Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:21 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Graham Singleton)
2. 02:31 AM - Re: Emailing: Tank bulge (craig bastin)
3. 02:48 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (craig bastin)
4. 05:02 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Robert Borger)
5. 05:08 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Robert Borger)
6. 05:12 AM - Re: Mogas storage (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
7. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: Mogas storage (Robert Borger)
8. 05:44 AM - Fuel additives (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
9. 06:09 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (karelvranken)
10. 07:06 AM - Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
11. 10:05 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Gary Leinberger)
12. 10:11 AM - Popham Microlight Rally (Steven Pitt)
13. 10:52 AM - Fuel tank - bulges and leakage - Correction (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
14. 11:00 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Rob Housman)
15. 01:03 PM - Popham Microlight rally (Steven Pitt)
16. 01:25 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Alan Burrows)
17. 01:25 PM - Re: Microlight Tradefair - POPHAM 3/4 May (Steve Pitt)
18. 02:33 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (JEFF ROBERTS)
19. 02:58 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Gary Leinberger)
20. 04:50 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Mike Gregory)
21. 05:34 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Venu Rao)
22. 07:24 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Robert Borger)
23. 07:28 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Ralph K. Hallett III)
24. 07:31 PM - Ah, well.... (Fergus Kyle)
25. 11:04 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
26. 11:05 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Hi Bob
apreciate your thoughtful reply.
I wish they wouldn't put alcohol in though, It isn't good for engines
and it is even worse for the environment, takes too much energy to make
it and it uses up too much food, (imho!)
Simple answer, there are already too many of us on this planet, we need
to start colonising space!
Graham
Robert Borger wrote:
>
> Graham,
According to the Wisconsin State Government, there are over 150
separate chemical in
> gasoline. There are detergents, solvents, oxidents, octane increasers
> and many other things beside C5 - C12 hydrocarbons.
> Certainly there are no insidious reasons for the oil companies to hide
> what goes in their gas. It's just that most folks wouldn't know what
> 2,4-dimethyl-6-tert-butylphenol or methylcyclopentadienyl manganese
> tricarbonyl are or what they do in any case.
> Bob Borger
Message 2
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| Subject: | Emailing: Tank bulge |
I still think the trike looks better on the ground, but I may be biased : )
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Thursday, 1 May 2008 10:36 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge
In re: Tri-Gear main sockets
One cusses for several hours and hopes the neighbors do not complain about
the foul language. This was where I decided that the factory considered the
Tri-Gear to be the ugly step child in the family.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:26 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge
I would be interested to know how you take the tank out . Do you cut the
top of the cockpit module out? And if so what is the recommendation for
putting the bit you cut out back on?
Will
PS I am putting in my tri gear main sockets without the top on. How on
earth did anyone put them in with the top on??!
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Zutrauen
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 08:28
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge
I I remember correctly a few years back there was a change in the tanks
from the factory, basically flourinating them to avoid these problems. Are
these problematic tanks older pre-flourinated ones? Or are the new tanks
also chemically inadequate? I'd hate to hear how much $$ a custom welded
Alum would cost (let alone all the probs associated with weld quality
leaks).
Cheers,
Pete Z.
A239 *still* a pile of parts.
On 4/29/08, Jeff B <topglock@cox.net> wrote:
While Baby Blue is in for repairs and installation of her new altitude
hold, I had occasion to look over the tank area, thoroughly. Sure enough, I
found evidence of contact between the center push rod and the tank, right
where you gents are point to. No real damage to the tank, but it was
definitely touching. I applied a bit of Velcro loop to the tank area to
guard against against further wear. I plan to either reposition the push
rod, or extend the brace to push the tank back into it's intended shape.
I'll let everyone know what I come up with and supply a pic or two...
BTW, my new exhaust down pipe, just arrived. I'll install it tomorrow.
Many thanks to John and Rodger for the prompt shipping. I ordered it one
week ago, yesterday...
Jeff,
Baby Blue
Steven Pitt wrote:
Following Arnold's picture I thought I would take one of my tank and the
bulge therein. Very similar but without a leak so far (!!??) as I know.
Steve Pitt
Tank bulge
e-mail security
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Checked by AVG.
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Checked by AVG.
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Where can you get heat sheilding and rocket motors for a europa though
graham??
But on a slightly more serious note, IF the tanks havent been flourine
treated
would it be possible to apply a coating to the inside of the tank before its
installed, or maybe
sprayed into in-situ tanks that havent been filled yet, such as a
vinyl-ester resin which may
atleast slow the whole process down to give the existing tanks a reasonable
service life
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Thursday, 1 May 2008 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Hi Bob
apreciate your thoughtful reply.
I wish they wouldn't put alcohol in though, It isn't good for engines
and it is even worse for the environment, takes too much energy to make
it and it uses up too much food, (imho!)
Simple answer, there are already too many of us on this planet, we need
to start colonising space!
Graham
Robert Borger wrote:
>
> Graham,
According to the Wisconsin State Government, there are over 150
separate chemical in
> gasoline. There are detergents, solvents, oxidents, octane increasers
> and many other things beside C5 - C12 hydrocarbons.
> Certainly there are no insidious reasons for the oil companies to hide
> what goes in their gas. It's just that most folks wouldn't know what
> 2,4-dimethyl-6-tert-butylphenol or methylcyclopentadienyl manganese
> tricarbonyl are or what they do in any case.
> Bob Borger
Checked by AVG.
6:10 PM
Checked by AVG.
6:10 PM
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Graham,
I agree wholeheartedly about the alcohol and for all the same reasons. Turning
food into fuel is STOOPID. But, for better or worse, it has been mandated by
the Fed. Just like MTBE. Which the oil companies fought tooth & nail because
it is one VERY nasty chemical. Strong carcinogen, long-lived and difficult
to remove once it gets into the environment. Guess what, our wonderful Fed ignored
all the arguments and mandated it anyway. Now we have environmental issues
all over the place due to it. FINALLY, two years ago, the Fed dropped the
MTBE mandate. But, still required an oxygenate be added to gasoline. That
oxygenate is, of course, methanol. Great for the corn farmer, really really bad
for everyone else.
And for Ken,
I have no idea if the tank problems are limited to MoGas. It may be so, but it
will take some input from folks who have only run AvGas in their aircraft to
figure out this one.
Personally, I will only be using AvGas in my Rotax once it is running. Two reasons.
#1 Alcohol in MoGas, I won't run it in my Rotax. #2 Difficulty obtaining
MoGas at or near airports across the US, better to stick with one type and
not worry about it. I do plan to use Decalin TCP & Marvel Mystery Oil as additives
in my AvGas and will change the oil at 25 hour intervals.
Check six,
Bob Borger
On Thursday, May 01, 2008, at 04:34AM, "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
wrote:
>
>Hi Bob
>apreciate your thoughtful reply.
>I wish they wouldn't put alcohol in though, It isn't good for engines
>and it is even worse for the environment, takes too much energy to make
>it and it uses up too much food, (imho!)
>Simple answer, there are already too many of us on this planet, we need
>to start colonising space!
>Graham
>
>Robert Borger wrote:
>>
>> Graham,
> According to the Wisconsin State Government, there are over 150
>separate chemical in
>> gasoline. There are detergents, solvents, oxidents, octane increasers
>> and many other things beside C5 - C12 hydrocarbons.
>
>> Certainly there are no insidious reasons for the oil companies to hide
>> what goes in their gas. It's just that most folks wouldn't know what
>> 2,4-dimethyl-6-tert-butylphenol or methylcyclopentadienyl manganese
>> tricarbonyl are or what they do in any case.
>
>> Bob Borger
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Europaphiles,
Oops... Not Methanol (wood alcohol), but Ethanol (grain alcohol) in that previous
post.
Drat, I always get those two mixed up. Luckily, the yeasties don't get them mixed
up so I know my beer will always have The Right Stuff.
Check six,
Bob Borger
On Wednesday, April 30, 2008, at 10:06PM, "Keith Hickling" <keithhickling@clear.net.nz>
wrote:
>
>Thanks for that Bob.
>
>So is the problem of cracks and bulges limited to the use of mogas? Has
>anyone using Avgas had bulges or cracks in the tank? For those of us who
>have not yet had fuel in the tank, would avgas be better?
>
>Keith Hickling,
>New Zealand.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Robert Borger" <rlborger@mac.com>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 2:03 PM
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
>>
>> Graham,
>>
>> There are so many ancillary ingredients added to MoGas it would be
>> difficult to list them all on the side of the pump. According to the
>> Wisconsin State Government, there are over 150 separate chemical in
>> gasoline. There are detergents, solvents, oxidents, octane increasers
>> and many other things beside C5 - C12 hydrocarbons. And it varies from
>> Regular to Super Premium. Some of them are mandated by the government.
>> Others are there to keep your carb or fuel injectors, etc., neat and
>> tidy. Most of them change on a seasonal basis to provide fuel which
>> meets Federal standards on emissions. Here in the U.S.A., there are even
>> regional formulations. Fuels that provide the minimum emissions for the
>> temperature/humidity ranges of the area. Fuels that are OK in Minnesota
>> are verboten in Texas and vice-versa.
>>
>> Though, I bet if you wrote to your favorite oil company you could get a
>> listing of ingredients. I doubt there are any "secret" ingredients.
>> Check their website for information and contacts. You can also do a
>> Google search on Gasoline Additives or start with the Wikipedia and ask
>> about gasoline and/or gasoline additives. All provide good starter
>> information.
>>
>> AvGas on the other hand is almost devoid of additives other than
>> tetraethyl lead for antiknock. This is why AvGas stores well and MoGas
>> doesn't. All those MoGas additives are volatile and will evaporate out
>> of MoGas surprisingly quickly.
>>
>> Certainly there are no insidious reasons for the oil companies to hide
>> what goes in their gas. It's just that most folks wouldn't know what
>> 2,4-dimethyl-6-tert-butylphenol or methylcyclopentadienyl manganese
>> tricarbonyl are or what they do in any case.
>>
>> Just some thoughts from a fellow who has been in "da o'l bidness" (as
>> they used to say in Louisiana) for 30+ years.
>>
>> Check six,
>> Bob Borger
>> Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
>> http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
>> (95% done 95% to go) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module
>> installed, pitch system in, landing gear complete, rudder system in with
>> Singleton Mod, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in,
>> wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, baggage bay in. Fuel
>> system complete. Rotax and Airmaster installed. Mods 62, 66, 70 & 72
>> done. Completed the instrument panel install. Europa interior kit
>> being installed. Installed windows. Working in - 25 Electrical, 28
>> Flaps, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing.
>> Mostly finishing these days.
>> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
>> Corinth, TX 76208
>> Home: 940-497-2123
>> Cel: 817-992-1117
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 30, 2008, at 17:47, Graham Singleton wrote:
>>
>>> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com
>>> >
>>>
>>> I tend to blame the oil companies for putting all sorts of stuff in the
>>> fuel without a word to anyone.
>>> Could be wrong I suppose
>>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Mogas storage |
In a message dated 5/1/2008 3:02:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list@matronics.com writes:
Just some thoughts from a fellow who has been in "da o'l bidness" (as
they used to say in Louisiana) for 30+ years.
Hello Bob,
I spoke with an Amoco rep last fall about ethanol in their mogas.
Apparently, it's not yet mandatory everywhere in Tennessee, but is coming very
soon.
They are apparently adding ethanol in the metro areas first. I was alble to
find some out here in the sticks without ethanol. So, I tanked up and now have
600 gallons of Amoco 93 (ethanol free) in the ground in my storage tanks.
I asked about storage and was told by this rep that mogas, specifically
Amoco 93, if kept temperature stable, i.e., in ground, will keep for 2+ years.
Is
there any truth to that or was he just trying to sell gas? We used a blend of
Amoco 93 and 100LL in our tow planes for years and never had any storage
issues, but that could be more related to the 100LL than the 93UL.
On another note, I made reservations yesterday at the lodge at Rough River
for September 6th. If the chain don't break and the creek don't rise, N245E
and I will be there.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Currently down for cowl work.
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Mogas storage |
Hi Jon,
I think those 600 gallons will be OK in underground storage. The storage problems
with MoGas occur when you try to keep it in a gas can (or vehicle gas tank)
at ambient temperatures. It would be interesting to be able to monitor any
changes in that 600 gallons over time as the level goes down, surface area changes
and overlying air volume increases. But that's probably beyond the capability
of any lab outside a refinery or oil company research facility.
Looks like I will miss Rough River again this year. We finally scheduled the Alaska
cruise I have been promising my wife for about 25 years. Of course, with
odds of 52:1 against, it ended up being scheduled over the same weekend as Rough
River.
Y'all have fun and post lots of pics.
Bob Borger
On Thursday, May 01, 2008, at 07:23AM, <TELEDYNMCS@aol.com> wrote:
>In a message dated 5/1/2008 3:02:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>europa-list@matronics.com writes:
>
>Just some thoughts from a fellow who has been in "da o'l bidness" (as
>they used to say in Louisiana) for 30+ years.
>
>
>Hello Bob,
>
>I spoke with an Amoco rep last fall about ethanol in their mogas.
>Apparently, it's not yet mandatory everywhere in Tennessee, but is coming very
soon.
>They are apparently adding ethanol in the metro areas first. I was alble to
>find some out here in the sticks without ethanol. So, I tanked up and now have
>600 gallons of Amoco 93 (ethanol free) in the ground in my storage tanks.
>
>I asked about storage and was told by this rep that mogas, specifically
>Amoco 93, if kept temperature stable, i.e., in ground, will keep for 2+ years.
Is
>there any truth to that or was he just trying to sell gas? We used a blend of
> Amoco 93 and 100LL in our tow planes for years and never had any storage
>issues, but that could be more related to the 100LL than the 93UL.
>
>On another note, I made reservations yesterday at the lodge at Rough River
>for September 6th. If the chain don't break and the creek don't rise, N245E
>and I will be there.
>
>Regards,
>
>John Lawton
>Whitwell, TN (TN89)
>N245E - Currently down for cowl work.
>
>
>**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
>listings at AOL Autos.
>(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
>
Message 8
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Bob,
I am no wiser than you (probably less) but at a Rotax maintenance course
held in Norway recently, the expert recommended strongly against any "smart"
additives to oil or fuel. Check out the recent information from Rotax on
recommended oil to use when running on AvGas, one of which is the one they
just have developed together with Shell. Changing the oil at 25 hour
intervals when running on AvGas is a very safe approach. Also check
maintenance instructions on the slipper clutch inspection intervals.
What the expert emphasisized on several issues was that even though nobody
had experienced anything negative with this or that deviation from Rotax'
recommendations, the long term effects or certain operational conditions
might bring it to the surface.
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
> Personally, I will only be using AvGas in my Rotax once it is running.
> Two reasons. #1 Alcohol in MoGas, I won't run it in my Rotax. #2
> Difficulty obtaining MoGas at or near airports across the US, better to
> stick with one type and not worry about it. I do plan to use Decalin TCP
> & Marvel Mystery Oil as additives in my AvGas and will change the oil at
> 25 hour intervals.
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
I remember Nigel Charles who refered some years ago to the augmentation
of the fuel capacity in the tank. In the beginning I toppled at 68
litres and now after 120 hours at 70 litres. Where will it end?
Karel Vranken.
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Heindl
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:37 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
When I inspected my tank a couple of years ago I noticed that the back
wall had buckled inward, probably reducing its capacity somewhat. This
may well have happened on other Europas, but unless you have a large
opening at the top you would never see it. I have an opening for the
fuel level probe,
which allows me to get my whole arm into the tank. I was considering
constructing some sort of internal framing, but couldn't come up with a
good solution.
Karl
<html><div></div>
>
>
> So, what you're saying is that the tank "grows" as it swells and
will do
> so inwardly if not allowed to, outwardly. Hmmmm, that's something I
> hadn't considered. I'll have to rethink my solution. Thanks for the
> information, Svein. Please keep us up to speed on any additional
> information you should get...
>
> Jeff - Baby Blue
>
> Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
> > <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
> >
> > All,
> >
> > Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
prevent
> > it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which case
the
> > strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
> > withdrawal/installation).
> >
> > The inherent problem with high density polyetylene (HDPE) without
any
> > barrier layer (which automobile tanks have, and the newer Europa
tanks
> > may have - this is now being looked into) is that it is permeable
and
> > components of the fuel get into the material and causes it to
swell (and
> > some gets through the tak walls and gives the typical "Europa
smell").
> > Where the material is thick, as in the edges between the bottom
and
> > sides, sides and top, and sides to sides, the swelling is
apparently
> > negligible. This swelling cannot be stopped as such, so if the
tank is
> > prevented from buckling forward at all, it will bulge only
inwards.
> > This will probably not be one single large bulge in each panel,
but
> > smaller "wrinkles" that another contributor reported yesterday
from his
> > findings along the top and the back (where outward bulging is
restricted).
> >
> > The best, given this undesired but unavoidable swelling, would be
if the
> > tank were of a simpler shape (say like a box without indentations
and
> > the saddle) and if we had no spacers to keep it away from the
controls.
> > Typical hard points as the saddle and the outlets at the bottom
appears
> > to be where cracks are developing in some cases. Even though the
fuel
> > components entering the permeable material also acts like
softeners,
> > local faults in the material may cause overstressing (e.g. thinner
than
> > intended material due to the fabrication process; maybe
insufficient
> > heating during the moulding).
> >
> > The spacers installed according to the Builders Manual could be
typical
> > danger areas as far as cracks. However, both on Arnold's tank and
mine
> > (which shows far less bulging - yet), the wave form of the bulging
> > across the width of the tank is such that there is an inward bulge
right
> > behind the spacers and a forward bulge on either side. It is easy
to
> > envisage the stress that would be introuced if a spacer were
installed
> > where the tank naturally wants to bulge forward.
> >
> > So, based on what I have observed and learned about the tank
material in
> > these last few days, I would carefully evaluate where to stop the
tank's
> > bulging. Newer tanks have a stiff rib or indentation running
across the
> > front, which should help (one such installation will be inspected
> > shortly by another owner).
> >
> > As for those still in the appropriate build stage, I would shape
the BM
> > spacers differently: Build the plate of thicker material, oval
instead
> > of rectangular (with long axis horizontal) and shape its thickness
> > markedly convex (thich in the center, thinning towards a well
rounded
> > circumference).
> >
> > I am in contact with a polymer expert at a central Norwegian
scientific
> > institute. His immediate comment is that HDPE does not "dry out"
if the
> > tank is left empty, but I am awaiting his further comments to a
host of
> > follow-up questions with relevance to our particular tanks and how
we
> > operate our airplanes. Temperature definitely plays a part in the
> > swelling. The hotter, the faster it swells, but I am still
awaiting to
> > hear from him whether HDPE swell more (higher maximum swell
elongation)
> > in hot weather than in cold. He also mentioned that the particular
fuel
> > used may play a role. When a major fuel supplier here introduced
> > unleaded 98 octane mogas several years ago, it was found to
"attack"
> > polymers more aggressively than the previously used auto fuel did
(we
> > use unleaded 95 octane mogas in our Europas here in Norway).
> >
> > What I really hate about this issue is not knowing whether I have
spent
> > 10% or 90% of my tank's safety margin with the present bulging,
and what
> > does say 5mm more bulging translate into as far as approaching a
crack
> > somewhere?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Svein
> > LN-SKJ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =====================
>
========================>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
All,
Some further comments from my acquaintance at the scientific institute:
- A warm tank will swell more than a cold one. When exposing HDPE (high
density polyester) to gasoline, the swelling will continue until the
concentration of gasoline absorbed in the material is in equilibrium with
the gasoline outside it. Then the swelling stops. The equilibrium is
temperature dependent, i.e. higher temperature leads to higher absorbtion of
gasoline and hence more swelling.
- Also the chemical resistance of HDPE is temperature dependent. A typical
HDPE commonly used in gasoline cans is classed as "resistant" to high octane
gasoline at 20C (68F), while at a temperature of 60C (140F) it is classed
"not resistant".
- If the gasoline concentration (liquid or gas form) in the tank is reduced
to zero, then the gasoline will diffuse from the polymer and into the tank
atmosphere. In the ideal material, the swelling might then go back to zero,
but not in reality. If the concentration of gasoline in the tank (liquid or
gas form) is not reduced, the gasoline absorbed in the polymer will not
diffuse out, and the tank walls will remain swelled.
- His view is that it does not really matter whether our tanks are kept
topped up or not after each flight, or drained completely for long idle
period. Saturated gasoline fume in the tank over the liquid surface keeps
the swelling at the same stage as when the walls were washed with gasoline.
- So how come some have got cracks? The absorbtion of gasoline causes
swelling. This type of swelling can be compared to stretching of metal - if
stretched too much, the metal breaks. Same thing with HDPE that swells -
swells too much, it breaks. If local hard buckles develop for some reason,
this may overstress the material before it otherwise would. This is
independent of the softening effect that the gasoline absorption also has on
HDPE. Even though it gets softer, it does not take more stretch. Small
differences in tank wall thickness or other individual factors may be the
reason why some have experienced cracks, while most of us have not.
- Having seen the photo of Arnold's tank, he finds the buckling to be more
than might be expected. If one could measure the length along the most
pronounced buckling wave form from side to side, and compare it to the
original width of the tank, the amount of swelling can be estimated. If
this is less than 3 pct, the material is probably resistant to gasoline
according the European industry norm DIN ISO 175. If the swelling is more
than 8 pct, the material most probably is not suitable as its resistance to
gasoline at the prevailing temperature is limited. If the temperature has
been less than 20C (68F), it is not inconceivable that the material in
Arnold's tank is LDPE (low density polyester), which is not commonly used
for gasoline containers. He emphasiszes that he has not studied Arnold's
tank other than the photo, does not know which material has been used in our
tanks and does not wish to make any derogatory remarks or comments on the
Europa tanks.
///////////
We can all make an easy estimate of the swelling of Arnold's tank, by
forming a paper strip to a similar wave form as his tank's and compare the
end-to-end distance with the flat paper's length. Does not take much
bulging before 8 pct is reached - - - -.
//////////
So where do we go from here? I am sending this in copy to Roger at EA2004,
and encourage him to look into this issue with the aim of:
1. ascertaining what type of material is used in the tanks - older and newer
batches - and how does this compare with industry standards for gasoline
(mogas/avgas) containers. Provide this information to the Europa owners.
This might give us some reassurance that we can continue using the tanks "on
condition".
2. irrespective of the findings under 1, initiate a study to come up with a
replacement tank for those who need one and those who wish to replace
theirs. Check with suppliers of industrial containers, with automobile tank
manufacturers, ask this forum for ideas, present your preliminary findings
for comments by this forum (after all, we are the ones to fly around with
it!), test it thoroughly at extreme conditions, ask a fair price and I
guarantee you that you will sell many. While you are at it, why not
increase the height of the cockpit module to more than make up for the tank
volume lost by having to reduce the tank's width some to get it in (up there
you get lots of extra volume due to the full fore/aft space being
available), which also will give us a better angle for the shoulder belts.
Roger, would you kindly give some feedback on this forum as to what your
plans might be, so that we can rest easy that you will proceed with full
speed and we don't feel like we have to design our own, individual
replacement tanks of aluminium, fancy composites or what not, in order to
continue flying safely over water and across mountains - - - .
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the headrests -
and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of the
tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module - a
very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking however
that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first tank
- the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the system -
but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular expansion
from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
accumulate stress
Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength to
avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we could do
it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars or so
to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about this
but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each to
have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
cheaper -
Gary Leinberger
A237
gleinberger@millersville.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank for
signs of bulging.
Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
Berube. Just need to price it out.
Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
This forum is invaluable!
Hope all's well.
Cheers
Venu
Cell: (512) 771-3286
On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
> Johnsen wrote:
>
>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>> >
>>
>> All,
>>
>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>> withdrawal/installation).
>
> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential bulging
> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
> fall, 2000).
>
> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up) to
> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>
> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior to
> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of the
> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>
> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on the
> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>
> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
> address this insidious problem.
>
> Fred
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Popham Microlight Rally |
Message 13
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage - Correction |
Ref. my earlier posting today. I regret the misprint - HPDE and LPDE of
course are polyethylenes, not polyesters!
Regards,
Svein
Message 14
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
HDPE = High Density PolyEthylene
LDPE = Low Density PolyEthylene
Polyester is an entirely different polymer, (in)famous for its use in those
"leisure suits" of the 1970s.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sidsel & Svein
Johnsen
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 6:58 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
All,
Some further comments from my acquaintance at the scientific institute:
- A warm tank will swell more than a cold one. When exposing HDPE (high
density polyester) to gasoline, the swelling will continue until the
concentration of gasoline absorbed in the material is in equilibrium with
the gasoline outside it. Then the swelling stops. The equilibrium is
temperature dependent, i.e. higher temperature leads to higher absorbtion of
gasoline and hence more swelling.
- Also the chemical resistance of HDPE is temperature dependent. A typical
HDPE commonly used in gasoline cans is classed as "resistant" to high octane
gasoline at 20C (68F), while at a temperature of 60C (140F) it is classed
"not resistant".
- If the gasoline concentration (liquid or gas form) in the tank is reduced
to zero, then the gasoline will diffuse from the polymer and into the tank
atmosphere. In the ideal material, the swelling might then go back to zero,
but not in reality. If the concentration of gasoline in the tank (liquid or
gas form) is not reduced, the gasoline absorbed in the polymer will not
diffuse out, and the tank walls will remain swelled.
- His view is that it does not really matter whether our tanks are kept
topped up or not after each flight, or drained completely for long idle
period. Saturated gasoline fume in the tank over the liquid surface keeps
the swelling at the same stage as when the walls were washed with gasoline.
- So how come some have got cracks? The absorbtion of gasoline causes
swelling. This type of swelling can be compared to stretching of metal - if
stretched too much, the metal breaks. Same thing with HDPE that swells -
swells too much, it breaks. If local hard buckles develop for some reason,
this may overstress the material before it otherwise would. This is
independent of the softening effect that the gasoline absorption also has on
HDPE. Even though it gets softer, it does not take more stretch. Small
differences in tank wall thickness or other individual factors may be the
reason why some have experienced cracks, while most of us have not.
- Having seen the photo of Arnold's tank, he finds the buckling to be more
than might be expected. If one could measure the length along the most
pronounced buckling wave form from side to side, and compare it to the
original width of the tank, the amount of swelling can be estimated. If
this is less than 3 pct, the material is probably resistant to gasoline
according the European industry norm DIN ISO 175. If the swelling is more
than 8 pct, the material most probably is not suitable as its resistance to
gasoline at the prevailing temperature is limited. If the temperature has
been less than 20C (68F), it is not inconceivable that the material in
Arnold's tank is LDPE (low density polyester), which is not commonly used
for gasoline containers. He emphasiszes that he has not studied Arnold's
tank other than the photo, does not know which material has been used in our
tanks and does not wish to make any derogatory remarks or comments on the
Europa tanks.
///////////
We can all make an easy estimate of the swelling of Arnold's tank, by
forming a paper strip to a similar wave form as his tank's and compare the
end-to-end distance with the flat paper's length. Does not take much
bulging before 8 pct is reached - - - -.
//////////
So where do we go from here? I am sending this in copy to Roger at EA2004,
and encourage him to look into this issue with the aim of:
1. ascertaining what type of material is used in the tanks - older and newer
batches - and how does this compare with industry standards for gasoline
(mogas/avgas) containers. Provide this information to the Europa owners.
This might give us some reassurance that we can continue using the tanks "on
condition".
2. irrespective of the findings under 1, initiate a study to come up with a
replacement tank for those who need one and those who wish to replace
theirs. Check with suppliers of industrial containers, with automobile tank
manufacturers, ask this forum for ideas, present your preliminary findings
for comments by this forum (after all, we are the ones to fly around with
it!), test it thoroughly at extreme conditions, ask a fair price and I
guarantee you that you will sell many. While you are at it, why not
increase the height of the cockpit module to more than make up for the tank
volume lost by having to reduce the tank's width some to get it in (up there
you get lots of extra volume due to the full fore/aft space being
available), which also will give us a better angle for the shoulder belts.
Roger, would you kindly give some feedback on this forum as to what your
plans might be, so that we can rest easy that you will proceed with full
speed and we don't feel like we have to design our own, individual
replacement tanks of aluminium, fancy composites or what not, in order to
continue flying safely over water and across mountains - - - .
Regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 15
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| Subject: | Popham Microlight rally |
Message 16
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Hi Gary
Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel running
out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting to
repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.
Count me in.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Leinberger
Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the headrests -
and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of the
tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module - a
very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking however
that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first tank
- the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the system -
but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular expansion
from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
accumulate stress
Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength to
avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we could do
it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars or so
to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about this
but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each to
have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
cheaper -
Gary Leinberger
A237
gleinberger@millersville.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank for
signs of bulging.
Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
Berube. Just need to price it out.
Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
This forum is invaluable!
Hope all's well.
Cheers
Venu
Cell: (512) 771-3286
On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
> Johnsen wrote:
>
>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>> >
>>
>> All,
>>
>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>> withdrawal/installation).
>
> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential bulging
> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
> fall, 2000).
>
> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up) to
> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>
> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior to
> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of the
> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>
> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on the
> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>
> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
> address this insidious problem.
>
> Fred
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>
>
--
Checked by AVG.
18:10
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Microlight Tradefair - POPHAM 3/4 May |
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
I don't think there is anyone of us that wouldn't pay a reasonable
amount to have a future reliable replacement when needed. There are
dang few aircraft out there that can do what the Europa can do on 4.5
GPH. Add that to the incredible handling of this design and you can put
me down for whatever it takes to keep it flying safely.
For you builders questioning your ownership decision from this post...
DON'T! You can't believe what fun is in store for your efforts.
Regards,
Jeff R.
A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 112 hours and enjoying every minute I get to
fly it!!!!
.
On May 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Alan Burrows wrote:
> <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
> running
> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting to
> repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.
> Count me in.
>
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
> Leinberger
> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
>
> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the headrests
> -
> and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
> the
> tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module -
> a
> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
> however
> that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
> tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
> plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first
> tank
> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the system -
> but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
> failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
> expansion
> from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
> firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
> edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
> accumulate stress
>
> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength to
> avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
> from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>
> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we could
> do
> it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars or
> so
> to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about
> this
> but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
> this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
> another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
> maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each to
> have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
> people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
> first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
> cheaper -
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
> for
> signs of bulging.
>
> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>
> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>
> This forum is invaluable!
> Hope all's well.
> Cheers
>
> Venu
>
> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>> Johnsen wrote:
>>
>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>
>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential bulging
>
>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>> fall, 2000).
>>
>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up) to
>
>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>
>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior to
>
>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of the
>
>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>
>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on the
>
>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>
>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>> address this insidious problem.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 18:10
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Jeff - I will be at Rough River - maybe we can between now and then get
some estimates on the cost of a prototype and poll others and then
discuss it at Rough River?
Gary Leinberger
A237
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JEFF
ROBERTS
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
I don't think there is anyone of us that wouldn't pay a reasonable
amount to have a future reliable replacement when needed. There are dang
few aircraft out there that can do what the Europa can do on 4.5 GPH.
Add that to the incredible handling of this design and you can put me
down for whatever it takes to keep it flying safely.
For you builders questioning your ownership decision from this post...
DON'T! You can't believe what fun is in store for your efforts.
Regards,
Jeff R.
A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 112 hours and enjoying every minute I get to
fly it!!!!
.
On May 1, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Alan Burrows wrote:
> <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
> running
> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting
to
> repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.
> Count me in.
>
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
> Leinberger
> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
>
> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the headrests
> -
> and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
> the
> tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module -
> a
> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
> however
> that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
> tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
> plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first
> tank
> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the system
-
> but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
> failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
> expansion
> from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
> firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
> edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
> accumulate stress
>
> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength
to
> avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
> from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>
> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we could
> do
> it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars or
> so
> to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about
> this
> but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
> this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
> another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
> maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each
to
> have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
> people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
> first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
> cheaper -
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
> for
> signs of bulging.
>
> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>
> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>
> This forum is invaluable!
> Hope all's well.
> Cheers
>
> Venu
>
> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
<fklein@orcasonline.com>
>>
>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>> Johnsen wrote:
>>
>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>
>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
bulging
>
>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>> fall, 2000).
>>
>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
to
>
>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>
>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior
to
>
>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of
the
>
>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>
>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
the
>
>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>
>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>> address this insidious problem.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 18:10
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Craig,
It is certainly possible to have your tank fluorinated before installation,
because it is a post-moulding process.
If you look on the web site of a typical rotational moulding company, e.g.
http://tecni-form.com/faqs12.php#12 you can see the answers to a number of
FAQs, such as Q12:
"Is rotational moulding suitable for manufacturing marine plastic gas
tanks?"
"Rotational moulding is actually a very suitable process for the manufacture
of fuel tanks of all types - including those for marine applications. Both
diesel and petrol tanks are commonly manufactured from either LLDPE (linear
low-density polyethylene), or XLPE (cross-linked polyethylene), and for
diesel applications no further processing is required.
"In the case of petrol, post moulding fluorination is used to provide the
barrier properties to meet permeation regulations. However, other materials
may be used, either on their own or in conjunction with polyethylene
(normally as an inner layer) to provide enhanced performance, such as
improved heat resistance or barrier properties."
I sent my early tank back to the company that supplied Europa and it was
fluorinated for about 23GBP (plus return carriage) and returned within a few
days, about seven years ago. I expect any rotational moulding company that
produces petrol tanks would be able to fluorinate yours at a similarly
modest cost, without your having to ship it back to England to the original
manufacturers.
I do not know whether it would be possible to fluorinate a tank in situ.
Regards
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin
Sent: 01 May 2008 10:48
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Where can you get heat sheilding and rocket motors for a europa though
graham??
But on a slightly more serious note, IF the tanks havent been flourine
treated
would it be possible to apply a coating to the inside of the tank before its
installed, or maybe
sprayed into in-situ tanks that havent been filled yet, such as a
vinyl-ester resin which may
atleast slow the whole process down to give the existing tanks a reasonable
service life
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Thursday, 1 May 2008 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Hi Bob
apreciate your thoughtful reply.
I wish they wouldn't put alcohol in though, It isn't good for engines
and it is even worse for the environment, takes too much energy to make
it and it uses up too much food, (imho!)
Simple answer, there are already too many of us on this planet, we need
to start colonising space!
Graham
Robert Borger wrote:
>
> Graham,
According to the Wisconsin State Government, there are over 150
separate chemical in
> gasoline. There are detergents, solvents, oxidents, octane increasers
> and many other things beside C5 - C12 hydrocarbons.
> Certainly there are no insidious reasons for the oil companies to hide
> what goes in their gas. It's just that most folks wouldn't know what
> 2,4-dimethyl-6-tert-butylphenol or methylcyclopentadienyl manganese
> tricarbonyl are or what they do in any case.
> Bob Borger
Checked by AVG.
6:10 PM
Checked by AVG.
6:10 PM
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Count me in for my $100 too!
I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the
$5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those
of us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a
discount off the new tank design.
I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise
the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans
may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter ;-)
Cheers,
Venu Rao
Austin, Texas
Europa mono - A058
Flying-132.5 hours
Builder: James Nelson
On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
wrote:
> >
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
> running
> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting
> to
> repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.
> Count me in.
>
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
> Leinberger
> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
>
> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the
> headrests -
> and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
> the
> tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module
> - a
> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
> however
> that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
> tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
> plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first
> tank
> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the
> system -
> but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
> failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
> expansion
> from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
> firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
> edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
> accumulate stress
>
> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength
> to
> avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
> from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>
> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we
> could do
> it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars
> or so
> to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about
> this
> but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
> this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
> another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
> maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each
> to
> have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
> people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
> first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
> cheaper -
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
> for
> signs of bulging.
>
> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>
> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>
> This forum is invaluable!
> Hope all's well.
> Cheers
>
> Venu
>
> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
>> <fklein@orcasonline.com>
>>
>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>> Johnsen wrote:
>>
>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>
>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
>> bulging
>
>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>> fall, 2000).
>>
>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
>> to
>
>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>
>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior
>> to
>
>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of
>> the
>
>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>
>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
>> the
>
>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>
>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>> address this insidious problem.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 18:10
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Gary,
Count me in.
Check six,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch
system in, landing gear complete, rudder system in with Singleton Mod,
outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing
incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, baggage bay in. Fuel system
complete. Rotax and Airmaster installed. Mods 62, 66, 70 & 72 done.
Completed the instrument panel install. Europa interior kit being
installed. Installed windows. Working in - 25 Electrical, 28 Flaps,
30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing.
Mostly finishing these days.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On May 1, 2008, at 12:02, Gary Leinberger wrote:
> >
>
> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the
> headrests -
> and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
> the
> tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module
> - a
> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
> however
> that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
> tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
> plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first
> tank
> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the
> system -
> but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
> failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
> expansion
> from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
> firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
> edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
> accumulate stress
>
> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength
> to
> avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
> from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>
> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we
> could do
> it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars
> or so
> to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about
> this
> but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
> this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
> another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
> maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each
> to
> have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
> people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
> first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
> cheaper -
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
> for
> signs of bulging.
>
> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>
> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>
> This forum is invaluable!
> Hope all's well.
> Cheers
>
> Venu
>
> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
>> <fklein@orcasonline.com>
>>
>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>> Johnsen wrote:
>>
>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>
>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
>> bulging
>
>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>> fall, 2000).
>>
>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
>> to
>
>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>
>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior
>> to
>
>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of
>> the
>
>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>
>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
>> the
>
>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>
>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>> address this insidious problem.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder
in the existing tank?
Ralph
rk Hallett
Reno, NV
Venu Rao wrote:
>
> Count me in for my $100 too!
>
> I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the
> $5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those
> of us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a
> discount off the new tank design.
>
> I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise
> the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans
> may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter ;-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Venu Rao
> Austin, Texas
> Europa mono - A058
> Flying-132.5 hours
> Builder: James Nelson
>
> On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
> wrote:
>
>> <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
>>
>> Hi Gary
>>
>> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
>> running
>> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting to
>> repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.
>> Count me in.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
>> Leinberger
>> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>>
>> <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
>>
>> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
>> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
>> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the headrests -
>> and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of the
>> tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module - a
>> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
>> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
>> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
>> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking however
>> that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
>> tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
>> plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first tank
>> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the system -
>> but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
>> failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular expansion
>> from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
>> firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
>> edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
>> accumulate stress
>>
>> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
>> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
>> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength to
>> avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
>> from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>>
>> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
>> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
>> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
>> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we could do
>> it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars or so
>> to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about this
>> but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
>> this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
>> another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
>> maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each to
>> have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
>> people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
>> first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
>> cheaper -
>>
>>
>> Gary Leinberger
>> A237
>> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>>
>>
>> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank for
>> signs of bulging.
>>
>> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
>> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>>
>> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>>
>> This forum is invaluable!
>> Hope all's well.
>> Cheers
>>
>> Venu
>>
>> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>>
>> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>>> Johnsen wrote:
>>>
>>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>>
>>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential bulging
>>
>>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>>> fall, 2000).
>>>
>>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up) to
>>
>>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>>
>>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior to
>>
>>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of the
>>
>>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>>
>>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on the
>>
>>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>>
>>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>>> address this insidious problem.
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Checked by AVG.
>> 18:10
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 24
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|
That`s all I need - another concern, albeit dredged from the past. Last time
I convinced myself
That my tank was not one of the ones to be affected. Now I`m torn between
deciding to buy
mogas and store it to allow all those di-methyl whatevers to vapour off and
then board it.
One question begs: What happens to most foams when the liquid fuel
leaks into it?
Cheers, Ferg
PS: It`s time to get a Mac. Every time I call up Word from Bill Gates, he
has added `extra`
Qualities to his changes and every line has an initial capital now. I can't
wait for tomorrow.
Cheers, Ferg
Message 25
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| Subject: | Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Europa-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm
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You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
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Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
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*******************
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Download Via FTP
----------------
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Download Via Web
----------------
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Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
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******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
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Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
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- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
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- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
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| Subject: | Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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