---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/19/08: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:50 AM - Re: Unlatched outrigger (Jhleuropa@aol.com) 2. 08:57 AM - Re: Unlatched outrigger () 3. 09:48 AM - Unlatched outrigger (Fred Klein) 4. 11:08 AM - Re: Removing PVA release agent (Andrew Sarangan) 5. 02:42 PM - Re: Removing PVA release agent () 6. 04:14 PM - Re: Unlatched outrigger (JR Gowing) 7. 06:04 PM - Re: Removing PVA release agent (Andrew Sarangan) 8. 06:14 PM - Re: Removing PVA release agent (Keith Hickling) 9. 06:48 PM - Re: Removing PVA release agent (craig bastin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:08 AM PST US From: Jhleuropa@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Unlatched outrigger My Europa monowheel has been flying since 99 and initially I had three incidents of an outrigger failing to latch which in the first two incidents, resulted in minor scuffing damage to the outrigger leg. On the third occasion, I managed to recover early in the event by applying maximum aileron. Thorough inspection,cleaning, relubrication and testing with A/C jacked up, failed to reveal any reason or reoccurrence. Since then, I always plan to deploy the gear around 70Kts in one swift and positive movement, with a bit of a thump no less, and have not had a problem since. A bit basic but it seems to work. Hope this info is of some help. John Lace. G-OJHL 350 hours ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Unlatched outrigger From: My take on the outrigger latching system of a monowheel europa is that it uses technology that is closer to a mechanical adding machine/typewriter than airplane retractable undercarriage. My Dad was a technician for both adding machines/typewriters and myself being exposed to such in great detail even before kindergarten has somewhat rubbed off onto me. It's been a few years since I fooled with my outrigger assembly, but here are some observations: *When fooling with fit of OR4 latch, you are trying to find a compromise with just enough clearance to not bind latch edge, because the more clearance you leave the higher the factor of (wigulation) in gear leg when retracted. I on purpose filed just enough to get latch in place with a smooth action. Anything less than steady and smooth would not latch. I fooled with it and found that change in temperature or if wing was in sun on trailer would not allow a latch at all no matter what I did. I forget now what was the worst case, but I filed just a little at a time till it would just latch with a not so smooth actuation and filed a few thousands more *When things wear, begin to score and lube goes away or temperatures reach extremes for me that can still be a different story compared to my new build. I feel a lot more comfortable having micro switches telling me that both OR4s are latched, If for some reason they do not latch, you have a very good chance of being able to do a few actuation's and getting a latch. If you just can not get a latch, then land with wind favoring push on the latched outrigger. When I do conditional or 100 hour, will swing gear and force "worst case" and return to service only after I am satisfied with action. All said will still try to load outriggers as little as possable, as per preaching of John Hurst. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:14 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Unlatched outrigger From: Fred Klein After first assembling the outrigger along w/ the Club mod, when I deployed the flaps (and outrigger) for the first time and heard that resounding "THOWONGK", I truly marveled at the precision and complexity of the mechanism, particularly the way the flap deploys an additional 2 degrees to ensure lock-down of the outrigger wheel. But as I read of the operational issues (airspeed at deployment, wear and tear, lubrication, effects of temperature, etc.), I've had an increasing appreciation for the value of the microswitch-warning lights which some builders have installed. I gotta admit that I am challenged by all things electrical, so I would humbly ask that someone...someone who can handle wiring diagrams, warning lights, microswitches, and a digital camera (while skipping rope and chewing gum at the same time)...please, put together an illustrated tutorial (in crayon) showing just how this is done. Fred A-194 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:33 AM PST US From: "Andrew Sarangan" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Removing PVA release agent Ron I used Palmolive dish soap and hot water. Made me sweat like a pig in the 90-deg weather:-) I could only see small shreds of transparent plastic wrap stuck to various surfaces. I am assuming this is the PVA agent that has dried to form a thin film. I can peel off small chunks, but I can't tell how much of the entire surface is covered with this film. Most importantly, I tried soaking one of these pieces in hot water and soap and it showed no tendency to dissolve even after an hour. So obviously I am looking at the wrong stuff, or this is a lot harder to remove than I had assumed. Any thoughts? On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:33 PM, wrote: > > Hi Andrew > > "I am not sure what the PVA release agent looks like. My cockpit module >> has very thick glossy stuff all over the the underside. It looks more >> like excessive epoxy. But I am concerned if this might be the PVA >> release agent. If so, it's not going to come off with any amount of >> washing in soap and water. Some heavy duty sanding would be in order. >> Does anyone have some advice on this?" > > Use the hottest water you can tolerate, we used just plain green Palmolive > dish washing soap (great hand cleaner)and scotchbright pad. Once water > sheets rather than beads up you can switch to plain water and > scotchbright. You need to rinse off all the soap which is no trivial job. > Just keep rinsing, you could use green scouring pads (for sinks) as well. > When you think you got it all off, use some hot water "when" you see > bubbles forming, keep at it. > > Ron Parigoris > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Removing PVA release agent From: Hi Andrew "I could only see small shreds of transparent > plastic wrap stuck to various surfaces." I am not sure of the exact designation of the release compound europa uses, but it is in fact water soluble. Using scotch bright with Palmolive takes it off OK. What you are describing does not sound like a release agent. My kit was covered with tan packaging tape. Boy what a pain to get off. It was definite not 3M 375 tape (my favorite packaging tape used extensive in model building), but most likely some cheap stuff that got stuck better than many of my layups! I am wondering if what you see is very thin clear packaging tape?? Or shrink wrap pulled very tight on remains of packaging tape? www.mcmaster.com search: Ultra-Sharp Razor blades Buy a hundred Ultra-Sharp Carbon Steel Blades. Try some mineral spirits and razor blades (and finger nails), it may be tape?? Can also try some Isopropyl Alcohol. See if you can disolve with other than watere. Use scotch-bright with a solvent that seems to work. Be very careful with acetone and blue foam. Shaving with very sharp razor blade and solvent sounds like a good plan without seeing first hand?? Curious what your resolve will be. Ron P. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:23 PM PST US From: "JR Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Unlatched outrigger I strongly support Fred Klein's plea for such a tutorial! JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Klein To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 2:45 AM Subject: Europa-List: Unlatched outrigger After first assembling the outrigger along w/ the Club mod, when I deploy ed the flaps (and outrigger) for the first time and heard that resounding =22 THOWONGK=22, I truly marveled at the precision and complexity of the mechanis m, particularly the way the flap deploys an additional 2 degrees to ensure lock-down of the outrigger wheel. But as I read of the operational issues (airspeed at deployment, wear and tear, lubrication, effects of temperature, etc.), I've had an increasing a ppreciation for the value of the microswitch-warning lights which some buil ders have installed. I gotta admit that I am challenged by all things electrical, so I would h umbly ask that someone...someone who can handle wiring diagrams, warning li ghts, microswitches, and a digital camera (while skipping rope and chewing gum at the same time)...please, put together an illustrated tutorial (in cr ayon) showing just how this is done. Fred A-194 =5F-============================================================ =5F-= - The Europa-List Email Forum - =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =5F-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, =5F-= Archiv e Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =5F-= Photoshare, and much much more: =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator=3FEuropa-List =5F-=========== ================================================= =5F-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUM S - =5F-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! =5F-= --> http: //forums.matronics.com =5F-================================================== ========== =5F-= - List Contribution Web Site - =5F-= Thank you for your genero us support! =5F-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/ contribution =5F-=========================================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Checked by AVG. 8 6:35 PM -- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:05 PM PST US From: "Andrew Sarangan" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Removing PVA release agent Here is a link to some photos. It is in corners and crevices, so I doubt it is packing tape. It does not dissolve in water at all. I waited several hours. It really looks like cling wrap, or some type of peel ply, but no one has mentioned its existence in the moldings. It tears easily and only comes off in small bits, so it is hard to guess how much of the surface is covered by this stuff. I will try your suggestions on using a sharp blade and IPA. Let me know if you see anything in the photos. http://www.sarangan.org/aviation/europa/fuse/ch11.html On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 5:39 PM, wrote: > > Hi Andrew > > "I could only see small shreds of transparent >> plastic wrap stuck to various surfaces." > > I am not sure of the exact designation of the release compound europa > uses, but it is in fact water soluble. Using scotch bright with Palmolive > takes it off OK. What you are describing does not sound like a release > agent. My kit was covered with tan packaging tape. Boy what a pain to get > off. It was definite not 3M 375 tape (my favorite packaging tape used > extensive in model building), but most likely some cheap stuff that got > stuck better than many of my layups! I am wondering if what you see is > very thin clear packaging tape?? Or shrink wrap pulled very tight on > remains of packaging tape? > > www.mcmaster.com search: > Ultra-Sharp Razor blades > > Buy a hundred Ultra-Sharp Carbon Steel Blades. Try some mineral spirits > and razor blades (and finger nails), it may be tape?? Can also try some > Isopropyl Alcohol. See if you can disolve with other than watere. Use > scotch-bright with a solvent that seems to work. Be very careful with > acetone and blue foam. > > Shaving with very sharp razor blade and solvent sounds like a good plan > without seeing first hand?? > > Curious what your resolve will be. > > Ron P. > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:08 PM PST US From: Keith Hickling Subject: Re: Europa-List: Removing PVA release agent Andrew, I think what you are describing is plastic film remaining from the moulding process (? part of vacuum bagging process). As I mentioned, Andy told me there is no release agent on the non-moulded surfaces - ie on the underside of the cockpit module. All I found was excess epoxy ridges and small pieces of plastic film that was adherent in parts. If that's what it is, and you are talking about the underside of the CM that bonds to the fuselage, by the time you have sanded the bonding surfaces to remove the epoxy ridges, leaving a fairly flat surface, you should find that virtually all the plastic remnants are removed. Keith Hickling. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Sarangan" Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:05 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Removing PVA release agent > > Ron > > I used Palmolive dish soap and hot water. Made me sweat like a pig in > the 90-deg weather:-) I could only see small shreds of transparent > plastic wrap stuck to various surfaces. I am assuming this is the PVA > agent that has dried to form a thin film. I can peel off small chunks, > but I can't tell how much of the entire surface is covered with this > film. Most importantly, I tried soaking one of these pieces in hot > water and soap and it showed no tendency to dissolve even after an > hour. So obviously I am looking at the wrong stuff, or this is a lot > harder to remove than I had assumed. > Any thoughts? > > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:33 PM, wrote: >> >> Hi Andrew >> >> "I am not sure what the PVA release agent looks like. My cockpit module >>> has very thick glossy stuff all over the the underside. It looks more >>> like excessive epoxy. But I am concerned if this might be the PVA >>> release agent. If so, it's not going to come off with any amount of >>> washing in soap and water. Some heavy duty sanding would be in order. >>> Does anyone have some advice on this?" >> >> Use the hottest water you can tolerate, we used just plain green >> Palmolive >> dish washing soap (great hand cleaner)and scotchbright pad. Once water >> sheets rather than beads up you can switch to plain water and >> scotchbright. You need to rinse off all the soap which is no trivial job. >> Just keep rinsing, you could use green scouring pads (for sinks) as well. >> When you think you got it all off, use some hot water "when" you see >> bubbles forming, keep at it. >> >> Ron Parigoris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:29 PM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Removing PVA release agent FWIW some of my mouldings had a plastic film simmilar to what andrew described, but mine was orange in colour and so easy to spot, and embedded in the resin in a few spots, normally around complex corners etc, i just sanded the offending bits out as i went, as you suggest keith i believe it is a part of the bagging process and small pieces are getting trapped in the resin craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Keith Hickling Sent: Sunday, 20 July 2008 11:11 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Removing PVA release agent Andrew, I think what you are describing is plastic film remaining from the moulding process (? part of vacuum bagging process). As I mentioned, Andy told me there is no release agent on the non-moulded surfaces - ie on the underside of the cockpit module. All I found was excess epoxy ridges and small pieces of plastic film that was adherent in parts. If that's what it is, and you are talking about the underside of the CM that bonds to the fuselage, by the time you have sanded the bonding surfaces to remove the epoxy ridges, leaving a fairly flat surface, you should find that virtually all the plastic remnants are removed. Keith Hickling. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Sarangan" Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:05 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Removing PVA release agent > > Ron > > I used Palmolive dish soap and hot water. Made me sweat like a pig in > the 90-deg weather:-) I could only see small shreds of transparent > plastic wrap stuck to various surfaces. I am assuming this is the PVA > agent that has dried to form a thin film. I can peel off small chunks, > but I can't tell how much of the entire surface is covered with this > film. Most importantly, I tried soaking one of these pieces in hot > water and soap and it showed no tendency to dissolve even after an > hour. So obviously I am looking at the wrong stuff, or this is a lot > harder to remove than I had assumed. > Any thoughts? > > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:33 PM, wrote: >> >> Hi Andrew >> >> "I am not sure what the PVA release agent looks like. My cockpit module >>> has very thick glossy stuff all over the the underside. It looks more >>> like excessive epoxy. But I am concerned if this might be the PVA >>> release agent. If so, it's not going to come off with any amount of >>> washing in soap and water. Some heavy duty sanding would be in order. >>> Does anyone have some advice on this?" >> >> Use the hottest water you can tolerate, we used just plain green >> Palmolive >> dish washing soap (great hand cleaner)and scotchbright pad. Once water >> sheets rather than beads up you can switch to plain water and >> scotchbright. You need to rinse off all the soap which is no trivial job. >> Just keep rinsing, you could use green scouring pads (for sinks) as well. >> When you think you got it all off, use some hot water "when" you see >> bubbles forming, keep at it. >> >> Ron Parigoris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 2:01 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.