > >> side, and not siphoning as the Europa design does.Any one doing > >> something like that? > >> > >> I would buy a Europa aux tank but the cost is just a bit crazy, with > >> the dollar so low. > >> Anybody got one they want to let go? > >> > >> I am not yet flying, but with the 914 cruising at 16 to 18 grand it > >> would seem that 18.5 gallons is a bit limiting? It'd be nice to keep > >> going on long XC flights once you are way up there cruising along at 200 > >> mph TAS. > >> > >> Kevin > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank From: Fred Klein Karl, Thank you for your thoughtful post and the several suggestions included therein...I couldn't agree with you more. Yes, my mention of Livermore is speculation, with "the resulting fire (being) merely incidental in the two fatalities", witness Cliff and Mary Shaw's accident (low speed stall/spin) but no fire. As I have a mono, I intend to fit the standard aux. tank. Your comments re: the main tank are spot on, and as time goes by, hopefully we'll all learn more about how to minimize the stress-cracking tendencies. I regret not looking closely at the issue when I was installing my tank when those little bells were ringing in my mind vis a vis the rigid bonding in of a flexible, expandable component. I'm curious as to whether those who have had to replace their main tanks have replicated the original directions for tank installation or have made adjustments which both provide a robust fit between the CM and the tank but nonetheless allow for some tank expansion. Fred A194 On Thursday, Jan 3, 2008, at 08:03 US/Pacific, Karl Heindl wrote: > - > Fred, > - > I agree, and the installation of almost any auxiliary tank is a dodgy > accessory.-Also the main tank is not exactly great, is it ? Some of > them have developed cracks for no apparent reason, and if I recall, it > is made of two sections which are welded together. They also tend to > change shape. When I inspected mine a couple of years ago, I noticed > that the back wall had buckled inwards, in spite of the enforcement > ridges. Andy told me not to worry about it. > To use the Livermore crash as an example of failing marine tanks is > really pure speculation. In such a high impact crash I imagine that > any-FULL tank would fail, and that the resulting fire was merely > incidental in the two fatalities. > I considered the Europa longrange tank, but it has such an awkward > shape for a trigear, making it difficult to secure, and it doesn't > look any stronger than what I am using. Again, guesswork, only a real > test with tanks full of water and dropped from a certain height would > constitute a valid comparison. > Some builders tell us about their solutions with aluminum tanks, but > they don't tell us- how the rest of us might acquire one and with the > connection accessories. > Maybe someone in the business, like Bud Yerly, can manufacture a > carbon fibre solution, that is portable, and fits on the seat and the > baggage compartment of any Europa. If it also fits other homebuilts, > he could generate a nice extra income. It should not hold more than 30 > liters, otherwise it is just too heavy to carry. > The way tanks are secured is just as important as the tank itself. > Also, when I use mine, I empty it as soon as there is enough room in > the main tank, reducing the fire risk considerably on a > (crash)landing. > Trans-ocean pilots are in a totally different environment, and have to > take a calculated risk. Remember Lindbergh ? He practically sat in the > middle of a giant fuel tank, with zero forward visibility. > - > Karl > - > - > - > > >
> > > > > .ExternalClass .EC_EmailQuote > {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;} -> > http://forums.matronics.c------- - List Contribution Web Si te - > _p;----------------------- -&nbs.matronics.com/contribution" > target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contr========= ===== > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:13 PM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Has anyone considered the Australian Turtlepac option? Will From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 14:03 Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Karl, Thank you for your thoughtful post and the several suggestions included therein...I couldn't agree with you more. Yes, my mention of Livermore is speculation, with "the resulting fire (being) merely incidental in the two fatalities", witness Cliff and Mary Shaw's accident (low speed stall/spin) but no fire. As I have a mono, I intend to fit the standard aux. tank. Your comments re: the main tank are spot on, and as time goes by, hopefully we'll all learn more about how to minimize the stress-cracking tendencies. I regret not looking closely at the issue when I was installing my tank when those little bells were ringing in my mind vis a vis the rigid bonding in of a flexible, expandable component. I'm curious as to whether those who have had to replace their main tanks have replicated the original directions for tank installation or have made adjustments which both provide a robust fit between the CM and the tank but nonetheless allow for some tank expansion. Fred A194 On Thursday, Jan 3, 2008, at 08:03 US/Pacific, Karl Heindl wrote: Fred, I agree, and the installation of almost any auxiliary tank is a dodgy accessory. Also the main tank is not exactly great, is it ? Some of them have developed cracks for no apparent reason, and if I recall, it is made of two sections which are welded together. They also tend to change shape. When I inspected mine a couple of years ago, I noticed that the back wall had buckled inwards, in spite of the enforcement ridges. Andy told me not to worry about it. To use the Livermore crash as an example of failing marine tanks is really pure speculation. In such a high impact crash I imagine that any FULL tank would fail, and that the resulting fire was merely incidental in the two fatalities. I considered the Europa longrange tank, but it has such an awkward shape for a trigear, making it difficult to secure, and it doesn't look any stronger than what I am using. Again, guesswork, only a real test with tanks full of water and dropped from a certain height would constitute a valid comparison. Some builders tell us about their solutions with aluminum tanks, but they don't tell us how the rest of us might acquire one and with the connection accessories. Maybe someone in the business, like Bud Yerly, can manufacture a carbon fibre solution, that is portable, and fits on the seat and the baggage compartment of any Europa. If it also fits other homebuilts, he could generate a nice extra income. It should not hold more than 30 liters, otherwise it is just too heavy to carry. The way tanks are secured is just as important as the tank itself. Also, when I use mine, I empty it as soon as there is enough room in the main tank, reducing the fire risk considerably on a (crash)landing. Trans-ocean pilots are in a totally different environment, and have to take a calculated risk. Remember Lindbergh ? He practically sat in the middle of a giant fuel tank, with zero forward visibility. Karl
.ExternalClass .EC_EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;} -> http://forums.matronics.c - List Contribution Web Site - _p; &nbs.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contr============== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution 12:09 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:36 PM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Fred, I would not expect the standard tank to be bonded in rigidly. It sits on a "shelf" on the forward side, is laterally restrained by a saddle and contained by the 'box' around it. It is not likely that the apparent bond between the glassed-in supports and tank would last very long as fuel loads cause the tank to cyclically change shape. It would be a fairly simple matter to debond any residual adhesion of the tank to the supports, if you are worried about this. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Karl, Thank you for your thoughtful post and the several suggestions included therein...I couldn't agree with you more. Yes, my mention of Livermore is speculation, with "the resulting fire (being) merely incidental in the two fatalities", witness Cliff and Mary Shaw's accident (low speed stall/spin) but no fire. As I have a mono, I intend to fit the standard aux. tank. Your comments re: the main tank are spot on, and as time goes by, hopefully we'll all learn more about how to minimize the stress-cracking tendencies. I regret not looking closely at the issue when I was installing my tank when those little bells were ringing in my mind vis a vis the rigid bonding in of a flexible, expandable component. I'm curious as to whether those who have had to replace their main tanks have replicated the original directions for tank installation or have made adjustments which both provide a robust fit between the CM and the tank but nonetheless allow for some tank expansion. Fred A194 On Thursday, Jan 3, 2008, at 08:03 US/Pacific, Karl Heindl wrote: Fred, I agree, and the installation of almost any auxiliary tank is a dodgy accessory. Also the main tank is not exactly great, is it ? Some of them have developed cracks for no apparent reason, and if I recall, it is made of two sections which are welded together. They also tend to change shape. When I inspected mine a couple of years ago, I noticed that the back wall had buckled inwards, in spite of the enforcement ridges. Andy told me not to worry about it. To use the Livermore crash as an example of failing marine tanks is really pure speculation. In such a high impact crash I imagine that any FULL tank would fail, and that the resulting fire was merely incidental in the two fatalities. I considered the Europa longrange tank, but it has such an awkward shape for a trigear, making it difficult to secure, and it doesn't look any stronger than what I am using. Again, guesswork, only a real test with tanks full of water and dropped from a certain height would constitute a valid comparison. Some builders tell us about their solutions with aluminum tanks, but they don't tell us how the rest of us might acquire one and with the connection accessories. Maybe someone in the business, like Bud Yerly, can manufacture a carbon fibre solution, that is portable, and fits on the seat and the baggage compartment of any Europa. If it also fits other homebuilts, he could generate a nice extra income. It should not hold more than 30 liters, otherwise it is just too heavy to carry. The way tanks are secured is just as important as the tank itself. Also, when I use mine, I empty it as soon as there is enough room in the main tank, reducing the fire risk considerably on a (crash)landing. Trans-ocean pilots are in a totally different environment, and have to take a calculated risk. Remember Lindbergh ? He practically sat in the middle of a giant fuel tank, with zero forward visibility. Karl
.ExternalClass .EC_EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;} -> http://forums.matronics.c - List Contribution Web Site - _p; &nbs.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contr========= ===== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:38 PM PST US From: "Troy Maynor" Subject: Europa-List: Reamer Anyone? Fellow Europa Dudes and Dudettes, I am done with the 16.5 mm reamer that Kevin Klinefelter passed on to me. If the next person in need of it will send me an email I will gladly send it on. Not sure who the actual owner is when it has made it's rounds though. Thanks again Kevin. Troy Maynor N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic Left to finish: Paint,(some) interior,engine install, (some) wiring. Weaverville, NC USA Do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.