---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/14/08: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:37 AM - Re: Rotax 912/914 (craig bastin) 2. 04:09 AM - Re: Rotax 912/914 (Gert Dalgaard) 3. 04:16 AM - Re: Rotax 912/914 (Simon Smith) 4. 05:47 AM - Rotax 912 electronic noise (Richard Lamprey) 5. 09:42 AM - Re: Rotax 912 electronic noise (Mike Gregory) 6. 10:52 AM - Re: Rotax 912/914 (jason Parker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:24 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 912/914 I wonder if anyone has switched pistons or thrown a head spacer in a 912s to reduce the compression and then turbo charged it. With the extra capacity if it was done correctly it should be good for about 130hp or so. Could be a good way to go craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Simon Smith Sent: Sunday, 13 January 2008 7:14 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 912/914 Not Correct! From the Rotax aircraft website at www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com Both the 912 and the 914 are 1211cc and 9:1 ratio. The 912S is different at 1352cc and 10.5:1 All three use the same crankshaft and connecting rods (they are a single unit and cannot be separated) p/n 888164. The 912 and 914 used 79.5mm dia piston p/n 996549 and the 912S uses 84mm p/n 88838. there is also a difference in the piston pins and rings. Some earlier 912 and 914 engines use crank p/n 996583. cheers Simon On 12 Jan 2008, at 16:25, rlborger wrote: Curtis & other Europaphiles, Oops, hit the wrong button on that previous transmission. The main difference between the 912 and 914 are different compression ratios due to the different pistons and (I believe) connecting rods. The three engines 912, 912S and 914 all have different compression ratios. Of course, the exhaust systems are quite different due to the presence of the turbo. There are also differences in the lube system to support the special lubrication needs of the turbo. There may be other differences. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Jan 12, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Curtis Jaussi wrote: Does anyone understand the real differences between the Rotax 912ul and the 914? As far as I can determine, they are the same engine except for the turbo. The displacement and the pistons seem to be the same. is the 914 beefed up in some way to take the extra strain from the turbo? Has anyone heard of an after market turbo for the 912? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Europa-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution 8:23 PM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:02 AM PST US From: Gert Dalgaard Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 912/914 - what do we need 130 hp for ?? :-) Regards Gert Mono/914/app. 500 hours OY-GDS Den 14/01/2008 kl. 12.41 skrev craig bastin: > I wonder if anyone has switched pistons or thrown a head spacer in a > 912s to reduce the compression and then turbo charged it. With the > extra > capacity if it was done correctly it should be good for about 130hp > or so. Could be a good way to go > > craig ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:11 AM PST US From: Simon Smith Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 912/914 Craig, All three engines use the same crank and con rods. The crank is not a solid forging but is made up from various components in a special press (hence the rods cannot be changed). I have seen the result of a 914 that took off with the TCU switched off and the crank was twisted. I would suggest that a 912s with a turbo might not provide sufficient margin of safety. cheers Simon On 14 Jan 2008, at 11:41, craig bastin wrote: > I wonder if anyone has switched pistons or thrown a head spacer in a > 912s to reduce the compression and then turbo charged it. With the > extra > capacity if it was done correctly it should be good for about 130hp > or so. Could be a good way to go > > craig > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > ]On Behalf Of Simon Smith > Sent: Sunday, 13 January 2008 7:14 AM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 912/914 > > Not Correct! > > From the Rotax aircraft website at www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com > Both the 912 and the 914 are 1211cc and 9:1 ratio. The 912S is > different at 1352cc and 10.5:1 > > All three use the same crankshaft and connecting rods (they are a > single unit and cannot be separated) p/n 888164. The 912 and 914 > used 79.5mm dia piston p/n 996549 and the 912S uses 84mm p/n 88838. > there is also a difference in the piston pins and rings. Some > earlier 912 and 914 engines use crank p/n 996583. > > cheers > > Simon > > On 12 Jan 2008, at 16:25, rlborger wrote: > >> Curtis & other Europaphiles, >> >> Oops, hit the wrong button on that previous transmission. >> >> The main difference between the 912 and 914 are different >> compression ratios due to the different pistons and (I believe) >> connecting rods. The three engines 912, 912S and 914 all have >> different compression ratios. >> >> Of course, the exhaust systems are quite different due to the >> presence of the turbo. >> >> There are also differences in the lube system to support the >> special lubrication needs of the turbo. >> >> There may be other differences. >> >> Good building and great flying, >> Bob Borger >> Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S >> http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL >> (90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch >> system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod >> in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, >> tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & >> Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, >> except for testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). >> Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for >> testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 >> Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. >> Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 >> interior kit has arrived and is being installed. >> 3705 Lynchburg Dr. >> Corinth, TX 76208 >> Home: 940-497-2123 >> Cel: 817-992-1117 >> On Jan 12, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Curtis Jaussi wrote: >> >>> Does anyone understand the real differences between the Rotax >>> 912ul and the 914? As far as I can determine, they are the same >>> engine except for the turbo. The displacement and the pistons >>> seem to be the same. is the 914 beefed up in some way to take the >>> extra strain from the turbo? Has anyone heard of an after market >>> turbo for the 912? >> >> >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref > ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// > www.matronics.com/c > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:48 AM PST US From: "Richard Lamprey" Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 912 electronic noise Can anyone shed light on an strange noise that emanates from my engine on startup? The engine is a basic 912UL, with about 520 hours on it. The noise is an electronic note, almost flutelike, around G in pitch. After startup, and idle at about 2200 RPM, you hear this noise through the firewall, loud enough for a passenger to comment. With increasing RPM, it doesn't increase much in pitch, just slightly, and therefore I think it must somehow be related to the alternator output, or possible the voltage regulator (Ducati); and not related to any noisy bearings in anything. You cannot detect this noise if you stand close to the running engine, with the cowling off. It seems that the firewall acts as a resonating surface to amplify it to inside the cockpit. The noise goes for about 5 minutes during warm-up, then quite suddenly it completely disappears, usually at about the time of taxying out. All through this startup, the engine runs smoothly, and temperatures and pressures behave normally. The big spike-protecting capacitor charges up, and after a minute or two from startup, the voltmeter shows a switch from 12 volt (not charging) to 14 volt (charging), All quite normal, and seemingly unrelated to the noise. This noise didn't happen when the engine was new. It began after about 300 hours of engine time. It is particularly noticeable after sometime without engine operation, say 2 weeks or longer. Any ideas on this mystery noise gratefully received! Richard Lamprey Europa Classic, 5Y-LRY Nairobi, Kenya ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:57 AM PST US From: "Mike Gregory" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 912 electronic noise Richard, Anything related to the alternator output would vary with the RPM, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Ducati regulator was doing something mysterious. A vibration within the regulator attached to the firewall would allow the firewall to act as a sounding board as you suggest. If it can be done safely, you might be able to see if the regulator is involved by getting someone to press their hand on it while the engine is running. If this damps the vibration (or the hand can feel the buzz) then this could confirm it. Alternatively, you might temporarily detach the regulator from the firewall (but make sure it is still properly grounded) and see if the resonance is still there. Ducati regulators are not known for their longevity, especially if they get hot in service (go on, tell us it's hot in Kenya!). Many regulators had been replaced after 300 hours or less. I am not sure how normal is your delay of a minute or two before the voltage rises from 12 to 14. The regulator ought to provide full charging voltage immediately the alternator is up to speed, unless there is a discharged battery drawing a heavy current that drags the voltage down; even then, I would expect the voltage to rise slowly as the battery charges rather than jump suddenly, assuming you are not switching any major electrical loads at the time. I defer to Gilles Thesee regarding the internal workings of the regulator and what might cause it to act in this way, if indeed it is the culprit. Mike Gregory _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Lamprey Sent: 15 January 2008 00:44 Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 912 electronic noise Can anyone shed light on an strange noise that emanates from my engine on startup? The engine is a basic 912UL, with about 520 hours on it. The noise is an electronic note, almost flutelike, around G in pitch. After startup, and idle at about 2200 RPM, you hear this noise through the firewall, loud enough for a passenger to comment. With increasing RPM, it doesn't increase much in pitch, just slightly, and therefore I think it must somehow be related to the alternator output, or possible the voltage regulator (Ducati); and not related to any noisy bearings in anything. You cannot detect this noise if you stand close to the running engine, with the cowling off. It seems that the firewall acts as a resonating surface to amplify it to inside the cockpit. The noise goes for about 5 minutes during warm-up, then quite suddenly it completely disappears, usually at about the time of taxying out. All through this startup, the engine runs smoothly, and temperatures and pressures behave normally. The big spike-protecting capacitor charges up, and after a minute or two from startup, the voltmeter shows a switch from 12 volt (not charging) to 14 volt (charging), All quite normal, and seemingly unrelated to the noise. This noise didn't happen when the engine was new. It began after about 300 hours of engine time. It is particularly noticeable after sometime without engine operation, say 2 weeks or longer. Any ideas on this mystery noise gratefully received! Richard Lamprey Europa Classic, 5Y-LRY Nairobi, Kenya ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:55 AM PST US From: jason Parker Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 912/914 Craig, No spacers are needed. Simply replace the pistons with lower compression pistons. The problem with the 912s is that the cylinder walls are very thin. I don't know when you will exceed the designs safety factor and crack jugs. See my line of fuel injected engines at www.experimentalfuelinjection.com We do fuel injection the proper way. I sell the following kits as well To fuel inject a rotax 912 4500 with wideband o2 sensor and 55 amp alt To make a 912 into a fuel injected 914 9000USD Give me a call with any questions 661 428-1850 craig bastin wrote: I wonder if anyone has switched pistons or thrown a head spacer in a 912s to reduce the compression and then turbo charged it. With the extra capacity if it was done correctly it should be good for about 130hp or so. Could be a good way to go craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Simon Smith Sent: Sunday, 13 January 2008 7:14 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 912/914 Not Correct! From the Rotax aircraft website at www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com Both the 912 and the 914 are 1211cc and 9:1 ratio. The 912S is different at 1352cc and 10.5:1 All three use the same crankshaft and connecting rods (they are a single unit and cannot be separated) p/n 888164. The 912 and 914 used 79.5mm dia piston p/n 996549 and the 912S uses 84mm p/n 88838. there is also a difference in the piston pins and rings. Some earlier 912 and 914 engines use crank p/n 996583. cheers Simon On 12 Jan 2008, at 16:25, rlborger wrote: Curtis & other Europaphiles, Oops, hit the wrong button on that previous transmission. The main difference between the 912 and 914 are different compression ratios due to the different pistons and (I believe) connecting rods. The three engines 912, 912S and 914 all have different compression ratios. Of course, the exhaust systems are quite different due to the presence of the turbo. There are also differences in the lube system to support the special lubrication needs of the turbo. There may be other differences. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Jan 12, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Curtis Jaussi wrote: Does anyone understand the real differences between the Rotax 912ul and the 914? As far as I can determine, they are the same engine except for the turbo. The displacement and the pistons seem to be the same. is the 914 beefed up in some way to take the extra strain from the turbo? Has anyone heard of an after market turbo for the 912? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.