Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:45 AM - Fuel tank dimensions (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
2. 08:51 AM - Re: First Flight (Paddy Clarke)
3. 10:49 AM - Re: Trims (Raimo Toivio)
4. 12:11 PM - Re: First Flight (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
5. 01:48 PM - Re: An another incident for Finnish Europa around Barkaby Fly-inn Sweden (!). (Raimo Toivio)
6. 08:10 PM - Re: Fuel tank dimensions (Steve Hagar)
7. 10:07 PM - Re: Fuel tank dimensions (Paul McAllister)
8. 11:26 PM - Re: Fuel tank dimensions (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Fuel tank dimensions |
I am considering a new tank - I don't like the prospect of a crack when
flying over Norwegian terrain - - - - - . Will in case make it higher
than the original to compensate for less width (so as to get it into the
fuselage after cutting open the cockpit module top) and in order to get
more long range fuel capacity.
Before I remove the existing tank, I wish to evaluate tank material,
dimensions and design details as far as possible, and only make small
adjustments after taking actual measurement of the available space.
I have received a sketch with dimensions from EA2004, but they cannot
confirm that it is an as-built drawing. The problem is that the volume
calculated on the basis of this sketch is about 20% larger than what our
tanks actually contain.
If anyone has a tank not yet installed, I would appreciate very much to
receive the dimensions A to E as marked on the attached sketch - in
millimeters or inches. Note: Measurement E should be taken close to
the centerline, not in way of the recesses for the aileron
quick-connects at the sides. I have blacked out the dimensions received
from Europa, in order not to mislead anyone.
Best regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
Hi Alasdair,
Well done - see you at a DOTH shortly in the new one!.
Cheers, Paddy
Paddy Clarke
Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM
Message 3
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Where should the trim be during engine failure on takeoff?
During engine failure on takeoff you have no time to trim.
Better to concentrate to land beautifully.
So, I would keep it as untouchment = as neutral = as normally during takeoff and
& landing.
Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 9:14 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Trims
>
> Just a cautionary note:
> Some newer aviators occasionally make the approach with the aircraft
> pitch-trimmed for round-out on landing. That makes it easier for leisurely
> arrivals.
> However, some aircraft (not the Europa apparently) are very
> difficult to control in pitch if a baulked landing is called for - as in
> somebody enters the runway ahead of you and go-around is necessary. When the
> pitch trim motor is slow, the move to full overshoot power produces an
> unexpected nose-up surge. While the Europa seems to provide sufficient
> leverage to overcome this mis-trim, it takes swift reaction not to be
> overwhelmed (the action is as quick as the throttle moves). Many a surprised
> Lysander driver has looped on go-around - stings a bit.
> I'll be trimming for go-around and compensating during round-out.
> Besides, slight out-of-trim produces a more sensitive feel on the stick and
> thus supports increased accuracy.
> Cheers,
> Ferg
> PS: Corollary: Where should the trim be during engine failure on takeoff?
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
Alasdair,
WIll it be at Brimpton this w'end? For us all to admire.
Rgds.,
Duncan.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A B Milne
Sent: 17 June 2008 06:52
To: Europa List
Subject: Europa-List: First Flight
Another Europa XS Trigear is on its way to join the UK fleet. G -
CEYK flew from Oxford for the first time on Saturday last. No dramas,
just the interest provided by having myself as builder on his first as a
test pilot.
Regards
Alasdair Milne
- The Europa-List Email Forum - -->
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: An another incident for Finnish Europa around Barkaby |
Fly-inn Sweden (!).
Hi All
Below are my earlier questions - please comments Gentlemen!
My comments to my questions:
1) I think it is possible to fy w/o trim position indicator. Anyway I have now
a new indicator.
2) I guess 22 s is just normal (cannot compare, but Jos thought so). "Full power"
means full electric power w/o any trim speed control (I have controlable speed
for cruising with changeover switch for full power when landing).
3) No idea
4) How about reed relays? Are there reed relays to control stops?
My trim stops are ok. When travelling to the upper or lower end, current was 0
mA + led consumption.
My servo was ok - changing trim indicator was only fun.
I would like to limit neutral to nose upp travel but thats another story.
Fly far away from horny clouds, Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: An another incident for Finnish Europa around Barkaby
Fly-inn Sweden (!).
Thanks Bob and all,
before "I get back on that horse and ride again" I have some guestions for you:
1) I can fly w/o trim position indicator, can I?
Before take-off I trim it middle and rest is just like flying w Cessnas mechanical
trim.
Neutral during take-off and then after how you feel good.
2) With full power my trim travel time is exactly 22 seconds.
Please confirm thats ok and normal!
3) I have an Europa original square type 1A CB for trim.
Is it possible it was open but button itself was still in?
I am asking this because I did not have trim ability and CB button was same time
in the IN position.
After in the hangar suddenly the trim motor waked upp and started to operate.
Any other explanations?
4) Is there in the trim motor /servo some kind of inbuilt thermal switch?
If yes - that would be a good explanation for question 3.
I have asked this from RAC but did not got any answer so far.
If I shall end upp to change also servo that will be a little nightmare.
That is because I have fixed it with nylocnuts and bolts and there is no inspection
hatch for those nuts.
I wanted to save 15 minutes and elected not to instal fixed wing nuts (4 pcs).
The price will be in that case some lamination and painting practise.
Raimo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Borger" <rlborger@mac.com>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: An another incident for Finnish Europa around Barkaby
Fly-inn Sweden (!).
Raimo,
Thank goodness you and your passenger were not harmed. Two folks have now shown
that it is possible to survive a lightning strike in the Europa.
Gents, that's enough. No further need for continued demonstrations!
I appreciate your candor in the description of the event. We all need to learn
from our collective experiences.
Now take a brief rest with the family while you investigate and repair the damage.
Then you'll be ready to get back on that horse and ride again.
Check six,
Bob Borger
On Sunday, June 08, 2008, at 05:28PM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi> wrote:
>
>Hi all
>
>My sad responsibility is to report also my incident as follows:
>
>I was flying back from Barkaby to Finland Tampere (EFTP) via Ume (ESNU).
>Two legs, 3 hrs and 1 hrs 20 minutes.
>Half an hour from EFTP I met two thunder storm centres. I elected to fly between
them.
>Seemed for me to be just a normal practise. QNH altitude 4000 feet, airspeed 130
knots,
>ground speed 150 knots, air temp 22C, plane was well trimmed and loaded near MTOW
>658 kg /1450 lbs.Almost overcast (5/8) about 6000 feet. We saw quite strong lightnings
>both sides.
>
>Suddenly I got a STRONG electric shock like static or similar to my right hand
from the power lever.
>My friend got a similar shock to his ears through head sets.
>Very heavy raining started immediately.
>Radio started awful whistling and whining.
>
>What the hell was happening we asked each others.
>Plane was still flying well.
>We saw no damages on the wing surfaces etc.
>Radio stopped whistling after five minutes or so.
>I was checking all the equipments I could.
>
>During that inspection I noticed I have no trim position display any more (I have
those green MAC leds).
>I tried to trim but nothing happened.
>CB (Europa suplied) was in position.
>I tried via change over swith my another lower speed trim adjusting switch but
nothing happened.
>Just for in case I opened trim CB to avoid possibility of the trim auto-run case.
>
>I have to mention we had with Jos a discussion of that case and he stated that
if it goes to the other side,
>it is impossible to keep pitch control any more. And that discussion was this
morning!
>
>So, I was flying over EFTP. Altitude 3000 feet. There was a whole circus like
several fire trucks, police and
>ambulances. Carefully I slowed the speed to 80 knots to test what happens during
flaps/gear lowering.
>You remember I had lost my electric trim and it was trimmed for 130 knots.
>
>During my normal abroach speed 70 knots I can tell you the nose was VERY heavy
but still controlable.
>Just in case my strong friend helped me by pulling his stick also.
>I keeped that speed until touching the runway and it was one of my best monowheel
landing ever
>(like Jos reported today in his other case EFHF).
>
>ATC men, fire men and all the others congratulated me. We were alive and OH-XRT
was still in one piece.
>
>I taxied to the hangar and after half an hour trim motor started to work by itself.
>Still there was no its position lights. Trim CB was working normally.
>
>We fast checked the plane and obviously the lightning has gone trough stbd-side
stabilator pip-pin to the structure. The pip-pin cover (transparent sticker)
was explosed and the head of the pip-pin was black.
>
>That was it. I drove home, kissed my daughters and wife and opened a bottle of
bier.
>
>BTW - when we were over EFTP, my friend measured my pulse rate and it was 150.
>
>That was an interesting experience. Some of you know that I made last summer a
serioush but super lucky
>forced landing in Lappland because my Cessnas mechanical trim was working uppsidedown.
>That was because a service error of certified service company Arctic Airservice.
>
>Trim controls are my nightmares and devils lurking to make me a bad day.
>
>I grounded my Europa of course. I am not sure what to do now.
>If I later decide to continue flying, I have to fix it first and and check it
carefully.
>I called Jos (thank you) and he advised me to check everything.
>
>Have you there any ideas for me, please?
>
>Raimo
>OH-XRT, 64 hrs, grounded so far
Message 6
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| Subject: | Fuel tank dimensions |
Svein:
It sounds like you are doing almost exactly what I am planning to do. A little
higher and a little narrower. It doesn't give too much extra capacity however.
I was going to use the bottom of the door sills as my upper limit. So that
gives about 2 inches or so. One thing I was contemplating on doing was making
a square box section to extend into the baggage bay just over the hump in
the middle possibly a 10 X 10 X 8 inch volume about 13 liters in addition to
raising the lid.
Here are the dimensions I have in inches: A = 11.00 B = 10.50 C = 15.50
D = 12.00 E = 8.25 Top front = 41.00 Top back = 40.25 Top along seam = 41.125
Inside saddle back = 7.125 Inside saddle front = 6.75
Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa, AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
Sent: 6/18/2008 5:51:41 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel tank dimensions
I am considering a new tank - I don't like the prospect of a crack when flying
over Norwegian terrain - - - - - . Will in case make it higher than the original
to compensate for less width (so as to get it into the fuselage after cutting
open the cockpit module top) and in order to get more long range fuel capacity.
Before I remove the existing tank, I wish to evaluate tank material, dimensions
and design details as far as possible, and only make small adjustments after
taking actual measurement of the available space.
I have received a sketch with dimensions from EA2004, but they cannot confirm that
it is an as-built drawing. The problem is that the volume calculated on the
basis of this sketch is about 20% larger than what our tanks actually contain.
If anyone has a tank not yet installed, I would appreciate very much to receive
the dimensions A to E as marked on the attached sketch - in millimeters or inches.
Note: Measurement E should be taken close to the centerline, not in way
of the recesses for the aileron quick-connects at the sides. I have blacked
out the dimensions received from Europa, in order not to mislead anyone.
Best regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank dimensions |
Hi Steve,
Suppose that this mightn't be a great idea, but has anyone considered
cutting the top of the seat back area and simply fiber glassing in the
whole area. My aircraft, (LongEze for example) have the tanks made out
of fiberglass. I bet with a but of care you could expand the capacity
even more.
Just a thought.
Paul
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank dimensions |
Steve,
Thank you very much for measuring the dimensions I asked for, plus some
in addition. Can you explain where you measured the "inside saddle
back" and "inside saddle front"?
Regarding the square box section extending into the baggage bay just
over the hump in the middle: I am afraid that this would reduce the
transverse strength of the cockpit module (CM) too much. Admittedly,
much of the forces from the wings' lift and drag are equalized between
them by the cross bar just aft of the CM, but I will not take any risk
here.
Cutting off the CM top and refitting it (at same level or higher) will
not compromise the aircrafts structural strength. My plan - if I go
ahead with it - would be to lift the top at least 4 inches (probably
more) to maximize the volume, and make the head rests so that the
shoulder belts will go back from my shoulders at an up angle of 35
degrees (ref. previous discussions the spine compression and European
VLA seat belt rules).
Best regards,
Svein
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