---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/04/08: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:40 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (craig bastin) 2. 02:16 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (G-IANI) 3. 02:25 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (G-IANI) 4. 02:52 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (craig bastin) 5. 03:05 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (Lance Sandford) 6. 05:58 AM - AW: auxillary fuel tank (UVTReith) 7. 07:32 AM - Re: auxillary fuel tank (David Joyce) 8. 04:44 PM - Re: AW: auxillary fuel tank (Graham Singleton) 9. 09:10 PM - Re: AW: auxillary fuel tank (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:02 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Not sure if this has been brought up before, but has anyone done wing tank/tanks. Seems to me a tank of about 15 litres a side would fit ok, and could be plumbed in with the same bulb primer arrangement as the strap in tank and use the dry break coupling found on most boats to plug the line in as you put the wings on. Also (correct me if i am wrong) would the tank and fuel not become part of the wing dead weight and so not add to G loading weight for those who like to fly at "Unusual Attitudes" from time to time. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Duncan & Ami McFadyean Sent: Friday, 4 January 2008 7:30 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Fred, I would not expect the standard tank to be bonded in rigidly. It sits on a "shelf" on the forward side, is laterally restrained by a saddle and contained by the 'box' around it. It is not likely that the apparent bond between the glassed-in supports and tank would last very long as fuel loads cause the tank to cyclically change shape. It would be a fairly simple matter to debond any residual adhesion of the tank to the supports, if you are worried about this. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Karl, Thank you for your thoughtful post and the several suggestions included therein...I couldn't agree with you more. Yes, my mention of Livermore is speculation, with "the resulting fire (being) merely incidental in the two fatalities", witness Cliff and Mary Shaw's accident (low speed stall/spin) but no fire. As I have a mono, I intend to fit the standard aux. tank. Your comments re: the main tank are spot on, and as time goes by, hopefully we'll all learn more about how to minimize the stress-cracking tendencies. I regret not looking closely at the issue when I was installing my tank when those little bells were ringing in my mind vis a vis the rigid bonding in of a flexible, expandable component. I'm curious as to whether those who have had to replace their main tanks have replicated the original directions for tank installation or have made adjustments which both provide a robust fit between the CM and the tank but nonetheless allow for some tank expansion. Fred A194 On Thursday, Jan 3, 2008, at 08:03 US/Pacific, Karl Heindl wrote: Fred, I agree, and the installation of almost any auxiliary tank is a dodgy accessory. Also the main tank is not exactly great, is it ? Some of them have developed cracks for no apparent reason, and if I recall, it is made of two sections which are welded together. They also tend to change shape. When I inspected mine a couple of years ago, I noticed that the back wall had buckled inwards, in spite of the enforcement ridges. Andy told me not to worry about it. To use the Livermore crash as an example of failing marine tanks is really pure speculation. In such a high impact crash I imagine that any FULL tank would fail, and that the resulting fire was merely incidental in the two fatalities. I considered the Europa longrange tank, but it has such an awkward shape for a trigear, making it difficult to secure, and it doesn't look any stronger than what I am using. Again, guesswork, only a real test with tanks full of water and dropped from a certain height would constitute a valid comparison. Some builders tell us about their solutions with aluminum tanks, but they don't tell us how the rest of us might acquire one and with the connection accessories. Maybe someone in the business, like Bud Yerly, can manufacture a carbon fibre solution, that is portable, and fits on the seat and the baggage compartment of any Europa. If it also fits other homebuilts, he could generate a nice extra income. It should not hold more than 30 liters, otherwise it is just too heavy to carry. The way tanks are secured is just as important as the tank itself. Also, when I use mine, I empty it as soon as there is enough room in the main tank, reducing the fire risk considerably on a (crash)landing. Trans-ocean pilots are in a totally different environment, and have to take a calculated risk. Remember Lindbergh ? He practically sat in the middle of a giant fuel tank, with zero forward visibility. Karl
.ExternalClass .EC_EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;} -> http://forums.matronics.c - List Contribution Web Site - _p; &nbs.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contr============== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List the Web http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ========== 3:52 PM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:19 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Yes I believe one of the European builders did wink tanks. Can anyone give more details Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:43 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank David I am a bit confused by your comment "the fuel pump must not draw fuel from more than one tank at a time, which the standard Europa tank plumbing doesn't meet". The Europa 912XS 912S Engine Manual, Issue 6 page 6-3 and 914 Engine Manual issue 4 Page 5-3 both give layouts with the fuel fed from the selector valve. This only allows feed from one tank at a time. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:52:50 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Ian maybe he is thinking that as one tank siphons into the next, then you are in fact drawing from two tanks at the same time which i guess if you are being pedantic is correct. Other than that i dont see either how it is possible to draw from more than one tank at a time with the standard fuel selector. Does the andair selector have a "BOTH" position?? (I think it does) i which case then it would be possible craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of G-IANI Sent: Friday, 4 January 2008 8:26 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank David I am a bit confused by your comment "the fuel pump must not draw fuel from more than one tank at a time, which the standard Europa tank plumbing doesn't meet". The Europa 912XS 912S Engine Manual, Issue 6 page 6-3 and 914 Engine Manual issue 4 Page 5-3 both give layouts with the fuel fed from the selector valve. This only allows feed from one tank at a time. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com 3:52 PM 3:52 PM ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:00 AM PST US From: Lance Sandford Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Craig Dave McCandless in Perth W.A. Oz has done this. He has a 30 ltr tank in each wing. Unfortunately Dave has developed an intolerance to epoxy and his kit is up for sale. I did once have a sketch of his arrangement. If anybody is interested, I may be able to find it in my too hard basket. I did not proceed with it because I have wiring conduits through the wing ready for closure. If I dont call a halt to new mods I will never get to fly. Lance Sandford in Oz craig bastin wrote: > Not sure if this has been brought up before, but has anyone done wing > tank/tanks. Seems to me a tank of about 15 litres a side would fit ok, > and could be > plumbed in with the same bulb primer arrangement as the strap in tank > and use the dry break coupling found on most boats to plug the line > in as you put the wings > on. Also (correct me if i am wrong) would the tank and fuel not become > part of the wing dead weight and so not add to G loading weight for > those who like to fly at "Unusual Attitudes" > from time to time. > > craig ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:41 AM PST US From: "UVTReith" Subject: AW: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Yes, you are correct. Walter Binder (Classic Monwheel - kit 149, first take-off March 96) is using wing tanks. But his Europa is a SPECIAL ONE. Walter installs engines into glider and has constructed and flown a lot of gliders.The largest glider Antaris is his baby. He made also the test flights His Classic Monwheel is equipped with Aluminium fuel tanks, the outriggers are retractable (using per side 12 volt accu drills), equipped with a tow bar facility from a Piper and some other changes. He is very involved in constructing Composite planes and he has built his Europa around his business. He his towing customer gliders cross country wide, flies to meetings etc. Meanwhile he has more than 900 hours on his Europa. He bought the kit and changed it to his requirements, but it will be wasted time to ask him for details, as he made it out of experience. We should prefer to take the kit as it is and not to argue about a lot of things, when we have just started building it. I know a lot of people, who started to change things (they thought just small ones) and came up in the end with some 100 hours more. It is always easy to say: we could do this and that, but we are not able to do it. By the way, some ideas how to install a parachute system (rescue)? I wish the Europa Family a healthy 2008 with a lot of fun in building and flying. Best regards, Bruno Reith / Europa Aircraft Germany _____ Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von G-IANI Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Januar 2008 11:16 An: europa-list@matronics.com Betreff: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Yes I believe one of the European builders did wink tanks. Can anyone give more details Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:53 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Ian, I was referring here to the LongRanger tank fitted to Europa instructions, which when in use drains fuel at the same time from theLR & main tanks. The standard fit for the inbuilt plane tank of course has no such problems, unless you make the mistake of running from full with the selector on reserve! (which I guess wouldn't foul the VLA regs anyway). Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "G-IANI" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 10:26 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank > > David > > I am a bit confused by your comment "the fuel pump must not draw fuel > from more than one tank at a time, which the standard Europa tank > plumbing doesn't meet". > > The Europa 912XS 912S Engine Manual, Issue 6 page 6-3 and 914 Engine > Manual issue 4 Page 5-3 both give layouts with the fuel fed from the > selector valve. This only allows feed from one tank at a time. > > Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear > Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) > e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk > or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:48 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank Bruno I remember meeting Walter briefly at Kirkbymoorside when he collected his kit. He wasn't very familiar with English and my german is no better but he had immense confidence at the time. I once saw the glider he built for Hans Werner Grosse at Luebeck just after it took off, 30 meter wingspan wasn't it? The wings were amazing, tips in flight must have been at least a meter above the fuselage in a lovely smooth curve. It's sad that Walter doesn't talk to us. He fitted the first extended tailwheel years before the factory did it. His windsceen was much deeper than ours which gives better visibility and he still cruised at 140kts on an 80hp 912. He even towed gliders with it. Pity he never worked for Europa factory! What an airplane we would have had then! Graham UVTReith wrote: > Yes, you are correct. Walter Binder (Classic Monwheel - kit 149, first > take-off March 96) is using wing tanks. But his Europa is a SPECIAL ONE. > > Walter installs engines into glider and has constructed and flown a lot > of gliders.The largest glider Antaris is his baby. He made also the test > flights > 5 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: auxillary fuel tank From: Fred Klein On Friday, Jan 4, 2008, at 16:41 US/Pacific, Graham Singleton wrote: > I remember meeting Walter briefly at Kirkbymoorside... > His windsceen was much deeper than ours which gives better visibility > and he still cruised at 140kts on an 80hp 912. Graham, Could you elaborate on what you mean by "deeper"...? Thanks, Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.