Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:24 AM - Re: Re: Door bulge because of seal (Graham Singleton)
2. 01:24 AM - Re: Accident Report Question (flyingphil2)
3. 02:34 AM - Re: Setting the wing incidence (Graham Singleton)
4. 03:21 AM - Re: Accident Report Question (Carl Pattinson)
5. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: Accident Report Question (Peter Jeffers)
6. 09:26 AM - Jim Browns cracked tank (rparigoris)
7. 12:05 PM - Re: Jim Browns cracked tank (Fred Klein)
8. 12:53 PM - Re: Jim Browns cracked tank ()
9. 12:53 PM - Re: Jim Browns cracked tank ()
10. 12:53 PM - Re: Jim Browns cracked tank ()
11. 01:53 PM - Tomorrows Doth - Cromer (Bryan Allsop)
12. 03:37 PM - Re: Setting the wing incidence (William Daniell)
13. 04:54 PM - Re: Jim Browns cracked tank (Fred Klein)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Door bulge because of seal |
Craig
4 or 5 plies of UNI carbon would have worked too
Graham
craig bastin wrote:
>
>
> *Well here is my fix for the bulging doors, a piece of 3mm x 12mm
> alluminium*
> *reduxed and flush rivetted, clears the door sill by about 3mm, door
> was*
> *slightly over flattened with a straight edge and clamps alloy bent
> to be about*
> *3mm flatter than the curve through the door opening. doors are now
> even and flush*
> *right along the opening with seals in place. Overall weight
> increase 80g per door.*
> **
> *craig*
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
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| Subject: | Re: Accident Report Question |
Thanks for bringing that up.
Respectfully, I was wondering about that was well.
Phil
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Setting the wing incidence |
Dan
with respect I lifted the following out of your website, I would like to
add that these Tufnol supports are equally vital for easy damage free
rigging. Especially monowheels. You can't stop the wing sliding
backwards. I have given Andy earache more than once for leaving this out
of the manual, ( he was intensely pressurized at the time)
Only other useful remark would be that the incidence at the tip of the
flaps is more important than the incidence at the wing root.
Graham
danbish wrote:
First, I'm assuming that you have been able to get the wings in the
fuselage with the pins full through both port & starboard sides. If you
haven't already, make up guides out of tufnol to support and guide the
spars/wings into the correct position. This isn't mentioned in the
manual but is shown in great detail in photos on Bob Borger's album on
the Europa Owner's gallery. (Thanks Bob for making those available. They
were invaluable!). There's just no way to keep the wings held in the
right position throughout the process of setting the incidence without
these, IMHO.
First, I'm assuming that you have been able to get the wings in the
fuselage with the pins full through both port & starboard sides. If you
haven't already, make up guides out of tufnol to support and guide the
spars/wings into the correct position. This isn't mentioned in the
manual but is shown in great detail in photos on Bob Borger's album on
the Europa Owner's gallery. (Thanks Bob for making those available. They
were invaluable!). There's just no way to keep the wings held in the
right position throughout the process of setting the incidence without
these, IMHO.
>
> There are a few photos that might help at:
>
> http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=FittingWings&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
>
> Anyway, this is what worked for me but I'm not flyin' yet so I might just find
I fly around in circles!
>
> Happy Building!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Accident Report Question |
I believe that certain assumptions have been made here that are not necessarily
true. ie: that the inspection process only took an hour and a half.
The role of the "inspector" within the PFA is to supervise the building and maintenance
of their aircraft. It dosen't mean they have to do the work themselves
or be present when the work is being done. In other words they are there to
ensure the aircraft is built and maintained to the proper standards.
Early on in an inspector/ builder relationship the inspector generally makes an
assessment as to the experience/ competence the person they are managing and
this will determine how much or little supervision is needed .If a builder is
fairly experienced it is likely that less supervision will be required.
It is not uncommon for an owner/ builder to do the annual inspection himself (this
may take several days if done properly) and then for the inspector to make
whatever checks he considers necessary to satisfy himself the inspection has
been done properly. He may well focus on specific issues which are common to
a particular aircraft.
The most time consuming part of this particular task for the inspector is likely
to be completing the necessary paperwork and checking the logbooks are properly
filled in.
So to answer your specific question, when the AAIB report says the inspection only
took an hour and a half dosent mean thats how long it actually took. What
they are referring to is the culmination of the inspection process.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182875#182875
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Accident Report Question |
Speaking as a LAA inspector I totally agree with what you say, it is always
important to consider the relationship you have with the builder/owner. In
my experience owners' are usually very good at finding and diagnosing and
fixing problems with their own aircraft.
Not withstanding that, however good the relationship is between owner and
inspector; I know that a thorough inspection is always necessary to pick up
the odd fault that may have been missed. Quite often I do not find anything
untoward but as some of my personal owners know, sometimes I find very
significant problems that cannot be ignored.
That check, if it is to be worth anything has to take awhile and in the case
of a Europa is best achieved with the a/c disassembled. Many things can be
seen with the wings off that cannot possibly be seen with them on.
Pete Jeffers
Inspector for Europa Club
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson
Sent: 13 May 2008 11:18
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Accident Report Question
<carl.pattinson@btinternet.com>
I believe that certain assumptions have been made here that are not
necessarily true. ie: that the inspection process only took an hour and a
half.
The role of the "inspector" within the PFA is to supervise the building and
maintenance of their aircraft. It dosen't mean they have to do the work
themselves or be present when the work is being done. In other words they
are there to ensure the aircraft is built and maintained to the proper
standards.
Early on in an inspector/ builder relationship the inspector generally makes
an assessment as to the experience/ competence the person they are managing
and this will determine how much or little supervision is needed .If a
builder is fairly experienced it is likely that less supervision will be
required.
It is not uncommon for an owner/ builder to do the annual inspection himself
(this may take several days if done properly) and then for the inspector to
make whatever checks he considers necessary to satisfy himself the
inspection has been done properly. He may well focus on specific issues
which are common to a particular aircraft.
The most time consuming part of this particular task for the inspector is
likely to be completing the necessary paperwork and checking the logbooks
are properly filled in.
So to answer your specific question, when the AAIB report says the
inspection only took an hour and a half dosent mean thats how long it
actually took. What they are referring to is the culmination of the
inspection process.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182875#182875
Checked by AVG.
18:14
Checked by AVG.
18:14
Message 6
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| Subject: | Jim Browns cracked tank |
When I researched tank cracking, Jim Brown was kind enough to send me a (wierd
style) PDF of his tank crack. I tried to put it up in Gallery but it didn't work.
I posted it to Document section if anyone is interested under "Jim Browns cracked
tank".
My reply to cracking is documented in Gallery:
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album233&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
or if link is a hassle to deal with go to Gallery
4th album down: A-265
then: Say "NO" to Crack (in fuel tank).
Say "NO" to Crack (in fuel tank).
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Jim Browns cracked tank |
Ron,
When you took your described precautions (BID'ing the tunnel, and
foaming the tank bottom), were you aware of the tank's tendency to
absorb fuel and consequently expand (in accordance w/ Svein's posts;
i.e., expansion must be allowed for), or do you have a different take
on the situation?
Ron (or Anyone)...Can you say w/ certainty that our tanks are
LDPE?...or HDPE?
Fred
On Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 09:23 US/Pacific, rparigoris wrote:
> <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> When I researched tank cracking, Jim Brown was kind enough to send me
> a (wierd style) PDF of his tank crack. I tried to put it up in Gallery
> but it didn't work.
>
> I posted it to Document section if anyone is interested under "Jim
> Browns cracked tank".
>
> My reply to cracking is documented in Gallery:
> http://www.europaowners.org/
> modules.php?set_albumName=album233&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&i
> nclude=view_album.php
>
> or if link is a hassle to deal with go to Gallery
> 4th album down: A-265
> then: Say "NO" to Crack (in fuel tank).
>
>
> Say "NO" to Crack (in fuel tank).
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Jim Browns cracked tank |
Hi Fred
"When you took your described precautions (BID'ing the tunnel, and
> foaming the tank bottom), were you aware of the tank's tendency to
> absorb fuel and consequently expand"
Yes I was aware tank can expand. The foam is not applied directly to the
tank, I have a piece of mylar under the tank and the foam is underneath
the mylar, thus the foam is not bonded to the tank, the tank can move if
it cares to. The foam should support a good majority of weight of a full
tank, not rely on just cantelevering hold of aft BID layups. You can see
in Jims pics that the plastic just kinda flowed. The BID in tunnel should
relieve the sharp edge stress riser of the aft factory layup. I have the 3
BID tapered so there is not a sharp edge ending. If the tunnel of the tank
wants to expand, I can not see that the additional BID would causing a
crack to occur.
I attached a pic of Steve Hagars top of tank, if you had 3 BID on top of
tank when it was flat, not that you would want to do such a thing, but if
you did, I don't think it would cause cracks to occur. On the other hand
the tunnel layup and the lay ups on the aft base of the tank are all that
is supporting the majority of the weight of the tank. If I didn't already
have CPM bonded in, I would 3 taper BID the base supports as well. I think
the foam will take a real load off all 3 by not allowing the tank to
cantelever as compared to not having foam.
Ron Parigoris
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Jim Browns cracked tank |
Hi Fred
"When you took your described precautions (BID'ing the tunnel, and
> foaming the tank bottom), were you aware of the tank's tendency to
> absorb fuel and consequently expand"
Yes I was aware tank can expand. The foam is not applied directly to the
tank, I have a piece of mylar under the tank and the foam is underneath
the mylar, thus the foam is not bonded to the tank, the tank can move if
it cares to. The foam should support a good majority of weight of a full
tank, not rely on just cantelevering hold of aft BID layups. You can see
in Jims pics that the plastic just kinda flowed. The BID in tunnel should
relieve the sharp edge stress riser of the aft factory layup. I have the 3
BID tapered so there is not a sharp edge ending. If the tunnel of the tank
wants to expand, I can not see that the additional BID would causing a
crack to occur.
I attached a pic of Steve Hagars top of tank, if you had 3 BID on top of
tank when it was flat, not that you would want to do such a thing, but if
you did, I don't think it would cause cracks to occur. On the other hand
the tunnel layup and the lay ups on the aft base of the tank are all that
is supporting the majority of the weight of the tank. If I didn't already
have CPM bonded in, I would 3 taper BID the base supports as well. I think
the foam will take a real load off all 3 by not allowing the tank to
cantelever as compared to not having foam.
Ron Parigoris
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Jim Browns cracked tank |
Hi Fred
"When you took your described precautions (BID'ing the tunnel, and
> foaming the tank bottom), were you aware of the tank's tendency to
> absorb fuel and consequently expand"
Yes I was aware tank can expand. The foam is not applied directly to the
tank, I have a piece of mylar under the tank and the foam is underneath
the mylar, thus the foam is not bonded to the tank, the tank can move if
it cares to. The foam should support a good majority of weight of a full
tank, not rely on just cantelevering hold of aft BID layups. You can see
in Jims pics that the plastic just kinda flowed. The BID in tunnel should
relieve the sharp edge stress riser of the aft factory layup. I have the 3
BID tapered so there is not a sharp edge ending. If the tunnel of the tank
wants to expand, I can not see that the additional BID would causing a
crack to occur.
I attached a pic of Steve Hagars top of tank, if you had 3 BID on top of
tank when it was flat, not that you would want to do such a thing, but if
you did, I don't think it would cause cracks to occur. On the other hand
the tunnel layup and the lay ups on the aft base of the tank are all that
is supporting the majority of the weight of the tank. If I didn't already
have CPM bonded in, I would 3 taper BID the base supports as well. I think
the foam will take a real load off all 3 by not allowing the tank to
cantelever as compared to not having foam.
Ron Parigoris
Message 11
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| Subject: | Tomorrows Doth - Cromer |
Paddy is suggesting that the East coast cloud may not have cleared by lunch
time. As a precaution I am nominating Fenland as a diversion, in case it b
ecomes necessary.
Waddington will be advised if a diversion is called. My mobile phone is 079
57 818787.
The forecasts available to me say that the weather should be good, with any
cloud being out of the way in good time. Bring something warm to wear thou
gh, because the temperature is expected to be 60 F., with a wind out of the
NE (good for runway 04).
Cheers.
Bryan
_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you.
http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh
_mobile_052008
Message 12
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| Subject: | Setting the wing incidence |
Thanks
Yes I have made up the guides although mine are of ply with facing of soft
aluminum. My pins do go through all the way albeit a little tight which I
think is not abnormal if I recall earlier discussions. That is to say I can
get the pip pin in and then I put in the other one which I have made more
pointed to aid aligning the spars and then using the leverage of the long
handle on the right side and with firm pressure it will go through.
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 04:34
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Setting the wing incidence
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Dan
with respect I lifted the following out of your website, I would like to
add that these Tufnol supports are equally vital for easy damage free
rigging. Especially monowheels. You can't stop the wing sliding
backwards. I have given Andy earache more than once for leaving this out
of the manual, ( he was intensely pressurized at the time)
Only other useful remark would be that the incidence at the tip of the
flaps is more important than the incidence at the wing root.
Graham
danbish wrote:
First, I'm assuming that you have been able to get the wings in the
fuselage with the pins full through both port & starboard sides. If you
haven't already, make up guides out of tufnol to support and guide the
spars/wings into the correct position. This isn't mentioned in the
manual but is shown in great detail in photos on Bob Borger's album on
the Europa Owner's gallery. (Thanks Bob for making those available. They
were invaluable!). There's just no way to keep the wings held in the
right position throughout the process of setting the incidence without
these, IMHO.
First, I'm assuming that you have been able to get the wings in the
fuselage with the pins full through both port & starboard sides. If you
haven't already, make up guides out of tufnol to support and guide the
spars/wings into the correct position. This isn't mentioned in the
manual but is shown in great detail in photos on Bob Borger's album on
the Europa Owner's gallery. (Thanks Bob for making those available. They
were invaluable!). There's just no way to keep the wings held in the
right position throughout the process of setting the incidence without
these, IMHO.
>
> There are a few photos that might help at:
>
>
http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=FittingWings&op=modloa
d&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
>
> Anyway, this is what worked for me but I'm not flyin' yet so I might just
find I fly around in circles!
>
> Happy Building!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Graham Singleton
Tel: +441629820187
Mob: +447739582005
Checked by AVG.
18:14
Checked by AVG.
18:14
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Jim Browns cracked tank |
On Tuesday, May 13, 2008, at 12:49 US/Pacific,
<rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
> The foam is not applied directly to the tank, I have a piece of mylar
> under the tank and the foam is underneath the mylar, thus the foam is
> not bonded to the tank, the tank can move if
> it cares to.
Ron...yes...I saw the mylar...nice bond break/separator. I like what
you've done and intend to replicate it...looks like an ounce of
prevention to me.
I've already added a vertical separator of sorts which would allow some
bulging of the tank forward face but would prevent such bulging from
interfering w/ the spars and spar strap. It consists of a 3 bid layup
w/ 1/4" x 1/2" balsa stiffeners w/ 2 bid layup and a top flange which
is floxed to the underside of the "shelf" support; it extends down to
between the 2 FG spacers. I hot glued some 1/8" poly foam as a
cushion...pix below.
I'm still curious as to what our tanks are made of...LDPE or HDPE...(?)
Fred
--
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