---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/10/08: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:53 AM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (josok) 2. 01:07 AM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (Carl Pattinson) 3. 02:40 AM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (Robert C Harrison) 4. 03:53 AM - Europa safety and the LAA (Carl Pattinson) 5. 05:43 AM - Re PVC sight gauge (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 6. 06:27 AM - Re: Re PVC sight gauge-- John (EuropaXSA276@aol.com) 7. 07:13 AM - Re: Europa safety and the LAA (josok) 8. 09:10 AM - Re: Door bulge because of seal (Steve Hagar) 9. 12:42 PM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 10. 12:57 PM - Re: Re PVC sight gauge (david miller) 11. 01:27 PM - Re: AAIB report G-HOFC (David Watts) 12. 11:23 PM - Calling Dale Hetrick (Robert C Harrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:53:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC From: "josok" With all respect to the AAIB and all others involved, i have difficulties understanding the bearing of the report. Since there are a lot of flying Europa's, mine being one of them, i would prefer to ask explanation and remaining questions to be answered, even if this keeps wounds open. Witnesses saw and heard the plane. How many witnesses and where were they standing? The radar had a possible bird echo. Have any of the witnesses seen a flock of birds and the plane trying to avoid them? Has the question been asked to them? The plane was inspected and given the green signal just before the accident. The paperwork was excellent. Does that mean the obligatory VNE dive had already been done that day? There is no validation in the report about the quality of the inspection, although the plane broke up shortly after. There is no recommendation for improvement of these inspections, other then a case triggered inspection on the points involved. I have seen only a few PFA inspected builds and planes myself, and some of them had obvious build and or repair AND inspection failures. There seems to be a culture of trying to keep problems under the table and out of sight. This all makes me wonder where the responsibilities are and should be. Others have landed with disengaged anti-trim-tab lift pins, although the forces were excessive. However, disengaged trim tabs are not taken in account as the failure triggering event. Did i miss the reasoning behind that? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:01 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC Whilst it is understandable we should all want to get at the truth, endless debate is pointless and (as has been said) is distressing to William and Pauls friends and relatives. In the aftermath of the accident the subject was discussed at length here and many of us came to a similar conclusion to the one the AAIB has now reached. Now that it has been published, their report leaves leave little room for doubt although the precise details we will never know. It would be better if those who feel the need to discuss this matter further do so in private (ie: not on a public forum). Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: William Harrison To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 6:58 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC I visited the AAIB a few weeks ago and by chance got to speak to the lead inspector on G-HOFC. He was very clear that it was the wing drag/lift pin which initiated the break up and they had abandoned their earlier hypothesis that the tail failed first.. Also, I'd have to add how utterly sobering it was to look at the wreckage - if you set out to cut a Europa into so many pieces with a chainsaw it would be a day's work. Willie On 9 May 2008, at 18:01, DuaneFamly@aol.com wrote: After reading the report I am left not fully understanding which came first.....thus causing the second. Did the rear lift/drag pin of the right wing fail, causing enough up and down movement to overstress the tailplane enough for it to disengage from the tailplane drive pins, causing significant up and down gyrations to cause the further and final failure of the right wing? Or did the tailplane disengaging cause the failure of the right wing rear lift/drag pin? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300A Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Europa-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:15 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC Hi!Jos/all I agree with Jos. However I too would wish no further grief be subjected to the bereaved relatives who have shown great composure to even want to ever see another damn Europa. In the meantime I do not agree that further discussion should be banned, but perhaps should continue under private communication, not in the general public domain. We all have a considerable investment in our aircraft and so have a vested interest financially as well as personal safety to consider, along with our own relatives concerns. Not withstanding that the potential to save further loss of life should be the automatic driving force of any such debate. In the absence of any Europa Club committee proposals I am prepared to be involved privately in running an e-mail address list of parties who declare a wish to conduct discussion. I and another Europa Builder/Engineer have some information which I wish to explore and eliminate which is very relevant to the questions in hand. Should the Europa Club Committee have any wish to countermand my statement or offer any alternative (which I would respect) then :- May I be presumptious that people wishing to debate this position further please clearly declare an interest and e-mail me at :- ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok Sent: 10 May 2008 08:50 Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:24 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: Europa safety and the LAA I have changed the title of this thread for obvious reasons but also because the argument seems to be about how safe our Europas are and how dilligent and thorough the PFA and their inspectors are. The AAIB report merely highlights the issue which I for one believe dosent exist. > With all respect to the AAIB and all others involved, i have difficulties > understanding the bearing of the report. Since there are a lot of flying > Europa's, mine being one of them, i would prefer to ask explanation and > remaining questions to be answered, even if this keeps wounds open. The AIIB have made it very clear that whilst their remit is not to apportion blame, that there was no fault either on the owners, the inspector or the PFA' part and that the cause of the failure (ie: poor build quality) could not have been identified after the build by the inspectors concerned or on subsequent inspections. It is even possible that the original builder was unaware of the error he had made. I have read the report several times and it would seem to me that they have left no stone unturned and explored every possible reason for this catastrophe. > There is no validation in the report about the quality of the inspection, > although the plane broke up shortly after. This comment verges on slander - sorry but I cant put it any other way. I am sure you didnt intend it but thats how it comes accross. My initial reaction is where is your evidence of a culture of cover ups. Most PFA inspectors take their roles very seriously and there is no reason whatsoever to suggest that the annual inspection was in any way sub standard (this seems to be what your comment implies). My understanding is that no one knows whether the flight test took place. I assumed at the time of the accident that the flight test could have been conducted during the return flight home as this is the usual practice with annual inspections (ie: the next flight after inspection). The report does not say that the flight test was conducted at Bodmin (after the inspection) but equally the AAIB have not said if notes/ documentation (ie: the flight test schedule) were found in the wreckage. I think it is safe to assume that if there were notes this would have been mentioned in the AAIB report. >There is no recommendation for improvement of these inspections, other then >a case triggered inspection on the points involved. I have seen only a few > >PFA inspected builds and planes myself, and some of them had obvious build >and or repair AND inspection failures. There seems to be a culture of >trying >to keep problems under the table and out of sight. This all makes >me wonder where the responsibilities are and should be. I cannot believe you are unaware of Mods 73 and 74 (and the grounding/ restrictions imposed on the entire Europa fleet) . Hardly what I would describe as keeping problems under the table. As regards the Europa fleet the PFA has a list of potential problems/ issues which inspectors should pay particular attention to whan carrying out inspections. The follow up/ safety actions are described at the end of the AAIB report and IMHO would appear to be entirely suitable. > > Others have landed with disengaged anti-trim-tab lift pins, although the > forces were excessive. However, disengaged trim tabs are not taken in > account as the failure triggering event. Did i miss the reasoning behind > that? It is interesting to note that you say LANDING with the tab disconnected. This dosent usually occurr unless you TAKE OFF with them disconnected (which I have done !!!). There have been no reports I am aware of that have ever described this happening in flight (ie: disconnection). As has been stated in the report even if they had been disconnected this would not have made the aircraft uncontrollable. Perhaps you could rephrase your concerns/ issues without reference to the accident/ report as in your own words this has no bearing on the subject. (ie: What specifically are the "remaining unanswered questions") Carl Pattinson G-LABS > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:22 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Re PVC sight gauge In a message dated 5/10/2008 3:00:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: Aircraft Spruce list clear PVC pipe, used in Quickie as fuel level gauge, p/n 03-54100, however the diameter is larger, and I could not see an easy way of plumbing it in without risking a further source of fuel leakage. Hey Dave, I used 1/2" clear rigid PVC for my sight gauge. I located it on the rear side of the backrest near the fuel filler. I threaded the PVC tubing with a 1/8" NPT, then fitted 1/8" 90 degree AN fittings to accept injector rated fuel lines. The threads are sealed with "Bakerseal" thread compound. After nearly two years with constant contact with fuel and the tubing still is clear and it doesn't leak a drop. In this location, it's easily visible from outside when refueling. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Currently down for cowl changes **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:36 AM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re PVC sight gauge-- John Hi John. I would love to see photos of this sight gage along with a description of your venting. Brian Skelly North Texas USA Europa XS A276 See my build photos at _www.europaowners.org/BrianS_ (http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS) **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa safety and the LAA From: "josok" [quote:64771ad5e2="carl at flyers.freeser..."] This comment verges on slander - sorry but I cant put it any other way. I am sure you didn't intend it but that's how it comes across. My initial reaction is where is your evidence of a culture of cover ups. Most PFA inspectors take their roles very seriously and there is no reason whatsoever to suggest that the annual inspection was in any way sub standard (this seems to be what your comment implies). [/quote:64771ad5e2] It's not the first time that i have to apologize for speaking the language, but not being able to pack the words to a sociable acceptable level. I should also have explained here that i like to simplify things to the black box theory. What's going in and what's coming out. In the inspection box goes an excellent airplane, well maintained, well flown. Out comes a plane that disintegrates in mid-air. That justifies the conclusion that the inspection box, is not working as it should. Please, bear with me, this is not an attempt to blame one inspection or one inspector. The real question is what can we do to improve the standard of the inspection during the build, after the build, and during the lifetime of the airframe. As i said before, in the little exposure i have had to PFA builds, i have been pointed by re-builders to inspected and signed of parts and planes that should have been rejected. Some people who know me will nod their head now, in silence. That as an explanation for my wondering about the keeping silent about clear mistakes. [quote:64771ad5e2] I cannot believe you are unaware of Mods 73 and 74 (and the grounding/ restrictions imposed on the entire Europa fleet) . Hardly what I would describe as keeping problems under the table. As regards the Europa fleet the PFA has a list of potential problems/ issues which inspectors should pay particular attention to whan carrying out inspections. [/quote:64771ad5e2] I cannot believe that that list of potential problems/issues that the inspectors have is not publicly available. Or did i miss it? This could be the kind of information that could save lives in other countries, where the safety of the aircraft is primarily in the hand of the owners. Are the results of build- and yearly inspections (de-personalized) in any form available? Again, this would be a very useful tool to have. [quote:64771ad5e2] It is interesting to note that you say LANDING with the tab disconnected. This dosent usually occurr unless you TAKE OFF with them disconnected (which I have done !!!). There have been no reports I am aware of that have ever described this happening in flight (ie: disconnection). As has been stated in the report even if they had been disconnected this would not have made the aircraft uncontrollable. [/quote:64771ad5e2] Thanks for this knowledge. So far i had assumed that without the control tabs connected the plane would not be flyable, hence not be able to land. Little additions to the knowledge base like this make the trouble of reading and writing here worth while. Now back to the unanswered questions: If a trim tab pin would have rested on the T bar, and would during the flight drop past it, inducing a Pilot Induced Oscillation, be able to start the disaster? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:50 AM PST US From: "Steve Hagar" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Door bulge because of seal My seals made the door buldge so I didn't use them and was going to install some automotive type "half D" rubber seals. I had gotten anxious for the first flight and had not bothered to install my substitute. The cockpit was just fine without any seals at all on my doors, no drafts have been discernable through the door interfaces in 25 hours of flight. However I made sure of a good fitup of the doors during the build. The shoot bolts pull the doors in smartly when actuated. There are many configurations of automotive door and or window seals at body shop or restoration supply houses. Semi -circle profile rubber o ring is available in 1/4, 3/8, or 1/2" dia so you can tailer the tightness or degree of buldge you are willing to accept. Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ > [Original Message] > From: craig bastin > To: > Date: 5/7/2008 8:40:00 PM > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Door bulge because of seal > > > without the seals the doors are sweet, nice and true, flush all round, its > only now the seal is on, that the door bulges, > its almost like the seal is too hard and is deforming the door. > > craig > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred Klein > Sent: Thursday, 8 May 2008 1:01 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Door bulge because of seal > > > > > On Wednesday, May 7, 2008, at 18:08 US/Pacific, craig bastin wrote: > > > > Can anyone tell me if they had issues with the doors bulging because > > of the > > seals > > the doors bulge about 5mm in the middle because of the door seals. > > Craig, > > Both my doors bulge about 3 mm at the center of the lower edge; this is > w/o the seals or plexi. > I've yet to do a trial fit with the seals. > > Bud Yerly advised use of a heat gun to reduce the bow and eliminate the > bulge, saying that proper fit before installing glass is essential, > otherwise getting proper fit WITH the glass is quite difficult. > > Fred > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > Checked by AVG. > 5:23 PM > > Checked by AVG. > 5:23 PM > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:10 PM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC To All, I am sorry to have started this question. It seems to have scratched a raw nerve. That was not my intention. I have all the respect in the world for builders, inspectors, and the public agencies that we deal with. But the bottom line is, and will always be the pilot. If you build an aircraft, do so with the notion that it's gonna be your "Butt" in the seat if anything goes wrong. That's why it's called "Experimental" or "Homebuilt". Here in the USA we do not have the dogged restrictions that seem to be evident in the UK and Europe. The FAA figures that you built it, if the paperwork is right, and there are no really glaring problems noted, then you have the God given right to risk your life to fly it. No amount of inspection by a third party can remove that responsibility. Now I asked the question because I thought the initial failure mechanism in this accident was the disengagement of the tailplane drive pins. That is why I thought Mods 73 and 74 were instituted. But with the realization that a wing's rear drag/lift pin failed first, my concern is with the original problem. I don't see any mods dealing with the drag/lift pin? If the original failure placed severe stresses on the tailplane, and that caused it's failure, then I don't want to get into a mode of finding the weakest link in our aircraft, beefing it up, then go on to the next weakest link, etc. Next thing you know, you won't be able to find an engine with enough power to lift that "tank" off the ground. I agree with Bob, that if this discussion is to be continued then it should be done off Forum....in a private chat amongst those wishing to know what "they" might have to do in order to feel better about "their" build. Without accusations of blame or slander......open, honest, and respectful. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:21 PM PST US From: david miller Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re PVC sight gauge Hi John, Well that's another winter project for me, if I get ambitious. Today I removed the nose wheel fairing and am going to shorten it and reshape, as it is right in the props arc when it swivels round as I back the plane up. Also I think that I've found the source of my fuel smell, it looks as if one of the water drains is leaking and the fuel in being drawn in there. Hope to see you at R.R. dave Do not archive On 10-May-08, at 8:39 AM, TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/10/2008 3:00:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > europa-list@matronics.com writes: > Aircraft Spruce list clear PVC pipe, used in Quickie as fuel level > gauge, p/n 03-54100, > however the diameter is larger, and I could not see an easy way of > plumbing it in > without risking a further source of fuel leakage. > > Hey Dave, > > I used 1/2" clear rigid PVC for my sight gauge. I located it on the > rear side of the backrest near the fuel filler. I threaded the PVC > tubing with a 1/8" NPT, then fitted 1/8" 90 degree AN fittings to > accept injector rated fuel lines. The threads are sealed with > "Bakerseal" thread compound. After nearly two years with constant > contact with fuel and the tubing still is clear and it doesn't leak > a drop. In this location, it's easily visible from outside when > refueling. > > Regards, > > John Lawton > Whitwell, TN (TN89) > N245E - Currently down for cowl changes > > > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family > favorites at AOL Food. > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:04 PM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Re: Europa-List: AAIB report G-HOFC Mike Mod 74 deals with the wing pin. It only applies to Classic (foam inside) winds as the XS wings are factory built. Mod 73 dealts with the tailplanes Dave Watts G-BXDY Now I asked the question because I thought the initial failure mechanism in this accident was the disengagement of the tailplane drive pins. That is why I thought Mods 73 and 74 were instituted. But with the realization that a wing's rear drag/lift pin failed first, my concern is with the original problem. I don't see any mods dealing with the drag/lift pin? If the original failure placed severe stresses on the tailplane, and that caused it's failure, then I don't want to get into a mode of finding the weakest link in our aircraft, beefing it up, then go on to the next weakest link, etc. Next thing you know, you won't be able to find an engine with enough power to lift that "tank" off the ground. Mike Duane A207A ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:49 PM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: Calling Dale Hetrick Dale ...tried to contact you at :- D.Hetrick [gdh@isp.com] last night but your spam filter is blocking me ? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Do not archive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.