---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/10/08: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:27 AM - Re: CHTs everywhere (Kingsley Hurst) 2. 03:46 AM - Transponder antenna position (kenatkinson) 3. 04:18 AM - Re: CHTs everywhere (josok) 4. 04:26 AM - Re: CHTs everywhere (Paul Stewart) 5. 04:52 AM - Re: Transponder antenna position (josok) 6. 05:04 AM - Re: CHTs everywhere (rampil) 7. 05:06 AM - Re: CHTs everywhere (josok) 8. 05:06 AM - Re: Exhaust Pipe Crack (rampil) 9. 08:08 AM - Re: CHTs everywhere (Paul Stewart) 10. 09:01 AM - Re: Transponder antenna position (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 11. 10:14 AM - Re: Transponder antenna position (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 12. 10:20 AM - Re: Spacer for Wing Top (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 13. 11:09 AM - Re: CHTs everywhere (josok) 14. 11:44 AM - Re: Spacer for Wing Top (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 15. 12:07 PM - Re: Spacer for Wing Top (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 16. 12:07 PM - Re: CHTs everywhere (josok) 17. 12:14 PM - Re: Transponder antenna position (josok) 18. 12:53 PM - Re: Spacer for Wing Top (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 19. 03:02 PM - Re: Spacer for Wing Top (Rowland Carson) 20. 03:42 PM - Re: Transponder antenna position (Graham Singleton) 21. 05:28 PM - Re: Spacer for Wing Top (Fred Klein) 22. 08:42 PM - Re: Transponder antenna position (DuaneFamly@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:23 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: CHTs everywhere Hello Ira, I've yet to get to this exciting stage but I'm just wondering if you have calibrated all the sensors and their respective monitors by putting all the sensors in a pot of cold water and then bringing it all to boiling point to ascertain any discrepancies which might exist in these items alone ? Best regards Kingsley in Oz. ----- Original Message ----- From: "rampil" > I finally completed my cylinder head temp monitoring system so now > I have . . . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:46:49 AM PST US From: "kenatkinson" Subject: Europa-List: Transponder antenna position I have just received my Filser TRT 800 mode S transponder and am pondering on where to position the antenna. Has anyone already successfully fitted, tested one.Also has it been approved? Ken. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:18:38 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: CHTs everywhere From: "josok" Interesting data! On my bird there are ring probes under the spark plugs, and one Rotax cht probe is in use. The ring probe on #3 indicates about 15 C higher as the Rotax probe. Since oil- and coolant temperature are coupled in the oi-water heat exchanger, i am using the oil temperature as coolant temperature indication. All the temperatures are within 1 degree when the engine is cold. If the engine pre-heater is on and the cowl under it's blanket, all temperatures are again within 1 degree of about 50 C. My concern is in flight, especially on low power, like 55%, the front ring terminals are around 60 C, and the hottest rear is around 100, with 95 C for the other. Oil will typically be 85 to 90 C That's with an OAT of -5 to -10 C. My next move is to temporarily block the standard air cooling openings and see if the Rotax shroud and it's intake will produce a more even picture. And then hope for acceptable results in the hot summer. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:15 AM PST US From: Paul Stewart Subject: Re: Europa-List: CHTs everywhere Ira Are you not monitoring the VDO probes with your EFIS because they are ungrounded probes? I am hoping that changing the VDO probes to Westach grounded alternatives (which fit the holes in the head) will work. They certainly read on the EFIS but we haven't had the engine running yet. regards Paul On 9 Apr 2008, at 13:49, rampil wrote: > > I finally completed my cylinder head temp monitoring system so now > I have 3 sites of measurement: Regular Rotax VDO probes into > the heads of Cylinders 2, 3 going to an analog gauge; > Ring-type CHTs installed under the Rotax CHT probes and monitored by > my Blue Mountain EFIS, and finally the Lockwood/Rotax coolant temp > probe with a Blue Mountain probe going into the EFIS. > > So far, I have only done cowl-off, static testing but the results are > interesting: > The coolant temp at 4000 rpm is 20F higher than the Rotax/VDO > which is about 20F higher than the ring probes outside the block. > > These will probably change when cowled and at cruise and climb which > I plan to test when I return from SnF. > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175679#175679 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Transponder antenna position From: "josok" I stuck a Bob Archer thing against the luggage bay bulkhead. First wrong way, it has to be horizontal. The radio stays clean, no ticking sounds from the transponder, and ATC sees me even in the steel hangar :-) It's a nice transponder. and backs up as an altimeter with it's encoder built in. I am very happy with it. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:52 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: CHTs everywhere From: "rampil" Hi Kingsley, Be a former quant, yes, I love calibration! In situ the probes all read equal when the engine is cold. Hi Jos, It would be very interesting to compare the ring location I have vs the spark plug site. I was advised by Kerry at Lockwood not to go there because the relationship between temps there and the "official" site were not known or at least documented. I am enclosing a pic of the two probes installed. When using the VDO probes on 2,3 on my old BMA EFIS, there was usually a 20F delta between front and back. The shroud should certainly help but it is very expensive. Homebrew anyone? Hi Paul, You are correct! The unipolar probes will not work at all. By design of the engine pod, the voltage across the temp sensitive resistor is not ground referenced and grounding the bottom of the resistor will screw the constant current injector driving the probe. Greg and I tried it anyway to see if it might work, but it was No Go. I would suspect that Westach probes will not work. Blue Mountain does not publish the sensor specs or cal curves but they use a UMA oem sensor element. If you are using a Gen4 unit, you as a user can not recalibrate to a different sensor. If you are using a previous generation EFIS, anything can be made to work but you will need to calibrate it. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175892#175892 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/chts_958.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: CHTs everywhere From: "josok" Paul, The Rotax cht probes are grounded, one side, the housing is ground, and the other side is the connector. They are of the PTCor NTC type, that is a resistor, which changes it's resistance with temperature. Other types of probes are thermocouples, usually designated as "J" or "K" type probes, which produce a tiny voltage depending on the temperature of the junction. Those can be grounded or not. Whether you need resistive probes or "J" or "K" types probes is dependent on the EIS and it's inputs. My Dynon D180 accepts both, but only on certain positions. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:57 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Exhaust Pipe Crack From: "rampil" Where did your exhaust crack? See my previous post. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175893#175893 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:25 AM PST US From: Paul Stewart Subject: Re: Europa-List: CHTs everywhere Jos It's using aircraft ground which a believe is the problem with the BMA EFIS - hence the need to use a thermistor with two wires. I believe the E1 uses it's own internal ground as reference so CHT and Oli temp need grounds going back to a ground pin on the EFIS. At the risk of upsetting Ira, and accepting I have very little expertise in the area, I wouldn't buy the Blue Mountain unit again. Not for a Rotax anyway and not flying in Europe. Still you live and learn. Regards Paul G-GIDY On 10 Apr 2008, at 13:04, josok wrote: > > Paul, > > The Rotax cht probes are grounded, one side, the housing is ground, > and the other side is the connector. They are of the PTCor NTC > type, that is a resistor, which changes it's resistance with > temperature. Other types of probes are thermocouples, usually > designated as "J" or "K" type probes, which produce a tiny voltage > depending on the temperature of the junction. Those can be grounded > or not. Whether you need resistive probes or "J" or "K" types > probes is dependent on the EIS and it's inputs. My Dynon D180 > accepts both, but only on certain positions. > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:30 AM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Transponder antenna position Jos- I installed the Bob Archer antenna back in the tailcone on a piece of balsa. However, I installed it vertically. Transponder antennas are vertically polarized, aren't they, or am I confused? BTW, I have a new sailboat -- get over and try it. Jim Puglise A-283 -------------- Original message -------------- From: "josok" > > I stuck a Bob Archer thing against the luggage bay bulkhead. First wrong way, it > has to be horizontal. The radio stays clean, no ticking sounds from the > transponder, and ATC sees me even in the steel hangar :-) It's a nice > transponder. and backs up as an altimeter with it's encoder built in. I am very > happy with it. > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > >
Jos-
 
I installed the Bob Archer antenna back in the tailcone on a piece of balsa.  However, I installed it vertically.  Transponder antennas are vertically polarized, aren't they, or am I confused?
 
BTW, I have a new sailboat -- get over and try it.
 
Jim Puglise A-283
 
ator t
________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:14 AM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Transponder antenna position Jim, I just installed the Bob Archer Transponder ant. and, yes, it is supposed to go horizontally. The connector should be closest to the front of the aircraft with the opposite end (that containing the mass of the ant. copper element) should point towards the tail. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop In a message dated 4/10/2008 9:02:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise@comcast.net writes: Jos- I installed the Bob Archer antenna back in the tailcone on a piece of balsa. However, I installed it vertically. Transponder antennas are vertically polarized, aren't they, or am I confused? BTW, I have a new sailboat -- get over and try it. Jim Puglise A-283 ator t (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:31 AM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spacer for Wing Top Thanks Jim, I did drill those holes for pressure relief. I also added some extra plywood/fiberglass support around the triangle area at the wing root due to concerns of the skin flexing while people are entering or exiting the plane. I have quadruple checked for no tools or spare nuts & bolts and have cleaned, scuffed, and cleaned again the contact areas. Will epoxy today. Am using the 10' long piece of square tubing, clamps, and a bunch of my dive weights to insure good contact. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:00:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise@comcast.net writes: Mike- I have the identical setup that you do and just did my skins last week. If you look in the build manual, it seems to say that you don't use the pacers under the ailerons. I didn't and I will need to trim more skin than I want to to get the required up aileron. If I was going to do it again, I'd probably use the spacers under both aileron and flaps. To attach the spacers, we cut several pieces of packating tape, used a yellow hilighter to draw the line on the flaps, dropped the flaps, I then held each depressor in place while my wife put the tape across it to hold it in place. When they were all on, we ran a couple of thicknesses of packtaging tape the length of the flap to hold the spacers in place. Gotchas: Don't forget to drill the hole for pressure relief in the last rib on the outboard end. Also, it does not mention it in the manual but I notice that there is a triangular shaped area on the inboard end of the wing that will also be sealed. It is rather small, so may not be a problem, but I'd probably want to put a hole in that rib too for pressure relief. Make sure the MW-4 rod ends are installed on the aileron bellcrank before closing and have at least two other people confirm that you have not left any tools in the wing before closing. You may also want to mix the Araldite a little thicker than usual so it will "stick to your ribs" (bad pun). Last, don't forget to scuff sand both surfaces well. We just used bricks for weights and it all went fine. Let us know how it goes. Jim Puglise A-283 -------------- Original message -------------- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Good day All, I have a quick question.......would those people that have already bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070" thick. Thanks in advance. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ____________________________________ Planning your summer road trip? Check out _AOL Travel Guides_ (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) . (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:35 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: CHTs everywhere From: "josok" Hi Ira, Because there is no factory data available for under spark plug temperatures, i did compare those with the original Rotax probes in head 1 and 3, and came to the 15 C higher outcome under normal loads. The spark plug sensors react much faster then the rotax probes, which can be expected, thermocouples have a much lower lag. The main reason for going this way however was to have an early warning available in case one of the barrels goes out of the normal. This, together with 4 EGT probes gives a pretty good picture on what's going on. I did go the expensive way, Rotax shroud. Which function is pretty much inhibited by the standard openings as i am experiencing now. I will come back and report on the next, closed eyes experiment. After all, this is an experimental! Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:22 AM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spacer for Wing Top Let me know how it comes out Mike. I have quick-build flaps and after I got the skin on, noticed that one was a little long. I checked it and it was about 3/8 longer than it should have been so my day has been spent shortening it. I filled the outside ends of the flaps and ailerons. Are you doing a "pre" close before the final bonding? Bob Berube suggested that I do so and I'm glad I did. Jim -------------- Original message -------------- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Thanks Jim, I did drill those holes for pressure relief. I also added some extra plywood/fiberglass support around the triangle area at the wing root due to concerns of the skin flexing while people are entering or exiting the plane. I have quadruple checked for no tools or spare nuts & bolts and have cleaned, scuffed, and cleaned again the contact areas. Will epoxy today. Am using the 10' long piece of square tubing, clamps, and a bunch of my dive weights to insure good contact. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:00:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise@comcast.net writes: Mike- I have the identical setup that you do and just did my skins last week. If you look in the build manual, it seems to say that you don't use the pacers under the ailerons. I didn't and I will need to trim more skin than I want to to get the required up aileron. If I was going to do it again, I'd probably use the spacers under both aileron and flaps. To attach the spacers, we cut several pieces of packating tape, used a yellow hilighter to draw the line on the flaps, dropped the flaps, I then held each depressor in place while my wife put the tape across it to hold it in place. When they were all on, we ran a couple of thicknesses of packtaging tape the length of the flap to hold the spacers in place. Gotchas: Don't forget to drill the hole for pressure relief in the last rib on the outboard end. Also, it does not mention it in the manual but I notice that there is a triangular shaped area on the inboard end of the wing that will also be sealed. It is rather small, so may not be a problem, but I'd probably want to put a hole in that rib too for pressure relief. Make sure the MW-4 rod ends are installed on the aileron bellcrank before closing and have at least two other people confirm that you have not left any tools in the wing before closing. You may also want to mix the Araldite a little thicker than usual so it will "stick to your ribs" (bad pun). Last, don't forget to scuff sand both surfaces well. We just used bricks for weights and it all went fine. Let us know how it goes. Jim Puglise A-283 -------------- Original message -------------- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Good day All, I have a quick question.......would those people that have already bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070" thick. Thanks in advance. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Let me know how it comes out Mike.  I have quick-build flaps and after I got the skin on, noticed that one was a little long.  I checked it and it was about 3/8 longer than it should have been so my day has been spent shortening it.  I filled the outside ends of the flaps and ailerons. 
 
Are you doing a "pre" close before the final bonding?  Bob Berube suggested that I do so and I'm glad I did.
 
Jim
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Thanks Jim,
 
I did drill those holes for pressure relief. I also added some extra plywood/fiberglass support around the triangle area at the wing root due to concerns of the skin flexing while people are entering or exiting the plane. I have quadruple checked for no tools or spare nuts & bolts and have cleaned, scuffed, and cleaned again the contact areas. Will epoxy today. Am using the 10' long piece of square tubing, clamps, and a bunch of my dive weights to insure good contact.
 
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
 
In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:00:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise@comcast.net writes:
Mike-
 
I have the identical setup that you do and just did my skins last week.  If you look in the build manual, it seems to say that you don't use the pacers under the ailerons.  I didn't and I will need to trim more skin than I want to to get the required up aileron.  If I was going to do it again, I'd probably use the spacers under both aileron and flaps.  To attach the spacers, we cut several pieces of packating tape, used a yellow hilighter to draw the line on the flaps, dropped the flaps, I then held each depressor in place while my wife put the tape across it to hold it in place.  When they were all on, we ran a couple of thicknesses of packtaging tape the length of the flap to hold the spacers in place.
 
Gotchas:  Don't forget to drill the hole for pressure relief in the last rib on the outboard end.  Also, it does not mention it in the manual but I notice that there is a triangular shaped area on the inboard end of the wing that will also be sealed.  It is rather small, so may not be a problem, but I'd probably want to put a hole in that rib too for pressure relief.  Make sure the MW-4 rod ends are installed on the aileron bellcrank before closing and have at least two other people confirm that you have not left any tools in the wing before closing.  You may also want to mix the Araldite a little thicker than usual so it will "stick to your ribs" (bad pun).  Last, don't forget to scuff sand both surfaces well.  We just used bricks for weights and it all went fine.   
 
Let us know how it goes.   
 
Jim Puglise A-283
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Good day All,
 
I have a quick question.......would those people that have already bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070" thick.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop



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________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:06 PM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spacer for Wing Top Pre-close? Other than setting the top skin on and shaping for a good fit, I'm not sure what you are speaking of. Mike Duane In a message dated 4/10/2008 11:45:20 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise@comcast.net writes: Let me know how it comes out Mike. I have quick-build flaps and after I got the skin on, noticed that one was a little long. I checked it and it was about 3/8 longer than it should have been so my day has been spent shortening it. I filled the outside ends of the flaps and ailerons. Are you doing a "pre" close before the final bonding? Bob Berube suggested that I do so and I'm glad I did. Jim -------------- Original message -------------- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Thanks Jim, I did drill those holes for pressure relief. I also added some extra plywood/fiberglass support around the triangle area at the wing root due to concerns of the skin flexing while people are entering or exiting the plane. I have quadruple checked for no tools or spare nuts & bolts and have cleaned, scuffed, and cleaned again the contact areas. Will epoxy today. Am using the 10' long piece of square tubing, clamps, and a bunch of my dive weights to insure good contact. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:00:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise@comcast.net writes: Mike- I have the identical setup that you do and just did my skins last week. If you look in the build manual, it seems to say that you don't use the pacers under the ailerons. I didn't and I will need to trim more skin than I want to to get the required up aileron. If I was going to do it again, I'd probably use the spacers under both aileron and flaps. To attach the spacers, we cut several pieces of packating tape, used a yellow hilighter to draw the line on the flaps, dropped the flaps, I then held each depressor in place while my wife put the tape across it to hold it in place. When they were all on, we ran a couple of thicknesses of packtaging tape the length of the flap to hold the spacers in place. Gotchas: Don't forget to drill the hole for pressure relief in the last rib on the outboard end. Also, it does not mention it in the manual but I notice that there is a triangular shaped area on the inboard end of the wing that will also be sealed. It is rather small, so may not be a problem, but I'd probably want to put a hole in that rib too for pressure relief. Make sure the MW-4 rod ends are installed on the aileron bellcrank before closing and have at least two other people confirm that you have not left any tools in the wing before closing. You may also want to mix the Araldite a little thicker than usual so it will "stick to your ribs" (bad pun). Last, don't forget to scuff sand both surfaces well. We just used bricks for weights and it all went fine. Let us know how it goes. Jim Puglise A-283 -------------- Original message -------------- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Good day All, I have a quick question.......would those people that have already bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070" thick. Thanks in advance. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ____________________________________ Planning your summer road trip? Check out _AOL Travel Guides_ (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) . f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ____________________________________ Planning your summer road trip? Check out _AOL Travel Guides_ (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) . (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: CHTs everywhere From: "josok" Paul, While i don't really want to be knit-picking, i don't quite understand why or where the engine ground would differ from internal ground. Unless there is a bad connection somewhere in between. However unlike thermocouples, there are many different characteristics for resistance probes. It may very well be that BMA thinks it's too much trouble to cope for Rotax probes in software. We'll certainly manage to upset Ira! Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Transponder antenna position From: "josok" Jim, sorry, i first installed the antenna, then i read the manual and changed the polarization. Now i don't remember what's up and down :-) But i do remember a great sailing trip, and agree it's worth suffering an other border security check by those black uniformed #/#%/. But i am afraid it will take another year before it's possible, don't sell it yet! Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:59 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spacer for Wing Top Mike- You mix the redux a little on the thick side using flox, then coat the ribs only. You then put strips of visqueen over them and install and weight the skin. In 24 hours you remove the weights, the skins, the plastic, scuff sand the redux, fill the voids, apply another tyhin coat of redux and re-apply the skins and weights. The reason for this is that some people have opened their wings for one reason or another and found there are voids between the ribs and skins. In my particular case, when we removed the skin after the pre-close, we found very few voids, so I would have been OK without it. I understand that the skins produced relatively recently fit much better than some of the earlier ones, so it may or may not be a step worth doing for you. My kit is A-283 and I don't know at what point they began doing a better job of fitting. Jim -------------- Original message -------------- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Pre-close? Other than setting the top skin on and shaping for a good fit, I'm not sure what you are speaking of. Mike Duane In a message dated 4/10/2008 11:45:20 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise@comcast.net writes: Let me know how it comes out Mike. I have quick-build flaps and after I got the skin on, noticed that one was a little long. I checked it and it was about 3/8 longer than it should have been so my day has been spent shortening it. I filled the outside ends of the flaps and ailerons. Are you doing a "pre" close before the final bonding? Bob Berube suggested that I do so and I'm glad I did. Jim -------------- Original message -------------- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Thanks Jim, I did drill those holes for pressure relief. I also added some extra plywood/fiberglass support around the triangle area at the wing root due to concerns of the skin flexing while people are entering or exiting the plane. I have quadruple checked for no tools or spare nuts & bolts and have cleaned, scuffed, and cleaned again the contact areas. Will epoxy today. Am using the 10' long piece of square tubing, clamps, and a bunch of my dive weights to insure good contact. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:00:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise@comcast.net writes: Mike- I have the identical setup that you do and just did my skins last week. If you look in the build manual, it seems to say that you don't use the pacers under the ailerons. I didn't and I will need to trim more skin than I want to to get the required up aileron. If I was going to do it again, I'd probably use the spacers under both aileron and flaps. To attach the spacers, we cut several pieces of packating tape, used a yellow hilighter to draw the line on the flaps, dropped the flaps, I then held each depressor in place while my wife put the tape across it to hold it in place. When they were all on, we ran a couple of thicknesses of packtaging tape the length of the flap to hold the spacers in place. Gotchas: Don't forget to drill the hole for pressure relief in the last rib on the outboard end. Also, it does not mention it in the manual but I notice that there is a triangular shaped area on the inboard end of the wing that will also be sealed. It is rather small, so may not be a problem, but I'd probably want to put a hole in that rib too for pressure relief. Make sure the MW-4 rod ends are installed on the aileron bellcrank before closing and have at least two other people confirm that you have not left any tools in the wing before closing. You may also want to mix the Araldite a little thicker than usual so it will "stick to your ribs" (bad pun). Last, don't forget to scuff sand both surfaces well. We just used bricks for weights and it all went fine. Let us know how it goes. Jim Puglise A-283 -------------- Original message -------------- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Good day All, I have a quick question.......would those people that have already bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070" thick. Thanks in advance. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List .matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Mike-
 
You mix the redux a little on the thick side using flox, then coat the ribs only.  You then put strips of visqueen over them and install and weight the skin.  In 24 hours you remove the weights, the skins, the plastic, scuff sand the redux, fill the voids, apply another tyhin coat of redux and re-apply the skins and weights.  The reason for this is that some people have opened their wings for one reason or another and found there are voids between the ribs and skins.  In my particular case, when we removed the skin after the pre-close, we found very few voids, so I would have been OK without it.  I understand that the skins produced relatively recently fit much better than some of the earlier ones, so it may or may not be a step worth doing for you.  My kit is A-283 and I don't know at what point they began doing a better job of fitting.   
 
Jim
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Pre-close? Other than setting the top skin on and shaping for a good fit, I'm not sure what you are speaking of.
 
Mike Duane
 
In a message dated 4/10/2008 11:45:20 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise@comcast.net writes:
Let me know how it comes out Mike.  I have quick-build flaps and after I got the skin on, noticed that one was a little long.  I checked it and it was about 3/8 longer than it should have been so my day has been spent shortening it.  I filled the outside ends of the flaps and ailerons. 
 
Are you doing a "pre" close before the final bonding?  Bob Berube suggested that I do so and I'm glad I did.
 
Jim
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Thanks Jim,
 
I did drill those holes for pressure relief. I also added some extra plywood/fiberglass support around the triangle area at the wing root due to concerns of the skin flexing while people are entering or exiting the plane. I have quadruple checked for no tools or spare nuts & bolts and have cleaned, scuffed, and cleaned again the contact areas. Will epoxy today. Am using the 10' long piece of square tubing, clamps, and a bunch of my dive weights to insure good contact.
 
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
 
In a message dated 4/9/2008 9:00:40 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimpuglise@comcast.net writes:
Mike-
 
I have the identical setup that you do and just did my skins last week.  If you look in the build manual, it seems to say that you don't use the pacers under the ailerons.  I didn't and I will need to trim more skin than I want to to get the required up aileron.  If I was going to do it again, I'd probably use the spacers under both aileron and flaps.  To attach the spacers, we cut several pieces of packating tape, used a yellow hilighter to draw the line on the flaps, dropped the flaps, I then held each depressor in place while my wife put the tape across it to hold it in place.  When they were all on, we ran a couple of thicknesses of packtaging tape the length of the flap to hold the spacers in place.
 
Gotchas:  Don't forget to drill the hole for pressure relief in the last rib on the outboard end.  Also, it does not mention it in the manual but I notice that there is a triangular shaped area on the inboard end of the wing that will also be sealed.  It is rather small, so may not be a problem, but I'd probably want to put a hole in that rib too for pressure relief.  Make sure the MW-4 rod ends are installed on the aileron bellcrank before closing and have at least two other people confirm that you have not left any tools in the wing before closing.  You may also want to mix the Araldite a little thicker than usual so it will "stick to your ribs" (bad pun).  Last, don't forget to scuff sand both surfaces well.  We just used bricks for weights and it all went fine.   
 
Let us know how it goes.   
 
Jim Puglise A-283
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Good day All,
 
I have a quick question.......would those people that have already bonded their top wing skins give their opinion as to the build manual using stir sticks as a spacer when bonding on the top skin? Is their thickness the right amount? If I remember correctly, my stir sticks measure about .070" thick.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop



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________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:00 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spacer for Wing Top At 2008-04-10 19:50 +0000 jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote: >You mix the redux a little on the thick side using flox, then coat >the ribs only. You then put strips of visqueen over them and >install and weight the skin Folks - see my journal entry & linked pictures for 16 November 2007 for a graphic illustration of this on my port wing - go to I've just done the starboard wing in the past week and it displayed a different set of rib height variations, so pre-bonding was definitely worthwhile for me. I endorse Neville's advice about using the strip of vinyl as a spacer too - anything thinner would have needed excessive trimming to get my aileron travel up to spec. Hope this helps. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/ | 990 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:11 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Transponder antenna position Jos I thought transponder polarisation was vertical? I always put the Bob Archer thing (excellent imho) with its two arms vertical and the feeder from the BNC horizontal. Am I getting confussed ?:-o Graham josok wrote: > > I stuck a Bob Archer thing against the luggage bay bulkhead. First wrong way, it has to be horizontal. The radio stays clean, no ticking sounds from the transponder, and ATC sees me even in the steel hangar :-) It's a nice transponder. and backs up as an altimeter with it's encoder built in. I am very happy with it. > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spacer for Wing Top From: Fred Klein On Thursday, Apr 10, 2008, at 14:28 US/Pacific, Rowland Carson wrote: > I endorse Neville's advice about using the strip of vinyl as a spacer > too - anything thinner would have needed excessive trimming to get my > aileron travel up to spec. Rowland, Your journal is quite something...thank you for the reference. By any chance, could you give us a thickness measurement of the vinyl strips you're using? Fred A194 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:29 PM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Transponder antenna position I think we simply have a semantics problem. I hope this drawing makes it intact. If not, I'll scan the last page of the install instructions and post it. .................. . . . . O----------------------------------------------................. BNC Conn . . . . <----------- Pilot ................. Tail --------------> Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300A Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.