---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 06/08/08: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:11 AM - Wheels up landing... (Richard Lamprey) 2. 03:16 AM - Re: Wheels up landing... (Carl Pattinson) 3. 10:20 AM - Re: Wheels up landing... (Paul McAllister) 4. 10:35 AM - Re: Wheels up landing... (Gilles Thesee) 5. 11:18 AM - Wheels up Warner (Bryan Allsop) 6. 12:37 PM - Re: Europa-List914 Overheating/boiling (G-IANI) 7. 12:41 PM - Re: Wheels up landing... (Paul McAllister) 8. 12:46 PM - Re: there are pilots who have and .... (josok) 9. 12:48 PM - Re: Wheels up landing... (Gilles Thesee) 10. 12:53 PM - Re: Wheels up Warner (Carl Pattinson) 11. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: Europa-List914 Overheating/boiling (Gilles Thesee) 12. 01:37 PM - Re: Wheels up Warner (Bryan Allsop) 13. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: Europa-List914 Overheating/boiling () 14. 02:53 PM - Re: Wheels up landing... () 15. 03:21 PM - An another incident for Finnish Europa around Barkaby Fly-inn Sweden (!). (Raimo Toivio) 16. 03:25 PM - Re: Wheels up landing... (Graham Singleton) 17. 03:33 PM - Re: Wheels up landing... (Raimo Toivio) 18. 05:02 PM - Re: An another incident for Finnish Europa around Barkaby Fly-inn Sweden (!). (Paul McAllister) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:09 AM PST US From: "Richard Lamprey" Subject: Europa-List: Wheels up landing... My condolences to Jos... I really do think it will happen one day to anyone with a monowheel. I have just done the same, with my classic here in Uganda. Details are: Classic with 912UL, warpdrive ground adjustable, I've flown 500 hours in her. After a series of circuits, let the gear handle down halfway to slow down, and forgot the final movement and lock. Landed on soft grass, even softer underneath from recent rain... big bang, prop shatters, slide to halt... with instant recognition of the problem and feeling like complete idiot... As usual, it the trail of events, having flown 60 hours in the previous 3 weeks in a Cessna 182 with gear safely welded down!... general fatigue and just not with it. Minimal damage to the airframe, wiped off the transponder antenna, the fuselage flap fairings are slightly grazed. When we raised it with a hoist, wheel came down a locked quite normally, and all inspection so far says the undercarriage / engine frame is OK. On 'landing' the wheel went it to be supported by the throttle box, and that will need some work (do Europa have these or do I have to fabricate a new one as in the old days?). The engine is the problem, it has the slipper clutch, but the gearbox sounds pretty graunched on turning the prop. So, I have to get the Rotax specialist up from South Africa (3000 km away) to go through the whole thing - big expense!!. Apparently you cant use the warpdrive hub again, but at least I have spare blades. Can anyone with similar experience tell me what else I should look for on the general inspection...? Many thanks, and greetings to all the fraternity. Richard Lamprey ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:17 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wheels up landing... Hi Richard - sorry to hear of your mishap. Just a personal observation but I feel that lowering the gear halfway is a habit that may have contributed towards your expensive landing. Its a nuisance but I have always lowered and locked the undercarriage down well before getting onto finals (ie: downwind leg). The lowering of the gear prompted by using the checklist in the circuit and a final confirmation of gear locked down on turning finals (and catch locked in gate). But then I have only logged 200 hours to your 500 so it may happen to me yet. I have smashed a prop (same as yours) due to a groundloop but luckily the engine was idling and all that was required was a check on the gearbox - fortunately the UK Rotax agent is only 30 miles away. I didnt have to replace the prop hub, just the blades. Nearly 180 hrs flown since the ding and no problems. Im surprised your gearbox appears to have sustained so much damage. I thought the point of the slipper clutch was to prevent this. Again comiserations, Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Lamprey To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:07 AM Subject: Europa-List: Wheels up landing... My condolences to Jos... I really do think it will happen one day to anyone with a monowheel. I have just done the same, with my classic here in Uganda. Details are: Classic with 912UL, warpdrive ground adjustable, I've flown 500 hours in her. After a series of circuits, let the gear handle down halfway to slow down, and forgot the final movement and lock. Landed on soft grass, even softer underneath from recent rain... big bang, prop shatters, slide to halt... with instant recognition of the problem and feeling like complete idiot... As usual, it the trail of events, having flown 60 hours in the previous 3 weeks in a Cessna 182 with gear safely welded down!... general fatigue and just not with it. Minimal damage to the airframe, wiped off the transponder antenna, the fuselage flap fairings are slightly grazed. When we raised it with a hoist, wheel came down a locked quite normally, and all inspection so far says the undercarriage / engine frame is OK. On 'landing' the wheel went it to be supported by the throttle box, and that will need some work (do Europa have these or do I have to fabricate a new one as in the old days?). The engine is the problem, it has the slipper clutch, but the gearbox sounds pretty graunched on turning the prop. So, I have to get the Rotax specialist up from South Africa (3000 km away) to go through the whole thing - big expense!!. Apparently you cant use the warpdrive hub again, but at least I have spare blades. Can anyone with similar experience tell me what else I should look for on the general inspection...? Many thanks, and greetings to all the fraternity. Richard Lamprey ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:45 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wheels up landing... Hi All, I have over a thousand hours of retract time, but in a single pilot operation I still wonder when my turn to leave the gear up will come. So, with all that said I am becoming more interested in what systems I can put in place to minimize a gear up landing. Once I got the oportunity to get some time in an Airforce 3 axis simulator for a KC135. One thing that really impressed me were the voice alerts at 50 and 30 feet generated from a radar altimeter. While systems like this are getting beyond the scope of home builders, I was wondering if anyone has had good experience with ultrasonic based devices that can perhaps measure 10 feet off the ground. I am thinking that taking inputs from manifold pressure, airspeed, gear microswitches and some altitude input and feeding them into a simple micro controller could generate a nice warning system. With that said there are plenty of examples of two pilot operations ignoring gear up warnings, but having an additonal system in my aircraft would be nice. I'd be interested in peoples input and ideas. If as a group we can come up with an approach I would be prepared to build and program a suitable micocontroller. Paul ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:05 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wheels up landing... Paul McAllister a crit : > I'd be interested in peoples input and ideas. If as a group we can > come up with an approach I would be prepared to build and program a > suitable micocontroller. > Paul and all, A couple of microswitches in series on the throttle lever and gear to trigger a horn when the throttle is retarded and the gear up works very well. FWIW, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:18:25 AM PST US From: Bryan Allsop Subject: Europa-List: Wheels up Warner Hi all Fellow Mono Pilots, It seems strange that I was showing my wheels up warning device to Bob Hitc hcock last weekend. He was saying that other people could be interested , b ut I was not so sure. It seems that I may have been wrong! I have developed a simple processor to control the system. With the trim se t to less than 65 Knots for landing, a proximity switch puts a +ve signal t o the controller. With the wheel up a bright red led flashes. After 30 seco nds of no further action a very loud intermitent siren makes itself known. Normally you will have the wheel down within the 30 seconds, so that the si ren does not come on. The siren can be temporarily overidden if required. When the wheel is down and locked, a bright green led comes on, and the red flasher goes off. Having had my own wheels up experience I have no intentions of having anoth er one. It works well, but installation requires a bit of patience to get i t set up for the 65 knot speed. It weighs a few ounces, and you need about 6 cubic inches of space behind the panel. I have no ambitions to start large scale marketing of it, but if sufficient people were to be interested I do have the resources to knock out some kit s. There are no approvals on the device, I don't even know if it needs one since it is not attached to any part of the controls. Regards to all. Bryan _________________________________________________________________ It=92s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Wi ndows Live=99 Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:39 PM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List914 Overheating/boiling G-IRON, has a 914 that has suddenly developed a tendency to boil. Nothing has been done to the aircraft to precipitate this. Even with short warm up and taxi it will boil slightly as you clime out (at about 500ft). It will then stop boiling during the flight. On landing it will boil again as you come to rest. The boiling is quite gentle, not a big explosion of steam. It is filled with water/glycol. We have been over everything looking for hot spots such as a coolant pipe in contact with the exhaust and all is as it should be. The Rads have been checked and they are both OK. Has anyone got any ideas that might help Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:19 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wheels up landing... Hi Gilles, Yes that was my original thought too. My Comanche had a similar setup, but once I still found myself turning from base to final with the gear up after a distraction from the Control Tower who were trying to advert a mid air. Would it have worked when I finally closed the throttle? The Comanche like many aircraft with a higher wing loadings liked to be landed carrying a little power. I could imagine a scenario where I wasn't warned until I was in the flair which would have been very late. Still thinking about it. Thanks for the idea, keep them coming. Paul ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: there are pilots who have and .... From: "josok" Thanks to everybody for the condolences and good advice. I would like to help preventing others to fall in the same or similar trap.Looking back, it is interesting to see where and why it went wrong. On the Norwegian CAA site, is it http://www.ipppc.no ? sits a paper called VFR flying in Norway. It contains a list of factors, that tend to break the weakest link in flying security, us pilots. From the list, being tired, weather (too hot for me), unfamiliar airport, and also the first flight show to attend were the stress factors. The first mistake was to not turn the approach chart in track up position. I always use maps and the gps in track up. Flying South, i ended up on the wrong final. Went around and ended up on the right side, but too high and too fast. No problem, gear up, and go around for the second time. Concentrated on the runway, and started to lower the flaps/wheel, heard them noise, because the speed was about 100 knots. Left them half, turned final, did my on final check list, second pump on, constant speed controller on climb, gear down and locked. I remember to be a little confused that the lock was not in the usual position, but i was sure the handle was... UP. I noticed i was still fast, slowed down, stall warner blaring at 55, what i threw away as a mistake, was annoyed that the nose was too high, added a bit of power to soften the bounce :-) That there was no bounce, and a lot of smoke and noise brought me out of the fixation i had had. My conclusion, and maybe only valid for me, is to be more critical BEFORE the flight. I promised myself not ever to accept more then 2 of the "do not fly" list. Since i clearly remember to have seen the gear lever up on the "ready for final check", i do not think that any clever gear up alarm would have convinced me that there was something wrong. Wrong speed, wrong picture, wrong stall horn and: The final error was "up is good" The second promise to myself is from Kjell, that if i feel it is not going as expected. to break out, leave the circuit, take five. Come back later! I have to add that i just landed, it was very bumpy, the wind was gusting, an amphibious Cessna blew a tyre and blocked the runway i was on downwind for, the tower send me to another runway, asked if i could accept 15 knots gusting 25 crosswind, and i had a perfect landing. This one went like, oh not again, you are not getting me :-) Regards Jos Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:41 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wheels up landing... Paul McAllister a crit : > Would it have worked when I finally closed the throttle? The Comanche > like many aircraft with a higher wing loadings liked to be landed > carrying a little power. I could imagine a scenario where I wasn't > warned until I was in the flair which would have been very late. > How about setting the switch at 10 % power or so ? Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:43 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wheels up Warner Sounds like a great idea Bryan. I had always wanted to fit something similar but just havent had the time to think it through - or get round to doing it. I guess when it happens to you then it focuses the mind. I would be interested in the details. BTW how does the system recognise the aircraft is below 65 knots - ie: where is the input taken from? Carl G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Allsop To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:15 PM Subject: Europa-List: Wheels up Warner Hi all Fellow Mono Pilots, It seems strange that I was showing my wheels up warning device to Bob Hitchcock last weekend. He was saying that other people could be interested , but I was not so sure. It seems that I may have been wrong! I have developed a simple processor to control the system. With the trim set to less than 65 Knots for landing, a proximity switch puts a +ve signal to the controller. With the wheel up a bright red led flashes. After 30 seconds of no further action a very loud intermitent siren makes itself known. Normally you will have the wheel down within the 30 seconds, so that the siren does not come on. The siren can be temporarily overidden if required. When the wheel is down and locked, a bright green led comes on, and the red flasher goes off. Having had my own wheels up experience I have no intentions of having another one. It works well, but installation requires a bit of patience to get it set up for the 65 knot speed. It weighs a few ounces, and you need about 6 cubic inches of space behind the panel. I have no ambitions to start large scale marketing of it, but if sufficient people were to be interested I do have the resources to knock out some kits. There are no approvals on the device, I don't even know if it needs one since it is not attached to any part of the controls. Regards to all. Bryan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- It=92s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live=99 Messenger. Learn How.. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:45 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List914 Overheating/boiling G-IANI a crit : > > > G-IRON, has a 914 that has suddenly developed a tendency to boil. > Nothing has been done to the aircraft to precipitate this. > > Even with short warm up and taxi it will boil slightly as you clime out > (at about 500ft). It will then stop boiling during the flight. On > landing it will boil again as you come to rest. The boiling is quite > gentle, not a big explosion of steam. It is filled with water/glycol. > Ian, Would you care to expand on this boiling issue ? How does this boiling manifest itself ? High temp readings, steam trails ? Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:28 PM PST US From: Bryan Allsop Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wheels up Warner Hi Carl. Long time no see. The trim set up determines the airspeed. The trim motor arm extends with a tiny magnet fixed to it which operates the proximity switch. Finding the co rrect combination of switch and magnet to give a precise reliable switch wa s a significant part of the development, which took nearly a year. Cheers. Bryan From: carl@flyers.freeserve.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Europa-List: Wheels up WarnerDate: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:51:01 +0100 Sounds like a great idea Bryan. I had always wanted to fit something similar but just havent had the time t o think it through - or get round to doing it. I guess when it happens to you then it focuses the mind. I would be interested in the details. BTW how does the system recognise the aircraft is below 65 knots - ie: wher e is the input taken from? Carl G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Allsop Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:15 PM Subject: Europa-List: Wheels up Warner Hi all Fellow Mono Pilots, It seems strange that I was showing my wheels up warning device to Bob Hitchcock last weekend. He was saying that other peo ple could be interested , but I was not so sure. It seems that I may have b een wrong! I have developed a simple processor to control the system. With the trim set to less than 65 Knots for landing, a proximity switch puts a + ve signal to the controller. With the wheel up a bright red led flashes. Af ter 30 seconds of no further action a very loud intermitent siren makes its elf known. Normally you will have the wheel down within the 30 seconds, so that the siren does not come on. The siren can be temporarily overidden if required. When the wheel is down and locked, a bright green led comes on, a nd the red flasher goes off. Having had my own wheels up experience I have no intentions of having another one. It works well, but installation requi res a bit of patience to get it set up for the 65 knot speed. It weighs a f ew ounces, and you need about 6 cubic inches of space behind the panel. I h ave no ambitions to start large scale marketing of it, but if sufficient pe ople were to be interested I do have the resources to knock out some kits. There are no approvals on the device, I don't even know if it needs one sin ce it is not attached to any part of the controls. Regards to all. Bryan It=92s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Wi ndows Live=99 Messenger. Learn How.. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=s rchpaysyouback ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List914 Overheating/boiling From: Hi G-IANI "Even with short warm up and taxi it will boil slightly as you clime out" "Has anyone got any ideas that might help" Will the system hold 1.2 bar pressure? If pressure drops boiling temp will go down. I had a pressure cap on my 1992 Volvo turbo Station Wagon get a very small hairline crack perhaps a year ago and what you describe is bout what happened to me. Pretty easy to check are radiator fins restricting? Has any hose or fitting changed to cause a restriction? Harder to check, is radiator internal restricting? Is water pump working properly? Good Luck Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wheels up landing... From: Hi Jos Thx. for sharing your experience. Wayne and I built a 5 pound, 3/4 hp 4 foot flying wing. To make it make it more manageable on landing we installed articulatable NASA Leading Edge droop. Worked great, but if you touched down with droop down, it would break the Sullivan actuator/s. Thus we modified the transmitter with a simple button, when you flare, push button and droop retracted. My feathers were severely ruffled after the second time I forgot to retract. On a good day I would be just about following the aerocraft, but could get behind it very easy. Needless to say I spent plenty of time changing actuators! First was to have Wayne remind me to retract on flare, spent time replacing actuators. Made a checklist and stringent procedure, spent time replacing actuators. Slightest thing not go perfect as anticipate and could forget to retract. I can make a direct comparison to forgetting to drop Europa gear. "When" I forget to drop Europa gear, we made what is a pretty structural up stop for swing arm: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album216&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Installing an adjustable pressure switch driven by pitot (purchased from Europa, what they use for stall warner) to liven things up below lets say 70 knots, and a switch for each outrigger and a switch for lever down latch. Will drive a bright LED aimed at pilots eyes, and probably a stick shaker. Stick shaker will be a mini cell phone style mini motor with offset weight. If all is well will get 3 green LEDs. Here is a how we ran wires for outrigger switches: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album217&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Will not get green LED unless outrigger latch is ready to take some abuse without collapsing. BTW installed a lever downlatch spring to make sure latch stays down: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album215&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php My Undercarriage mounting frame had things undercenter! Anyone with a monowheel best make sure you have overcenter by at least 1/16" up to bout 3/32" Hi Paul "I was wondering if anyone has had good experience with ultrasonic > based devices that can perhaps measure 10 feet off the ground." Can's say we have good experience, but some experience: http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album236&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:13 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Europa-List: An another incident for Finnish Europa around Barkaby Fly-inn Sweden (!). Hi all My sad responsibility is to report also my incident as follows: I was flying back from Barkaby to Finland Tampere (EFTP) via Ume (ESNU). Two legs, 3 hrs and 1 hrs 20 minutes. Half an hour from EFTP I met two thunder storm centres. I elected to fly between them. Seemed for me to be just a normal practise. QNH altitude 4000 feet, airspeed 130 knots, ground speed 150 knots, air temp 22C, plane was well trimmed and loaded near MTOW 658 kg /1450 lbs.Almost overcast (5/8) about 6000 feet. We saw quite strong lightnings both sides. Suddenly I got a STRONG electric shock like static or similar to my right hand from the power lever. My friend got a similar shock to his ears through head sets. Very heavy raining started immediately. Radio started awful whistling and whining. What the hell was happening we asked each others. Plane was still flying well. We saw no damages on the wing surfaces etc. Radio stopped whistling after five minutes or so. I was checking all the equipments I could. During that inspection I noticed I have no trim position display any more (I have those green MAC leds). I tried to trim but nothing happened. CB (Europa suplied) was in position. I tried via change over swith my another lower speed trim adjusting switch but nothing happened. Just for in case I opened trim CB to avoid possibility of the trim auto-run case. I have to mention we had with Jos a discussion of that case and he stated that if it goes to the other side, it is impossible to keep pitch control any more. And that discussion was this morning! So, I was flying over EFTP. Altitude 3000 feet. There was a whole circus like several fire trucks, police and ambulances. Carefully I slowed the speed to 80 knots to test what happens during flaps/gear lowering. You remember I had lost my electric trim and it was trimmed for 130 knots. During my normal abroach speed 70 knots I can tell you the nose was VERY heavy but still controlable. Just in case my strong friend helped me by pulling his stick also. I keeped that speed until touching the runway and it was one of my best monowheel landing ever (like Jos reported today in his other case EFHF). ATC men, fire men and all the others congratulated me. We were alive and OH-XRT was still in one piece. I taxied to the hangar and after half an hour trim motor started to work by itself. Still there was no its position lights. Trim CB was working normally. We fast checked the plane and obviously the lightning has gone trough stbd-side stabilator pip-pin to the structure. The pip-pin cover (transparent sticker) was explosed and the head of the pip-pin was black. That was it. I drove home, kissed my daughters and wife and opened a bottle of bier. BTW - when we were over EFTP, my friend measured my pulse rate and it was 150. That was an interesting experience. Some of you know that I made last summer a serioush but super lucky forced landing in Lappland because my Cessnas mechanical trim was working uppsidedown. That was because a service error of certified service company Arctic Airservice. Trim controls are my nightmares and devils lurking to make me a bad day. I grounded my Europa of course. I am not sure what to do now. If I later decide to continue flying, I have to fix it first and and check it carefully. I called Jos (thank you) and he advised me to check everything. Have you there any ideas for me, please? Raimo OH-XRT, 64 hrs, grounded so far ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 7:14 PM Subject: Europa-List: there are pilots who have and .... > > Hi All, > > Well, to let you know that i did it, landed with gear up. > Just plain stupidity of course. As always, there was a build up of smaller mistakes, which should have warned me. But it ended with forgetting to put the gear down. The good thing is we walked away, and also the damage to the plane is minor. It looks like i will be flying home, with the prop of an other Europa from Kjell Skogeland. It's fantastic to get help so fast! > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > > > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:45 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wheels up landing... Gilles Thesee wrote: That's exactly what our leader, (Burt Rutan) drew up in the Long EZ plans, for the same reason. Graham > > > Paul McAllister a crit : >> I'd be interested in peoples input and ideas. If as a group we can >> come up with an approach I would be prepared to build and program a >> suitable micocontroller. >> > > Paul and all, > > A couple of microswitches in series on the throttle lever and gear to > trigger a horn when the throttle is retarded and the gear up works > very well. > > FWIW, > > Best regards, > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Checked by AVG. > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:49 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wheels up landing... Paul and all, A couple of microswitches in series on the throttle lever and gear to trigger a horn when the throttle is retarded and the gear up works very well. FWIW, Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr I have a similar system with high bright red and yellow leds + a horn. Works well but I am sure if mentally loaded enough ALL the warnings are useless. Automatic gear lowering is the only answer (!) then but what happens if... Raimo (fixed gear makes life too easy) ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:04 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: An another incident for Finnish Europa around Barkaby Fly-inn Sweden (!). Hi Ramio, Well I guess you have joined the club. Take a look at http://www.europa.net.nz/363/index.html, click on the left hand pane under flying experiences and you can read about the damage my aircraft took with my lightning strike. By the way, I bought a lottery ticket straight after my hit but i didn't win anything. 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