---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/15/08: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:43 AM - Fuel System - What should I add? (flyingphil2) 2. 06:34 AM - Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (rampil) 3. 07:25 AM - Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (Rich & Sandy Schultz) 4. 08:48 AM - Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (flyingphil2) 5. 09:07 AM - Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (David Joyce) 6. 09:23 AM - Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (david miller) 7. 10:41 AM - Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (rampil) 8. 12:08 PM - Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (Greg Fuchs (FB)) 9. 01:44 PM - Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (david miller) 10. 03:15 PM - Re: Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (Fred Klein) 11. 04:13 PM - Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (craig bastin) 12. 05:06 PM - Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (rampil) 13. 05:24 PM - Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (Kevin Klinefelter) 14. 06:38 PM - Re: Drawings or pictures of Ourtigger Assembly (Robert Borger) 15. 07:07 PM - Re: Re: Fuel System - What should I add? (Paul McAllister) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:03 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fuel System - What should I add? From: "flyingphil2" Hi, I'm moving on with my build and am now thinking about the fuel system. The tank and cockpit module are still out and so I have a blank canvas with regards to what I can do. I note that various mods are available for this namely: Mod 33 (Water Drain Valves), Mod 49 (Fuel Filter mod) and Mod 60 (Electric contents gauge). >From that list, Mod 49 sounds like a good idea as does Mod 33. What do people think about Mod 60?? I'm favouring the 'keep it simple' approach on this build and would think that the sight gauge is a nice simple idea. I've had a look at some previous comments on all this and it seems that maybe it isn't. Anyway, what fuel system mods do people think are necessary and why? Thanks, Phil Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:48 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel System - What should I add? From: "rampil" Phil, You do not mention where you are. Are you restricted to PFA approval? -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164188#164188 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:14 AM PST US From: "Rich & Sandy Schultz" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel System - What should I add? Phil, Sight gauge is a great quick look item during your walk around. I "calibrated" mine with ty-wraps every 4 gallons. In flight you can still get around to see it. I did place mine between the seats on the front side of the back support. I HIGHLY recommend a fuel flow sensor Grand rapids, Flowscan 450... Some thing that is accurate. I use the flowscan 450 with my 914 and with the flow and return sensor I am accurate to just about the last drop out of the tank. There is a comm. Line available with most every flow sensor to take GPS data and give you estimated gallons used , remaining and time to empty.. All much more useful that F / 3/4 / 1/2 and empty. I ran out of fuel once in a rented 172 with a stuck float and badly setup engine and prop combination.... Flow sensors are the way to go with a sight gauge as a quick look during your preflight and a cross check during flight. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flyingphil2 Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 7:39 AM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel System - What should I add? Hi, I'm moving on with my build and am now thinking about the fuel system. The tank and cockpit module are still out and so I have a blank canvas with regards to what I can do. I note that various mods are available for this namely: Mod 33 (Water Drain Valves), Mod 49 (Fuel Filter mod) and Mod 60 (Electric contents gauge). >From that list, Mod 49 sounds like a good idea as does Mod 33. What do people think about Mod 60?? I'm favouring the 'keep it simple' approach on this build and would think that the sight gauge is a nice simple idea. I've had a look at some previous comments on all this and it seems that maybe it isn't. Anyway, what fuel system mods do people think are necessary and why? Thanks, Phil Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:56 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel System - What should I add? From: "flyingphil2" Hi, Sorry, yes, I'm in the UK and will be operating under PFA (now LAA) rules. Phil Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:53 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel System - What should I add? Phil, I would scrap the supplied filters and install an Andair minigascolator under the luggage bay with a water drain in the bottom of it with access thru a small flap beneath the plane. Also like Rich, strongly recommend a fuel flow system if you can afford it. Only go for one with Floscan transducer/s, such as JPI Fuel Scan 450. You then know precisely how much fuel you have at any one time and can also accurately predict how far you can travel at any one speed. If under LAA (ex PFA) jurisdiction you need to keep the sight gauge in some form as a back up, but the rest you can forget. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "flyingphil2" Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel System - What should I add? > > Hi, > > I'm moving on with my build and am now thinking about the fuel system. The tank and cockpit module are still out and so I have a blank canvas with regards to what I can do. > > I note that various mods are available for this namely: Mod 33 (Water Drain Valves), Mod 49 (Fuel Filter mod) and Mod 60 (Electric contents gauge). > > >From that list, Mod 49 sounds like a good idea as does Mod 33. What do people think about Mod 60?? I'm favouring the 'keep it simple' approach on this build and would think that the sight gauge is a nice simple idea. I've had a look at some previous comments on all this and it seems that maybe it isn't. > > Anyway, what fuel system mods do people think are necessary and why? > > Thanks, > > Phil > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:01 AM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel System - What should I add? Phil, I've found the sight gauge to be useless in flight ( mine is between the seats) The tubing quickly discolours and even with a float in the tubing I needed a flashlight to check the level. I've just installed a Westach fuel gauge and sender and removed the sight gauge, I should have done it during the build process, would have made life much easier. I've never found any water in the water drain valves, so as yet have not found that mod to be of much use. I tend to think that the gascolator on its own would have been enough. Dave A061 On 15-Feb-08, at 8:39 AM, flyingphil2 wrote: > > > Hi, > > I'm moving on with my build and am now thinking about the fuel > system. The tank and cockpit module are still out and so I have a > blank canvas with regards to what I can do. > > I note that various mods are available for this namely: Mod 33 > (Water Drain Valves), Mod 49 (Fuel Filter mod) and Mod 60 (Electric > contents gauge). > >> From that list, Mod 49 sounds like a good idea as does Mod 33. >> What do people think about Mod 60?? I'm favouring the 'keep it >> simple' approach on this build and would think that the sight >> gauge is a nice simple idea. I've had a look at some previous >> comments on all this and it seems that maybe it isn't. > > Anyway, what fuel system mods do people think are necessary and why? > > Thanks, > > Phil > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:21 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel System - What should I add? From: "rampil" I also have found my between the seats level tube to be completely unreliable! I am designing a new fuel weight / quantity system, not too different that previously published here. I'm just using more expensive probes with amplification and temp compensation. Pity PFA wouldn't like it (NIH syndrome) -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164259#164259 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:11 PM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs (FB)" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel System - What should I add? >The tubing quickly discolours and even with a float in the tubing I >needed a flashlight >to check the level. >Dave A061 Dave, How quickly does the tubing discolor? Are we talking months, years, or? Regards, Greg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:57 PM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel System - What should I add? Hi Greg, Using Auto gas , the tubing would discolour in a few months. My inspector would not accept the original tubing as it showed signs of deterioration, I replaced this with clear polyurethane, then tried the blue Bing fuel line from A.S. They all discoloured, and in flight I never had any worthwhile indication of the fuel level. The Westach is non linear due to the tank shape, but was easy to install, and I now know when I'm down to the last 20 litres. Dave On 15-Feb-08, at 3:05 PM, Greg Fuchs (FB) wrote: > > >> The tubing quickly discolours and even with a float in the tubing I >> needed a flashlight >> to check the level. >> Dave A061 > > Dave, > How quickly does the tubing discolor? Are we talking months, years, > or? > Regards, > Greg > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel System - What should I add? From: Fred Klein > > I also have found my between the seats level tube to be completely > unreliable! Ira, Does the tubing leading to your "between the seats level tube" incorporate the supplied flow restrictor? I have installed the flow restrictor in tubing leading to the typical footwell sight gauge...still under construction so I've no performance data. I have also installed a "between the seats" sight gauge, using Acft Spruce rigid pipe (sold as a Quickie fuel sight gauge) thinking that it would be most useful during refueling since it is readily visable; however, since I've assumed that the flow restrictor would create a time lag between what's in the tank and what shows on the sight gauge, I've omitted it. And FWIW, I've also installed the Europa mod fuel gauge. Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:52 PM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel System - What should I add? Yep I went the westach fuel sender also, so it can talk to EFIS or just a gauge, and ditched the europa fliters in place of a gascolator with access through a hatch so the bottom is clean with no BITS hanging out. A lot of builders are also switching the rubber hose for teflon lined stuff or alloy lines with flare type fittings. Not sure if this is allowed by the PFA (LAA) though. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of flyingphil2 Sent: Friday, 15 February 2008 11:39 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel System - What should I add? Hi, I'm moving on with my build and am now thinking about the fuel system. The tank and cockpit module are still out and so I have a blank canvas with regards to what I can do. I note that various mods are available for this namely: Mod 33 (Water Drain Valves), Mod 49 (Fuel Filter mod) and Mod 60 (Electric contents gauge). >From that list, Mod 49 sounds like a good idea as does Mod 33. What do people think about Mod 60?? I'm favouring the 'keep it simple' approach on this build and would think that the sight gauge is a nice simple idea. I've had a look at some previous comments on all this and it seems that maybe it isn't. Anyway, what fuel system mods do people think are necessary and why? Thanks, Phil Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org 6:35 PM 7:08 PM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:38 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel System - What should I add? From: "rampil" Hi All, I agree that the Europa-supplied tubing discolors to yellow within months. Still transparent though. If you place the diagonal bars behind the tubing, the change in index of refraction makes finding the meniscus much easier. I also have run a strip of LED tape alongside the sight tube for twilight / night ops. For the the first 2 years of flying, I had no flow restrictor at the base of the sight gauge. The contents of the gauge was always high and the tubing started to craze after 2 years. When I replaced the tubing, I discovered why it always was high at least. I discovered that the upholsterer that FlightCrafter has found for me had stuffed the section of tubing from the top of the sight gauge to the vent line so tightly at the back of the cockpit module that it was irretrievably crimped AND stuck so I could not dislodge it. I had to route a new vent return line and when I replaced the cruddy sight tubing, I added the restricter. I can't really say that the accuracy is much improved over the following year. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164336#164336 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:10 PM PST US From: Kevin Klinefelter Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel System - What should I add? Hi All, On a related note, regarding the Long Range Tank from Europa. I have plumbed mine in a bit differently than the factory directions.I installed G.S. fuel outlets so that I could use AN fittings on the primary tank.. I elected to not install a sight gauge, which left me with an unused threaded port on both main and reserve outlets.So I plumbed the long range outlet into the main tank outlet. This will make most all fuel in the long range tank usable, as opposed to the factory method of connecting to the reserve side at the filler fitting, which means you have more reserve, but you can't really use it unless you want to fly down to bottom of the reserve! If anyone can think of a problem with this setup, please let me know... Kevin .. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:19 PM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Europa-List: Re: Drawings or pictures of Ourtigger Assembly Jeff, Check out my build web site (URL in signature block). I have just added an album showing the operation of the flap/outrigger mechanism. I have not added all the pics yet. I only have pics from inboard looking outboard. I will add pics from outboard looking inboard shortly. If this doesn't answer your questions, let me know and I'll try to take more pics showing exactly what you would like. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear complete, rudder system in with Singleton Mod, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, baggage bay in. Fuel system complte. Rotax and Airmaster installed. Mods 62, 66, 70 & 72 done. Compled the instrument panel install. Europa interior kit being installed. Installed windows. Working in - 25 Electrical, 28 Flaps, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing. Mostly finishing these days. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:29 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel System - What should I add? Hi all, My aircraft has been flying for 3 years, 700 hours and so far the fuel system I have installed is working well. Here is what I did. 1. Discarded the dual Europa filters 2. Installed a single gascolator 3. Installed the fuel totalizer system for my EIS 4. My fuel gauge system weighs the fuel in the tank and displays it on a 10 bar LED segment. It works perfectly, and gets around all of the sight gauge / capacitance probe issues. 5. I used fuel injection hose instead of standard automotive rubber hose 6. I installed an aluminum elbow into the fuel tank. 7. I have the water drains and gascolator accessible via a single hatch under the aircraft. Take a look at http://www.europa.net.nz/363/index.html under Jan 2001 for a few photos. What would I do different ? 1. Use an Andiar fuel selector. 2. Use two gascolators, one for each side of the tank 3. Use very thin Nyloflow hose for the fuel/water drain feeds. 4. Install aluminum fuel lines, which is quite an undertaking. Ron Parigoris has posted a bunch of photos on the http://www.europaowners.org site. Knowing what I know now I would probably do something similar. Just my 2 cents worth. 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