Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:34 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
2. 12:40 AM - Re: Tailplane torque tube troubles (Graham Singleton)
3. 05:03 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
4. 09:20 AM - Switch for Hobbs. (Mike Gamble)
5. 09:59 AM - Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Fred Klein)
6. 09:59 AM - Re: Tailplane torque tube troubles (Rob Housman)
7. 10:44 AM - William and Paul's fly-in, Shobdon, 5 May 2008 (David.Corbett)
8. 10:58 AM - Re: Switch for Hobbs. (Jeff B)
9. 11:07 AM - William and Paul's fly in (Steven Pitt)
10. 11:18 AM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (tony.bale@virgin.net)
11. 11:37 AM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (tony.bale@virgin.net)
12. 12:15 PM - Flap Hinge Arrangement (jimpuglise@comcast.net)
13. 12:15 PM - Flap Hinge Arrangement (jimpuglise@comcast.net)
14. 02:09 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (david miller)
15. 03:04 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (tony.bale@virgin.net)
16. 06:20 PM - Re: Flap Hinge Arrangement (Rick Stockton)
17. 06:21 PM - Re: Tailplane torque tube troubles (Rick Stockton)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
I'm not aware that the Europa tank is made of HDPE; which is actually highly
resistant to a wide range of chemicals, hence its widespread use as basal
liners to landfills.
I don't suppose the HDPE automotive tanks are rotary moulded either.
The Kitfox rotary moulded tanks were made of cross-linked LDPE, and I'd
presumed the Europa tanks were the same. LDPE has a "benefit" of being more
elastic than HDPE.
FWIW, I have the old style non-fluorinated tank. So far it hasn't bulged,
split or leaked. However, fuel permeation is noticeable, as it was on the
Kitfox too.
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:17 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
>
>
> On Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 13:22 US/Pacific, Alan Burrows wrote:
>
>> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel running
>> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting to
>> repair the old tank).
>
> Alan,
>
> Could you elaborate on the products and techniques used in your attempts
> to repair the old tank?
>
> I apologize for asking you to open old wounds, but your accounts may allow
> us to focus better on finding something that just might work.
>
> No doubt folks will tend towards solutions which address the situation in
> which they find themselves. For some, a metal tank will be the obvious
> solution. For someone w/ a bulging but no signs of a leak, another
> strategy may be persuasive. For myself, w/ an empty tank installed which
> has yet to smell any fuel, I'm looking hard for a "fill and drain" agent
> which I can slosh around the tank interior which will provide an
> impervious coating to keep fuel out of the HDPE and hence eliminate the
> tank expansion as fuel would be otherwise absorbed.
>
> Because of the widespread use of HDPE tanks in the automobile industry,
> and the relatively rapid evolution of both HDPE and fuel formulations, my
> hunch is that there are hundreds of thousands of HDPE tanks which are
> vulnerable to current and future fuel blends. If that is so, there will be
> huge need and market for precisely what I'm looking for.
>
> Cheers...as they say, "better living (and flying) thru chemistry"
>
> Fred
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Tailplane torque tube troubles |
Rick
loose plating might give you trouble with tailplane removal, the fit in
the tailplane bushes is quite tight.
Get it replaced or replated, that should not happen
Graham
Rick Stockton wrote:
> I installed the tail plane torque tube a couple of days ago and strayed
> it with AFS-50 then wiped it down with MEK. I noticed that the plating
> is flaking off on one side. I sent an E-mail to John asking him what he
> thinks I need to do.
>
> Are there any ideals? Have it replated, buy a new one?
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Duncan,
During this current thread, I introduced the assumption that the Europa
tanks are made of HDPE. Based on the extensive bulging some have
experienced, however, my source of much more knowledge than I possess
assumes it might be LDPE - which he in general does not find suitable for
gasoline containers. There are some unfortunate "Europeans" who can attest
to that - - - - .
As others have stated already, gasoline composition varies from brand to
brand, etc.
The fact that your non-fluorinated tank has not bulged is quite interesting.
What type of fuel have you used - unleaded mogas or leaded Avgas?
Regards
Svein
LN-SKJ
PS: EA2004 has not been open for business since I copied them one my
previous messages, asking their comments. Today is Bank Holiday in the UK.
> I'm not aware that the Europa tank is made of HDPE; which is actually
> highly resistant to a wide range of chemicals, hence its widespread use as
> basal liners to landfills.
> I don't suppose the HDPE automotive tanks are rotary moulded either.
>
> The Kitfox rotary moulded tanks were made of cross-linked LDPE, and I'd
> presumed the Europa tanks were the same. LDPE has a "benefit" of being
> more elastic than HDPE.
>
> FWIW, I have the old style non-fluorinated tank. So far it hasn't bulged,
> split or leaked. However, fuel permeation is noticeable, as it was on the
> Kitfox too.
>
> Duncan Mcf.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Switch for Hobbs. |
What are chaps using to switch their hobbs timer on with engine start?
Is there an alternative to the n/o oil pressure switch? - perhaps
sensing alternator output.
Thanks
Mike Gamble
Message 5
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| Subject: | Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
On Monday, May 5, 2008, at 00:30 US/Pacific, Duncan & Ami McFadyean
wrote:
> I'm not aware that the Europa tank is made of HDPE; which is actually
> highly resistant to a wide range of chemicals, hence its widespread
> use as basal liners to landfills.
> I don't suppose the HDPE automotive tanks are rotary moulded either.
Duncan,
My apologies...I incorrectly gathered from the thread that our tanks
were HDPE; hopefully, we'll learn soon enough for certain.
The article I referenced on 5/4,
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9607/Alvarado-9607.html#ToC7 ,
dated 1996, about HDPE tanks in automobiles, does mention "rotary style
blow-molding machines" which I took to be equivalent to the
"roto-molded" process mentioned in Europa literature; again, I may be
incorrect.
What struck me about the article was that back in 1996 in the auto
industry there was no consideration for the use of LDPE...and it
includes a nice synopsis of the evolving HDPE technology (barrier
coatings, mono vs. multi-layer), regulatory issues (permeability
standards), and fuel compatibility (methanol/ethanol, additives,
flex-fuel vehicles).
Fred
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| Subject: | Tailplane torque tube troubles |
My business is plating, including nickel plating. When electrodeposited
nickel does not adhere to the substrate it is indicative of inadequate
cleaning and activation of the substrate. DO NOT install any parts that
have the plated metal peeling because the problem will only get worse as
more material peels.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube troubles
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Rick
loose plating might give you trouble with tailplane removal, the fit in
the tailplane bushes is quite tight.
Get it replaced or replated, that should not happen
Graham
Rick Stockton wrote:
> I installed the tail plane torque tube a couple of days ago and strayed
> it with AFS-50 then wiped it down with MEK. I noticed that the plating
> is flaking off on one side. I sent an E-mail to John asking him what he
> thinks I need to do.
>
> Are there any ideals? Have it replated, buy a new one?
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
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| Subject: | William and Paul's fly-in, Shobdon, 5 May 2008 |
We were all set for a super fly-in today, in (supposedly) ever improving
weather as yesterday's front lying N/S over central England moved away to
the east. In the event, the BBC forecast at 2230 last night gave warning
that the front had decided to move back to the west.
The result was that at 0700, whilst it was 9999 and 5000' here at Shobdon,
there was a spike of heavy rain showing on the radar running N from the
Southampton area up to the Pennines. The telephone was mysteriously quiet,
until the first call at about 0930 from Trev Pond at Abbots Bromley
(Staffordshire) who said it was raining heavily there and that their grass
airfield was flooded.
Notwithstanding that weather situation, we eventually had 14 visiting
Europae, 1 builder in his Emeraude, and the two resident aircraft. Diana
Mills came and was in good form, and Laura Farmer came up from South Wales
with Paul's mother and step-father, and his twin sister, her husband, and
their 1 year old daughter.
Our longest travelled visitor was Jos Oskuisen, from North Finland (via
Lelystad and Popham), and the longest trip within UK was Justin and Fiona
Kennedy direct from (and back to) Perth. Others who made notable flights (at
least in today's grotty Midlands weather) were David and Marion Watts from
Laddingford, Andy and Michelle Fletcher from Beccles, Bob and Helen Gibbs
from Popham, Bob Harrison and Ivor Phillips from Wickenby, Bryan Allsop and
Bob Hitchcock from Coal Aston; Mark Collett and Ray Young came from
Dunkeswell, and the Scanlans from Eggesford. With some others from closer
airfields, and some by car, I calculate we had 34 Europa Club folk with us,
as well as Diana and Laura's party.
Thank you all who attended, and those who tried but had to turn back. I am
afraid that I took no photos; I had one aerial photo taken, but all that pic
shows is 13 Europa on a grass parking area - no atmosphere and not worth
circulating on the forum.
I will leave it to Paddy and Bryan to add any comments, and thoughts about
following up after today.
Thanks also to the team here at Shobdon, and to those of you who booked in
for earlier attempts but could not make either of the postponed dates.
Best wishes,
David
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Switch for Hobbs. |
Mike,
I used a standard marine ignition switch to supply current to the
starter, with rockers for the ignition circuit. The "run" side of the
ignition switch supplies power for the hobbs and the trim circuit breaker.
Jeff - Baby Blue
Mike Gamble wrote:
> What are chaps using to switch their hobbs timer on with engine start?
> Is there an alternative to the n/o oil pressure switch? - perhaps
> sensing alternator output.
> Thanks
> Mike Gamble
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Checked by AVG.
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| Subject: | William and Paul's fly in |
I hope this reaches the Europa list.
In Memoriam
Regards
Steve Pitt
Shobdon 004
Shobdon 011
Checked by AVG.
01 AM
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Davin,
After flying with fuel smell off and on for three years (tight turns and
decent indused the odour), two weeks ago we put a concerted effort into
fixing the problem. We blew down the breather and then blanked it off
pressurising the system, head inside the cockpit and it stunk of fuel. It
turned out that the redux joint around the top of the filler tube (inside)
was not 100%. We re sealed it and today I took it for a good test. Best
flight ever - no fuel fumes at all.
T.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: david miller loboloda@execulink.com
Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than
1%, I would imagine that
welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems.
Perhaps all that is required is for the factory to beef up the
existing design a little , and ensure that
the tanks are well flourinated.
I checked for fuel smells in the system by attaching a sniffer hose
to one side of my carbon
filter mask. Made for a good impression of an elephant, but I could
not find any trace of a leak.
I get a whiff of fuel while flying in turbulent air, seems to be
related to the tank venting onto the
fuselage, but I can't figure how it then finds its way into the cabin
- anyone have similar problems, or a
solution ?
Dave, C-FBZI
On 3-May-08, at 8:41 AM, UVTReith wrote:
>
>
> Europa Aircraft is offering a fuel sender as MOD 60.
> There are also a lot of other items they offer.
> It's always quite good to check their homepages www.europa-
> aircraft.biz
>
>
> Bruno Reith
> Europa Aircraft Germany
>
>
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
David,
After flying with fuel smell off and on for three years (tight turns and
decent indused the odour), two weeks ago we put a concerted effort into
fixing the problem. We blew down the breather and then blanked it off
pressurising the system, head inside the cockpit and it stunk of fuel. It
turned out that the redux joint around the top of the filler tube (inside)
was not 100%. We re sealed it and today I took it for a good test. Best
flight ever - no fuel fumes at all.
T.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: david miller loboloda@execulink.com
Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than
1%, I would imagine that
welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems.
Perhaps all that is required is for the factory to beef up the
existing design a little , and ensure that
the tanks are well flourinated.
I checked for fuel smells in the system by attaching a sniffer hose
to one side of my carbon
filter mask. Made for a good impression of an elephant, but I could
not find any trace of a leak.
I get a whiff of fuel while flying in turbulent air, seems to be
related to the tank venting onto the
fuselage, but I can't figure how it then finds its way into the cabin
- anyone have similar problems, or a
solution ?
Dave, C-FBZI
On 3-May-08, at 8:41 AM, UVTReith wrote:
>
>
> Europa Aircraft is offering a fuel sender as MOD 60.
> There are also a lot of other items they offer.
> It's always quite good to check their homepages www.europa-
> aircraft.biz
>
>
> Bruno Reith
> Europa Aircraft Germany
>
>
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Flap Hinge Arrangement |
I am fitting my flaps to my tri-gear wing. In page 9T-12, the manual specifies
an AN870-3 washer. I don't find a washer of this designation anywhere in my
kit. I do find an AN970-3, which looks like the correct washer. I also checked
the Europa 04 site for any corrections and tried to find AN870-3 washers at
AS and Wicks. No luck. Is this a misprint in the manual or am I missing some
parts?
Jim Puglise A-283
<html><body>
<DIV>I am fitting my flaps to my tri-gear wing. In page 9T-12, the manual
specifies an AN870-3 washer. I don't find a washer of this designation
anywhere in my kit. I do find an AN970-3, which looks like the correct washer.
I also checked the Europa 04 site for any corrections and tried to
find AN870-3 washers at AS and Wicks. No luck. Is this a misprint
in the manual or am I missing some parts?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim Puglise A-283</DIV>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Flap Hinge Arrangement |
I am fitting my flaps to my tri-gear wing. In page 9T-12, the manual specifies
an AN870-3 washer. I don't find a washer of this designation anywhere in my
kit. I do find an AN970-3, which looks like the correct washer. I also checked
the Europa 04 site for any corrections and tried to find AN870-3 washers at
AS and Wicks. No luck. Is this a misprint in the manual or am I missing some
parts?
Jim Puglise A-283
<html><body>
<DIV>I am fitting my flaps to my tri-gear wing. In page 9T-12, the manual
specifies an AN870-3 washer. I don't find a washer of this designation
anywhere in my kit. I do find an AN970-3, which looks like the correct washer.
I also checked the Europa 04 site for any corrections and tried to
find AN870-3 washers at AS and Wicks. No luck. Is this a misprint
in the manual or am I missing some parts?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim Puglise A-283</DIV>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
Thanks Tony,
I'll try that. I sealed the lowest hole on the rear of the breather,
this was right flush with the top of the
fuselage. was up today and things were a bit better, but still the
occasional whiff.
You are right, descending does tend to induce the smell.
Some builders, I think have re-located the vent to the bottom of the
fuselage?, perhaps this is another option.
On another note, after flying last week, I could not figure out why
the coolant had not returned from the overflow tank
to the system. I thought there must be a leak in the hose, but closer
inspection revealed that the rather flimsy gasket in the rad cap
had moved and was not sealing the system. One more thing to add to my
check list.
Dave
Do not archive
On 5-May-08, at 2:31 PM, tony.bale@virgin.net wrote:
> <tony.bale@virgin.net>
>
> David,
> After flying with fuel smell off and on for three years (tight
> turns and
> decent indused the odour), two weeks ago we put a concerted effort
> into
> fixing the problem. We blew down the breather and then blanked it off
> pressurising the system, head inside the cockpit and it stunk of
> fuel. It
> turned out that the redux joint around the top of the filler tube
> (inside)
> was not 100%. We re sealed it and today I took it for a good test.
> Best
> flight ever - no fuel fumes at all.
>
> T.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. |
David,
There has been much correspondence in the past on breathers, but the
obvious observation is watch for syphoning your hard earned fuel out the
bottom, and the donkey going quiet up front (funny stuff air pressure)!
T.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: david miller loboloda@execulink.com
Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
Thanks Tony,
I'll try that. I sealed the lowest hole on the rear of the breather,
this was right flush with the top of the
fuselage. was up today and things were a bit better, but still the
occasional whiff.
You are right, descending does tend to induce the smell.
Some builders, I think have re-located the vent to the bottom of the
fuselage?, perhaps this is another option.
On another note, after flying last week, I could not figure out why
the coolant had not returned from the overflow tank
to the system. I thought there must be a leak in the hose, but closer
inspection revealed that the rather flimsy gasket in the rad cap
had moved and was not sealing the system. One more thing to add to my
check list.
Dave
Do not archive
On 5-May-08, at 2:31 PM, tony.bale@virgin.net wrote:
> <tony.bale@virgin.net>
>
> David,
> After flying with fuel smell off and on for three years (tight
> turns and
> decent indused the odour), two weeks ago we put a concerted effort
> into
> fixing the problem. We blew down the breather and then blanked it off
> pressurising the system, head inside the cockpit and it stunk of
> fuel. It
> turned out that the redux joint around the top of the filler tube
> (inside)
> was not 100%. We re sealed it and today I took it for a good test.
> Best
> flight ever - no fuel fumes at all.
>
> T.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
>
>
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Flap Hinge Arrangement |
It's a misprint. I had the same problem in chapter 18.
jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote: I am fitting my flaps to my tri-gear wing. In
page 9T-12, the manual specifies an AN870-3 washer. I don't find a washer of
this designation anywhere in my kit. I do find an AN970-3, which looks like
the correct washer. I also checked the Europa 04 site for any corrections and
tried to find AN870-3 washers at AS and Wicks. No luck. Is this a misprint
in the manual or am I missing some parts?
Jim Puglise A-283
Message 17
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| Subject: | Tailplane torque tube troubles |
Thanks Rob, Yes, I know not to use it, but now what do I do. ?Get a new part from
England or have this one replated? Still waiting for John to get back to
me.
My business is plating, including nickel plating. When electrodeposited
nickel does not adhere to the substrate it is indicative of inadequate
cleaning and activation of the substrate. DO NOT install any parts that
have the plated metal peeling because the problem will only get worse as
more material peels.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube troubles
Rick
loose plating might give you trouble with tailplane removal, the fit in
the tailplane bushes is quite tight.
Get it replaced or replated, that should not happen
Graham
Rick Stockton wrote:
> I installed the tail plane torque tube a couple of days ago and strayed
> it with AFS-50 then wiped it down with MEK. I noticed that the plating
> is flaking off on one side. I sent an E-mail to John asking him what he
> thinks I need to do.
>
> Are there any ideals? Have it replated, buy a new one?
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Graham Singleton
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