Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:16 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (streamlinedrafting@iinet.net.au)
2. 01:19 AM - Re: Resin for mod 72 (Charlie Laverty)
3. 02:55 AM - Re: Resin for mod 72 (Paul Stewart)
4. 03:35 AM - Re: Resin for mod 72 (scudrunner)
5. 06:12 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Gary Leinberger)
6. 06:31 AM - Re: Emailing: Tank bulge (Peter Zutrauen)
7. 06:50 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Alan Burrows)
8. 08:31 AM - Re: Emailing: Tank bulge (William Daniell)
9. 10:43 AM - Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Fred Klein)
10. 12:02 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Jeff B)
11. 01:34 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Fred Klein)
12. 01:48 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
13. 02:08 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Jeff B)
14. 03:48 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Graham Singleton)
15. 04:41 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Karl Heindl)
16. 05:41 PM - Re: Emailing: Tank bulge (Rob Housman)
17. 06:14 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. ()
18. 07:06 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Robert Borger)
19. 07:55 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Keith Hickling)
20. 08:22 PM - Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Fred Klein)
21. 10:22 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Venu Rao)
Message 1
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Hi guys, I am just about to start on a part built Europa XS #374 fuselarge is still
in 2 pieces so I'm very interested
to here these problems with the fuel tank (although the cockpit module is in).
I have
also heard of a similar case in
Western Australia where fuel (unleaded petrol)
had been sitting in the tank for about 8 - 12 months I think. The tank split on
the
fuel line.
Does any one know or heard of the SMP system, link attached?
http://www.schuetz.net/schuetz/de/industry_services/service/downloads/brochure_smp_eng
lish.pdf
Regards
Peter H
WA
>Melding
>
>
>Arnold;
>
>A143 has been down for awhile while I am developing an aluminum tank for it. I
got
the leaks after draining gasoline from the tank. What happens is that the tank
expands and I am told that if it is drained it shrinks back slightly. My crack
developed right alonside one of the layup straps in the saddle area. Get a small
mechanics mirror and start probing around. The bulges you are seeing in the spar
aperature are only an example of what happens to all of the surfaces of the tank.
When I cutmy tankout of the cockpit seatback the top of the tank was all rippled
where it had expanded and was constrained by the top of the seat back. The back
flat
surface also exhibited thesame phenomenon it was just constrained by the cockpit
section.
>
>Steve Hagar
>N40 SH
>Mesa AZ
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Arnold Kr. Hansen
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Sent: 4/29/2008 1:26:26 PM
>Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
>Hi,
>
>Shortlybeforestart of taxiing, it was discovered that fuel was coming out of the
fuselage on my Europa XS trigear (LN-ABM), through the access holes below the tank.
Draining of the tank was started and the leakage stopped when 20 - 25 litres were
remaining in the tank.
>
>Two daysbefore I had drained the tank completely since the aircraft had been
stationary (in a heated hangar) since 1. july 2006 with app. 35 litres of mogas
in
the tank. The day of start upI filled 18 litres and checked all hose connections.
Started the engine and runned it for 5 minutes to check hose connections to the
recently installed oil thermostat. Then filled another 36 litres of mogas and started
the engine forthelocal flight.
>
>Removing the wings, it was revealed that the tank front facing the wing spars,
had
great bulges, bulges inwards and outwards, and the centre one touching the aileron
cross tube, see attached picture. I have not yet localized the crack, but I suspect
the saddle section just ahead of the fibreglass bracket. To me the in and out shape
of the bulges indicate compression stresses due to material expansion (caused by
the
fuel applied, 95 octane mogas?). And I think the crack is caused by shear stresses
just forward of the bracket mentioned.
>
>I will appreciate comments and advice. At present I do not trust the material,
polyethylene, used in the tank. Has anybody applied metal tanks?
>
>Regards
>Arnold Kr. Hansen
>Europa XS trigear, Kit No.381
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Resin for mod 72 |
Hi all
West system epoxy is readily available from boatyard & chandlery
outlets, its used extensively in marine repairs.
Gillian King ( Laverty) and Charlie Laverty
Forest Bank
19 Argyll Terrace
Tobermory PA75 6PB
Tel 01688 301264
gillian.king3@virgin.net
charleslaverty@googlemail.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 7:22 PM
Subject: Fw: Europa-List: Resin for mod 72
> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
>
> I believe West System resin is approved and is available from CFS
> fiberglass supplies. I use them frequently as they stock everything you
> are
> likely to need and very reasonably priced eg: 5l of acetone for 9. Their
> service is excellent and I usually recieve everything within 48 hrs of
> ordering.
>
> http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/acatalog/CFS_Catalogue__WEST_EPOXY_SYSTEM_3.html
>
> AFE, formerly RD aviation sells Scheufler resin, also approved
>
> http://www.afeonline.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1898
> Ampreg have an approved supplier in Southampton somewhere but even the
> smallest pack works out expensive (mainly due to the carriage).
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Carl Pattinson
> G-LABS
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Paul Stewart" <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 10:57 PM
>> Subject: Europa-List: Resin for mod 72
>>
>>
>>> <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
>>>
>>> Anyone know of a source of suitable epoxy for Mod 72 in the UK?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Resin for mod 72 |
Thanks for all the responses about resin. Looks like the 500g West
kit should do and relatively easy to get hold of
Regards
paul
G-GIDY
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Resin for mod 72 |
Just in case you want an alternative to West, try Southern Valley Sailplanes:
www.svsp.co.uk.
They supply the Scheufler L285 system and all the bits & pieces (cups, mixing sticks,
flox, gloves etc)
Howard
G-BVOW
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 5
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Steve - if you get a tank developed I would like to get info on it - and
if you (or who you have fabricate them) are interested in selling them
please let me know. I am going to try this new tank I just installed but
have little faith in it -
Gary Leinberger
A237
gleinberger@millersville.edu
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hagar
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:52 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Arnold;
A143 has been down for awhile while I am developing an aluminum tank for
it. I got the leaks after draining gasoline from the tank. What
happens is that the tank expands and I am told that if it is drained it
shrinks back slightly. My crack developed right alonside one of the
layup straps in the saddle area. Get a small mechanics mirror and start
probing around. The bulges you are seeing in the spar aperature are
only an example of what happens to all of the surfaces of the tank.
When I cut my tank out of the cockpit seatback the top of the tank was
all rippled where it had expanded and was constrained by the top of the
seat back. The back flat surface also exhibited thesame phenomenon it
was just constrained by the cockpit section.
Steve Hagar
N40 SH
Mesa AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: Arnold Kr. Hansen <mailto:arno-k@online.no>
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: 4/29/2008 1:26:26 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Hi,
Shortly before start of taxiing, it was discovered that fuel was
coming out of the fuselage on my Europa XS trigear (LN-ABM), through the
access holes below the tank. Draining of the tank was started and the
leakage stopped when 20 - 25 litres were remaining in the tank.
Two days before I had drained the tank completely since the
aircraft had been stationary (in a heated hangar) since 1. july 2006
with app. 35 litres of mogas in the tank. The day of start up I filled
18 litres and checked all hose connections. Started the engine and
runned it for 5 minutes to check hose connections to the recently
installed oil thermostat. Then filled another 36 litres of mogas and
started the engine for the local flight.
Removing the wings, it was revealed that the tank front facing
the wing spars, had great bulges, bulges inwards and outwards, and the
centre one touching the aileron cross tube, see attached picture. I have
not yet localized the crack, but I suspect the saddle section just ahead
of the fibreglass bracket. To me the in and out shape of the bulges
indicate compression stresses due to material expansion (caused by the
fuel applied, 95 octane mogas?). And I think the crack is caused by
shear stresses just forward of the bracket mentioned.
I will appreciate comments and advice. At present I do not trust
the material, polyethylene, used in the tank. Has anybody applied metal
tanks?
Regards
Arnold Kr. Hansen
Europa XS trigear, Kit No.381
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Emailing: Tank bulge |
I I remember correctly a few years back there was a change in the tanks from
the factory, basically flourinating them to avoid these problems. Are these
problematic tanks older pre-flourinated ones? Or are the new tanks also
chemically inadequate? I'd hate to hear how much $$ a custom welded Alum
would cost (let alone all the probs associated with weld quality leaks).
Cheers,
Pete Z.
A239 *still* a pile of parts.
On 4/29/08, Jeff B <topglock@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> While Baby Blue is in for repairs and installation of her new altitude
> hold, I had occasion to look over the tank area, thoroughly. Sure enough, I
> found evidence of contact between the center push rod and the tank, right
> where you gents are point to. No real damage to the tank, but it was
> definitely touching. I applied a bit of Velcro loop to the tank area to
> guard against against further wear. I plan to either reposition the push
> rod, or extend the brace to push the tank back into it's intended shape.
> I'll let everyone know what I come up with and supply a pic or two...
>
> BTW, my new exhaust down pipe, just arrived. I'll install it tomorrow.
> Many thanks to John and Rodger for the prompt shipping. I ordered it one
> week ago, yesterday...
>
> Jeff,
> Baby Blue
>
> Steven Pitt wrote:
>
> > Following Arnold's picture I thought I would take one of my tank and the
> > bulge therein. Very similar but without a leak so far (!!??) as I know.
> > Steve Pitt
> > Tank bulge
> >
> > e-mail security
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Checked by AVG.
> >
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Hi Everyone
As you may know from previous posts. I had a tank split on me last year
after bringing my aircraft over to the USA from UK. The aircraft had been
used for several years in UK without problem. The tank had sat empty for
over two months before being refilled with unleaded fuel again (thanks to US
customs). The split occurred on the inside of the tunnel and was very
difficult to see even with the wings removed. Initially we tried to repair
the damage by cutting off the top of the tank applying a sealant to the
inside and refitting the top, which seemed easier than removing the whole
thing. The repair lasted about a week and then started to leak again! So the
only solution was to remove the tank and replace it. The reason I tell this
story again is to hopefully avoid anyone else either leaving the tank empty
after it having previously been filled with fuel (I am convinced that was
the cause of the split) or trying to effect a repair. The only solution in
my opinion is to simply cut it out and replace the thing. The bulges seem to
appear after a time on almost every Europa I have seen so I wouldn't be too
concerned about that
Hope that helps.
Kind regards from sunny Florida :-)
Alan
Message 8
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Subject: | Emailing: Tank bulge |
I would be interested to know how you take the tank out . Do you cut
the
top of the cockpit module out? And if so what is the recommendation for
putting the bit you cut out back on?
Will
PS I am putting in my tri gear main sockets ' without the top on. How
on
earth did anyone put them in with the top on??!
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Zutrauen
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 08:28
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge
I I remember correctly a few years back there was a change in the tanks
from
the factory, basically flourinating them to avoid these problems. Are
these
problematic tanks older pre-flourinated ones? Or are the new tanks also
chemically inadequate? I'd hate to hear how much $$ a custom welded
Alum
would cost (let alone all the probs associated with weld quality
leaks).
Cheers,
Pete Z.
A239 *still* a pile of parts.
On 4/29/08, Jeff B <HYPERLINK "mailto:topglock@cox.net"topglock@cox.net>
wrote:
"mailto:topglock@cox.net" \ntopglock@cox.net>
While Baby Blue is in for repairs and installation of her new altitude
hold,
I had occasion to look over the tank area, thoroughly. Sure enough, I
found
evidence of contact between the center push rod and the tank, right
where
you gents are point to. No real damage to the tank, but it was
definitely
touching. I applied a bit of Velcro loop to the tank area to guard
against
against further wear. I plan to either reposition the push rod, or
extend
the brace to push the tank back into it's intended shape. I'll let
everyone
know what I come up with and supply a pic or two...
BTW, my new exhaust down pipe, just arrived. I'll install it tomorrow.
Many thanks to John and Rodger for the prompt shipping. I ordered it
one
week ago, yesterday...
Jeff,
Baby Blue
Steven Pitt wrote:
Following Arnold's picture I thought I would take one of my tank and the
bulge therein. Very similar but without a leak so far (!!??) as I know.
Steve Pitt
Tank bulge
e-mail security
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/
Nav
igator?Europa-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
Checked by AVG.
27-Apr-08
09:39
Checked by AVG.
27-Apr-08
09:39
Message 9
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
"Troubling" is the kindest word I can utter on this topic.
Heretofore I have eased my mind with the notions that fuel tank
failures have been the result of previously-filled tanks left empty for
extended periods and subject to abnormally high ambient temperatures
(say, an Arizona summer).
Now it appears in Arnold Hansen's case that a partially filled
tank...left untouched for 20 months (with no leaks) but not subject to
extreme temp. changes...then drained for two days and partially
re-filled...is subject to failure.
And Jeff B has been flying the pants off of Baby Blue and finds bulges
and distortion in tank shape sufficient to contact control rods.
Sounds to me that we have a very serious issue on our hands.
I have CM installed, top just clecoed, and will be checking on the
feasibility of supplementing the plywood and aluminum angle
spacers...with the intent of minimizing tank bulging and preventing
interference w/ the control rods. I reason that maintaining the shape
of the tank as much as possible should reduce crack-inducing stresses.
Fred
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Fred and all,
That would be my approach, if I were to build again. Support the front
of the tank with ply, or some such and possibly spray foam all other
areas, to add support. Seems this would completely encase the tank and
keep it relatively ridged. Any other ideas?
As the fleet ages, there are bound to be unforeseen problems that pop
up. We just have to deal with them as they appear and hopefully, spare
the new builders the pain... :)
Jeff - Baby Blue
Exhaust fixed and ready to take to the air, once again...
Fred Klein wrote:
>
> "Troubling" is the kindest word I can utter on this topic.
>
> Heretofore I have eased my mind with the notions that fuel tank failures
> have been the result of previously-filled tanks left empty for extended
> periods and subject to abnormally high ambient temperatures (say, an
> Arizona summer).
>
> Now it appears in Arnold Hansen's case that a partially filled
> tank...left untouched for 20 months (with no leaks) but not subject to
> extreme temp. changes...then drained for two days and partially
> re-filled...is subject to failure.
>
> And Jeff B has been flying the pants off of Baby Blue and finds bulges
> and distortion in tank shape sufficient to contact control rods.
>
> Sounds to me that we have a very serious issue on our hands.
>
> I have CM installed, top just clecoed, and will be checking on the
> feasibility of supplementing the plywood and aluminum angle
> spacers...with the intent of minimizing tank bulging and preventing
> interference w/ the control rods. I reason that maintaining the shape of
> the tank as much as possible should reduce crack-inducing stresses.
>
> Fred
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 12:00 US/Pacific, Jeff B wrote:
> As the fleet ages, there are bound to be unforeseen problems that pop
> up. We just have to deal with them as they appear and hopefully,
> spare the new builders the pain... :)
Jeff...just love your "can do" attitude...helps me persevere! :-) Fred
do not archive
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Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
All,
Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course prevent it
touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which case the strap on
the left spar might catch on the bulge during withdrawal/installation).
The inherent problem with high density polyetylene (HDPE) without any
barrier layer (which automobile tanks have, and the newer Europa tanks may
have - this is now being looked into) is that it is permeable and components
of the fuel get into the material and causes it to swell (and some gets
through the tak walls and gives the typical "Europa smell"). Where the
material is thick, as in the edges between the bottom and sides, sides and
top, and sides to sides, the swelling is apparently negligible. This
swelling cannot be stopped as such, so if the tank is prevented from
buckling forward at all, it will bulge only inwards. This will probably not
be one single large bulge in each panel, but smaller "wrinkles" that another
contributor reported yesterday from his findings along the top and the back
(where outward bulging is restricted).
The best, given this undesired but unavoidable swelling, would be if the
tank were of a simpler shape (say like a box without indentations and the
saddle) and if we had no spacers to keep it away from the controls. Typical
hard points as the saddle and the outlets at the bottom appears to be where
cracks are developing in some cases. Even though the fuel components
entering the permeable material also acts like softeners, local faults in
the material may cause overstressing (e.g. thinner than intended material
due to the fabrication process; maybe insufficient heating during the
moulding).
The spacers installed according to the Builders Manual could be typical
danger areas as far as cracks. However, both on Arnold's tank and mine
(which shows far less bulging - yet), the wave form of the bulging across
the width of the tank is such that there is an inward bulge right behind the
spacers and a forward bulge on either side. It is easy to envisage the
stress that would be introuced if a spacer were installed where the tank
naturally wants to bulge forward.
So, based on what I have observed and learned about the tank material in
these last few days, I would carefully evaluate where to stop the tank's
bulging. Newer tanks have a stiff rib or indentation running across the
front, which should help (one such installation will be inspected shortly by
another owner).
As for those still in the appropriate build stage, I would shape the BM
spacers differently: Build the plate of thicker material, oval instead of
rectangular (with long axis horizontal) and shape its thickness markedly
convex (thich in the center, thinning towards a well rounded circumference).
I am in contact with a polymer expert at a central Norwegian scientific
institute. His immediate comment is that HDPE does not "dry out" if the
tank is left empty, but I am awaiting his further comments to a host of
follow-up questions with relevance to our particular tanks and how we
operate our airplanes. Temperature definitely plays a part in the swelling.
The hotter, the faster it swells, but I am still awaiting to hear from him
whether HDPE swell more (higher maximum swell elongation) in hot weather
than in cold. He also mentioned that the particular fuel used may play a
role. When a major fuel supplier here introduced unleaded 98 octane mogas
several years ago, it was found to "attack" polymers more aggressively than
the previously used auto fuel did (we use unleaded 95 octane mogas in our
Europas here in Norway).
What I really hate about this issue is not knowing whether I have spent 10%
or 90% of my tank's safety margin with the present bulging, and what does
say 5mm more bulging translate into as far as approaching a crack somewhere?
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
So, what you're saying is that the tank "grows" as it swells and will do
so inwardly if not allowed to, outwardly. Hmmmm, that's something I
hadn't considered. I'll have to rethink my solution. Thanks for the
information, Svein. Please keep us up to speed on any additional
information you should get...
Jeff - Baby Blue
Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
>
> All,
>
> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course prevent
> it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which case the
> strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
> withdrawal/installation).
>
> The inherent problem with high density polyetylene (HDPE) without any
> barrier layer (which automobile tanks have, and the newer Europa tanks
> may have - this is now being looked into) is that it is permeable and
> components of the fuel get into the material and causes it to swell (and
> some gets through the tak walls and gives the typical "Europa smell").
> Where the material is thick, as in the edges between the bottom and
> sides, sides and top, and sides to sides, the swelling is apparently
> negligible. This swelling cannot be stopped as such, so if the tank is
> prevented from buckling forward at all, it will bulge only inwards.
> This will probably not be one single large bulge in each panel, but
> smaller "wrinkles" that another contributor reported yesterday from his
> findings along the top and the back (where outward bulging is restricted).
>
> The best, given this undesired but unavoidable swelling, would be if the
> tank were of a simpler shape (say like a box without indentations and
> the saddle) and if we had no spacers to keep it away from the controls.
> Typical hard points as the saddle and the outlets at the bottom appears
> to be where cracks are developing in some cases. Even though the fuel
> components entering the permeable material also acts like softeners,
> local faults in the material may cause overstressing (e.g. thinner than
> intended material due to the fabrication process; maybe insufficient
> heating during the moulding).
>
> The spacers installed according to the Builders Manual could be typical
> danger areas as far as cracks. However, both on Arnold's tank and mine
> (which shows far less bulging - yet), the wave form of the bulging
> across the width of the tank is such that there is an inward bulge right
> behind the spacers and a forward bulge on either side. It is easy to
> envisage the stress that would be introuced if a spacer were installed
> where the tank naturally wants to bulge forward.
>
> So, based on what I have observed and learned about the tank material in
> these last few days, I would carefully evaluate where to stop the tank's
> bulging. Newer tanks have a stiff rib or indentation running across the
> front, which should help (one such installation will be inspected
> shortly by another owner).
>
> As for those still in the appropriate build stage, I would shape the BM
> spacers differently: Build the plate of thicker material, oval instead
> of rectangular (with long axis horizontal) and shape its thickness
> markedly convex (thich in the center, thinning towards a well rounded
> circumference).
>
> I am in contact with a polymer expert at a central Norwegian scientific
> institute. His immediate comment is that HDPE does not "dry out" if the
> tank is left empty, but I am awaiting his further comments to a host of
> follow-up questions with relevance to our particular tanks and how we
> operate our airplanes. Temperature definitely plays a part in the
> swelling. The hotter, the faster it swells, but I am still awaiting to
> hear from him whether HDPE swell more (higher maximum swell elongation)
> in hot weather than in cold. He also mentioned that the particular fuel
> used may play a role. When a major fuel supplier here introduced
> unleaded 98 octane mogas several years ago, it was found to "attack"
> polymers more aggressively than the previously used auto fuel did (we
> use unleaded 95 octane mogas in our Europas here in Norway).
>
> What I really hate about this issue is not knowing whether I have spent
> 10% or 90% of my tank's safety margin with the present bulging, and what
> does say 5mm more bulging translate into as far as approaching a crack
> somewhere?
>
> Regards,
> Svein
> LN-SKJ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
I tend to blame the oil companies for putting all sorts of stuff in the
fuel without a word to anyone.
Could be wrong I suppose
Graham
Fred Klein wrote:
>
> "Troubling" is the kindest word I can utter on this topic.
>
> Heretofore I have eased my mind with the notions that fuel tank failures
> have been the result of previously-filled tanks left empty for extended
> periods and subject to abnormally high ambient temperatures (say, an
> Arizona summer).
>
> Now it appears in Arnold Hansen's case that a partially filled
> tank...left untouched for 20 months (with no leaks) but not subject to
> extreme temp. changes...then drained for two days and partially
> re-filled...is subject to failure.
>
> And Jeff B has been flying the pants off of Baby Blue and finds bulges
> and distortion in tank shape sufficient to contact control rods.
>
> Sounds to me that we have a very serious issue on our hands.
>
> I have CM installed, top just clecoed, and will be checking on the
> feasibility of supplementing the plywood and aluminum angle
> spacers...with the intent of minimizing tank bulging and preventing
> interference w/ the control rods. I reason that maintaining the shape of
> the tank as much as possible should reduce crack-inducing stresses.
>
> Fred
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 15
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
When I inspected my tank a couple of years ago I noticed that the back wall
had buckled inward, probably reducing its capacity somewhat. This may well
have happened on other Europas, but unless you have a large opening at the
top you would never see it. I have an opening for the fuel level probe,
which allows me to get my whole arm into the tank. I was considering constr
ucting some sort of internal framing, but couldn't come up with a good solu
tion.
Karl
lock@cox.net>> > So, what you're saying is that the tank "grows" as it swel
ls and will do > so inwardly if not allowed to, outwardly. Hmmmm, that's so
mething I > hadn't considered. I'll have to rethink my solution. Thanks for
the > information, Svein. Please keep us up to speed on any additional > i
nformation you should get...> > Jeff - Baby Blue> > Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>> > > > All,> > > > Preventing the tank from bu
lging too much forward will of course prevent > > it touching any of the co
ntrols or the wing spar (in which case the > > strap on the left spar might
catch on the bulge during > > withdrawal/installation).> > > > The inheren
t problem with high density polyetylene (HDPE) without any > > barrier laye
r (which automobile tanks have, and the newer Europa tanks > > may have - t
his is now being looked into) is that it is permeable and > > components of
the fuel get into the material and causes it to swell (and > > some gets t
hrough the tak walls and gives the typical "Europa smell"). > > Where the m
aterial is thick, as in the edges between the bottom and > > sides, sides a
nd top, and sides to sides, the swelling is apparently > > negligible. This
swelling cannot be stopped as such, so if the tank is > > prevented from b
uckling forward at all, it will bulge only inwards. > > This will probably
not be one single large bulge in each panel, but > > smaller "wrinkles" tha
t another contributor reported yesterday from his > > findings along the to
p and the back (where outward bulging is restricted).> > > > The best, give
n this undesired but unavoidable swelling, would be if the > > tank were of
a simpler shape (say like a box without indentations and > > the saddle) a
nd if we had no spacers to keep it away from the controls. > > Typical hard
points as the saddle and the outlets at the bottom appears > > to be where
cracks are developing in some cases. Even though the fuel > > components e
ntering the permeable material also acts like softeners, > > local faults i
n the material may cause overstressing (e.g. thinner than > > intended mate
rial due to the fabrication process; maybe insufficient > > heating during
the moulding).> > > > The spacers installed according to the Builders Manua
l could be typical > > danger areas as far as cracks. However, both on Arno
ld's tank and mine > > (which shows far less bulging - yet), the wave form
of the bulging > > across the width of the tank is such that there is an in
ward bulge right > > behind the spacers and a forward bulge on either side.
It is easy to > > envisage the stress that would be introuced if a spacer
were installed > > where the tank naturally wants to bulge forward.> > > >
So, based on what I have observed and learned about the tank material in >
> these last few days, I would carefully evaluate where to stop the tank's
> > bulging. Newer tanks have a stiff rib or indentation running across the
> > front, which should help (one such installation will be inspected > >
shortly by another owner).> > > > As for those still in the appropriate bui
ld stage, I would shape the BM > > spacers differently: Build the plate of
thicker material, oval instead > > of rectangular (with long axis horizonta
l) and shape its thickness > > markedly convex (thich in the center, thinni
ng towards a well rounded > > circumference).> > > > I am in contact with a
polymer expert at a central Norwegian scientific > > institute. His immedi
ate comment is that HDPE does not "dry out" if the > > tank is left empty,
but I am awaiting his further comments to a host of > > follow-up questions
with relevance to our particular tanks and how we > > operate our airplane
s. Temperature definitely plays a part in the > > swelling. The hotter, the
faster it swells, but I am still awaiting to > > hear from him whether HDP
E swell more (higher maximum swell elongation) > > in hot weather than in c
old. He also mentioned that the particular fuel > > used may play a role. W
hen a major fuel supplier here introduced > > unleaded 98 octane mogas seve
ral years ago, it was found to "attack" > > polymers more aggressively than
the previously used auto fuel did (we > > use unleaded 95 octane mogas in
our Europas here in Norway).> > > > What I really hate about this issue is
not knowing whether I have spent > > 10% or 90% of my tank's safety margin
with the present bulging, and what > > does say 5mm more bulging translate
into as far as approaching a crack > > somewhere?> > > > Regards,> > Svein>
===============> > >
Message 16
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Subject: | Emailing: Tank bulge |
In re: Tri-Gear main sockets
One cusses for several hours and hopes the neighbors do not complain about
the foul language. This was where I decided that the factory considered the
Tri-Gear to be the ugly step child in the family.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:26 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge
I would be interested to know how you take the tank out . Do you cut the
top of the cockpit module out? And if so what is the recommendation for
putting the bit you cut out back on?
Will
PS I am putting in my tri gear main sockets - without the top on. How on
earth did anyone put them in with the top on??!
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Zutrauen
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 08:28
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge
I I remember correctly a few years back there was a change in the tanks from
the factory, basically flourinating them to avoid these problems. Are these
problematic tanks older pre-flourinated ones? Or are the new tanks also
chemically inadequate? I'd hate to hear how much $$ a custom welded Alum
would cost (let alone all the probs associated with weld quality leaks).
Cheers,
Pete Z.
A239 *still* a pile of parts.
On 4/29/08, Jeff B <topglock@cox.net> wrote:
While Baby Blue is in for repairs and installation of her new altitude hold,
I had occasion to look over the tank area, thoroughly. Sure enough, I found
evidence of contact between the center push rod and the tank, right where
you gents are point to. No real damage to the tank, but it was definitely
touching. I applied a bit of Velcro loop to the tank area to guard against
against further wear. I plan to either reposition the push rod, or extend
the brace to push the tank back into it's intended shape. I'll let everyone
know what I come up with and supply a pic or two...
BTW, my new exhaust down pipe, just arrived. I'll install it tomorrow.
Many thanks to John and Rodger for the prompt shipping. I ordered it one
week ago, yesterday...
Jeff,
Baby Blue
Steven Pitt wrote:
Following Arnold's picture I thought I would take one of my tank and the
bulge therein. Very similar but without a leak so far (!!??) as I know.
Steve Pitt
Tank bulge
e-mail security
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Checked by AVG.
27-Apr-08 09:39
Checked by AVG.
27-Apr-08 09:39
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
If anyone is interested, here is what we did to "Say "NO" to Crack (in
fuel tank)":
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album233&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Our CPM was in but top was off, but with a little effort you could drop
the pushrod and do layup of tunnel from rear. Use plastic and BID, easy to
polk BID flat from bottom of aeroplane, 2 person job though. Foam very
dooable on completed plane.
Ron Parigoris
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Graham,
There are so many ancillary ingredients added to MoGas it would be
difficult to list them all on the side of the pump. According to the
Wisconsin State Government, there are over 150 separate chemical in
gasoline. There are detergents, solvents, oxidents, octane increasers
and many other things beside C5 - C12 hydrocarbons. And it varies
from Regular to Super Premium. Some of them are mandated by the
government. Others are there to keep your carb or fuel injectors,
etc., neat and tidy. Most of them change on a seasonal basis to
provide fuel which meets Federal standards on emissions. Here in the
U.S.A., there are even regional formulations. Fuels that provide the
minimum emissions for the temperature/humidity ranges of the area.
Fuels that are OK in Minnesota are verboten in Texas and vice-versa.
Though, I bet if you wrote to your favorite oil company you could get
a listing of ingredients. I doubt there are any "secret"
ingredients. Check their website for information and contacts. You
can also do a Google search on Gasoline Additives or start with the
Wikipedia and ask about gasoline and/or gasoline additives. All
provide good starter information.
AvGas on the other hand is almost devoid of additives other than
tetraethyl lead for antiknock. This is why AvGas stores well and
MoGas doesn't. All those MoGas additives are volatile and will
evaporate out of MoGas surprisingly quickly.
Certainly there are no insidious reasons for the oil companies to hide
what goes in their gas. It's just that most folks wouldn't know what
2,4-dimethyl-6-tert-butylphenol or methylcyclopentadienyl manganese
tricarbonyl are or what they do in any case.
Just some thoughts from a fellow who has been in "da o'l bidness" (as
they used to say in Louisiana) for 30+ years.
Check six,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(95% done 95% to go) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module
installed, pitch system in, landing gear complete, rudder system in
with Singleton Mod, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap
pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, baggage bay
in. Fuel system complete. Rotax and Airmaster installed. Mods 62,
66, 70 & 72 done. Completed the instrument panel install. Europa
interior kit being installed. Installed windows. Working in - 25
Electrical, 28 Flaps, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35
Doors, 37 Finishing. Mostly finishing these days.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Apr 30, 2008, at 17:47, Graham Singleton wrote:
> >
>
> I tend to blame the oil companies for putting all sorts of stuff in
> the fuel without a word to anyone.
> Could be wrong I suppose
> Graham
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Thanks for that Bob.
So is the problem of cracks and bulges limited to the use of mogas? Has
anyone using Avgas had bulges or cracks in the tank? For those of us who
have not yet had fuel in the tank, would avgas be better?
Keith Hickling,
New Zealand.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Borger" <rlborger@mac.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> Graham,
>
> There are so many ancillary ingredients added to MoGas it would be
> difficult to list them all on the side of the pump. According to the
> Wisconsin State Government, there are over 150 separate chemical in
> gasoline. There are detergents, solvents, oxidents, octane increasers
> and many other things beside C5 - C12 hydrocarbons. And it varies from
> Regular to Super Premium. Some of them are mandated by the government.
> Others are there to keep your carb or fuel injectors, etc., neat and
> tidy. Most of them change on a seasonal basis to provide fuel which
> meets Federal standards on emissions. Here in the U.S.A., there are even
> regional formulations. Fuels that provide the minimum emissions for the
> temperature/humidity ranges of the area. Fuels that are OK in Minnesota
> are verboten in Texas and vice-versa.
>
> Though, I bet if you wrote to your favorite oil company you could get a
> listing of ingredients. I doubt there are any "secret" ingredients.
> Check their website for information and contacts. You can also do a
> Google search on Gasoline Additives or start with the Wikipedia and ask
> about gasoline and/or gasoline additives. All provide good starter
> information.
>
> AvGas on the other hand is almost devoid of additives other than
> tetraethyl lead for antiknock. This is why AvGas stores well and MoGas
> doesn't. All those MoGas additives are volatile and will evaporate out
> of MoGas surprisingly quickly.
>
> Certainly there are no insidious reasons for the oil companies to hide
> what goes in their gas. It's just that most folks wouldn't know what
> 2,4-dimethyl-6-tert-butylphenol or methylcyclopentadienyl manganese
> tricarbonyl are or what they do in any case.
>
> Just some thoughts from a fellow who has been in "da o'l bidness" (as
> they used to say in Louisiana) for 30+ years.
>
> Check six,
> Bob Borger
> Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
> http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
> (95% done 95% to go) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module
> installed, pitch system in, landing gear complete, rudder system in with
> Singleton Mod, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in,
> wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, baggage bay in. Fuel
> system complete. Rotax and Airmaster installed. Mods 62, 66, 70 & 72
> done. Completed the instrument panel install. Europa interior kit
> being installed. Installed windows. Working in - 25 Electrical, 28
> Flaps, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing.
> Mostly finishing these days.
> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
> Corinth, TX 76208
> Home: 940-497-2123
> Cel: 817-992-1117
>
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 17:47, Graham Singleton wrote:
>
>> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
>> >
>>
>> I tend to blame the oil companies for putting all sorts of stuff in the
>> fuel without a word to anyone.
>> Could be wrong I suppose
>> Graham
>
>
>
Message 20
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
wrote:
> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
>
> All,
>
> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
> withdrawal/installation).
Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential bulging
in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in fall,
2000).
In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers (which
have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up) to ensure
a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of between 1/8"
and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron control rod, I
was planning to do the following:
Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior to
insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers bid
on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in place
w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of the FG
"shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my goal
would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on the
nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
address this insidious problem.
Fred
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
for signs of bulging.
Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
Berube. Just need to price it out.
Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
This forum is invaluable!
Hope all's well.
Cheers
Venu
Cell: (512) 771-3286
On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
> Johnsen wrote:
>
>> >
>>
>> All,
>>
>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>> withdrawal/installation).
>
> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
> bulging in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the
> factory in fall, 2000).
>
> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
> to ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the
> aileron control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>
> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of
> bid each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is
> a closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any
> building supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the
> tank. Prior to insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam
> stiffener w/ 2 layers bid on the forward face of the plywood. The
> plywood would be held in place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which
> laps onto the underside of the FG "shelf" (previously installed as
> per manual). In doing this, my goal would be to resist "bulging" of
> the forward face of the tank.
>
> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
> the nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>
> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
> address this insidious problem.
>
> Fred
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
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