---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/05/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:34 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 2. 12:40 AM - Re: Tailplane torque tube troubles (Graham Singleton) 3. 05:03 AM - Re: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 4. 09:20 AM - Switch for Hobbs. (Mike Gamble) 5. 09:59 AM - Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (Fred Klein) 6. 09:59 AM - Re: Tailplane torque tube troubles (Rob Housman) 7. 10:44 AM - William and Paul's fly-in, Shobdon, 5 May 2008 (David.Corbett) 8. 10:58 AM - Re: Switch for Hobbs. (Jeff B) 9. 11:07 AM - William and Paul's fly in (Steven Pitt) 10. 11:18 AM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (tony.bale@virgin.net) 11. 11:37 AM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (tony.bale@virgin.net) 12. 12:15 PM - Flap Hinge Arrangement (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 13. 12:15 PM - Flap Hinge Arrangement (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 14. 02:09 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (david miller) 15. 03:04 PM - Re: AW: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. (tony.bale@virgin.net) 16. 06:20 PM - Re: Flap Hinge Arrangement (Rick Stockton) 17. 06:21 PM - Re: Tailplane torque tube troubles (Rick Stockton) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:19 AM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. I'm not aware that the Europa tank is made of HDPE; which is actually highly resistant to a wide range of chemicals, hence its widespread use as basal liners to landfills. I don't suppose the HDPE automotive tanks are rotary moulded either. The Kitfox rotary moulded tanks were made of cross-linked LDPE, and I'd presumed the Europa tanks were the same. LDPE has a "benefit" of being more elastic than HDPE. FWIW, I have the old style non-fluorinated tank. So far it hasn't bulged, split or leaked. However, fuel permeation is noticeable, as it was on the Kitfox too. Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:17 AM Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. > > > On Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 13:22 US/Pacific, Alan Burrows wrote: > >> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel running >> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting to >> repair the old tank). > > Alan, > > Could you elaborate on the products and techniques used in your attempts > to repair the old tank? > > I apologize for asking you to open old wounds, but your accounts may allow > us to focus better on finding something that just might work. > > No doubt folks will tend towards solutions which address the situation in > which they find themselves. For some, a metal tank will be the obvious > solution. For someone w/ a bulging but no signs of a leak, another > strategy may be persuasive. For myself, w/ an empty tank installed which > has yet to smell any fuel, I'm looking hard for a "fill and drain" agent > which I can slosh around the tank interior which will provide an > impervious coating to keep fuel out of the HDPE and hence eliminate the > tank expansion as fuel would be otherwise absorbed. > > Because of the widespread use of HDPE tanks in the automobile industry, > and the relatively rapid evolution of both HDPE and fuel formulations, my > hunch is that there are hundreds of thousands of HDPE tanks which are > vulnerable to current and future fuel blends. If that is so, there will be > huge need and market for precisely what I'm looking for. > > Cheers...as they say, "better living (and flying) thru chemistry" > > Fred > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:59 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube troubles Rick loose plating might give you trouble with tailplane removal, the fit in the tailplane bushes is quite tight. Get it replaced or replated, that should not happen Graham Rick Stockton wrote: > I installed the tail plane torque tube a couple of days ago and strayed > it with AFS-50 then wiped it down with MEK. I noticed that the plating > is flaking off on one side. I sent an E-mail to John asking him what he > thinks I need to do. > > Are there any ideals? Have it replated, buy a new one? > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:20 AM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. Duncan, During this current thread, I introduced the assumption that the Europa tanks are made of HDPE. Based on the extensive bulging some have experienced, however, my source of much more knowledge than I possess assumes it might be LDPE - which he in general does not find suitable for gasoline containers. There are some unfortunate "Europeans" who can attest to that - - - - . As others have stated already, gasoline composition varies from brand to brand, etc. The fact that your non-fluorinated tank has not bulged is quite interesting. What type of fuel have you used - unleaded mogas or leaded Avgas? Regards Svein LN-SKJ PS: EA2004 has not been open for business since I copied them one my previous messages, asking their comments. Today is Bank Holiday in the UK. > I'm not aware that the Europa tank is made of HDPE; which is actually > highly resistant to a wide range of chemicals, hence its widespread use as > basal liners to landfills. > I don't suppose the HDPE automotive tanks are rotary moulded either. > > The Kitfox rotary moulded tanks were made of cross-linked LDPE, and I'd > presumed the Europa tanks were the same. LDPE has a "benefit" of being > more elastic than HDPE. > > FWIW, I have the old style non-fluorinated tank. So far it hasn't bulged, > split or leaked. However, fuel permeation is noticeable, as it was on the > Kitfox too. > > Duncan Mcf. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:08 AM PST US From: "Mike Gamble" Subject: Europa-List: Switch for Hobbs. What are chaps using to switch their hobbs timer on with engine start? Is there an alternative to the n/o oil pressure switch? - perhaps sensing alternator output. Thanks Mike Gamble ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:15 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. From: Fred Klein On Monday, May 5, 2008, at 00:30 US/Pacific, Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote: > I'm not aware that the Europa tank is made of HDPE; which is actually > highly resistant to a wide range of chemicals, hence its widespread > use as basal liners to landfills. > I don't suppose the HDPE automotive tanks are rotary moulded either. Duncan, My apologies...I incorrectly gathered from the thread that our tanks were HDPE; hopefully, we'll learn soon enough for certain. The article I referenced on 5/4, http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9607/Alvarado-9607.html#ToC7 , dated 1996, about HDPE tanks in automobiles, does mention "rotary style blow-molding machines" which I took to be equivalent to the "roto-molded" process mentioned in Europa literature; again, I may be incorrect. What struck me about the article was that back in 1996 in the auto industry there was no consideration for the use of LDPE...and it includes a nice synopsis of the evolving HDPE technology (barrier coatings, mono vs. multi-layer), regulatory issues (permeability standards), and fuel compatibility (methanol/ethanol, additives, flex-fuel vehicles). Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:25 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube troubles My business is plating, including nickel plating. When electrodeposited nickel does not adhere to the substrate it is indicative of inadequate cleaning and activation of the substrate. DO NOT install any parts that have the plated metal peeling because the problem will only get worse as more material peels. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:41 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube troubles Rick loose plating might give you trouble with tailplane removal, the fit in the tailplane bushes is quite tight. Get it replaced or replated, that should not happen Graham Rick Stockton wrote: > I installed the tail plane torque tube a couple of days ago and strayed > it with AFS-50 then wiped it down with MEK. I noticed that the plating > is flaking off on one side. I sent an E-mail to John asking him what he > thinks I need to do. > > Are there any ideals? Have it replated, buy a new one? > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:36 AM PST US From: "David.Corbett" Subject: Europa-List: William and Paul's fly-in, Shobdon, 5 May 2008 We were all set for a super fly-in today, in (supposedly) ever improving weather as yesterday's front lying N/S over central England moved away to the east. In the event, the BBC forecast at 2230 last night gave warning that the front had decided to move back to the west. The result was that at 0700, whilst it was 9999 and 5000' here at Shobdon, there was a spike of heavy rain showing on the radar running N from the Southampton area up to the Pennines. The telephone was mysteriously quiet, until the first call at about 0930 from Trev Pond at Abbots Bromley (Staffordshire) who said it was raining heavily there and that their grass airfield was flooded. Notwithstanding that weather situation, we eventually had 14 visiting Europae, 1 builder in his Emeraude, and the two resident aircraft. Diana Mills came and was in good form, and Laura Farmer came up from South Wales with Paul's mother and step-father, and his twin sister, her husband, and their 1 year old daughter. Our longest travelled visitor was Jos Oskuisen, from North Finland (via Lelystad and Popham), and the longest trip within UK was Justin and Fiona Kennedy direct from (and back to) Perth. Others who made notable flights (at least in today's grotty Midlands weather) were David and Marion Watts from Laddingford, Andy and Michelle Fletcher from Beccles, Bob and Helen Gibbs from Popham, Bob Harrison and Ivor Phillips from Wickenby, Bryan Allsop and Bob Hitchcock from Coal Aston; Mark Collett and Ray Young came from Dunkeswell, and the Scanlans from Eggesford. With some others from closer airfields, and some by car, I calculate we had 34 Europa Club folk with us, as well as Diana and Laura's party. Thank you all who attended, and those who tried but had to turn back. I am afraid that I took no photos; I had one aerial photo taken, but all that pic shows is 13 Europa on a grass parking area - no atmosphere and not worth circulating on the forum. I will leave it to Paddy and Bryan to add any comments, and thoughts about following up after today. Thanks also to the team here at Shobdon, and to those of you who booked in for earlier attempts but could not make either of the postponed dates. Best wishes, David ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:54 AM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Switch for Hobbs. Mike, I used a standard marine ignition switch to supply current to the starter, with rockers for the ignition circuit. The "run" side of the ignition switch supplies power for the hobbs and the trim circuit breaker. Jeff - Baby Blue Mike Gamble wrote: > What are chaps using to switch their hobbs timer on with engine start? > Is there an alternative to the n/o oil pressure switch? - perhaps > sensing alternator output. > Thanks > Mike Gamble > > * > > > * > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Checked by AVG. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:07:15 AM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Europa-List: William and Paul's fly in I hope this reaches the Europa list. In Memoriam Regards Steve Pitt Shobdon 004 Shobdon 011 Checked by AVG. 01 AM ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:53 AM PST US From: "tony.bale@virgin.net" Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. Davin, After flying with fuel smell off and on for three years (tight turns and decent indused the odour), two weeks ago we put a concerted effort into fixing the problem. We blew down the breather and then blanked it off pressurising the system, head inside the cockpit and it stunk of fuel. It turned out that the redux joint around the top of the filler tube (inside) was not 100%. We re sealed it and today I took it for a good test. Best flight ever - no fuel fumes at all. T. Original Message: ----------------- From: david miller loboloda@execulink.com Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than 1%, I would imagine that welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems. Perhaps all that is required is for the factory to beef up the existing design a little , and ensure that the tanks are well flourinated. I checked for fuel smells in the system by attaching a sniffer hose to one side of my carbon filter mask. Made for a good impression of an elephant, but I could not find any trace of a leak. I get a whiff of fuel while flying in turbulent air, seems to be related to the tank venting onto the fuselage, but I can't figure how it then finds its way into the cabin - anyone have similar problems, or a solution ? Dave, C-FBZI On 3-May-08, at 8:41 AM, UVTReith wrote: > > > Europa Aircraft is offering a fuel sender as MOD 60. > There are also a lot of other items they offer. > It's always quite good to check their homepages www.europa- > aircraft.biz > > > Bruno Reith > Europa Aircraft Germany > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft Windows and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:53 AM PST US From: "tony.bale@virgin.net" Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. David, After flying with fuel smell off and on for three years (tight turns and decent indused the odour), two weeks ago we put a concerted effort into fixing the problem. We blew down the breather and then blanked it off pressurising the system, head inside the cockpit and it stunk of fuel. It turned out that the redux joint around the top of the filler tube (inside) was not 100%. We re sealed it and today I took it for a good test. Best flight ever - no fuel fumes at all. T. Original Message: ----------------- From: david miller loboloda@execulink.com Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. It looks as if the failure rate for the plastic tanks is less than 1%, I would imagine that welded tanks will in time have their own share of problems. Perhaps all that is required is for the factory to beef up the existing design a little , and ensure that the tanks are well flourinated. I checked for fuel smells in the system by attaching a sniffer hose to one side of my carbon filter mask. Made for a good impression of an elephant, but I could not find any trace of a leak. I get a whiff of fuel while flying in turbulent air, seems to be related to the tank venting onto the fuselage, but I can't figure how it then finds its way into the cabin - anyone have similar problems, or a solution ? Dave, C-FBZI On 3-May-08, at 8:41 AM, UVTReith wrote: > > > Europa Aircraft is offering a fuel sender as MOD 60. > There are also a lot of other items they offer. > It's always quite good to check their homepages www.europa- > aircraft.biz > > > Bruno Reith > Europa Aircraft Germany > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:38 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Europa-List: Flap Hinge Arrangement I am fitting my flaps to my tri-gear wing. In page 9T-12, the manual specifies an AN870-3 washer. I don't find a washer of this designation anywhere in my kit. I do find an AN970-3, which looks like the correct washer. I also checked the Europa 04 site for any corrections and tried to find AN870-3 washers at AS and Wicks. No luck. Is this a misprint in the manual or am I missing some parts? Jim Puglise A-283
I am fitting my flaps to my tri-gear wing.  In page 9T-12, the manual specifies an AN870-3 washer.  I don't find a washer of this designation anywhere in my kit.  I do find an AN970-3, which looks like the correct washer.  I also checked the Europa 04 site for any corrections and tried to find AN870-3 washers at AS and Wicks.  No luck.  Is this a misprint in the manual or am I missing some parts?
 
Jim Puglise A-283
________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:46 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Europa-List: Flap Hinge Arrangement I am fitting my flaps to my tri-gear wing. In page 9T-12, the manual specifies an AN870-3 washer. I don't find a washer of this designation anywhere in my kit. I do find an AN970-3, which looks like the correct washer. I also checked the Europa 04 site for any corrections and tried to find AN870-3 washers at AS and Wicks. No luck. Is this a misprint in the manual or am I missing some parts? Jim Puglise A-283
I am fitting my flaps to my tri-gear wing.  In page 9T-12, the manual specifies an AN870-3 washer.  I don't find a washer of this designation anywhere in my kit.  I do find an AN970-3, which looks like the correct washer.  I also checked the Europa 04 site for any corrections and tried to find AN870-3 washers at AS and Wicks.  No luck.  Is this a misprint in the manual or am I missing some parts?
 
Jim Puglise A-283
________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:01 PM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. Thanks Tony, I'll try that. I sealed the lowest hole on the rear of the breather, this was right flush with the top of the fuselage. was up today and things were a bit better, but still the occasional whiff. You are right, descending does tend to induce the smell. Some builders, I think have re-located the vent to the bottom of the fuselage?, perhaps this is another option. On another note, after flying last week, I could not figure out why the coolant had not returned from the overflow tank to the system. I thought there must be a leak in the hose, but closer inspection revealed that the rather flimsy gasket in the rad cap had moved and was not sealing the system. One more thing to add to my check list. Dave Do not archive On 5-May-08, at 2:31 PM, tony.bale@virgin.net wrote: > > > David, > After flying with fuel smell off and on for three years (tight > turns and > decent indused the odour), two weeks ago we put a concerted effort > into > fixing the problem. We blew down the breather and then blanked it off > pressurising the system, head inside the cockpit and it stunk of > fuel. It > turned out that the redux joint around the top of the filler tube > (inside) > was not 100%. We re sealed it and today I took it for a good test. > Best > flight ever - no fuel fumes at all. > > T. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:02 PM PST US From: "tony.bale@virgin.net" Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. David, There has been much correspondence in the past on breathers, but the obvious observation is watch for syphoning your hard earned fuel out the bottom, and the donkey going quiet up front (funny stuff air pressure)! T. Original Message: ----------------- From: david miller loboloda@execulink.com Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage. Thanks Tony, I'll try that. I sealed the lowest hole on the rear of the breather, this was right flush with the top of the fuselage. was up today and things were a bit better, but still the occasional whiff. You are right, descending does tend to induce the smell. Some builders, I think have re-located the vent to the bottom of the fuselage?, perhaps this is another option. On another note, after flying last week, I could not figure out why the coolant had not returned from the overflow tank to the system. I thought there must be a leak in the hose, but closer inspection revealed that the rather flimsy gasket in the rad cap had moved and was not sealing the system. One more thing to add to my check list. Dave Do not archive On 5-May-08, at 2:31 PM, tony.bale@virgin.net wrote: > > > David, > After flying with fuel smell off and on for three years (tight > turns and > decent indused the odour), two weeks ago we put a concerted effort > into > fixing the problem. We blew down the breather and then blanked it off > pressurising the system, head inside the cockpit and it stunk of > fuel. It > turned out that the redux joint around the top of the filler tube > (inside) > was not 100%. We re sealed it and today I took it for a good test. > Best > flight ever - no fuel fumes at all. > > T. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:15 PM PST US From: Rick Stockton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap Hinge Arrangement It's a misprint. I had the same problem in chapter 18. jimpuglise@comcast.net wrote: I am fitting my flaps to my tri-gear wing. In page 9T-12, the manual specifies an AN870-3 washer. I don't find a washer of this designation anywhere in my kit. I do find an AN970-3, which looks like the correct washer. I also checked the Europa 04 site for any corrections and tried to find AN870-3 washers at AS and Wicks. No luck. Is this a misprint in the manual or am I missing some parts? Jim Puglise A-283 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:45 PM PST US From: Rick Stockton Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube troubles Thanks Rob, Yes, I know not to use it, but now what do I do. ?Get a new part from England or have this one replated? Still waiting for John to get back to me. My business is plating, including nickel plating. When electrodeposited nickel does not adhere to the substrate it is indicative of inadequate cleaning and activation of the substrate. DO NOT install any parts that have the plated metal peeling because the problem will only get worse as more material peels. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:41 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane torque tube troubles Rick loose plating might give you trouble with tailplane removal, the fit in the tailplane bushes is quite tight. Get it replaced or replated, that should not happen Graham Rick Stockton wrote: > I installed the tail plane torque tube a couple of days ago and strayed > it with AFS-50 then wiped it down with MEK. I noticed that the plating > is flaking off on one side. I sent an E-mail to John asking him what he > thinks I need to do. > > Are there any ideals? Have it replated, buy a new one? > > * > > > * -- Graham Singleton Tel: +441629820187 Mob: +447739582005 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.