Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:01 AM - Re: Popham Microlight rally (G-IANI)
2. 01:46 AM - Re: Popham Microlight rally (Ivor Phillips)
3. 02:30 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (craig bastin)
4. 02:31 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (craig bastin)
5. 03:50 AM - Test (Steven Pitt)
6. 04:14 AM - Re: William and Paul's flyin (David Watts)
7. 05:51 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Jan de Jong)
8. 06:25 AM - trigear sockets and tie bar (William Daniell)
9. 07:01 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Nigel Graham)
10. 07:10 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Gary Leinberger)
11. 07:12 AM - Re: trigear sockets and tie bar (Gary Leinberger)
12. 07:17 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Jeffrey J Paris)
13. 07:40 AM - Re: trigear sockets and tie bar (William Daniell)
14. 07:43 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Gary Leinberger)
15. 08:01 AM - Re: trigear sockets and tie bar (Jeff B)
16. 08:09 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Robert Borger)
17. 08:50 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. ()
18. 09:04 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Nigel Graham)
19. 10:19 AM - Re: Ah, well.... (Tom Friedland)
20. 11:05 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Paul Boulet)
21. 11:18 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (William Daniell)
22. 12:44 PM - Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Fred Klein)
23. 01:27 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (craig bastin)
24. 04:50 PM - Comm Antenna (h&jeuropa)
25. 07:30 PM - Re: Comm Antenna (Paul McAllister)
26. 10:48 PM - Re: Comm Antenna (craig bastin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Popham Microlight rally |
Steve
You seem to be sending out blank e-mails. This is the second to arrive
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven Pitt
Sent: 01 May 2008 19:59
Subject: Europa-List: Popham Microlight rally
Message 2
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| Subject: | Popham Microlight rally |
I believe Steve is trying to say that the Popham microlight rally has
been rescheduled
http://www.popham-airfield.co.uk/News.htm
Ivor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI
Sent: 02 May 2008 08:55
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Popham Microlight rally
Steve
You seem to be sending out blank e-mails. This is the second to arrive
Ian
-----Original Message-----
Message 3
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Thanks mike, I actually spoke to roger at Europa last night, when i was
ordering some bits off him
and asked him about the flourine treatment, and his response was that my kit
#577 had a treated tank
as original, so i guess, I have nothing to worry about or anyone who came
after 577.
Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you HAVE a
prototype, If you can "Borrow"
one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat panels, two
with curves it would be easy to copy
in a light sheet alloy or stainless. I would be happy to loan my tank other
than its installed already, I am sure
others would.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Gregory
Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Craig,
It is certainly possible to have your tank fluorinated before installation,
because it is a post-moulding process.
If you look on the web site of a typical rotational moulding company, e.g.
http://tecni-form.com/faqs12.php#12 you can see the answers to a number of
FAQs, such as Q12:
"Is rotational moulding suitable for manufacturing marine plastic gas
tanks?"
"Rotational moulding is actually a very suitable process for the manufacture
of fuel tanks of all types - including those for marine applications. Both
diesel and petrol tanks are commonly manufactured from either LLDPE (linear
low-density polyethylene), or XLPE (cross-linked polyethylene), and for
diesel applications no further processing is required.
"In the case of petrol, post moulding fluorination is used to provide the
barrier properties to meet permeation regulations. However, other materials
may be used, either on their own or in conjunction with polyethylene
(normally as an inner layer) to provide enhanced performance, such as
improved heat resistance or barrier properties."
I sent my early tank back to the company that supplied Europa and it was
fluorinated for about 23GBP (plus return carriage) and returned within a few
days, about seven years ago. I expect any rotational moulding company that
produces petrol tanks would be able to fluorinate yours at a similarly
modest cost, without your having to ship it back to England to the original
manufacturers.
I do not know whether it would be possible to fluorinate a tank in situ.
Regards
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin
Sent: 01 May 2008 10:48
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Where can you get heat sheilding and rocket motors for a europa though
graham??
But on a slightly more serious note, IF the tanks havent been flourine
treated
would it be possible to apply a coating to the inside of the tank before its
installed, or maybe
sprayed into in-situ tanks that havent been filled yet, such as a
vinyl-ester resin which may
atleast slow the whole process down to give the existing tanks a reasonable
service life
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Thursday, 1 May 2008 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Hi Bob
apreciate your thoughtful reply.
I wish they wouldn't put alcohol in though, It isn't good for engines
and it is even worse for the environment, takes too much energy to make
it and it uses up too much food, (imho!)
Simple answer, there are already too many of us on this planet, we need
to start colonising space!
Graham
Robert Borger wrote:
>
> Graham,
According to the Wisconsin State Government, there are over 150
separate chemical in
> gasoline. There are detergents, solvents, oxidents, octane increasers
> and many other things beside C5 - C12 hydrocarbons.
> Certainly there are no insidious reasons for the oil companies to hide
> what goes in their gas. It's just that most folks wouldn't know what
> 2,4-dimethyl-6-tert-butylphenol or methylcyclopentadienyl manganese
> tricarbonyl are or what they do in any case.
> Bob Borger
Checked by AVG.
6:10 PM
Checked by AVG.
6:10 PM
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Message 4
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you HAVE a
prototype, If you can "Borrow"
one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat panels, two
with curves it would be easy to copy
in a light sheet alloy or stainless. I would be happy to loan my tank other
than its installed already, I am sure
others would.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Venu Rao
Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Count me in for my $100 too!
I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the
$5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those
of us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a
discount off the new tank design.
I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise
the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans
may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter ;-)
Cheers,
Venu Rao
Austin, Texas
Europa mono - A058
Flying-132.5 hours
Builder: James Nelson
On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
wrote:
<alan@kestrel-insurance.com
> >
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
> running
> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting
> to
> repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.
> Count me in.
>
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
> Leinberger
> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
>
> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the
> headrests -
> and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
> the
> tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module
> - a
> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
> however
> that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
> tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
> plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first
> tank
> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the
> system -
> but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
> failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
> expansion
> from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
> firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
> edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
> accumulate stress
>
> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength
> to
> avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
> from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>
> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we
> could do
> it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars
> or so
> to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about
> this
> but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
> this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
> another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
> maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each
> to
> have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
> people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
> first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
> cheaper -
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
> for
> signs of bulging.
>
> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>
> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>
> This forum is invaluable!
> Hope all's well.
> Cheers
>
> Venu
>
> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
>> <fklein@orcasonline.com>
>>
>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>> Johnsen wrote:
>>
>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>
>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
>> bulging
>
>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>> fall, 2000).
>>
>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
>> to
>
>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>
>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior
>> to
>
>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of
>> the
>
>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>
>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
>> the
>
>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>
>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>> address this insidious problem.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 18:10
>
>
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Message 5
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: William and Paul's flyin |
Hi David,
it looks like Marion and myself can come on Monday.
We couldn't make last weekend as we were away in Prague.
David Watts
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
My tank has not been fitted yet. I think I will fit it, carefully,
making sure it was fluorinated first. I may have it fluorinated again.
It seems to me that the bracketing according to the manual may be too
rigid around the tunnel, especially if the brackets get bonded to the
tank. I understand local swelling differences up to 5% or so should be
accommodated without inducing the tank to tear.
I am playing with the idea of applying wool felt to all bracket surfaces
restraining vertical and sideways movement, also avoiding bonding
between the other bracket surfaces with the tank.
The process would be something like:
1. lay up brackets (3 plies) on tank - one face felt, other face bare;
no bonding to tank; experiment to achieve good felt-bracket interface -
felt may need an impermeable layer of something first..
2. install tank by bonding brackets to cockpit (araldite 420)
3. scuff sand and finish brackets (2 x 3 plies, 1 x 1 ply)
I am also playing with the idea of having part of the weight born by the
fuselage shell (as Ron's foam does I believe). That could be fitted when
the cockpit is bonded to the canoe.
As mentioned the aileron drive protection could also be made somewhat
larger.
Comments?
Jan de Jong
#461
Message 8
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| Subject: | trigear sockets and tie bar |
Following on from the trigear sockets issue.
The manual tells you to put the trigear sockets in before the rear wing
socket/tie bar. Is there a photo of a completed trigear with the tie bar in
place on the forum so I can see how it all fits together? Alternatively can
someone send me a pic.
Many thanks
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 19:36
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge
In re: Tri-Gear main sockets
One cusses for several hours and hopes the neighbors do not complain about
the foul language. This was where I decided that the factory considered the
Tri-Gear to be the ugly step child in the family.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
Checked by AVG.
09:39
Message 9
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Craig,
I have been watching this thread develop with interest.
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I was not happy with the
plastic tank. The theory was great - but the execution left a lot to be
desired.
To cut a long story sideways, I did make a magnesium alloy tank, and used
the opportunity to increase the volume, and include solid state liquid level
sensors in addition to the capacitance fuel probe, proper filters and AN
fittings for alloy fuel pipes.
Don't be under any illusions over how long this will take. All in all this
set me back about 18 months of careful planning, pattern making and cutting.
All edges were flanged and riveted to hold everything in precise place prior
to welding. The conical fuselage section requires some interesting
developments that are nowhere near a simple as they look.
Admittedly, mine is more complex than you will most likely need, as I
extended up into the headrests to increase volume (on the C of G).
FYI take a look at the attached document I provided to our PFA to secure
approval. It gives you a good idea of what the finished alloy tank might
look like. Hopefully you can get a neater welder :-(
My tank looked wonderful before welding. I could have cried when I received
back the crumpled results.
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of craig bastin
Sent: 02 May 2008 10:30
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you HAVE a
prototype, If you can "Borrow"
one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat panels, two
with curves it would be easy to copy
in a light sheet alloy or stainless. I would be happy to loan my tank other
than its installed already, I am sure
others would.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Venu Rao
Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Count me in for my $100 too!
I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the
$5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those
of us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a
discount off the new tank design.
I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise
the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans
may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter ;-)
Cheers,
Venu Rao
Austin, Texas
Europa mono - A058
Flying-132.5 hours
Builder: James Nelson
On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
wrote:
<alan@kestrel-insurance.com
> >
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
> running
> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting
> to
> repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.
> Count me in.
>
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
> Leinberger
> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
>
> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the
> headrests -
> and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
> the
> tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module
> - a
> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
> however
> that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
> tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
> plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first
> tank
> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the
> system -
> but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
> failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
> expansion
> from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
> firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
> edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
> accumulate stress
>
> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength
> to
> avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
> from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>
> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we
> could do
> it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars
> or so
> to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about
> this
> but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
> this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
> another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
> maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each
> to
> have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
> people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
> first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
> cheaper -
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
> for
> signs of bulging.
>
> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>
> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>
> This forum is invaluable!
> Hope all's well.
> Cheers
>
> Venu
>
> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
>> <fklein@orcasonline.com>
>>
>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>> Johnsen wrote:
>>
>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>
>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
>> bulging
>
>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>> fall, 2000).
>>
>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
>> to
>
>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>
>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior
>> to
>
>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of
>> the
>
>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>
>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
>> the
>
>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>
>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>> address this insidious problem.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 18:10
>
>
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
That was my thought - I have kept my old tank to use as a way to model
our needs for an aluminum tank - any body have experience in this area?
Any estimates on weight of tank?
Gary Leinberger
A237
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig
bastin
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 5:28 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
--> <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
Thanks mike, I actually spoke to roger at Europa last night, when i was
ordering some bits off him and asked him about the flourine treatment,
and his response was that my kit
#577 had a treated tank
as original, so i guess, I have nothing to worry about or anyone who
came after 577.
Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you
HAVE a prototype, If you can "Borrow"
one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat panels,
two with curves it would be easy to copy in a light sheet alloy or
stainless. I would be happy to loan my tank other than its installed
already, I am sure others would.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Gregory
Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 9:47 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
--> <m.j.gregory@talk21.com>
Craig,
It is certainly possible to have your tank fluorinated before
installation, because it is a post-moulding process.
If you look on the web site of a typical rotational moulding company,
e.g.
http://tecni-form.com/faqs12.php#12 you can see the answers to a number
of FAQs, such as Q12:
"Is rotational moulding suitable for manufacturing marine plastic gas
tanks?"
"Rotational moulding is actually a very suitable process for the
manufacture of fuel tanks of all types - including those for marine
applications. Both diesel and petrol tanks are commonly manufactured
from either LLDPE (linear low-density polyethylene), or XLPE
(cross-linked polyethylene), and for diesel applications no further
processing is required.
"In the case of petrol, post moulding fluorination is used to provide
the barrier properties to meet permeation regulations. However, other
materials may be used, either on their own or in conjunction with
polyethylene (normally as an inner layer) to provide enhanced
performance, such as improved heat resistance or barrier properties."
I sent my early tank back to the company that supplied Europa and it was
fluorinated for about 23GBP (plus return carriage) and returned within a
few days, about seven years ago. I expect any rotational moulding
company that produces petrol tanks would be able to fluorinate yours at
a similarly modest cost, without your having to ship it back to England
to the original manufacturers.
I do not know whether it would be possible to fluorinate a tank in situ.
Regards
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig
bastin
Sent: 01 May 2008 10:48
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
--> <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
Where can you get heat sheilding and rocket motors for a europa though
graham??
But on a slightly more serious note, IF the tanks havent been flourine
treated would it be possible to apply a coating to the inside of the
tank before its installed, or maybe sprayed into in-situ tanks that
havent been filled yet, such as a vinyl-ester resin which may atleast
slow the whole process down to give the existing tanks a reasonable
service life
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Thursday, 1 May 2008 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Hi Bob
apreciate your thoughtful reply.
I wish they wouldn't put alcohol in though, It isn't good for engines
and it is even worse for the environment, takes too much energy to make
it and it uses up too much food, (imho!) Simple answer, there are
already too many of us on this planet, we need to start colonising
space!
Graham
Robert Borger wrote:
>
> Graham,
According to the Wisconsin State Government, there are over 150
separate chemical in
> gasoline. There are detergents, solvents, oxidents, octane increasers
> and many other things beside C5 - C12 hydrocarbons.
> Certainly there are no insidious reasons for the oil companies to hide
> what goes in their gas. It's just that most folks wouldn't know what
> 2,4-dimethyl-6-tert-butylphenol or methylcyclopentadienyl manganese
> tricarbonyl are or what they do in any case.
> Bob Borger
Checked by AVG.
6:10 PM
Checked by AVG.
6:10 PM
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Message 11
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| Subject: | trigear sockets and tie bar |
This may be a stupid question (duh) - but the socket goes completely
inside the canoe? That is, you don't push it through the hole from the
outside so the metal plate is on the outside skin?
Gary Leinberger
A237
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Daniell
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:23 AM
Subject: Europa-List: trigear sockets and tie bar
Following on from the trigear sockets issue.
The manual tells you to put the trigear sockets in before the rear wing
socket/tie bar. Is there a photo of a completed trigear with the tie
bar in place on the forum so I can see how it all fits together?
Alternatively can someone send me a pic.
Many thanks
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 19:36
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge
In re: Tri-Gear main sockets
One cusses for several hours and hopes the neighbors do not complain
about the foul language. This was where I decided that the factory
considered the Tri-Gear to be the ugly step child in the family.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
Checked by AVG.
27-Apr-08 09:39
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Dear Europa List,
I have been keenly reading about this tank problem. I picked up Kit#A012 a year
ago aka a monowheel classic from a man who bought the kit in 1996 and didn't
get very far. It just so happens that I was in the middle of "soaking" my tank
in fuel to get it to swell before I mount it in the cockpit module. All I
can say is good timing and I'm all ears at this point in time to see what is the
best course of action to stop thje "battle of the bulge."
Would this be a possibility? I was researching an epoxy based fuel tank liner
kit that you mix and slosh around the inside of your tank, in addition to supporting
the tank as evenly and thoroughly as possible. My line of reasoning is
that maybe it would be a first line of defense from the solvents that "soften"
the HDPE. My only concern is the possibility of this liner material might flake
off because of the "plastic" nature of the tank. Tghe vendor of this epoxy
suggest that you fill the tank with dry wall screws and shake the hell out
of the tank to key up the inside of the tank for the epoxy coating. I'd be interested
to see what ideas in terms of BRAINSTORMING this challenge might illicit.
Cheers,
Jeff Paris #A012 700 hours into build
Europa Classic Monowheel
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
Message 13
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| Subject: | trigear sockets and tie bar |
Gary
the plate on the socket sits outside the canoe with the tube inside, but I
am on to the next step which is wing set up and specifically the rear socket
and tie bar assembly. My concern was, having put in the ribs to the main
gear and done all the lay ups etc how do you make space for the tie bar
/gusset plate assembly. I got some nice pics from Ivor to show me how.
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Leinberger
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 09:10
Subject: RE: Europa-List: trigear sockets and tie bar
This may be a stupid question (duh) - but the socket goes completely inside
the canoe? That is, you don't push it through the hole from the outside so
the metal plate is on the outside skin?
Gary Leinberger
A237
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:23 AM
Subject: Europa-List: trigear sockets and tie bar
Following on from the trigear sockets issue.
The manual tells you to put the trigear sockets in before the rear wing
socket/tie bar. Is there a photo of a completed trigear with the tie bar in
place on the forum so I can see how it all fits together? Alternatively can
someone send me a pic.
Many thanks
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 19:36
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge
In re: Tri-Gear main sockets
One cusses for several hours and hopes the neighbors do not complain about
the foul language. This was where I decided that the factory considered the
Tri-Gear to be the ugly step child in the family.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
Checked by AVG.
27-Apr-08 09:39
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Europa-List
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Checked by AVG.
09:39
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Nigel - this is beautiful - what is the cost of building another one? Do
you have more detailed plans?
Gary Leinberger
A237
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel
Graham
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Craig,
I have been watching this thread develop with interest.
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I was not happy with the
plastic tank. The theory was great - but the execution left a lot to be
desired.
To cut a long story sideways, I did make a magnesium alloy tank, and
used the opportunity to increase the volume, and include solid state
liquid level sensors in addition to the capacitance fuel probe, proper
filters and AN fittings for alloy fuel pipes.
Don't be under any illusions over how long this will take. All in all
this set me back about 18 months of careful planning, pattern making and
cutting.
All edges were flanged and riveted to hold everything in precise place
prior to welding. The conical fuselage section requires some interesting
developments that are nowhere near a simple as they look.
Admittedly, mine is more complex than you will most likely need, as I
extended up into the headrests to increase volume (on the C of G).
FYI take a look at the attached document I provided to our PFA to secure
approval. It gives you a good idea of what the finished alloy tank might
look like. Hopefully you can get a neater welder :-( My tank looked
wonderful before welding. I could have cried when I received back the
crumpled results.
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of craig bastin
Sent: 02 May 2008 10:30
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
--> <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you
HAVE a prototype, If you can "Borrow"
one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat panels,
two with curves it would be easy to copy in a light sheet alloy or
stainless. I would be happy to loan my tank other than its installed
already, I am sure others would.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Venu Rao
Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Count me in for my $100 too!
I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the
$5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those of
us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a discount
off the new tank design.
I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise
the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans
may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter ;-)
Cheers,
Venu Rao
Austin, Texas
Europa mono - A058
Flying-132.5 hours
Builder: James Nelson
On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
wrote:
<alan@kestrel-insurance.com
> >
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
> running out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after
> attempting to repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into
> the pot.
> Count me in.
>
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
> Leinberger
> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
>
> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the headrests
> - and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
> the tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit
> module
> - a
> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
> however that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it
> in too tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it
> works the plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on
> my first tank
> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the system
> - but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if
> it failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
> expansion from temperature changes could do the same - especially if
> the tank is firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on
> the outside edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular
> place to accumulate stress
>
> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength
> to avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I
> got from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>
> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we could
> do it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars
> or so to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried
> about this but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be
> enough to do this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and
> shipping is another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for
> the tank - and maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of
> insurance each to have a better fix available worth it? I think so -
> any feedback from people that know something about the cost of
> prototyping - I know the first one is always expensive - but the
> second one should be a lot cheaper -
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
> for signs of bulging.
>
> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>
> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>
> This forum is invaluable!
> Hope all's well.
> Cheers
>
> Venu
>
> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
>> <fklein@orcasonline.com>
>>
>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>> Johnsen wrote:
>>
>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>
>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
>> bulging
>
>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>> fall, 2000).
>>
>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
>> to
>
>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>
>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior
>> to
>
>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of
>> the
>
>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>
>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
>> the
>
>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>
>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>> address this insidious problem.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 18:10
>
>
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: trigear sockets and tie bar |
Gary, if that's the case, mine is wrong... :)
Jeff - Baby Blue
Gary Leinberger wrote:
> This may be a stupid question (duh) - but the socket goes completely
> inside the canoe? That is, you don't push it through the hole from the
> outside so the metal plate is on the outside skin?
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *William
> Daniell
> *Sent:* Friday, May 02, 2008 9:23 AM
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Europa-List: trigear sockets and tie bar
>
> Following on from the trigear sockets issue.
>
>
>
> The manual tells you to put the trigear sockets in before the rear wing
> socket/tie bar. Is there a photo of a completed trigear with the tie
> bar in place on the forum so I can see how it all fits together?
> Alternatively can someone send me a pic.
>
>
>
> Many thanks
>
>
>
> Will
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rob Housman
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 19:36
> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge
>
>
>
> In re: Tri-Gear main sockets
>
>
>
> One cusses for several hours and hopes the neighbors do not complain
> about the foul language. This was where I decided that the factory
> considered the Tri-Gear to be the ugly step child in the family.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Rob Housman
>
> Irvine, CA
>
> Europa XS Tri-Gear
>
> A070
>
> Airframe complete
>
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 27-Apr-08 09:39
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Checked by AVG.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Nigel,
WOW! A magnificent piece of work!
Check six,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(95% done 95% to go) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module
installed, pitch system in, landing gear complete, rudder system in
with Singleton Mod, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap
pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, baggage bay
in. Fuel system complete. Rotax and Airmaster installed. Mods 62,
66, 70 & 72 done. Completed the instrument panel install. Europa
interior kit being installed. Installed windows. Working in - 25
Electrical, 28 Flaps, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35
Doors, 37 Finishing. Mostly finishing these days.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On May 2, 2008, at 8:56, Nigel Graham wrote:
> Craig,
>
> I have been watching this thread develop with interest.
> I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I was not happy with the
> plastic tank. The theory was great - but the execution left a lot to
> be
> desired.
>
> To cut a long story sideways, I did make a magnesium alloy tank, and
> used
> the opportunity to increase the volume, and include solid state
> liquid level
> sensors in addition to the capacitance fuel probe, proper filters
> and AN
> fittings for alloy fuel pipes.
>
> Don't be under any illusions over how long this will take. All in
> all this
> set me back about 18 months of careful planning, pattern making and
> cutting.
> All edges were flanged and riveted to hold everything in precise
> place prior
> to welding. The conical fuselage section requires some interesting
> developments that are nowhere near a simple as they look.
> Admittedly, mine is more complex than you will most likely need, as I
> extended up into the headrests to increase volume (on the C of G).
>
> FYI take a look at the attached document I provided to our PFA to
> secure
> approval. It gives you a good idea of what the finished alloy tank
> might
> look like. Hopefully you can get a neater welder :-(
> My tank looked wonderful before welding. I could have cried when I
> received
> back the crumpled results.
>
> Nigel (the other one) Graham
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of craig
> bastin
> Sent: 02 May 2008 10:30
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> >
>
> Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you
> HAVE a
> prototype, If you can "Borrow"
> one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat
> panels, two
> with curves it would be easy to copy
> in a light sheet alloy or stainless. I would be happy to loan my
> tank other
> than its installed already, I am sure
> others would.
>
> craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 10:26 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
>
> Count me in for my $100 too!
>
> I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the
> $5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those
> of us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a
> discount off the new tank design.
>
> I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise
> the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans
> may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter ;-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Venu Rao
> Austin, Texas
> Europa mono - A058
> Flying-132.5 hours
> Builder: James Nelson
>
> On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
> wrote:
>
> <alan@kestrel-insurance.com
>>>
>>
>> Hi Gary
>>
>> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
>> running
>> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting
>> to
>> repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.
>> Count me in.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
>> Leinberger
>> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>>
>> <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
>>
>> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
>> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
>> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the
>> headrests -
>> and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
>> the
>> tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module
>> - a
>> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I
>> see
>> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
>> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
>> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
>> however
>> that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
>> tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
>> plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first
>> tank
>> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the
>> system -
>> but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if
>> it
>> failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
>> expansion
>> from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank
>> is
>> firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
>> edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
>> accumulate stress
>>
>> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf
>> below
>> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
>> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength
>> to
>> avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I
>> got
>> from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>>
>> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
>> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
>> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
>> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we
>> could do
>> it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars
>> or so
>> to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about
>> this
>> but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
>> this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
>> another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank -
>> and
>> maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each
>> to
>> have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
>> people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
>> first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
>> cheaper -
>>
>>
>> Gary Leinberger
>> A237
>> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>>
>>
>> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
>> for
>> signs of bulging.
>>
>> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
>> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>>
>> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>>
>> This forum is invaluable!
>> Hope all's well.
>> Cheers
>>
>> Venu
>>
>> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>>
>> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>>
>>> <fklein@orcasonline.com>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>>> Johnsen wrote:
>>>
>>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>>
>>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
>>> bulging
>>
>>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>>> fall, 2000).
>>>
>>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
>>> to
>>
>>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the
>>> aileron
>>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>>
>>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of
>>> bid
>>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it
>>> is a
>>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior
>>> to
>>
>>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of
>>> the
>>
>>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>>
>>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
>>> the
>>
>>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>>
>>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>>> address this insidious problem.
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Checked by AVG.
>> 18:10
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 5:30 PM
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 5:30 PM
>
>
> <Magnesium Fuel Tank Modification.pdf>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Hi Jan
"As mentioned the aileron drive protection could also be made somewhat
larger. Comments?"
Just a note:
I remember reading years ago a few who had tank bulge and hit aileron
cross tube, just moved the cross tube from aft of arms to forward.
As far as the aft tank supporting brackets, "dang" they are supporting up
to 18 gallons of fuel and weight of tank (over a hundred pounds of
cantilevered weight). Besides the expanding and contracting evil, you have
a severe stress riser here if you follow manual. If my CPM was not bonded
in place, I would not have made all layers of BID end at the same place
but instead taper layer on the tank where first layer if longest and
subsequent layers are shorter. The tunnel bracket is a vulnerable area.
The extra BID I added will not relieve any cantilever loading or
expansion loading in the center, but will distribute load over a larger
area. Distributing loads over a "larger area is a "much more better"
thing. I would rather have my 300 lb passenger wearing flat sole foot
apparel than spike heels which will most likely go right through the floor
of Europa. Foam distributes fuel tank cantilever load (I put Mylar in
there so foam is not bonded to tank and will allow expansion). I mentioned
on the gallery that there was no bulge after foam was applied. I was not
referring to the tank but the bottom of the fuse. The high expansion foam
may very possibly deform it. I think the foam will alleviate a lot of
cantilevered stress on the aft BID brackets.
A note on building a metal tank. First off I have seen at least 1 picture,
perhaps 2 that are existing. First choice is to source to ones who already
developed. If can't have them build one more, pick their brains how they
did it. If you can't find pictures or who has them in hangar I have info.
If that comes to a dead end, an idea:
I have a metal melting machine and several chip making machines (Hobart
TRT 250 TIG, 2 laths and 2 milling machines). I welded up a thin wall
aluminium tank for a Sonerai. I purged inside of tank with argon and it
looked great. There was 1 spot in a corner that had a pit of
contamination, easy to file and re-weld.
Now for plan. Someone get hold of weldable aluminium, remember that when
you weld aluminium it goes to T-0, which means it will be soft as
aluminium a soda can is made from. After it sits depending on the
aluminium used, generally it will get harder perhaps to T-3. I am not an
expert and it has been years since I welded up an alumimium folding
balloon basket, but strength does increase with time. Thus someone find
out what type of aluminium is used in a Sonerai and other welded aeroplane
tanks and buy some. Now design up a nice square cornered 5 gallon
container and cut the pieces. File or sand the edges so were the weld is
going there is a 90 degree bevel. Don't make the bevel (22.5 degrees each
side) to form a sharp edge, but bevel only about 2/3rds of thickness. Make
sure you clean aluminium everywhere and of area to be welded, meticulous
and scotchbright 1" on both sides, then wipe down with degreaser. Now
assemble tank with dabs of JB Weld KWIK (4 minute). Oh yea before
assembly, choose a nice weldable opening and cap. Look at aeroplane stuff
in Spruce and Wicks and www.mcmaster.com . I will leave this detail to
you. For an air vent, buy a petcock that Spruce (and probably Wicks) sells
where you drill a hole, insert a grommet and then force petcock in place.
My charge will be that after I send the tank around for critique, I get to
keep it.
For a more aggressive first try, and my preference, make an aux tank for
the port side of mono! Same charge applies.
If all is a go, make the real deal. Same charge applies.
I have had great success hacking up old fork lift Worthington propane
cylinders, cutting them in half, extending and beefing up dip tube and
melting them together. All still in service since early 90s. A lot easier
to keep Europas liquid energy contained compared to a balloons liquid
energy.
My charge can be negotiated, if someone delivered bits and pieces and
helped weld thing up (day to 3??), and helped a bit on my build........
Ron Parigoris
Message 18
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Gary,
I just looked back through my records, it seems I spent ?120 ($240 today) on
two sheets of Magnesium alloy (though I only needed one).
I paid the welder ?150 ($300 today).
I had some 3/8" tubing (for the internal breathers) "in stock", and turned
up the fuel hose nozzle, filter housings and all other fittings from stock
material.
The lowest cost was my 18 months labour!!!
I don't have anything as sophisticated as "plans" though I do have a
cupboard full of carefully cut and numbered cardboard templates.
Nigel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
Leinberger
Sent: 02 May 2008 15:41
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
Nigel - this is beautiful - what is the cost of building another one? Do
you have more detailed plans?
Gary Leinberger
A237
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel
Graham
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Craig,
I have been watching this thread develop with interest.
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I was not happy with the
plastic tank. The theory was great - but the execution left a lot to be
desired.
To cut a long story sideways, I did make a magnesium alloy tank, and
used the opportunity to increase the volume, and include solid state
liquid level sensors in addition to the capacitance fuel probe, proper
filters and AN fittings for alloy fuel pipes.
Don't be under any illusions over how long this will take. All in all
this set me back about 18 months of careful planning, pattern making and
cutting.
All edges were flanged and riveted to hold everything in precise place
prior to welding. The conical fuselage section requires some interesting
developments that are nowhere near a simple as they look.
Admittedly, mine is more complex than you will most likely need, as I
extended up into the headrests to increase volume (on the C of G).
FYI take a look at the attached document I provided to our PFA to secure
approval. It gives you a good idea of what the finished alloy tank might
look like. Hopefully you can get a neater welder :-( My tank looked
wonderful before welding. I could have cried when I received back the
crumpled results.
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of craig bastin
Sent: 02 May 2008 10:30
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
--> <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you
HAVE a prototype, If you can "Borrow"
one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat panels,
two with curves it would be easy to copy in a light sheet alloy or
stainless. I would be happy to loan my tank other than its installed
already, I am sure others would.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Venu Rao
Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Count me in for my $100 too!
I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the
$5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those of
us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a discount
off the new tank design.
I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise
the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans
may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter ;-)
Cheers,
Venu Rao
Austin, Texas
Europa mono - A058
Flying-132.5 hours
Builder: James Nelson
On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
wrote:
<alan@kestrel-insurance.com
> >
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
> running out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after
> attempting to repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into
> the pot.
> Count me in.
>
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
> Leinberger
> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
>
> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the headrests
> - and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
> the tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit
> module
> - a
> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
> however that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it
> in too tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it
> works the plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on
> my first tank
> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the system
> - but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if
> it failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
> expansion from temperature changes could do the same - especially if
> the tank is firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on
> the outside edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular
> place to accumulate stress
>
> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength
> to avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I
> got from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>
> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we could
> do it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars
> or so to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried
> about this but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be
> enough to do this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and
> shipping is another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for
> the tank - and maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of
> insurance each to have a better fix available worth it? I think so -
> any feedback from people that know something about the cost of
> prototyping - I know the first one is always expensive - but the
> second one should be a lot cheaper -
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
> for signs of bulging.
>
> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>
> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>
> This forum is invaluable!
> Hope all's well.
> Cheers
>
> Venu
>
> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
>> <fklein@orcasonline.com>
>>
>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>> Johnsen wrote:
>>
>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>
>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
>> bulging
>
>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>> fall, 2000).
>>
>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
>> to
>
>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>
>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior
>> to
>
>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of
>> the
>
>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>
>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
>> the
>
>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>
>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>> address this insidious problem.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 18:10
>
>
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Ah, well.... |
Hi Ferg
How did you determine that your tank had been fluorinated? Is it later than
kit #577? What is your A number? Mine is A079.
TIA Tom
On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 7:28 PM, Fergus Kyle <VE3LVO@rac.ca> wrote:
>
> That`s all I need - another concern, albeit dredged from the past. Last
> time
> I convinced myself
> That my tank was not one of the ones to be affected. Now I`m torn between
> deciding to buy
> mogas and store it to allow all those di-methyl whatevers to vapour off
> and
> then board it.
> One question begs: What happens to most foams when the liquid fuel
> leaks into it?
> Cheers, Ferg
> PS: It`s time to get a Mac. Every time I call up Word from Bill Gates, he
> has added `extra`
> Qualities to his changes and every line has an initial capital now. I
> can't
> wait for tomorrow.
> Cheers, Ferg
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Beautiful tank Nigel. Now if I could just get one without going thru the pain
you went thru....sigh
Paul Boulet, N914PG- Trigear XS with 914 intercooled engine
Malibu, CA
Nigel Graham <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> wrote:
Craig,
I have been watching this thread develop with interest.
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I was not happy with the
plastic tank. The theory was great - but the execution left a lot to be
desired.
To cut a long story sideways, I did make a magnesium alloy tank, and used
the opportunity to increase the volume, and include solid state liquid level
sensors in addition to the capacitance fuel probe, proper filters and AN
fittings for alloy fuel pipes.
Don't be under any illusions over how long this will take. All in all this
set me back about 18 months of careful planning, pattern making and cutting.
All edges were flanged and riveted to hold everything in precise place prior
to welding. The conical fuselage section requires some interesting
developments that are nowhere near a simple as they look.
Admittedly, mine is more complex than you will most likely need, as I
extended up into the headrests to increase volume (on the C of G).
FYI take a look at the attached document I provided to our PFA to secure
approval. It gives you a good idea of what the finished alloy tank might
look like. Hopefully you can get a neater welder :-(
My tank looked wonderful before welding. I could have cried when I received
back the crumpled results.
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of craig bastin
Sent: 02 May 2008 10:30
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you HAVE a
prototype, If you can "Borrow"
one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat panels, two
with curves it would be easy to copy
in a light sheet alloy or stainless. I would be happy to loan my tank other
than its installed already, I am sure
others would.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Venu Rao
Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Count me in for my $100 too!
I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the
$5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those
of us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a
discount off the new tank design.
I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise
the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans
may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter ;-)
Cheers,
Venu Rao
Austin, Texas
Europa mono - A058
Flying-132.5 hours
Builder: James Nelson
On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows
wrote:
> >
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
> running
> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting
> to
> repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.
> Count me in.
>
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
> Leinberger
> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
>
> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the
> headrests -
> and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
> the
> tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module
> - a
> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
> however
> that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
> tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
> plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first
> tank
> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the
> system -
> but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
> failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
> expansion
> from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
> firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
> edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
> accumulate stress
>
> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength
> to
> avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
> from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>
> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we
> could do
> it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars
> or so
> to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about
> this
> but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
> this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
> another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
> maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each
> to
> have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
> people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
> first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
> cheaper -
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
> for
> signs of bulging.
>
> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>
> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>
> This forum is invaluable!
> Hope all's well.
> Cheers
>
> Venu
>
> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>> Johnsen wrote:
>>
>>> --> >>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>
>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
>> bulging
>
>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>> fall, 2000).
>>
>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
>> to
>
>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>
>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior
>> to
>
>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of
>> the
>
>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>
>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
>> the
>
>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>
>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>> address this insidious problem.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 18:10
>
>
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Message 21
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Can anyone tell me the process for putting the top of the CM back on once
you have taken out the old tank and put in the new one? I am assuming that
you cut the top off very carefully and then glass it back. How many
plies/orientation is recommended?
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Boulet
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 13:02
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Beautiful tank Nigel. Now if I could just get one without going thru the
pain you went thru....sigh
Paul Boulet, N914PG- Trigear XS with 914 intercooled engine
Malibu, CA
Nigel Graham <nigel_graham@btconnect.com> wrote:
Craig,
I have been watching this thread develop with interest.
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I was not happy with the
plastic tank. The theory was great - but the execution left a lot to be
desired.
To cut a long story sideways, I did make a magnesium alloy tank, and used
the opportunity to increase the volume, and include solid state liquid level
sensors in addition to the capacitance fuel probe, proper filters and AN
fittings for alloy fuel pipes.
Don't be under any illusions over how long this will take. All in all this
set me back about 18 months of careful planning, pattern making and cutting.
All edges were flanged and riveted to hold everything in precise place prior
to welding. The conical fuselage section requires some interesting
developments that are nowhere near a simple as they look.
Admittedly, mine is more complex than you will most likely need, as I
extended up into the headrests to increase volume (on the C of G).
FYI take a look at the attached document I provided to our PFA to secure
approval. It gives you a good idea of what the finished alloy tank might
look like. Hopefully you can get a neater welder :-(
My tank looked wonderful before welding. I could have cried when I received
back the crumpled results.
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of craig bastin
Sent: 02 May 2008 10:30
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you HAVE a
prototype, If you can "Borrow"
one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat panels, two
with curves it would be easy to copy
in a light sheet alloy or stainless. I would be happy to loan my tank other
than its installed already, I am sure
others would.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Venu Rao
Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Count me in for my $100 too!
I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the
$5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those
of us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a
discount off the new tank design.
I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise
the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans
may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter ;-)
Cheers,
Venu Rao
Austin, Texas
Europa mono - A058
Flying-132.5 hours
Builder: James Nelson
On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows
wrote:
<ALAN@KESTREL-INSURANCE.COM
> >
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
> running
> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting
> to
> repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.
> Count me in.
>
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
> Leinberger
> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
>
> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the
> headrests -
> and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
> the
> tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module
> - a
> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
> however
> that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
> tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
> plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first
> tank
> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the
> system -
> but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
> failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
> expansion
> from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
> firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
> edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
> accumulate stress
>
> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength
> to
> avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
> from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>
> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we
> could do
> it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars
> or so
> to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about
> this
> but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
> this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
> another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
> maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each
> to
> have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
> people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
> first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
> cheaper -
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
> for
> signs of bulging.
>
> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>
> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>
> This forum is invaluable!
> Hope all's well.
> Cheers
>
> Venu
>
> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>> Johnsen wrote:
>>
>>> --> <SIDSEL.SVEIN@OSLO.ONLINE.NO
>>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>
>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
>> bulging
>
>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>> fall, 2000).
>>
>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
>> to
>
>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>
>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior
>> to
>
>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of
>> the
>
>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>
>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
>> the
>
>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>
>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>> address this insidious problem.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 18:10
>
>
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
Checked by AVG.
5:30 PM
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Europa-List
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Checked by AVG.
09:39
Checked by AVG.
09:39
Message 22
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
I've been lookin about for tank scraps from opening of drain holes etc.
w/ the idea of sending a chunk to a lab for analysis re: fluoride
treatment. Though I've a box of misc. cuttings and bits, somehow my
tank scraps got tossed.
If by any chance, someone kept theirs and have a kit number close to
A194 please contact me off list.
Thanks,
Fred
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
thats a great job, few wrinkles from the welding heat but hey it wont effect
the performance, the extra
capacity is good, my measurements indicated that an increase of about 27
litres was possible
but i didnt fill in the tunnel as you have, or included head rests, just
curious, how do you
vent the head rests to allow them to fill fully, I didnt see any holes there
other than the
one for the fuel sender.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Nigel Graham
Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 11:57 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Craig,
I have been watching this thread develop with interest.
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I was not happy with the
plastic tank. The theory was great - but the execution left a lot to be
desired.
To cut a long story sideways, I did make a magnesium alloy tank, and used
the opportunity to increase the volume, and include solid state liquid level
sensors in addition to the capacitance fuel probe, proper filters and AN
fittings for alloy fuel pipes.
Don't be under any illusions over how long this will take. All in all this
set me back about 18 months of careful planning, pattern making and cutting.
All edges were flanged and riveted to hold everything in precise place prior
to welding. The conical fuselage section requires some interesting
developments that are nowhere near a simple as they look.
Admittedly, mine is more complex than you will most likely need, as I
extended up into the headrests to increase volume (on the C of G).
FYI take a look at the attached document I provided to our PFA to secure
approval. It gives you a good idea of what the finished alloy tank might
look like. Hopefully you can get a neater welder :-(
My tank looked wonderful before welding. I could have cried when I received
back the crumpled results.
Nigel (the other one) Graham
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of craig bastin
Sent: 02 May 2008 10:30
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you HAVE a
prototype, If you can "Borrow"
one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat panels, two
with curves it would be easy to copy
in a light sheet alloy or stainless. I would be happy to loan my tank other
than its installed already, I am sure
others would.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Venu Rao
Sent: Friday, 2 May 2008 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Count me in for my $100 too!
I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the
$5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those
of us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a
discount off the new tank design.
I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise
the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans
may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter ;-)
Cheers,
Venu Rao
Austin, Texas
Europa mono - A058
Flying-132.5 hours
Builder: James Nelson
On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
wrote:
<alan@kestrel-insurance.com
> >
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel
> running
> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting
> to
> repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.
> Count me in.
>
> Alan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
> Leinberger
> Sent: 01 May 2008 18:02
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <Gary.Leinberger@millersville.edu>
>
> I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit
> module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in
> fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the
> headrests -
> and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of
> the
> tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module
> - a
> very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see
> it - is that you can't put in the channel or T pieces from the top -
> you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the
> bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank - I was thinking
> however
> that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too
> tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the
> plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first
> tank
> - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the
> system -
> but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it
> failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular
> expansion
> from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is
> firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside
> edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to
> accumulate stress
>
> Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below
> that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic
> slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength
> to
> avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got
> from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -
>
> Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a
> prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we
> could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory
> could do it because of the nannies in the English PFA - but we
> could do
> it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars
> or so
> to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about
> this
> but 50 builders at $100 each - is $5000 - would this be enough to do
> this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is
> another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and
> maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each
> to
> have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from
> people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the
> first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot
> cheaper -
>
>
> Gary Leinberger
> A237
> gleinberger@millersville.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Venu Rao
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:17 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> I'm rather concerned about this too. Going to have a look at my tank
> for
> signs of bulging.
>
> Almost certain I'm converting the mono to a conventional through Bob
> Berube. Just need to price it out.
>
> Do you know if the tank can be replaced easily?
>
> This forum is invaluable!
> Hope all's well.
> Cheers
>
> Venu
>
> Cell: (512) 771-3286
>
> On Apr 30, 2008, at 22:18, Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com> wrote:
>
>> <fklein@orcasonline.com>
>>
>> On Wednesday, Apr 30, 2008, at 13:46 US/Pacific, Sidsel & Svein
>> Johnsen wrote:
>>
>>> --> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no
>>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Preventing the tank from bulging too much forward will of course
>>> prevent it touching any of the controls or the wing spar (in which
>>> case the strap on the left spar might catch on the bulge during
>>> withdrawal/installation).
>>
>> Before getting Svein's thoughtful and informative post (thank you
>> Svein!), I spent some time looking for a solution to potential
>> bulging
>
>> in my tank (which came w/ kit # A194, shipped from the factory in
>> fall, 2000).
>>
>> In order to "contain" the (outward) bulging, I reset my spacers
>> (which have generous curves at the corners of the specified lay up)
>> to
>
>> ensure a gap between tank (dry and never filled w/ anything) of
>> between 1/8" and 1/4" and maintaining 1/4" clearance from the aileron
>> control rod, I was planning to do the following:
>>
>> Insert a piece of 1/8" thick plywood, 6.25" x 34", w/ 1 layer of bid
>> each side between the spacers and the front face of the tank,
>> cushioning the plywood w/ 1/8" thick "sill sealer" (I believe it is a
>> closed cell polypropylene foam available in 6" rolls at any building
>> supply) between the plywood and the forward face of the tank. Prior
>> to
>
>> insertion, I would add a 3/4" x 2" x 34" foam stiffener w/ 2 layers
>> bid on the forward face of the plywood. The plywood would be held in
>> place w/ a 2 ply bid 2" wide tape which laps onto the underside of
>> the
>
>> FG "shelf" (previously installed as per manual). In doing this, my
>> goal would be to resist "bulging" of the forward face of the tank.
>>
>> Having reviewed Svein's post, I will not be doing anything until we
>> have more information, hopefully in answer to Svein's questions on
>> the
>
>> nature of the HDPE used in our tanks.
>>
>> I do appreciate so much the value of this forum as we attempt to
>> address this insidious problem.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
>> MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 18:10
>
>
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Message 24
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I'm having a problem with my comm antenna. It is a common copper tape antenna
with toroids over the coax. Materials and plans came from RST Engineering. Installed
in the rudder per Europa directions and tuned using a SWR bridge.
When I transmit, certain frequencies cause my ACK ELT to transmit. It is located
on the bottom of the fuselage touching the rear bulkhead (under the elevator
torque tube). If I disconnect the cable going to the remote actuator, there
is no problem. (I had this problem previously and added toroids to the four wires
but no change).
Also, when I transmit, certain frequencies cause the magnetometer in my GRT EFIS
to swing heading 20 degrees. The magnetometer is mounted on the port side of
the fuselage essentially on the fuselage parting line and just at the rear of
the D panel bulkhead.
Have others had difficulity with the dipole in the rudder causing problems? Found
a solution? How about using other antennas, like Bob Archer?
Thanks
Jim Butcher
N241BW almost in the air again
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180802#180802
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| Subject: | Re: Comm Antenna |
Hi Jim,
I tossed the GRT supplied harness and used a pair of shielded cables.
I seem to recall that I used a 4 core and a two core. Any how I
grounded one end back to my central ground point, and for each cable I
used a small toroid. I was able to get an addition loop through each
one although it was tight.
My suggestion is that you try the same for your ELT wiring. I know
that you mentioned that you were already using toroids, but try an
extra loop through for each wire, and add a large one over the whole
cable. If that doesn't work, replace the 4 core flat telephone cable
with a 4 core shielded cable.
I have a bunch of toroids left, let me know if you would like me to
toss a few in the mail. BTW, I am using a Bob Archer antenna. It
isn't much better, lots of stuff goes nuts when I transmit.
Cheers, Paul
Message 26
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You might also try twisted pair cable, that too helps reduce crosstalk
between parallel conductors, you can get shielded twisted pair as well, I
had
simmilar effect in one of my cars once, High power AM cb radio with the
aerial
directly in line the the ignition coil, About 50% of the time the CB would
cause the engine to miss fire when you keyed the mike to transmit. I ended
up
turning the coil on its side to stop it happening. Thats why most countries
have minimum separations and crossing at right angle requirements where
phone/data
cables are close to high voltage AC lines.
regards
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul
McAllister
Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Comm Antenna
<paul.the.aviator@gmail.com>
Hi Jim,
I tossed the GRT supplied harness and used a pair of shielded cables.
I seem to recall that I used a 4 core and a two core. Any how I
grounded one end back to my central ground point, and for each cable I
used a small toroid. I was able to get an addition loop through each
one although it was tight.
My suggestion is that you try the same for your ELT wiring. I know
that you mentioned that you were already using toroids, but try an
extra loop through for each wire, and add a large one over the whole
cable. If that doesn't work, replace the 4 core flat telephone cable
with a 4 core shielded cable.
I have a bunch of toroids left, let me know if you would like me to
toss a few in the mail. BTW, I am using a Bob Archer antenna. It
isn't much better, lots of stuff goes nuts when I transmit.
Cheers, Paul
Checked by AVG.
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Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
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