Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:03 AM - SV: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Arnold Kr. Hansen)
2. 12:55 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Robert C Harrison)
3. 12:58 AM - Re: Test (Peter Jeffers)
4. 12:58 AM - Re: trigear sockets and tie bar (Robert C Harrison)
5. 01:32 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
6. 02:32 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (craig bastin)
7. 02:43 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Robert C Harrison)
8. 04:07 AM - Re: Dipole in the sternpost (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
9. 05:44 AM - AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (UVTReith)
10. 06:57 AM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (david miller)
11. 09:48 AM - William and Paul - Memorial DOTH (David.Corbett)
12. 12:51 PM - Test (Steven Pitt)
13. 01:24 PM - Re: Test (Ivor Phillips)
14. 01:36 PM - Re: Test (Paul Boulet)
15. 01:47 PM - Re: Test (Robert C Harrison)
16. 02:44 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (craig bastin)
17. 02:45 PM - Re: Test (craig bastin)
18. 03:19 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Fred Klein)
19. 04:52 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (craig bastin)
20. 05:03 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (JR Gowing)
21. 05:27 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Jerry Rehn)
22. 06:34 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Ralph K. Hallett III)
23. 06:34 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Venu Rao)
24. 11:53 PM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Graham Singleton)
Message 1
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Gary Leinberger,
Sorry that I have overlooked your questions amongst the great number of
comments following my message to the list.
My tank was delivered in 2000 and there has been fuel in it since August
2005.
Then some comments to your eventual aluminium tank.
I have maid some design calculations for a new TIG welded tank made of
aluminium which is 70 mm higher than the original. With a stiffener
spacing of 135 mm and 250 mm, the minimum thickness required for an
internal pressure of 3.5 psi (FAR 23) using a 5052 quality came out at
1.74 mm. So I will use 2 mm. At the present stage the horizontal
stiffeners on the forward and aft walls are corrugations and the
vertical stiffeners are 3 longitudinal bulkheads. The weight is
calculated to 11.3 kilogram. I learned last night that Graham had used
magnesium in his tank weighing 7.8 kilogram. I think the density of
magnesium is around 1.7 compared to 2.7 for aluminium. I have some
experience applying aluminium in high speed crafts, but no experience
with magnesium. So I think I will pay the weight penalty and stick to
aluminium. The volume with a simplified geometry in the lower part is 83
litres. As soon as I obtain more information about the space available
in that area, I intend to increase the volume somewhat.
Regards
Arnold
-----Opprinnelig melding-----
Fra: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] P=E5 vegne av Gary
Leinberger
Sendt: 29. april 2008 22:58
Til: europa-list@matronics.com
Emne: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
How old is your tank and how long have you had fuel in it? I had to
replace mine - it was my fault in the sense that I pressure tested it
with too much air pressure and ended up with stress cracks on the outer
edges where the wing comes in - but the real problem seems to be it is
not a very flexible material and over time I am afraid I will need to
replace it again - if I do I guess I will get an aluminium tank welded
up - pictures of land Rovers running over the tank may not be the best
approach to judging the long term ability of the tank to accept stress -
Gary Leinberger
A237
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Arnold Kr.
Hansen
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:52 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Hi,
Shortlybefore start of taxiing, it was discovered that fuel was coming
out of the fuselage on my Europa XS trigear (LN-ABM), through the access
holes below the tank. Draining of the tank was started and the leakage
stopped when 20 - 25 litres were remaining in the tank.
Two daysbefore I had drained the tank completely since the aircraft had
been stationary (in a heated hangar) since 1. july 2006 with app. 35
litres of mogas in the tank. The day of start up I filled 18 litres and
checked all hose connections. Started the engine and runned it for 5
minutes to check hose connections to the recently installed oil
thermostat. Then filled another 36 litres of mogas and started the
engine for the local flight.
Removing the wings, it was revealed that the tank front facing the wing
spars, had great bulges, bulges inwards and outwards, and the centre one
touching the aileron cross tube, see attached picture. I have not yet
localized the crack, but I suspect the saddle section just ahead of the
fibreglass bracket. To me the in and out shape of the bulges indicate
compression stresses due to material expansion (caused by the fuel
applied, 95 octane mogas?). And I think the crack is caused by shear
stresses just forward of the bracket mentioned.
I will appreciate comments and advice. At present I do not trust the
material, polyethylene, used in the tank. Has anybody applied metal
tanks?
Regards
Arnold Kr. Hansen
Europa XS trigear, Kit No.381
Message 2
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Hi! Ralf
No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion,
however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough
for Concord.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K.
Hallett III
Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder
in the existing tank?
Ralph
rk Hallett
Reno, NV
Message 3
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Hi Steve it depends what you are testing but for your information there is no tet
with your e mail again.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: "Steven Pitt" <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com>
Sent: 02/05/08 11:46
Subject: Europa-List: Test
Message 4
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Subject: | trigear sockets and tie bar |
Hi! Gary
At the expense of getting an ear bashing... yes the sockets go through
the fuselage and cockpit module until the plate is bedded on the
underside. Then the fun begins shaping the ply fillets to the socket
tube and glassing them into place.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Leinberger
Sent: 02 May 2008 15:10
Subject: RE: Europa-List: trigear sockets and tie bar
This may be a stupid question (duh) - but the socket goes completely
inside the canoe? That is, you don't push it through the hole from the
outside so the metal plate is on the outside skin?
Gary Leinberger
A237
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Daniell
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:23 AM
Subject: Europa-List: trigear sockets and tie bar
Following on from the trigear sockets issue.
The manual tells you to put the trigear sockets in before the rear wing
socket/tie bar. Is there a photo of a completed trigear with the tie
bar in place on the forum so I can see how it all fits together?
Alternatively can someone send me a pic.
Many thanks
Will
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 19:36
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Emailing: Tank bulge
In re: Tri-Gear main sockets
One cusses for several hours and hopes the neighbors do not complain
about the foul language. This was where I decided that the factory
considered the Tri-Gear to be the ugly step child in the family.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
Checked by AVG.
27-Apr-08 09:39
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronh
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
How would you get it into the tank?
Duncan McF
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:52 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Ralf
> No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion,
> however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough
> for Concord.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K.
> Hallett III
> Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
>
> In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder
>
> in the existing tank?
>
> Ralph
> rk Hallett
> Reno, NV
>
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Same as they run in most race cars, one problem I can see is that they still
havnt worked out the logistics
of a fuel sender as far as i am aware, so you would be stuck with the sight
glass level I guess, also from what
I have seen, you would be basically creating a new tank plus bladder, so
wouldnt the alloy tank be simpler
and cheaper. Other than that, it would probably be the overall best option,
if it is a proper fuel cell, then fuel surge
and vapours are virtually eliminated
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert C
Harrison
Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 5:53 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Ralf
No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion,
however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough
for Concord.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K.
Hallett III
Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder
in the existing tank?
Ralph
rk Hallett
Reno, NV
Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
Message 7
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Hi! Duncan
Obviously there are some challenges, however Getting it in through the
oval fuel sender cut out in the tank op wouldn't be a problem.
Bob H G-PTAG
PS the major problem would be getting acceptance from the LAA !
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan &
Ami McFadyean
Sent: 03 May 2008 09:29
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
How would you get it into the tank?
Duncan McF
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert C Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:52 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Ralf
> No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion,
> however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good
enough
> for Concord.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K.
> Hallett III
> Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
>
> In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber
bladder
>
> in the existing tank?
>
> Ralph
> rk Hallett
> Reno, NV
>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Dipole in the sternpost |
In a message dated 5/3/2008 3:01:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list@matronics.com writes:
Have others had difficulity with the dipole in the rudder causing problems?
Hi Jim,
FWIW, I installed an AAE (available from ACS) dipole COM on the rear my
sternpost, forward of the rudder. I installed an AAE transponder antenna, also
a
dipole, on the right side of the fuselage (inside), about 12 inches in front
of the rear bulkhead. Both antennae work beautifully and the only thing I
notice is the card compass swings slightly when I key the transmitter. I don't
see this effect when the transponder keys. I swept both these antennas
individually and with their respective feed lines and the SWR characteristics
are
flat across their respective bands.
Do keep your coax separate from everything else. I ran my coax for the COM
and transponder down one side of the fuselage and the rest of the wires down
the other side. Avoid placing any other wires near the coax termination's as
best you can, as RF leaks sometimes occur at the connectors and can cause
problems. Use good quality coax and connectors, IOW, not Radio Shack crap. Amp
makes excellent BNC connectors and they are available from Allied, Digikey and
many other suppliers. I prefer solder on center pins if you can find them,
with crimp on barrels. The clamp on screw type BNC connectors are garbage. Be
sure the shield makes good contact with the barrel of the BNC. Spruce has very
good RG58 coax that is aircraft rated. I did have to spring for a precision
cable for my Garmin transponder to meet Garmin's 1dB cable insertion loss
requirements, though. It wasn't cheap, but the performance I'm seeing was worth
every penny.
I'd be happy to bring my sweep test gear and SWR meter to Rough River if
anybody needs something looked at. I have the capacity to sweep anything from 30
Mhz to 3.3 Ghz. I also have a Bird precision watt meter for checking power
output at COM and transponder frequencies.
Hope it helps!
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Currently down for cowl work
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 9
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Hi Craig,
Europa Aircraft is offering a fuel sender as MOD 60.
There are also a lot of other items they offer.
It's always quite good to check their homepages www.europa-aircraft.biz
Best Regards,
Bruno Reith
Europa Aircraft Germany
-----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von craig bastin
Gesendet: Samstag, 3. Mai 2008 11:29
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Same as they run in most race cars, one problem I can see is that they still
havnt worked out the logistics
of a fuel sender as far as i am aware, so you would be stuck with the sight
glass level I guess, also from what
I have seen, you would be basically creating a new tank plus bladder, so
wouldnt the alloy tank be simpler
and cheaper. Other than that, it would probably be the overall best option,
if it is a proper fuel cell, then fuel surge
and vapours are virtually eliminated
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert C
Harrison
Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 5:53 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Ralf
No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion,
however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough
for Concord.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K.
Hallett III
Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder
in the existing tank?
Ralph
rk Hallett
Reno, NV
Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than
1%, I would imagine that
welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems.
Perhaps all that is required is for the factory to beef up the
existing design a little , and ensure that
the tanks are well flourinated.
I checked for fuel smells in the system by attaching a sniffer hose
to one side of my carbon
filter mask. Made for a good impression of an elephant, but I could
not find any trace of a leak.
I get a whiff of fuel while flying in turbulent air, seems to be
related to the tank venting onto the
fuselage, but I can't figure how it then finds its way into the cabin
- anyone have similar problems, or a
solution ?
Dave, C-FBZI
On 3-May-08, at 8:41 AM, UVTReith wrote:
>
>
> Europa Aircraft is offering a fuel sender as MOD 60.
> There are also a lot of other items they offer.
> It's always quite good to check their homepages www.europa-
> aircraft.biz
>
>
> Bruno Reith
> Europa Aircraft Germany
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | William and Paul - Memorial DOTH |
10 days ago, we postponed the proposed fly-in at Shobdon from 28 April to
Sunday 4 May. 3 days ago, on the basis of all the forecasts for tomorrow, we
postponed it again, from Sunday 4 May to Bank Holiday 5 May.
This message is to say that, if there is anyone out there who could not come
on either Sunday, but could and would like to come on Monday 5 May - you are
very welcome to do so; just e-mail me please, or leave a message on my
mobile 07970 292936. There are "joining instructions", and it would be
helpful for any extra attendees to see them before arrival.
Monday does look better; it is just darkening up for Sunday's rain as I
write (1745 Saturday)!
David
Message 12
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After some wise advise this is another test. Is anyone receiving me?
Steve Pitt
Checked by AVG.
:22 AM
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 13
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Loud and clear Steve
ivor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven Pitt
Sent: 03 May 2008 20:46
Subject: Europa-List: Test
After some wise advise this is another test. Is anyone receiving me?
Steve Pitt
Message 14
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loud and clear
Paul Boulet, N914PB, Malibu, CA
Steven Pitt <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com> wrote:
After some wise advise this is another test. Is anyone receiving me?
Steve Pitt
Checked by AVG.
:22 AM
Message 15
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Getting your msg Steve.
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven Pitt
Sent: 03 May 2008 20:46
Subject: Europa-List: Test
After some wise advise this is another test. Is anyone receiving me?
Steve Pitt
Message 16
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Yes i know thanks, I was referring to the logistics of fitting a fuel sender
to a tank
with a bladder in it. Which to my knowledge even top level motorsport teams
still
havn't managed to do. I have a capacitance probe in my tank, but thankyou.
craig
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of UVTReith
Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 10:41 PM
Subject: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Hi Craig,
Europa Aircraft is offering a fuel sender as MOD 60.
There are also a lot of other items they offer.
It's always quite good to check their homepages www.europa-aircraft.biz
Best Regards,
Bruno Reith
Europa Aircraft Germany
-----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von craig bastin
Gesendet: Samstag, 3. Mai 2008 11:29
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Same as they run in most race cars, one problem I can see is that they still
havnt worked out the logistics
of a fuel sender as far as i am aware, so you would be stuck with the sight
glass level I guess, also from what
I have seen, you would be basically creating a new tank plus bladder, so
wouldnt the alloy tank be simpler
and cheaper. Other than that, it would probably be the overall best option,
if it is a proper fuel cell, then fuel surge
and vapours are virtually eliminated
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert C
Harrison
Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 5:53 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Ralf
No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion,
however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough
for Concord.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K.
Hallett III
Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
<n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder
in the existing tank?
Ralph
rk Hallett
Reno, NV
Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
Message 17
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reading you 5's steve
craig
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steven Pitt
Sent: Sunday, 4 May 2008 5:46 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Test
After some wise advise this is another test. Is anyone receiving me?
Steve Pitt
Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
On Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 07:00 US/Pacific, david miller wrote:
> It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than 1%,
> I would imagine that
> welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems. Perhaps
> all that is required is for the factory to beef up the existing design
> a little , and ensure that the tanks are well flourinated.
David,
Thank you for your optimism...I certainly hope your take on this holds
up over time.
For myself (in the midst of my build w/ the top just clecoed in place
and no fuel in the tank, I'm inclined to essentially live w/ the
possibility of tank replacement at some time in the future.
I am laying up a stiff, full width FG strip, cushioned w/ 1/8" closed
cell flexible foam, which will slide between the spacers and the front
face of the tank in order to guard against potential tank contact w/
the aileron control rod; it will have a generous curve to allow for
some bulging (but not so much as would interfere with the spars) and be
bonded full width to the underside of the shelf layup. I'll post a pix
in the next few days. I recognise that this may do nothing to alleviate
potential cracking around the tunnel, and I'm looking into the
possibility of some foam ala Ron Pagoris's postings.
This tank situation is giving me another reason to build a "spit" which
would allow the fuselage to rotate 360 degrees; if a miraculous coating
turns up which inhibits or eliminates entirely the propensity for fuel
to be absorbed into the HDPE material, I would disconnect my fuel
lines, stopper the openings, pour a gallon or so in the tank and give
the entire fuselage about 10 revolutions in both directions.
jus rock and roll,
Fred
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Message 19
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Fred, Lance sandford has a hexagonal "spit" that bolts into the spar holes
and allows him to roll the
thing on its side/upside down very simple but does the job nicely, it was
made from about 25mm steel box
section, with gussets on the corners, he then just has a cradle for the tail
support. Being a hexagon, it stays
where you put it.
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Sunday, 4 May 2008 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
On Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 07:00 US/Pacific, david miller wrote:
> It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than 1%,
> I would imagine that
> welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems. Perhaps
> all that is required is for the factory to beef up the existing design
> a little , and ensure that the tanks are well flourinated.
David,
Thank you for your optimism...I certainly hope your take on this holds
up over time.
For myself (in the midst of my build w/ the top just clecoed in place
and no fuel in the tank, I'm inclined to essentially live w/ the
possibility of tank replacement at some time in the future.
I am laying up a stiff, full width FG strip, cushioned w/ 1/8" closed
cell flexible foam, which will slide between the spacers and the front
face of the tank in order to guard against potential tank contact w/
the aileron control rod; it will have a generous curve to allow for
some bulging (but not so much as would interfere with the spars) and be
bonded full width to the underside of the shelf layup. I'll post a pix
in the next few days. I recognise that this may do nothing to alleviate
potential cracking around the tunnel, and I'm looking into the
possibility of some foam ala Ron Pagoris's postings.
This tank situation is giving me another reason to build a "spit" which
would allow the fuselage to rotate 360 degrees; if a miraculous coating
turns up which inhibits or eliminates entirely the propensity for fuel
to be absorbed into the HDPE material, I would disconnect my fuel
lines, stopper the openings, pour a gallon or so in the tank and give
the entire fuselage about 10 revolutions in both directions.
jus rock and roll,
Fred
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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believed to be clean.
Checked by AVG.
4:34 PM
Checked by AVG.
11:22 AM
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Craig
Tony Krzyzewski's site mayh interest you if you have never looked at
it.....
Electronic Fuel gauge fitted. Builder developed modification
Don't quite know what you were thinking but if I were confident in wiring I
think this gauge would be good - IF YOUR TANK WAS A REGULAR SHAPE! But you
don't actually see the fuel level.
Anyway I must make time to go over his site myself for a good look.
Best Wishes
JR
----- Original Message -----
From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 7:29 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> Same as they run in most race cars, one problem I can see is that they
> still
> havnt worked out the logistics
> of a fuel sender as far as i am aware, so you would be stuck with the
> sight
> glass level I guess, also from what
> I have seen, you would be basically creating a new tank plus bladder, so
> wouldnt the alloy tank be simpler
> and cheaper. Other than that, it would probably be the overall best
> option,
> if it is a proper fuel cell, then fuel surge
> and vapours are virtually eliminated
>
> craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert C
> Harrison
> Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 5:53 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Ralf
> No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion,
> however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough
> for Concord.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K.
> Hallett III
> Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
>
> In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder
>
> in the existing tank?
>
> Ralph
> rk Hallett
> Reno, NV
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 4:34 PM
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 4:34 PM
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 4:34 PM
>
>
--
Message 21
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Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Fred
There are sloshing products for sealing the inside of fuel tanks. The
question is will they work in our tanks. I know they have it for fiberglass
and aluminum and some of the sloshes are epoxy based. We know epoxy sticks
to our tanks. Maybe you could check out Jeffco Products they make epoxy fuel
tank sealers. I am sure they will show up in a Google. Maybe they could tell
us if would make sense.
Jerry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
On Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 07:00 US/Pacific, david miller wrote:
> It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than 1%,
> I would imagine that
> welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems. Perhaps
> all that is required is for the factory to beef up the existing design
> a little , and ensure that the tanks are well flourinated.
David,
Thank you for your optimism...I certainly hope your take on this holds
up over time.
For myself (in the midst of my build w/ the top just clecoed in place
and no fuel in the tank, I'm inclined to essentially live w/ the
possibility of tank replacement at some time in the future.
I am laying up a stiff, full width FG strip, cushioned w/ 1/8" closed
cell flexible foam, which will slide between the spacers and the front
face of the tank in order to guard against potential tank contact w/
the aileron control rod; it will have a generous curve to allow for
some bulging (but not so much as would interfere with the spars) and be
bonded full width to the underside of the shelf layup. I'll post a pix
in the next few days. I recognise that this may do nothing to alleviate
potential cracking around the tunnel, and I'm looking into the
possibility of some foam ala Ron Pagoris's postings.
This tank situation is giving me another reason to build a "spit" which
would allow the fuselage to rotate 360 degrees; if a miraculous coating
turns up which inhibits or eliminates entirely the propensity for fuel
to be absorbed into the HDPE material, I would disconnect my fuel
lines, stopper the openings, pour a gallon or so in the tank and give
the entire fuselage about 10 revolutions in both directions.
jus rock and roll,
Fred
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
If I've remember correctly auto racing safety tanks use a rubber
bladder. I will check Simpson et al and see if it is possible to have a
custom bladder made to fit inside our existing plastic tank. If I loose
some useful volume, I really don't care.
Ralph
Robert C Harrison wrote:
>
> Hi! Ralf
> No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion,
> however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough
> for Concord.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K.
> Hallett III
> Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
> <n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
>
> In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder
>
> in the existing tank?
>
> Ralph
> rk Hallett
> Reno, NV
>
>
>
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
I spoke to Jim Nelson-whom many of you know- and venerable builder of
A058 - which I now own.
He suggested I check with Bob Berube at Flight Crafters who he thinks
is working on an aluminium tank retrofit for someone!
I'm emailing him to get details. Will update you shortly!
After speaking with Jim, I've decided to convert A058 to conventional
gear through Bob. Might do the tank concurrently if its not too
expensive.
Venu
Europa Mono - flying
A058 - 132.5 hrs
Austin, TX
On May 3, 2008, at 19:23, Jerry Rehn <rehn@rockisland.com> wrote:
>
> Fred
> There are sloshing products for sealing the inside of fuel tanks. The
> question is will they work in our tanks. I know they have it for
> fiberglass
> and aluminum and some of the sloshes are epoxy based. We know epoxy
> sticks
> to our tanks. Maybe you could check out Jeffco Products they make
> epoxy fuel
> tank sealers. I am sure they will show up in a Google. Maybe they
> could tell
> us if would make sense.
> Jerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
> Klein
> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 3:15 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
>
> On Saturday, May 3, 2008, at 07:00 US/Pacific, david miller wrote:
>
>> It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than
>> 1%,
>> I would imagine that
>> welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems. Perhaps
>> all that is required is for the factory to beef up the existing
>> design
>> a little , and ensure that the tanks are well flourinated.
>
> David,
>
> Thank you for your optimism...I certainly hope your take on this holds
> up over time.
>
> For myself (in the midst of my build w/ the top just clecoed in place
> and no fuel in the tank, I'm inclined to essentially live w/ the
> possibility of tank replacement at some time in the future.
>
> I am laying up a stiff, full width FG strip, cushioned w/ 1/8" closed
> cell flexible foam, which will slide between the spacers and the front
> face of the tank in order to guard against potential tank contact w/
> the aileron control rod; it will have a generous curve to allow for
> some bulging (but not so much as would interfere with the spars) and
> be
> bonded full width to the underside of the shelf layup. I'll post a pix
> in the next few days. I recognise that this may do nothing to
> alleviate
> potential cracking around the tunnel, and I'm looking into the
> possibility of some foam ala Ron Pagoris's postings.
>
> This tank situation is giving me another reason to build a "spit"
> which
> would allow the fuselage to rotate 360 degrees; if a miraculous
> coating
> turns up which inhibits or eliminates entirely the propensity for fuel
> to be absorbed into the HDPE material, I would disconnect my fuel
> lines, stopper the openings, pour a gallon or so in the tank and give
> the entire fuselage about 10 revolutions in both directions.
>
> jus rock and roll,
>
> Fred
>
>
Message 24
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|
Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
I think Tony's fuel gauge could be callibrated for any shape tank. Paul?
Graham
JR Gowing wrote:
>
> Craig
> Tony Krzyzewski's site mayh interest you if you have never looked at
> it.....
>
> Electronic Fuel gauge fitted. Builder developed modification
>
> Don't quite know what you were thinking but if I were confident in
> wiring I think this gauge would be good - IF YOUR TANK WAS A REGULAR
> SHAPE! But you don't actually see the fuel level.
>
> Anyway I must make time to go over his site myself for a good look.
>
> Best Wishes
> JR
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "craig bastin" <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 7:29 PM
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
>> <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
>>
>> Same as they run in most race cars, one problem I can see is that they
>> still
>> havnt worked out the logistics
>> of a fuel sender as far as i am aware, so you would be stuck with the
>> sight
>> glass level I guess, also from what
>> I have seen, you would be basically creating a new tank plus bladder, so
>> wouldnt the alloy tank be simpler
>> and cheaper. Other than that, it would probably be the overall best
>> option,
>> if it is a proper fuel cell, then fuel surge
>> and vapours are virtually eliminated
>>
>> craig
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert C
>> Harrison
>> Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 5:53 PM
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>>
>>
>> <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>>
>> Hi! Ralf
>> No one has commented ? Personally I thought it a good suggestion,
>> however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough
>> for Concord.
>> Regards
>> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph K.
>> Hallett III
>> Sent: 02 May 2008 03:23
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>>
>> <n100rh@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>> In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder
>>
>> in the existing tank?
>>
>> Ralph
>> rk Hallett
>> Reno, NV
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Checked by AVG.
>> 4:34 PM
>>
>> Checked by AVG.
>> 4:34 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Checked by AVG.
>> 4:34 PM
>>
>>
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
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