---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/31/08: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:08 AM - Don Dykins book (Remi Guerner) 2. 03:13 AM - Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump (craig bastin) 3. 03:56 AM - Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump (Robert C Harrison) 4. 07:01 AM - Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump (rampil) 5. 07:26 AM - Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump (david miller) 6. 09:30 AM - Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump (Jeff B) 7. 03:22 PM - Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump (Keith Hickling) 8. 04:35 PM - Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump (europa flugzeug fabrik) 9. 06:50 PM - Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump (Steve Hagar) 10. 07:48 PM - Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump (Roger Lowe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:29 AM PST US From: "Remi Guerner" Subject: Europa-List: Don Dykins book Mike Gregory wrote: "Yes, the airspeed axis on page 15 Figure 1 is labelled "VEASKTS", standing for Equivalent Airspeed in knots ..........I do not believe Don Dykins is wrong, and I do not agree that it is nonsense to talk about performance in terms of indicated airspeed. " Mike, I fully understand that. But again when talking about cruise performance, what the builder owner or pilot of the Europa is interested in is True Air Speed, not Indicated Airspeed. This is why I said this is nonsense. Fortunately I did not pay the 5 British Pounds for the book, as I just borrow it! Best regards Remi ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:29 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump I have used digital scales with great success also, but ran out of Ampreg and so switched to West Systems and it came with ratio pumps that replace the caps on the bottles. Personally I have found the two separate pumps much faster and easier than using the scales, but i am past the really big layups and for big lots the pumps may be a pain, you will need the scales or balance for the araldite 420, just dont forget the different ratio required. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Roger Lowe Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2008 12:53 PM Subject: Europa-List: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump Hi, I've purchased a partially complete Europa a little over a year ago and had to put it storage until my garage/workshop was re-vamped in order to build the kit. It is now to a point to where I can start moving my kit into it and start working on it. I have question about the different devices used to measure the epoxy and wondering what most builders have done in the past. The cheapest of course is to make the Europa mechanical balance which should be no problem (is it quick and easy to use during a layup?) but I'm leaning towards either a Ohaus / Sartorius digital scale with a resolution of 0.01gm (do I need that much precision or can I get away with a lower cost 0.1gm unit?) OR a ratio pump like a Glenmarc Portionator MBT-JR from A/S which is the most expensive of the all the options (is it worth the cost for ease of use?). I live in Canada so I will be using Aeropoxy resin (100:27 by weight or 3 to 1 by volume). I would appreciable any feedback/experience that you have that would help me make up my mind! Thanks, Roger Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org 9:09 AM 9:09 AM ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:41 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump Hi! Roger. I exclusively used a Ohaus digital scale. For me it was easy since I decided how much of combined epoxy I wished to make at one mix (Not more than say approx. 25gm because of exotherm likleyhood). Zero the unit with my mixing cup and mixing stick on the bed. Carefully pour say 5gm of hardener in, follow by pouring in epoxy to make up to 25gm this way, so long as you know your 5X table, is foolproof. For subsequent mixes following immediately on I used the same mixer cup and stick but re-set the scale before starting each mix and be sure to re-mix any dregs of the original mix with the new mix. So you are using as clean a new mix every time. I'm quite sure someone is going to tell me I was incorrect by method but there you have it. Have fun Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG (Europa Kit 337 originally 3300 Jabiru now with Rotax 914 and intercooler 600 hours) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lowe Sent: 31 January 2008 02:53 Subject: Europa-List: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump Hi, I've purchased a partially complete Europa a little over a year ago and had to put it storage until my garage/workshop was re-vamped in order to build the kit. It is now to a point to where I can start moving my kit into it and start working on it. I have question about the different devices used to measure the epoxy and wondering what most builders have done in the past. The cheapest of course is to make the Europa mechanical balance which should be no problem (is it quick and easy to use during a layup?) but I'm leaning towards either a Ohaus / Sartorius digital scale with a resolution of 0.01gm (do I need that much precision or can I get away with a lower cost 0.1gm unit?) OR a ratio pump like a Glenmarc Portionator MBT-JR from A/S which is the most expensive of the all the options (is it worth the cost for ease of use?). I live in Canada so I will be using Aeropoxy resin (100:27 by weight or 3 to 1 by volume). I would appreciable any feedback/experience that you have that would help me make up my mind! Thanks, Roger ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:04 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump From: "rampil" Tenth of a gram is more than adequate for mixing resin. Most batches for layups will be between 30g and 100g, mixed. More than that may exotherm in the cup. A scale that gives you 0.5% is way better than necessary since 5% is probably just fine. A scale with 0.01 gram resolution is a fragile lab instrument, not a working shop instrument useful for production work. It would waver with air breezes. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161549#161549 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:57 AM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump Hi Roger, I'm located in London, Ont, and have a completely refurbished epoxy pump, that was used by Chris Staines in his build, I would be happy to sell it for about the same price as a scale. I used a scale for my build,and found it to be quick and easy to use. The cheapest place to find an electronic scale is in a drug paraphernalia store! A few years ago I spoke to the Aeropoxy reps at Oshkosh, they were clearly amused by anyone bothering to measure to the nearest tenth of a gram - off the record they indicated that the tolerance levels for a proper cure are quite high. I tended to end up a little short of hardener in each batch, their suggestion was to just short a bit on the hardener, on each mix. Dave A061 519-666-0480 On 30-Jan-08, at 9:53 PM, Roger Lowe wrote: > > Hi, I've purchased a partially complete Europa a little over a year > ago and had to put it storage until my garage/workshop was re- > vamped in order to build the kit. It is now to a point to where I > can start moving my kit into it and start working on it. > > I have question about the different devices used to measure the > epoxy and wondering what most builders have done in the past. The > cheapest of course is to make the Europa mechanical balance which > should be no problem (is it quick and easy to use during a layup?) > but I'm leaning towards either a Ohaus / Sartorius digital scale > with a resolution of 0.01gm (do I need that much precision or can I > get away with a lower cost 0.1gm unit?) OR a ratio pump like a > Glenmarc Portionator MBT-JR from A/S which is the most expensive of > the all the options (is it worth the cost for ease of use?). > > I live in Canada so I will be using Aeropoxy resin (100:27 by > weight or 3 to 1 by volume). > > I would appreciable any feedback/experience that you have that > would help me make up my mind! > > Thanks, Roger > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:59 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump Roger, Guess I'm the odd man out, but I used the pump and loved the ease and speed. Only down side I found was having to clean it up every few months. 15 minute job. Well worth it, in my opinion, for the convenience of pulling the handle and you're done... BTW, I got the pump with the kit, so cost was not a factor for me... Jeff - Baby Blue 363 hrs Roger Lowe wrote: > > Hi, I've purchased a partially complete Europa a little over a year ago and had to put it storage until my garage/workshop was re-vamped in order to build the kit. It is now to a point to where I can start moving my kit into it and start working on it. > > I have question about the different devices used to measure the epoxy and wondering what most builders have done in the past. The cheapest of course is to make the Europa mechanical balance which should be no problem (is it quick and easy to use during a layup?) but I'm leaning towards either a Ohaus / Sartorius digital scale with a resolution of 0.01gm (do I need that much precision or can I get away with a lower cost 0.1gm unit?) OR a ratio pump like a Glenmarc Portionator MBT-JR from A/S which is the most expensive of the all the options (is it worth the cost for ease of use?). > > I live in Canada so I will be using Aeropoxy resin (100:27 by weight or 3 to 1 by volume). > > I would appreciable any feedback/experience that you have that would help me make up my mind! > > Thanks, Roger > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:44 PM PST US From: Keith Hickling Subject: Re: Europa-List: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump Ira wrote: A scale that gives you 0.5% is way better than necessary since 5% is probably just fine. Favid Miller wrote: the Aeropoxy reps at Oshkosh, they were clearly amused by anyone bothering to measure to the nearest tenth of a gram - off the record they indicated that the tolerance levels for a proper cure are quite high. I don't know who is correct, but Martin Armstrong, technical director of SP Systems (Ampreg) told me, as stated in the data sheets, that 2% is the maximum permissable error in mixing resin and hardener - any greater error results in measurable and significant reductions in strength. He was very concerned that some people get a bit "gung ho" about it. And 2% is only 0.1 gram of hardener in a 5g / 20 g mix. And a similar error in the opposite direction neasuring the resin would result in a 4% total error. Keith Hickling, New Zealand. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:16 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" One thing about "strength" verses mix accuracy is the current Europa design does not have us building many (or any?) strength-critical components. Fred F. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161693#161693 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:03 PM PST US From: "Steve Hagar" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump I have been using a standard triple beam balance for years. Very mechanical and reliable, Ohaus makes a nice one with taring capability. Just like they used in high school science class. Or by the stoners in the Air Force barracks. This was the 70's Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ > [Original Message] > From: Roger Lowe > To: > Date: 1/30/2008 8:24:24 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump > > > Hi, I've purchased a partially complete Europa a little over a year ago and had to put it storage until my garage/workshop was re-vamped in order to build the kit. It is now to a point to where I can start moving my kit into it and start working on it. > > I have question about the different devices used to measure the epoxy and wondering what most builders have done in the past. The cheapest of course is to make the Europa mechanical balance which should be no problem (is it quick and easy to use during a layup?) but I'm leaning towards either a Ohaus / Sartorius digital scale with a resolution of 0.01gm (do I need that much precision or can I get away with a lower cost 0.1gm unit?) OR a ratio pump like a Glenmarc Portionator MBT-JR from A/S which is the most expensive of the all the options (is it worth the cost for ease of use?). > > I live in Canada so I will be using Aeropoxy resin (100:27 by weight or 3 to 1 by volume). > > I would appreciable any feedback/experience that you have that would help me make up my mind! > > Thanks, Roger > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:21 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Epoxy Measuring - Balances vs Digital Scale vs Ratio Pump From: "Roger Lowe" Everyone, Thanks for the overwhelming response to my query. From the response the majority of you have used or are using a digital scale, so I will most likely go that route. I really appreciate the extra time and effort for the responses you gave as to the use of each apparatus and especially the digital scale. Looks like I don't have to spend as much money as I thought. Very very helpful! On a final note, I've sort of been lurking in the background in this user group for a while now, trying to learn all I can before I take the first stab at making the "wheel chock", I have to say that I'm always amazed at the wealth of knowledge and experience that exists here. Much better than a text book! Thanks again. Roger A252 Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.