Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:40 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (craig bastin)
2. 02:16 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (G-IANI)
3. 02:25 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (G-IANI)
4. 02:52 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (craig bastin)
5. 03:05 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (Lance Sandford)
6. 05:58 AM - AW: auxillary fuel tank (UVTReith)
7. 07:32 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (David Joyce)
8. 04:44 PM - Re: AW: auxillary fuel tank (Graham Singleton)
9. 09:10 PM - Re: AW: auxillary fuel tank (Fred Klein)
Message 1
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| Subject: | auxillary fuel tank |
Not sure if this has been brought up before, but has anyone done wing
tank/tanks. Seems to me a tank of about 15 litres a side would fit ok, and
could be
plumbed in with the same bulb primer arrangement as the strap in tank and
use the dry break coupling found on most boats to plug the line in as you
put the wings
on. Also (correct me if i am wrong) would the tank and fuel not become part
of the wing dead weight and so not add to G loading weight for those who
like to fly at "Unusual Attitudes"
from time to time.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Duncan & Ami
McFadyean
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2008 7:30 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank
Fred,
I would not expect the standard tank to be bonded in rigidly.
It sits on a "shelf" on the forward side, is laterally restrained by a
saddle and contained by the 'box' around it. It is not likely that the
apparent bond between the glassed-in supports and tank would last very long
as fuel loads cause the tank to cyclically change shape.
It would be a fairly simple matter to debond any residual adhesion of the
tank to the supports, if you are worried about this.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Klein
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank
Karl,
Thank you for your thoughtful post and the several suggestions included
therein...I couldn't agree with you more. Yes, my mention of Livermore is
speculation, with "the resulting fire (being) merely incidental in the two
fatalities", witness Cliff and Mary Shaw's accident (low speed stall/spin)
but no fire.
As I have a mono, I intend to fit the standard aux. tank.
Your comments re: the main tank are spot on, and as time goes by,
hopefully we'll all learn more about how to minimize the stress-cracking
tendencies. I regret not looking closely at the issue when I was installing
my tank when those little bells were ringing in my mind vis a vis the rigid
bonding in of a flexible, expandable component.
I'm curious as to whether those who have had to replace their main tanks
have replicated the original directions for tank installation or have made
adjustments which both provide a robust fit between the CM and the tank but
nonetheless allow for some tank expansion.
Fred
A194
On Thursday, Jan 3, 2008, at 08:03 US/Pacific, Karl Heindl wrote:
Fred,
I agree, and the installation of almost any auxiliary tank is a dodgy
accessory. Also the main tank is not exactly great, is it ? Some of them
have developed cracks for no apparent reason, and if I recall, it is made of
two sections which are welded together. They also tend to change shape. When
I inspected mine a couple of years ago, I noticed that the back wall had
buckled inwards, in spite of the enforcement ridges. Andy told me not to
worry about it.
To use the Livermore crash as an example of failing marine tanks is
really pure speculation. In such a high impact crash I imagine that any FULL
tank would fail, and that the resulting fire was merely incidental in the
two fatalities.
I considered the Europa longrange tank, but it has such an awkward
shape for a trigear, making it difficult to secure, and it doesn't look any
stronger than what I am using. Again, guesswork, only a real test with tanks
full of water and dropped from a certain height would constitute a valid
comparison.
Some builders tell us about their solutions with aluminum tanks, but
they don't tell us how the rest of us might acquire one and with the
connection accessories.
Maybe someone in the business, like Bud Yerly, can manufacture a
carbon fibre solution, that is portable, and fits on the seat and the
baggage compartment of any Europa. If it also fits other homebuilts, he
could generate a nice extra income. It should not hold more than 30 liters,
otherwise it is just too heavy to carry.
The way tanks are secured is just as important as the tank itself.
Also, when I use mine, I empty it as soon as there is enough room in the
main tank, reducing the fire risk considerably on a (crash)landing.
Trans-ocean pilots are in a totally different environment, and have to
take a calculated risk. Remember Lindbergh ? He practically sat in the
middle of a giant fuel tank, with zero forward visibility.
Karl
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3:52 PM
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| Subject: | auxillary fuel tank |
Yes I believe one of the European builders did wink tanks. Can anyone
give more details
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | auxillary fuel tank |
David
I am a bit confused by your comment "the fuel pump must not draw fuel
from more than one tank at a time, which the standard Europa tank
plumbing doesn't meet".
The Europa 912XS 912S Engine Manual, Issue 6 page 6-3 and 914 Engine
Manual issue 4 Page 5-3 both give layouts with the fuel fed from the
selector valve. This only allows feed from one tank at a time.
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | auxillary fuel tank |
Ian
maybe he is thinking that as one tank siphons into the next, then you are in
fact drawing from two tanks at the same time
which i guess if you are being pedantic is correct. Other than that i dont
see either how it is possible to draw from more than one tank
at a time with the standard fuel selector. Does the andair selector have a
"BOTH" position?? (I think it does) i which case then it would be
possible
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of G-IANI
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2008 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank
David
I am a bit confused by your comment "the fuel pump must not draw fuel
from more than one tank at a time, which the standard Europa tank
plumbing doesn't meet".
The Europa 912XS 912S Engine Manual, Issue 6 page 6-3 and 914 Engine
Manual issue 4 Page 5-3 both give layouts with the fuel fed from the
selector valve. This only allows feed from one tank at a time.
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
3:52 PM
3:52 PM
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: auxillary fuel tank |
Craig
Dave McCandless in Perth W.A. Oz has done this. He has a 30 ltr tank in
each wing.
Unfortunately Dave has developed an intolerance to epoxy and his kit is
up for sale.
I did once have a sketch of his arrangement. If anybody is interested, I
may be able to find it in my too hard basket.
I did not proceed with it because I have wiring conduits through the
wing ready for closure. If I dont call a halt to new mods I will never
get to fly.
Lance Sandford in Oz
craig bastin wrote:
> Not sure if this has been brought up before, but has anyone done wing
> tank/tanks. Seems to me a tank of about 15 litres a side would fit ok,
> and could be
> plumbed in with the same bulb primer arrangement as the strap in tank
> and use the dry break coupling found on most boats to plug the line
> in as you put the wings
> on. Also (correct me if i am wrong) would the tank and fuel not become
> part of the wing dead weight and so not add to G loading weight for
> those who like to fly at "Unusual Attitudes"
> from time to time.
>
> craig
Message 6
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| Subject: | auxillary fuel tank |
Yes, you are correct. Walter Binder (Classic Monwheel - kit 149, first
take-off March 96) is using wing tanks. But his Europa is a SPECIAL ONE.
Walter installs engines into glider and has constructed and flown a lot of
gliders.The largest glider Antaris is his baby. He made also the test
flights
His Classic Monwheel is equipped with Aluminium fuel tanks, the outriggers
are retractable (using per side 12 volt accu drills), equipped with a tow
bar facility from a Piper and some other changes. He is very involved in
constructing Composite planes and he has built his Europa around his
business. He his towing customer gliders cross country wide, flies to
meetings etc. Meanwhile he has more than 900 hours on his Europa.
He bought the kit and changed it to his requirements, but it will be wasted
time to ask him for details, as he made it out of experience.
We should prefer to take the kit as it is and not to argue about a lot of
things, when we have just started building it. I know a lot of people, who
started to change things (they thought just small ones) and came up in the
end with some 100 hours more.
It is always easy to say: we could do this and that, but we are not able to
do it.
By the way, some ideas how to install a parachute system (rescue)?
I wish the Europa Family a healthy 2008 with a lot of fun in building and
flying.
Best regards,
Bruno Reith / Europa Aircraft Germany
_____
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von G-IANI
Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Januar 2008 11:16
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank
Yes I believe one of the European builders did wink tanks. Can anyone give
more details
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: auxillary fuel tank |
Ian, I was referring here to the LongRanger tank fitted to Europa
instructions, which when in use drains fuel at the same time from theLR &
main tanks. The standard fit for the inbuilt plane tank of course has no
such problems, unless you make the mistake of running from full with the
selector on reserve! (which I guess wouldn't foul the VLA regs anyway).
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank
>
> David
>
> I am a bit confused by your comment "the fuel pump must not draw fuel
> from more than one tank at a time, which the standard Europa tank
> plumbing doesn't meet".
>
> The Europa 912XS 912S Engine Manual, Issue 6 page 6-3 and 914 Engine
> Manual issue 4 Page 5-3 both give layouts with the fuel fed from the
> selector valve. This only allows feed from one tank at a time.
>
> Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
> Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
> e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
> or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: auxillary fuel tank |
Bruno
I remember meeting Walter briefly at Kirkbymoorside when he collected
his kit. He wasn't very familiar with English and my german is no better
but he had immense confidence at the time. I once saw the glider he
built for Hans Werner Grosse at Luebeck just after it took off, 30 meter
wingspan wasn't it? The wings were amazing, tips in flight must have
been at least a meter above the fuselage in a lovely smooth curve.
It's sad that Walter doesn't talk to us. He fitted the first extended
tailwheel years before the factory did it. His windsceen was much deeper
than ours which gives better visibility and he still cruised at 140kts
on an 80hp 912. He even towed gliders with it.
Pity he never worked for Europa factory! What an airplane we would have
had then!
Graham
UVTReith wrote:
> Yes, you are correct. Walter Binder (Classic Monwheel - kit 149, first
> take-off March 96) is using wing tanks. But his Europa is a SPECIAL ONE.
>
> Walter installs engines into glider and has constructed and flown a lot
> of gliders.The largest glider Antaris is his baby. He made also the test
> flights
> 5
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: auxillary fuel tank |
On Friday, Jan 4, 2008, at 16:41 US/Pacific, Graham Singleton wrote:
> I remember meeting Walter briefly at Kirkbymoorside...
> His windsceen was much deeper than ours which gives better visibility
> and he still cruised at 140kts on an 80hp 912.
Graham,
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "deeper"...?
Thanks,
Fred
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