---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/09/08: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:46 AM - AOA probe design (William Harrison) 2. 02:17 AM - Wheel rub (p-a.austin) 3. 02:53 AM - Re: Wheel rub (Robert C Harrison) 4. 03:39 AM - AAIB report G-HOFC (David.Corbett) 5. 04:39 AM - Re: AOA probe design (Rowland Carson) 6. 05:28 AM - Re: Re: AW: Switch for Hobbs. (Rowland Carson) 7. 06:56 AM - Re: AOA probe design (William Harrison) 8. 07:11 AM - Re: Fuel Sight Gague Tubing (david miller) 9. 10:06 AM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 10. 10:19 AM - Re: AW: Switch for Hobbs. (rampil) 11. 10:47 AM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (Karl Heindl) 12. 10:57 AM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (David Watts) 13. 11:02 AM - For Sale - Skyforce Skymap IIIC - NEW - Latest Database (Matt Dralle) 14. 11:20 AM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (rampil) 15. 12:32 PM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 16. 01:37 PM - Re: AOA probe design () 17. 02:26 PM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (David Joyce) 18. 02:59 PM - For Sale - RMI uEncoder - NEW - Assembled (Matt Dralle) 19. 03:40 PM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (Duncan & Ami McFadyean) 20. 03:47 PM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (Trevpond@aol.com) 21. 03:59 PM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (Trevpond@aol.com) 22. 11:03 PM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (William Harrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:52 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Europa-List: AOA probe design Folks, I am looking for a sensible AOA probe to feed my Dynon D100. The Dynon probe is ghastly - very big and heavy so I won't use that. I can't see what's wrong with a small, light weight probe based on the same principle, ie an angled face with a hole in it. Has anyone else designed their own and if so how well did it work? Anyone know of a good off the shelf probe suitable for the Dynon? Many thanks Willie Harrison G-BZNY - a plane about to be reborn after an 700 hour rebuild.... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:59 AM PST US From: "p-a.austin" Subject: Europa-List: Wheel rub Replaced the wheel barrow tyre with an Airtrak prior to first flight, there was clearance between the tyre sidewall and forks then, albeit small, now find after 7 hours and 24 cycles the tyre is now lightly rubbing against the forks. This subject, from memory has been raised on here before, cannot fully remember the fix, would someone be kind enough to reiterate their proven procedure. Regards Peter #198 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:25 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wheel rub Hi! Peter Sounds like a slightly bigger spacer washer is needed.? Regards Bob Harrison.G_PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of p-a.austin Sent: 09 May 2008 10:13 Subject: Europa-List: Wheel rub Replaced the wheel barrow tyre with an Airtrak prior to first flight, there was clearance between the tyre sidewall and forks then, albeit small, now find after 7 hours and 24 cycles the tyre is now lightly rubbing against the forks. This subject, from memory has been raised on here before, cannot fully remember the fix, would someone be kind enough to reiterate their proven procedure. Regards Peter #198 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:31 AM PST US From: "David.Corbett" Subject: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC The report into the accident to G-HOFC was published by AAIB yesterday. Go to: www.aaib.dft.gov.uk and look in the May 2008 Bulletin link. David ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:03 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: AOA probe design At 2008-05-09 08:42 +0100 William Harrison wrote: >I am looking for a sensible AOA probe to feed my Dynon D100. The >Dynon probe is ghastly - very big and heavy so I won't use that. > >I can't see what's wrong with a small, light weight probe based on >the same principle, ie an angled face with a hole in it. Has anyone >else designed their own and if so how well did it work? > >Anyone know of a good off the shelf probe suitable for the Dynon I don't know of an off-the shelf probe, but I wonder if something like the attached PDF would do the trick. Any half-competent machine shop should be able to produce a similar item, even scaled down a bit if thought desirable. I found the file in my "AOA" folder and I'm afraid I don't know where I got it, although the "airsoob" part of the filename is probably a clue. regards Rowland -- | Wilma & Rowland Carson http://home.clara.net/rowil/ | ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:53 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: AW: Switch for Hobbs. At 2008-05-07 16:12 -0700 rampil wrote: >The simplest device requiring no connections at all is the vibration- >sensitive timer made by ENM Ira - sounds great ... then I realised that there is no way to turn it off, and so it will probably record road time in the trailer for me as well as air time! regards Rowland -- | Wilma & Rowland Carson http://home.clara.net/rowil/ | ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:13 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: AOA probe design Many thanks, Roland, that's very helpful. Best wishes Willie On 9 May 2008, at 12:25, Rowland Carson wrote: > At 2008-05-09 08:42 +0100 William Harrison wrote: > >> I am looking for a sensible AOA probe to feed my Dynon D100. The >> Dynon probe is ghastly - very big and heavy so I won't use that. >> >> I can't see what's wrong with a small, light weight probe based on >> the same principle, ie an angled face with a hole in it. Has >> anyone else designed their own and if so how well did it work? >> >> Anyone know of a good off the shelf probe suitable for the Dynon > > I don't know of an off-the shelf probe, but I wonder if something > like the attached PDF would do the trick. Any half-competent > machine shop should be able to produce a similar item, even scaled > down a bit if thought desirable. > > I found the file in my "AOA" folder and I'm afraid I don't know > where I got it, although the "airsoob" part of the filename is > probably a clue. > > regards > > Rowland > -- > 'w' ... ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:47 AM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel Sight Gague Tubing Jim & Heather. I've had no luck with any of the flexible plastic tubing. As far as possible, I have replaced it with auto fuel injector hose. Aircraft Spruce list clear PVC pipe, used in Quickie as fuel level gauge, p/n 03-54100, however the diameter is larger, and I could not see an easy way of plumbing it in without risking a further source of fuel leakage. Dave On 8-May-08, at 2:16 PM, h&jeuropa wrote: > > During the repair of our Europa, I replaced the fuel system tubing > and sight gauge tubing which was original. It was getting hard and > discolored. I used Tygon F4040 tubing which the data sheet says is > gasoline tolerent. > > After doing all that, I had reason to inspect a section of Tygon > F4040 that serves as the siphon hose in the main fuel tank when the > Europa Aux fuel tank is fitted. That Tygon was discolored and > quite hard after being in place for a couple of years. This is > making me wonder about my use of it elsewhere in the fuel system. > > What tubing have others used with success for fuel tank venting and > fuel sight gauge? > > Thanks > > Jim & Heather > N241BW > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181965#181965 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:47 AM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC After reading the report I am left not fully understanding which came first.....thus causing the second. Did the rear lift/drag pin of the right wing fail, causing enough up and down movement to overstress the tailplane enough for it to disengage from the tailplane drive pins, causing significant up and down gyrations to cause the further and final failure of the right wing? Or did the tailplane disengaging cause the failure of the right wing rear lift/drag pin? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300A Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:25 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: AW: Switch for Hobbs. From: "rampil" Rowland, That could well be a problem. There actually a loop of wire in the back of the meter which you cut to activate the timer. You could splice in a switch to detect wings on, airspeed>60, etc. If trailering is frequent though, I'd look for a different solution. N224xs lives in a hangar far from my old earthquake shaken home of KSQL -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182211#182211 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:37 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC I think the report is very detailed. The failure of the drag pin caused the whole scenario. The tailplanes had nothing to do with it. But who knows, i f the tailplanes had remained in place, would a survivable crash landing be en possible ? Karl
From: DuaneFamly@aol.comDate: Fri, 9 May 2008 13:01:12 -0400Subject: Re: Eu ropa-List: AAIB report G-HOFCTo: europa-list@matronics.com After reading the report I am left not fully understanding which came first .....thus causing the second. Did the rear lift/drag pin of the right wing fail, causing enough up and do wn movement to overstress the tailplane enough for it to disengage from the tailplane drive pins, causing significant up and down gyrations to cause t he further and final failure of the right wing? Or did the tailplane disengaging cause the failure of the right wing rear l ift/drag pin? Mike Duane A207ARedding, CaliforniaXS Conventional GearJabiru 3300ASensenic h R64Z NGround Adjustable Prop Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:44 AM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC Mike, I know that for some time now the AAIB and the PFA/LAA have been looking at the failure of the right hand wing rear drag pin being the cause of the accident and you can certainly read that into the report, but I agree that it does take some reading to figure it all out. Dave Watts G-BXDY ----- Original Message ----- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC After reading the report I am left not fully understanding which came first.....thus causing the second. Did the rear lift/drag pin of the right wing fail, causing enough up and down movement to overstress the tailplane enough for it to disengage from the tailplane drive pins, causing significant up and down gyrations to cause the further and final failure of the right wing? Or did the tailplane disengaging cause the failure of the right wing rear lift/drag pin? Mike Duane A207A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:45 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: For Sale - Skyforce Skymap IIIC - NEW - Latest Database Dear Listers, I am selling a new-in-box Skyforce Skymap IIIC full color GPS moving map with Topo. The database and firmware were just upgraded 05/2008. Includes a Panel Mounting bracket, GPS Antenna, cigarette lighter adapter, carrying case, and all manuals. Brand new, never used. No scratches. The pictures below are of the actual unit. The LCD color display on the IIIC is extremely nice and very bright. Gives altitude readout. RS232 output. I have over $2500 invested in this complete system. I will sell it for $2200 plus shipping to anywhere in the world. I can accept Visa/MC. First come, first served. Please email me off list at dralle@matronics.com if you are interested. Matt Dralle List Admin / RV-4 Builder 1ea - Skyforce Skymap IIIC w/ GPS and Americas Database. . .$2367.00 . .$2367.00 1ea - Panel Mount. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$98.00 . . .$98.00 1ea - Firmware and Database Update 5/8/2008. . . . . . . . . .$50.00 . . .$50.00 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $2515.00 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:03 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: AAIB report G-HOFC From: "rampil" Karl, I don't see how failure of the drag pin leading to flap flutter and dissolution of the wing would have been survivable in case. -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182241#182241 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:33 PM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC Chicken or egg? I think that was the underlyng conclusion (i.e. they don't know) although the BBC has interpreted in its news 'report' that it was the wing pin failure that caused the aeroplane to crash; which in a way is true, but possibly an oversimplification. The AAIB report has the flavour of having been poorly drafted, then amended a number of times by a number of other people. Either way, the report uses the would "if" a lot of times and the word "would" where one would expect "could". But otherwise it would read even more speculatively. DuncanMcF do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC After reading the report I am left not fully understanding which came first.....thus causing the second. Did the rear lift/drag pin of the right wing fail, causing enough up and down movement to overstress the tailplane enough for it to disengage from the tailplane drive pins, causing significant up and down gyrations to cause the further and final failure of the right wing? Or did the tailplane disengaging cause the failure of the right wing rear lift/drag pin? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300A Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: AOA probe design From: Have a look at my Homegrown AOA at: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Begin-06-2003&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php under: Homegrown AOA. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:20 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC Duncan, I disagree. I think the report reads as a very well thought out account of detailed detective work, and that the conclusion that the wing lift pin failure was the primary cause is entirely convincing. I would rather have believed that the tail was the primary problem, but the lack of metallurgical or other evidence of tailplane flutter, together with the findings of the opened up holes in the outer alloy plates securing the Right lift/drag pin, is enough to convince me. Having said that I don't feel that a prolonged discussion of the minutiae of the report will be a great help to William and Paul's relatives. Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:28 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC Chicken or egg? I think that was the underlyng conclusion (i.e. they don't know) although the BBC has interpreted in its news 'report' that it was the wing pin failure that caused the aeroplane to crash; which in a way is true, but possibly an oversimplification. The AAIB report has the flavour of having been poorly drafted, then amended a number of times by a number of other people. Either way, the report uses the would "if" a lot of times and the word "would" where one would expect "could". But otherwise it would read even more speculatively. DuncanMcF do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: DuaneFamly@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC After reading the report I am left not fully understanding which came first.....thus causing the second. Did the rear lift/drag pin of the right wing fail, causing enough up and down movement to overstress the tailplane enough for it to disengage from the tailplane drive pins, causing significant up and down gyrations to cause the further and final failure of the right wing? Or did the tailplane disengaging cause the failure of the right wing rear lift/drag pin? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300A Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:16 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: For Sale - RMI uEncoder - NEW - Assembled Dear Listers, I am selling a new, never used, fully assembled RMI uEncoder. The uEncoder just had all of the latest hardware and software updates factory installed including the new high contrast LCD display supporting Fahrenheit temp readings AND the new LED fiberoptic backlight. The uEncoder displays airspeed, altitude, fpm, OAT, and outputs Mode C data for most transponders. The uEncoder is in new condition with no scratches and all installation material and manuals. The pictures below are of the actual unit for sale. The table below lists all of the items included. I have nearly $1500 invested in this complete system. I will sell it for $1100 plus shipping to anywhere in the world. I can accept Visa/MC. First come, first served. Please email me off list at dralle@matronics.com if you are interested. Matt Dralle List Admin / RV-4 Builder 1ea - RMI microENCODER ASSEMBLED . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$1179.00 . $1179.00 1ea - RMI Factory Upgrade of LCD (Fahrenheit Temp, US Miles), . . . . . . Fiberoptic LED Backlight, Latest Firmware . . . . . $ 315.00 . $ 315.00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$1494.00 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:16 PM PST US From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC David, <<...prolonged discussion of the > minutiae of the report will be a great help to William and Paul's > relatives. ...>> I agree with that. Rgds., Duncan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Joyce" Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC > > > Duncan, I disagree. I think the report reads as a very well thought out > account of detailed detective work, and that the conclusion that the wing > lift pin failure was the primary cause is entirely convincing. I would > rather have believed that the tail was the primary problem, but the lack > of metallurgical or other evidence of tailplane flutter, together with the > findings of the opened up holes in the outer alloy plates securing the > Right lift/drag pin, is enough to convince me. > Having said that I don't feel that a prolonged discussion of the > minutiae of the report will be a great help to William and Paul's > relatives. > Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Duncan & Ami McFadyean" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:28 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC > > > Chicken or egg? > I think that was the underlyng conclusion (i.e. they don't know) although > the BBC has interpreted in its news 'report' that it was the wing pin > failure that caused the aeroplane to crash; which in a way is true, but > possibly an oversimplification. > > The AAIB report has the flavour of having been poorly drafted, then > amended a number of times by a number of other people. Either way, the > report uses the would "if" a lot of times and the word "would" where one > would expect "could". But otherwise it would read even more speculatively. > > DuncanMcF > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: DuaneFamly@aol.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:01 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC > > > After reading the report I am left not fully understanding which came > first.....thus causing the second. > > Did the rear lift/drag pin of the right wing fail, causing enough up and > down movement to overstress the tailplane enough for it to disengage from > the tailplane drive pins, causing significant up and down gyrations to > cause the further and final failure of the right wing? > > Or did the tailplane disengaging cause the failure of the right wing rear > lift/drag pin? > > > Mike Duane A207A > Redding, California > XS Conventional Gear > Jabiru 3300A > Sensenich R64Z N > Ground Adjustable Prop > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites > at AOL Food. > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:18 PM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:11 PM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC I don't believe that the experts, the AAIB, publish these reports lightly - and I certainly don't think that their findings should be queried on this site by a lot of people who think they know better.. If you want to talk about it do it verbally, but out of respect for William and Paul's relatives, leave it out of print. Trev Pond G-LINN ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:28 PM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC I visited the AAIB a few weeks ago and by chance got to speak to the lead inspector on G-HOFC. He was very clear that it was the wing drag/ lift pin which initiated the break up and they had abandoned their earlier hypothesis that the tail failed first.. Also, I'd have to add how utterly sobering it was to look at the wreckage - if you set out to cut a Europa into so many pieces with a chainsaw it would be a day's work. Willie On 9 May 2008, at 18:01, DuaneFamly@aol.com wrote: > After reading the report I am left not fully understanding which > came first.....thus causing the second. > > Did the rear lift/drag pin of the right wing fail, causing enough > up and down movement to overstress the tailplane enough for it to > disengage from the tailplane drive pins, causing significant up and > down gyrations to cause the further and final failure of the right > wing? > > Or did the tailplane disengaging cause the failure of the right > wing rear lift/drag pin? > > > Mike Duane A207A > Redding, California > XS Conventional Gear > Jabiru 3300A > Sensenich R64Z N > Ground Adjustable Prop > > > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family > favorites at AOL Food. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.