Europa-List Digest Archive

Sat 05/03/08


Total Messages Posted: 24



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:03 AM - SV: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Arnold Kr. Hansen)
     2. 12:55 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Robert C Harrison)
     3. 12:58 AM - Re: Test (Peter Jeffers)
     4. 12:58 AM - Re: trigear sockets and tie bar (Robert C Harrison)
     5. 01:32 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
     6. 02:32 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (craig bastin)
     7. 02:43 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Robert C Harrison)
     8. 04:07 AM - Re: Dipole in the sternpost (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
     9. 05:44 AM - AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (UVTReith)
    10. 06:57 AM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (david miller)
    11. 09:48 AM - William and Paul - Memorial DOTH (David.Corbett)
    12. 12:51 PM - Test (Steven Pitt)
    13. 01:24 PM - Re: Test (Ivor Phillips)
    14. 01:36 PM - Re: Test (Paul Boulet)
    15. 01:47 PM - Re: Test (Robert C Harrison)
    16. 02:44 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (craig bastin)
    17. 02:45 PM - Re: Test (craig bastin)
    18. 03:19 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Fred Klein)
    19. 04:52 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (craig bastin)
    20. 05:03 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (JR Gowing)
    21. 05:27 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Jerry Rehn)
    22. 06:34 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Ralph K. Hallett III)
    23. 06:34 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Venu Rao)
    24. 11:53 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Graham Singleton)
 
 
 


Message 1


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:03:53 AM PST US
    From: "Arnold Kr. Hansen" <arno-k@online.no>
    Subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    Gary Leinberger, Sorry that I have overlooked your questions amongst the great number of comments following my message to the list. My tank was delivered in 2000 and there has been fuel in it since August 2005. Then some comments to your eventual aluminium tank. I have maid some design calculations for a new TIG welded tank made of aluminium which is 70 mm higher than the original. With a stiffener spacing of 135 mm and 250 mm, the minimum thickness required for an internal pressure of 3.5 psi (FAR 23) using a 5052 quality came out at 1.74 mm. So I will use 2 mm. At the present stage the horizontal stiffeners on the forward and aft walls are corrugations and the vertical stiffeners are 3 longitudinal bulkheads. The weight is calculated to 11.3 kilogram. I learned last night that Graham had used magnesium in his tank weighing 7.8 kilogram. I think the density of magnesium is around 1.7 compared to 2.7 for aluminium. I have some experience applying aluminium in high speed crafts, but no experience with magnesium. So I think I will pay the weight penalty and stick to aluminium. The volume with a simplified geometry in the lower part is 83 litres. As soon as I obtain more information about the space available in that area, I intend to increase the volume somewhat. Regards Arnold -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] P=E5 vegne av Gary Leinberger Sendt: 29. april 2008 22:58 Til: europa-list@matronics.com Emne: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. How old is your tank and how long have you had fuel in it? I had to replace mine - it was my fault in the sense that I pressure tested it with too much air pressure and ended up with stress cracks on the outer edges where the wing comes in - but the real problem seems to be it is not a very flexible material and over time I am afraid I will need to replace it again - if I do I guess I will get an aluminium tank welded up - pictures of land Rovers running over the tank may not be the best approach to judging the long term ability of the tank to accept stress - Gary Leinberger A237 _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Arnold Kr. Hansen Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:52 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. Hi, Shortlybefore start of taxiing, it was discovered that fuel was coming out of the fuselage on my Europa XS trigear (LN-ABM), through the access holes below the tank. Draining of the tank was started and the leakage stopped when 20 - 25 litres were remaining in the tank. Two daysbefore I had drained the tank completely since the aircraft had been stationary (in a heated hangar) since 1. july 2006 with app. 35 litres of mogas in the tank. The day of start up I filled 18 litres and checked all hose connections. Started the engine and runned it for 5 minutes to check hose connections to the recently installed oil thermostat. Then filled another 36 litres of mogas and started the engine for the local flight. Removing the wings, it was revealed that the tank front facing the wing spars, had great bulges, bulges inwards and outwards, and the centre one touching the aileron cross tube, see attached picture. I have not yet localized the crack, but I suspect the saddle section just ahead of the fibreglass bracket. To me the in and out shape of the bulges indicate compression stresses due to material expansion (caused by the fuel applied, 95 octane mogas?). And I think the crack is caused by shear stresses just forward of the bracket mentioned. I will appreciate comments and advice. At present I do not trust the material, polyethylene, used in the tank. Has anybody applied metal tanks? Regards Arnold Kr. Hansen Europa XS trigear, Kit No.381


    Message 2


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:55:57 AM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    Hi! Ralf No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion, however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough for Concord. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K. Hallett III Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. <n100rh@sbcglobal.net> In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder in the existing tank? Ralph rk Hallett Reno, NV


    Message 3


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:58:34 AM PST US
    From: Peter Jeffers <pjeffers@talktalk.net>
    Subject: Test
    Hi Steve it depends what you are testing but for your information there is no tet with your e mail again. Pete -----Original Message----- From: "Steven Pitt" <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com> Sent: 02/05/08 11:46 Subject: Europa-List: Test


    Message 4


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:58:35 AM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: trigear sockets and tie bar
    Hi! Gary At the expense of getting an ear bashing... yes the sockets go through the fuselage and cockpit module until the plate is bedded on the underside. Then the fun begins shaping the ply fillets to the socket tube and glassing them into place. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Leinberger Sent: 02 May 2008 15:10 Subject: RE: Europa-List: trigear sockets and tie bar This may be a stupid question (duh) - but the socket goes completely inside the canoe? That is, you don't push it through the hole from the outside so the metal plate is on the outside skin? Gary Leinberger A237 _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Europa-List: trigear sockets and tie bar Following on from the trigear sockets issue. The manual tells you to put the trigear sockets in before the rear wing socket/tie bar. Is there a photo of a completed trigear with the tie bar in place on the forum so I can see how it all fits together? Alternatively can someone send me a pic. Many thanks Will From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 19:36 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge In re: Tri-Gear main sockets One cusses for several hours and hopes the neighbors do not complain about the foul language. This was where I decided that the factory considered the Tri-Gear to be the ugly step child in the family. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete Checked by AVG. 27-Apr-08 09:39 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronh ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 5


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:32:35 AM PST US
    From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    How would you get it into the tank? Duncan McF do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:52 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. > <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> > > Hi! Ralf > No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion, > however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough > for Concord. > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K. > Hallett III > Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. > > <n100rh@sbcglobal.net> > > In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder > > in the existing tank? > > Ralph > rk Hallett > Reno, NV > > >


    Message 6


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:32:09 AM PST US
    From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    Same as they run in most race cars, one problem I can see is that they still havnt worked out the logistics of a fuel sender as far as i am aware, so you would be stuck with the sight glass level I guess, also from what I have seen, you would be basically creating a new tank plus bladder, so wouldnt the alloy tank be simpler and cheaper. Other than that, it would probably be the overall best option, if it is a proper fuel cell, then fuel surge and vapours are virtually eliminated craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert C Harrison Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 5:53 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Ralf No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion, however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough for Concord. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K. Hallett III Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. <n100rh@sbcglobal.net> In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder in the existing tank? Ralph rk Hallett Reno, NV Checked by AVG. 4:34 PM Checked by AVG. 4:34 PM


    Message 7


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:43:07 AM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    Hi! Duncan Obviously there are some challenges, however Getting it in through the oval fuel sender cut out in the tank op wouldn't be a problem. Bob H G-PTAG PS the major problem would be getting acceptance from the LAA ! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan & Ami McFadyean Sent: 03 May 2008 09:29 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> How would you get it into the tank? Duncan McF do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:52 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. > <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> > > Hi! Ralf > No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion, > however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough > for Concord. > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K. > Hallett III > Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. > > <n100rh@sbcglobal.net> > > In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder > > in the existing tank? > > Ralph > rk Hallett > Reno, NV > > >


    Message 8


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 04:07:16 AM PST US
    From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Dipole in the sternpost
    In a message dated 5/3/2008 3:01:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: Have others had difficulity with the dipole in the rudder causing problems? Hi Jim, FWIW, I installed an AAE (available from ACS) dipole COM on the rear my sternpost, forward of the rudder. I installed an AAE transponder antenna, also a dipole, on the right side of the fuselage (inside), about 12 inches in front of the rear bulkhead. Both antennae work beautifully and the only thing I notice is the card compass swings slightly when I key the transmitter. I don't see this effect when the transponder keys. I swept both these antennas individually and with their respective feed lines and the SWR characteristics are flat across their respective bands. Do keep your coax separate from everything else. I ran my coax for the COM and transponder down one side of the fuselage and the rest of the wires down the other side. Avoid placing any other wires near the coax termination's as best you can, as RF leaks sometimes occur at the connectors and can cause problems. Use good quality coax and connectors, IOW, not Radio Shack crap. Amp makes excellent BNC connectors and they are available from Allied, Digikey and many other suppliers. I prefer solder on center pins if you can find them, with crimp on barrels. The clamp on screw type BNC connectors are garbage. Be sure the shield makes good contact with the barrel of the BNC. Spruce has very good RG58 coax that is aircraft rated. I did have to spring for a precision cable for my Garmin transponder to meet Garmin's 1dB cable insertion loss requirements, though. It wasn't cheap, but the performance I'm seeing was worth every penny. I'd be happy to bring my sweep test gear and SWR meter to Rough River if anybody needs something looked at. I have the capacity to sweep anything from 30 Mhz to 3.3 Ghz. I also have a Bird precision watt meter for checking power output at COM and transponder frequencies. Hope it helps! Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Currently down for cowl work **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)


    Message 9


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 05:44:41 AM PST US
    From: "UVTReith" <uvtreith@t-online.de>
    Subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    Hi Craig, Europa Aircraft is offering a fuel sender as MOD 60. There are also a lot of other items they offer. It's always quite good to check their homepages www.europa-aircraft.biz Best Regards, Bruno Reith Europa Aircraft Germany -----Ursprngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von craig bastin Gesendet: Samstag, 3. Mai 2008 11:29 An: europa-list@matronics.com Betreff: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. Same as they run in most race cars, one problem I can see is that they still havnt worked out the logistics of a fuel sender as far as i am aware, so you would be stuck with the sight glass level I guess, also from what I have seen, you would be basically creating a new tank plus bladder, so wouldnt the alloy tank be simpler and cheaper. Other than that, it would probably be the overall best option, if it is a proper fuel cell, then fuel surge and vapours are virtually eliminated craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert C Harrison Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 5:53 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Ralf No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion, however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough for Concord. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K. Hallett III Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. <n100rh@sbcglobal.net> In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder in the existing tank? Ralph rk Hallett Reno, NV Checked by AVG. 4:34 PM Checked by AVG. 4:34 PM


    Message 10


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:57:39 AM PST US
    From: david miller <loboloda@execulink.com>
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than 1%, I would imagine that welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems. Perhaps all that is required is for the factory to beef up the existing design a little , and ensure that the tanks are well flourinated. I checked for fuel smells in the system by attaching a sniffer hose to one side of my carbon filter mask. Made for a good impression of an elephant, but I could not find any trace of a leak. I get a whiff of fuel while flying in turbulent air, seems to be related to the tank venting onto the fuselage, but I can't figure how it then finds its way into the cabin - anyone have similar problems, or a solution ? Dave, C-FBZI On 3-May-08, at 8:41 AM, UVTReith wrote: > > > Europa Aircraft is offering a fuel sender as MOD 60. > There are also a lot of other items they offer. > It's always quite good to check their homepages www.europa- > aircraft.biz > > > Bruno Reith > Europa Aircraft Germany > >


    Message 11


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:48:56 AM PST US
    From: "David.Corbett" <david.corbett5@btinternet.com>
    Subject: William and Paul - Memorial DOTH
    10 days ago, we postponed the proposed fly-in at Shobdon from 28 April to Sunday 4 May. 3 days ago, on the basis of all the forecasts for tomorrow, we postponed it again, from Sunday 4 May to Bank Holiday 5 May. This message is to say that, if there is anyone out there who could not come on either Sunday, but could and would like to come on Monday 5 May - you are very welcome to do so; just e-mail me please, or leave a message on my mobile 07970 292936. There are "joining instructions", and it would be helpful for any extra attendees to see them before arrival. Monday does look better; it is just darkening up for Sunday's rain as I write (1745 Saturday)! David


    Message 12


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:51:53 PM PST US
    From: "Steven Pitt" <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com>
    Subject: Test
    After some wise advise this is another test. Is anyone receiving me? Steve Pitt Checked by AVG. :22 AM <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier"> </b></font></pre></body></html>


    Message 13


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:24:45 PM PST US
    From: "Ivor Phillips" <ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com>
    Subject: Test
    Loud and clear Steve ivor -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven Pitt Sent: 03 May 2008 20:46 Subject: Europa-List: Test After some wise advise this is another test. Is anyone receiving me? Steve Pitt


    Message 14


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:36:42 PM PST US
    From: Paul Boulet <possibletodo@YAHOO.COM>
    Subject: Re: Test
    loud and clear Paul Boulet, N914PB, Malibu, CA Steven Pitt <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com> wrote: After some wise advise this is another test. Is anyone receiving me? Steve Pitt Checked by AVG. :22 AM


    Message 15


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 01:47:17 PM PST US
    From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Test
    Getting your msg Steve. Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven Pitt Sent: 03 May 2008 20:46 Subject: Europa-List: Test After some wise advise this is another test. Is anyone receiving me? Steve Pitt


    Message 16


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:44:16 PM PST US
    From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    Yes i know thanks, I was referring to the logistics of fitting a fuel sender to a tank with a bladder in it. Which to my knowledge even top level motorsport teams still havn't managed to do. I have a capacitance probe in my tank, but thankyou. craig do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of UVTReith Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 10:41 PM Subject: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. Hi Craig, Europa Aircraft is offering a fuel sender as MOD 60. There are also a lot of other items they offer. It's always quite good to check their homepages www.europa-aircraft.biz Best Regards, Bruno Reith Europa Aircraft Germany -----Ursprngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von craig bastin Gesendet: Samstag, 3. Mai 2008 11:29 An: europa-list@matronics.com Betreff: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. Same as they run in most race cars, one problem I can see is that they still havnt worked out the logistics of a fuel sender as far as i am aware, so you would be stuck with the sight glass level I guess, also from what I have seen, you would be basically creating a new tank plus bladder, so wouldnt the alloy tank be simpler and cheaper. Other than that, it would probably be the overall best option, if it is a proper fuel cell, then fuel surge and vapours are virtually eliminated craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert C Harrison Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 5:53 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Ralf No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion, however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough for Concord. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K. Hallett III Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. <n100rh@sbcglobal.net> In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder in the existing tank? Ralph rk Hallett Reno, NV Checked by AVG. 4:34 PM Checked by AVG. 4:34 PM Checked by AVG. 4:34 PM Checked by AVG. 4:34 PM


    Message 17


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:45:04 PM PST US
    From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Test
    reading you 5's steve craig do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steven Pitt Sent: Sunday, 4 May 2008 5:46 AM Subject: Europa-List: Test After some wise advise this is another test. Is anyone receiving me? Steve Pitt Checked by AVG. 4:34 PM Checked by AVG. 4:34 PM


    Message 18


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 03:19:19 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    From: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
    On Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 07:00 US/Pacific, david miller wrote: > It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than 1%, > I would imagine that > welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems. Perhaps > all that is required is for the factory to beef up the existing design > a little , and ensure that the tanks are well flourinated. David, Thank you for your optimism...I certainly hope your take on this holds up over time. For myself (in the midst of my build w/ the top just clecoed in place and no fuel in the tank, I'm inclined to essentially live w/ the possibility of tank replacement at some time in the future. I am laying up a stiff, full width FG strip, cushioned w/ 1/8" closed cell flexible foam, which will slide between the spacers and the front face of the tank in order to guard against potential tank contact w/ the aileron control rod; it will have a generous curve to allow for some bulging (but not so much as would interfere with the spars) and be bonded full width to the underside of the shelf layup. I'll post a pix in the next few days. I recognise that this may do nothing to alleviate potential cracking around the tunnel, and I'm looking into the possibility of some foam ala Ron Pagoris's postings. This tank situation is giving me another reason to build a "spit" which would allow the fuselage to rotate 360 degrees; if a miraculous coating turns up which inhibits or eliminates entirely the propensity for fuel to be absorbed into the HDPE material, I would disconnect my fuel lines, stopper the openings, pour a gallon or so in the tank and give the entire fuselage about 10 revolutions in both directions. jus rock and roll, Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


    Message 19


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 04:52:33 PM PST US
    From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
    Subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    Fred, Lance sandford has a hexagonal "spit" that bolts into the spar holes and allows him to roll the thing on its side/upside down very simple but does the job nicely, it was made from about 25mm steel box section, with gussets on the corners, he then just has a cradle for the tail support. Being a hexagon, it stays where you put it. Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Sunday, 4 May 2008 8:15 AM Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. On Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 07:00 US/Pacific, david miller wrote: > It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than 1%, > I would imagine that > welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems. Perhaps > all that is required is for the factory to beef up the existing design > a little , and ensure that the tanks are well flourinated. David, Thank you for your optimism...I certainly hope your take on this holds up over time. For myself (in the midst of my build w/ the top just clecoed in place and no fuel in the tank, I'm inclined to essentially live w/ the possibility of tank replacement at some time in the future. I am laying up a stiff, full width FG strip, cushioned w/ 1/8" closed cell flexible foam, which will slide between the spacers and the front face of the tank in order to guard against potential tank contact w/ the aileron control rod; it will have a generous curve to allow for some bulging (but not so much as would interfere with the spars) and be bonded full width to the underside of the shelf layup. I'll post a pix in the next few days. I recognise that this may do nothing to alleviate potential cracking around the tunnel, and I'm looking into the possibility of some foam ala Ron Pagoris's postings. This tank situation is giving me another reason to build a "spit" which would allow the fuselage to rotate 360 degrees; if a miraculous coating turns up which inhibits or eliminates entirely the propensity for fuel to be absorbed into the HDPE material, I would disconnect my fuel lines, stopper the openings, pour a gallon or so in the tank and give the entire fuselage about 10 revolutions in both directions. jus rock and roll, Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. Checked by AVG. 4:34 PM Checked by AVG. 11:22 AM


    Message 20


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 05:03:44 PM PST US
    From: "JR Gowing" <jrgowing@bigpond.net.au>
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    Craig Tony Krzyzewski's site mayh interest you if you have never looked at it..... Electronic Fuel gauge fitted. Builder developed modification Don't quite know what you were thinking but if I were confident in wiring I think this gauge would be good - IF YOUR TANK WAS A REGULAR SHAPE! But you don't actually see the fuel level. Anyway I must make time to go over his site myself for a good look. Best Wishes JR ----- Original Message ----- From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 7:29 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. > > Same as they run in most race cars, one problem I can see is that they > still > havnt worked out the logistics > of a fuel sender as far as i am aware, so you would be stuck with the > sight > glass level I guess, also from what > I have seen, you would be basically creating a new tank plus bladder, so > wouldnt the alloy tank be simpler > and cheaper. Other than that, it would probably be the overall best > option, > if it is a proper fuel cell, then fuel surge > and vapours are virtually eliminated > > craig > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert C > Harrison > Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 5:53 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. > > > <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> > > Hi! Ralf > No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion, > however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough > for Concord. > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K. > Hallett III > Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. > > <n100rh@sbcglobal.net> > > In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder > > in the existing tank? > > Ralph > rk Hallett > Reno, NV > > > Checked by AVG. > 4:34 PM > > Checked by AVG. > 4:34 PM > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 4:34 PM > > --


    Message 21


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 05:27:26 PM PST US
    From: "Jerry Rehn" <rehn@rockisland.com>
    Subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    Fred There are sloshing products for sealing the inside of fuel tanks. The question is will they work in our tanks. I know they have it for fiberglass and aluminum and some of the sloshes are epoxy based. We know epoxy sticks to our tanks. Maybe you could check out Jeffco Products they make epoxy fuel tank sealers. I am sure they will show up in a Google. Maybe they could tell us if would make sense. Jerry -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:15 PM Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. On Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 07:00 US/Pacific, david miller wrote: > It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than 1%, > I would imagine that > welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems. Perhaps > all that is required is for the factory to beef up the existing design > a little , and ensure that the tanks are well flourinated. David, Thank you for your optimism...I certainly hope your take on this holds up over time. For myself (in the midst of my build w/ the top just clecoed in place and no fuel in the tank, I'm inclined to essentially live w/ the possibility of tank replacement at some time in the future. I am laying up a stiff, full width FG strip, cushioned w/ 1/8" closed cell flexible foam, which will slide between the spacers and the front face of the tank in order to guard against potential tank contact w/ the aileron control rod; it will have a generous curve to allow for some bulging (but not so much as would interfere with the spars) and be bonded full width to the underside of the shelf layup. I'll post a pix in the next few days. I recognise that this may do nothing to alleviate potential cracking around the tunnel, and I'm looking into the possibility of some foam ala Ron Pagoris's postings. This tank situation is giving me another reason to build a "spit" which would allow the fuselage to rotate 360 degrees; if a miraculous coating turns up which inhibits or eliminates entirely the propensity for fuel to be absorbed into the HDPE material, I would disconnect my fuel lines, stopper the openings, pour a gallon or so in the tank and give the entire fuselage about 10 revolutions in both directions. jus rock and roll, Fred


    Message 22


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:34:10 PM PST US
    From: "Ralph K. Hallett III" <n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    If I've remember correctly auto racing safety tanks use a rubber bladder. I will check Simpson et al and see if it is possible to have a custom bladder made to fit inside our existing plastic tank. If I loose some useful volume, I really don't care. Ralph Robert C Harrison wrote: > > Hi! Ralf > No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion, > however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough > for Concord. > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K. > Hallett III > Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. > > <n100rh@sbcglobal.net> > > In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder > > in the existing tank? > > Ralph > rk Hallett > Reno, NV > > >


    Message 23


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:34:10 PM PST US
    From: Venu Rao <venurao@mac.com>
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    I spoke to Jim Nelson-whom many of you know- and venerable builder of A058 - which I now own. He suggested I check with Bob Berube at Flight Crafters who he thinks is working on an aluminium tank retrofit for someone! I'm emailing him to get details. Will update you shortly! After speaking with Jim, I've decided to convert A058 to conventional gear through Bob. Might do the tank concurrently if its not too expensive. Venu Europa Mono - flying A058 - 132.5 hrs Austin, TX On May 3, 2008, at 19:23, Jerry Rehn <rehn@rockisland.com> wrote: > > Fred > There are sloshing products for sealing the inside of fuel tanks. The > question is will they work in our tanks. I know they have it for > fiberglass > and aluminum and some of the sloshes are epoxy based. We know epoxy > sticks > to our tanks. Maybe you could check out Jeffco Products they make > epoxy fuel > tank sealers. I am sure they will show up in a Google. Maybe they > could tell > us if would make sense. > Jerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred > Klein > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:15 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. > > > > On Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 07:00 US/Pacific, david miller wrote: > >> It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than >> 1%, >> I would imagine that >> welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems. Perhaps >> all that is required is for the factory to beef up the existing >> design >> a little , and ensure that the tanks are well flourinated. > > David, > > Thank you for your optimism...I certainly hope your take on this holds > up over time. > > For myself (in the midst of my build w/ the top just clecoed in place > and no fuel in the tank, I'm inclined to essentially live w/ the > possibility of tank replacement at some time in the future. > > I am laying up a stiff, full width FG strip, cushioned w/ 1/8" closed > cell flexible foam, which will slide between the spacers and the front > face of the tank in order to guard against potential tank contact w/ > the aileron control rod; it will have a generous curve to allow for > some bulging (but not so much as would interfere with the spars) and > be > bonded full width to the underside of the shelf layup. I'll post a pix > in the next few days. I recognise that this may do nothing to > alleviate > potential cracking around the tunnel, and I'm looking into the > possibility of some foam ala Ron Pagoris's postings. > > This tank situation is giving me another reason to build a "spit" > which > would allow the fuselage to rotate 360 degrees; if a miraculous > coating > turns up which inhibits or eliminates entirely the propensity for fuel > to be absorbed into the HDPE material, I would disconnect my fuel > lines, stopper the openings, pour a gallon or so in the tank and give > the entire fuselage about 10 revolutions in both directions. > > jus rock and roll, > > Fred > >


    Message 24


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 11:53:08 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
    I think Tony's fuel gauge could be callibrated for any shape tank. Paul? Graham JR Gowing wrote: > > Craig > Tony Krzyzewski's site mayh interest you if you have never looked at > it..... > > Electronic Fuel gauge fitted. Builder developed modification > > Don't quite know what you were thinking but if I were confident in > wiring I think this gauge would be good - IF YOUR TANK WAS A REGULAR > SHAPE! But you don't actually see the fuel level. > > Anyway I must make time to go over his site myself for a good look. > > Best Wishes > JR > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 7:29 PM > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. > > >> <craigb@onthenet.com.au> >> >> Same as they run in most race cars, one problem I can see is that they >> still >> havnt worked out the logistics >> of a fuel sender as far as i am aware, so you would be stuck with the >> sight >> glass level I guess, also from what >> I have seen, you would be basically creating a new tank plus bladder, so >> wouldnt the alloy tank be simpler >> and cheaper. Other than that, it would probably be the overall best >> option, >> if it is a proper fuel cell, then fuel surge >> and vapours are virtually eliminated >> >> craig >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert C >> Harrison >> Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 5:53 PM >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. >> >> >> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> >> >> Hi! Ralf >> No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion, >> however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough >> for Concord. >> Regards >> Bob Harrison G-PTAG >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K. >> Hallett III >> Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23 >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. >> >> <n100rh@sbcglobal.net> >> >> In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder >> >> in the existing tank? >> >> Ralph >> rk Hallett >> Reno, NV >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Checked by AVG. >> 4:34 PM >> >> Checked by AVG. >> 4:34 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Checked by AVG. >> 4:34 PM >> >> > > -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005




    Other Matronics Email List Services

  • Post A New Message
  •   europa-list@matronics.com
  • UN/SUBSCRIBE
  •   http://www.matronics.com/subscription
  • List FAQ
  •   http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm
  • Web Forum Interface To Lists
  •   http://forums.matronics.com
  • Matronics List Wiki
  •   http://wiki.matronics.com
  • 7-Day List Browse
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list
  • Browse Europa-List Digests
  •   http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list
  • Browse Other Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse
  • Live Online Chat!
  •   http://www.matronics.com/chat
  • Archive Downloading
  •   http://www.matronics.com/archives
  • Photo Share
  •   http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
  • Other Email Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
  • Contributions
  •   http://www.matronics.com/contribution

    These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.

    -- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --