Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:53 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Mike Parkin)
2. 05:36 AM - Coolant overheating (Karl Heindl)
3. 07:02 AM - Inspecting Rotax Oil Filters (Carl Pattinson)
4. 10:22 AM - Re: Inspecting Rotax Oil Filters (Rick Stockton)
5. 10:24 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Rick Stockton)
6. 11:52 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Graham Singleton)
7. 01:04 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Mike Parkin)
8. 02:17 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (Robert C Harrison)
9. 02:57 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (Karl Heindl)
10. 03:45 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (craig bastin)
11. 04:31 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Keith Hickling)
12. 04:50 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (Karl Heindl)
13. 06:23 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (craig bastin)
14. 07:05 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (Karl Heindl)
15. 07:06 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (Robert Borger)
16. 07:52 PM - Jabiru 3300 Alternator Output (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
17. 08:05 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (craig bastin)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Pneumatic Installation |
"A second thought is that i am not really interested in AoA, because
especially in the Europa, the AoA varies greatly between flyable speeds
between 50 and 150 knots. It's the stall that i am interested in, and that
has little to do with the Angle of Attack. But please correct me if this
makes no sense!"
OH Dear !!!!! The AOA has EVERYTHING to do with the stall!!!
Regards,
Mike
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Coolant overheating |
I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:
I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolan
t temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temp
erature.
After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter tha
n the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only i
n the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in th
e coolant and is accurate.
I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ?
Cheers=2C
Karl
<html><div></div>
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Inspecting Rotax Oil Filters |
I have been intending to inspect my oil filter (as per the service manual)
for some while but without the necessary servicing tool never got round to
it till today.
So I neatly opened the used oil filter that had been on my workshop shelf
only to find that it wasnt as easy as it looked. Once opened it seems that
you have to surgically remove (ie: cut out with a sharp knife) the filter
paper from the filter mechanism which is not a neat or a clean job.
Then you have to remove the oil from the filter paper without presumably
removing any of the mettallic debris which may or may not be present.
We split the corrugated filter lengthwise into approximately 4 even sections
(about 18 ins each) and blotted them with clean kitchen towel to remove the
oil (without hopefully removing any metal particles). The kitchen towel was
also inspected for metal bits before discarding it. I guess a centrifuge
would come in handy here.
Eventually we ended up with relatively oil less filter paper which we could
inspect.
Did we find metal particles - yes, definitely
Were there lots - not sure, whats a lot ???
The wording in the Rotax manual is IMHO pretty ambiguous. It says "if an
increased amount of metal particles is found, search for the cause and
correct".
INCREASED ????? ----- From what???
My point is the maintenance manual dosent help here. In fact the coverall/
disclaimer is that you need to get an expert engine person to give you a
diagnosis.
So basically its NOT a job the average aircraft owner can competently carry
out.
Are there any resources out there that might help - eg: a picture diagnosis
chart. Is this perhaps covered in one of the service bulletins in more
detail?
Any suggestions here would be greatly appreciated.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
> <mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com>
>
> "A second thought is that i am not really interested in AoA, because
> especially in the Europa, the AoA varies greatly between flyable speeds
> between 50 and 150 knots. It's the stall that i am interested in, and that
> has little to do with the Angle of Attack. But please correct me if this
> makes no sense!"
>
>
> OH Dear !!!!! The AOA has EVERYTHING to do with the stall!!!
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Inspecting Rotax Oil Filters |
Carl, if you have some of the oil, collect it in a sample bottle and send it to
a oil Analyze lab. They will give you a complete breakdown of everything that
is in your oil and then you can do a trend monitoring. They will also tell
you which part in the engine is breakdown. I've used the service in every engine
I've own. I would do about three a year the first year the start two then
one a year. It gives a great history of the engine and can be used as a selling
piont.
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Pneumatic Installation |
That is what an AoA does. It shows you where you are in relation to the stall.
Every wings stall about 18 degree to the relative wind. The wind can come from
any direction. Up, down, straight ahead or up side down. The AoA is giving
you your angle above the stall or the degrees above a stall of 18 degrees.
Most fighter jet use it to get the slowest speed for the given weight and condition.
They will pick 14 degrees. That gives you four degrees to play with
Hope this helps
Mike Parkin <mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com> wrote:
"A second thought is that i am not really interested in AoA, because
especially in the Europa, the AoA varies greatly between flyable speeds
between 50 and 150 knots. It's the stall that i am interested in, and that
has little to do with the Angle of Attack. But please correct me if this
makes no sense!"
OH Dear !!!!! The AOA has EVERYTHING to do with the stall!!!
Regards,
Mike
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Jos
Stall ALWAYS occurs at the same AoA, never at the same airspeed. PLUS,
the ASI will tell you you are about to stall when it's too late, you
already have. AoA gives instant response and tells you AoA has changed
so ASI is now going to change but not for 20 seconds or so. The airplane
has inertia so does not change speed instantly.
All relevant speeds vary with weight, temperature, pressure etc but AoA
does not, it is consistent.
Imho, ASI is a secondary flight instrument, useful for navigation, AoA
is the primary one, or should be.
Graham
btw there are two stall conditions, flaps down and clean, not the same
but you knew that anyway ,,,,,,,,,,,
josok wrote:
> A second thought is that i am not really interested in AoA, because especially
in the Europa, the AoA varies greatly between flyable speeds between 50 and
150 knots. It's the stall that i am interested in, and that has little to do with
the Angle of Attack. But please correct me if this makes no sense!
>
> Regards
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
Message 7
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Pneumatic Installation |
Thanks Rick. Actually what I wrote was below the quote of Jos's that you
attributed to me.
Having spent a large part of my career flying fighters. AOA is not used to
'get the slowest speed for the given weight and condition' but more to find
the optimum Angle of Attack for a desired manoeuvre - landing, acceleration
or optimum combat turn performance - whatever.
Regards,
Mike Parkin
Do not archive.
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Stockton
Sent: 26 July 2008 18:22
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
That is what an AoA does. It shows you where you are in relation to the
stall. Every wings stall about 18 degree to the relative wind. The wind
can come from any direction. Up, down, straight ahead or up side down. The
AoA is giving you your angle above the stall or the degrees above a stall of
18 degrees. Most fighter jet use it to get the slowest speed for the given
weight and condition. They will pick 14 degrees. That gives you four
degrees to play with
Hope this helps
Mike Parkin <mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com> wrote:
"A second thought is that i am not really interested in AoA, because
especially in the Europa, the AoA varies greatly between
Message 8
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Coolant overheating |
Hi! Karl
Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler?
Bob H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: 26 July 2008 13:30
Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:
I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the
coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the
oil temperature.
After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter
than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always normal.
Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe
is in the coolant and is accurate.
I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ?
Cheers,
Karl
<html><div></div>
Message 9
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Coolant overheating |
Bob=2C
I certainly have=2C plus all the other gaps near the air intake. I sealed o
ff the gills and opened up the area at the
bottom aft of the radiators for main exit.
Karl<html><div></div>
From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ
a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sat=2C 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100
Hi! Karl
Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler?
Bob H
-----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai
lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: 2
6 July 2008 13:30To: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Europa-List: Coolant
overheating
I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:I had replaced all glyco
l coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the gr
ound and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature.After warming up
the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The o
il and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am
I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is
accurate.I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this myste
ry ? Cheers=2C Karl <html><div></div>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 10
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Coolant overheating |
Karl, just a thought here, but do you KNOW your temp sender is correct, IE
stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can know the
temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to vibration
etc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems from time to time
with faulty sender units that would
vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across minutes
or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to
work with, when you expect an engine to be running close to max temps, and
then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest
you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so you can
see if there is a difference.
The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are accurate,
is your spark timing, excessively advanced timing will cause high temps at
low RPM. ie warm up
and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20 - 30
degree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance from say 10 to
15 degrees BTDC. high
levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM but not
much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines vary spark timing
by as much
as 20 degrees depending on conditions.
hope this helps
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 7:55 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Bob,
I certainly have, plus all the other gaps near the air intake. I sealed
off the gills and opened up the area at the
bottom aft of the radiators for main exit.
Karl
<html><div></div>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100
Hi! Karl
Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler?
Bob H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: 26 July 2008 13:30
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:
I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the
coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the oil
temperature.
After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter
than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only
in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in
the coolant and is accurate.
I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ?
Cheers,
Karl
<html><div></div>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 11
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
For those interested, there is a good basic aerodynamics section on AOA in
John Denkers online book (Graham and Mike can obviously write their own
books !):
http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/aoa.html#toc20
Advanced Flight Systems (Angle-of- Attack.com) make an AOA system that
derives AOA from the pressure differences between 2 tiny pressure ports on
the top and bottom surface of the wing, and the static and pitot pressures -
no additional probes. It is much easier to install before the wings are
closed, but they claim it can be installed in a completed aircraft.
I have installed this but am not yet flying, so can't comment on its
accuracy, but I believe it is supposed to be quite good - I would appreciate
comments from anyone who has used it or knows how it performs.
Keith Hickling,
New Zealand.
95% done, much less than 95% to go!
Message 12
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Coolant overheating |
Hi Craig=2C
I am quite sure about the temperature. When it reaches about 120=2C it boil
s over into the overflow bottle=2C
which is what I would expect. And in the cruise it is normal.
The ignition timing is something new and I wouldn't know how to check that.
The engine is running just fine.
I will fly over to the Rotax agent this coming week and see if he has any i
deas.
Cheers=2C
Karl
<html><div></div>
From: craigb@onthenet.com.auTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ
a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sun=2C 27 Jul 2008 08:47:25 +1000
Karl=2C just a thought here=2C but do you KNOW your temp sender is correct
=2C IE stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can know the
temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to vibration e
tc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems from time to time w
ith faulty sender units that would
vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across minutes
or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to
work with=2C when you expect an engine to be running close to max temps=2C
and then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest
you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so you can s
ee if there is a difference.
The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are accurate
=2C is your spark timing=2C excessively advanced timing will cause high tem
ps at low RPM. ie warm up
and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20 - 30 d
egree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance from say 10 to 1
5 degrees BTDC. high
levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM but not
much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines vary spark timin
g by as much
as 20 degrees depending on conditions.
hope this helps
craig
-----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai
lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: Su
nday=2C 27 July 2008 7:55 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ
a-List: Coolant overheatingBob=2C I certainly have=2C plus all the other ga
ps near the air intake. I sealed off the gills and opened up the area at th
ebottom aft of the radiators for main exit. Karl<html><div></div>
From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ
a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sat=2C 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100
Hi! Karl
Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler?
Bob H
-----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai
lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: 2
6 July 2008 13:30To: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Europa-List: Coolant
overheating
I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:I had replaced all glyco
l coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the gr
ound and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature.After warming up
the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The o
il and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am
I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is
accurate.I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this myste
ry ? Cheers=2C Karl <html><div></div>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 13
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Coolant overheating |
I am sure the Rotax people would be able to check the timing in a couple of
minutes.
given I havent had a chance to get a really close look at a rotax engine I
couldnt comment on how they set the initial spark timing, If you had access
to
a pully or flywheel that runs at crankshaft speed it would be possible to
create your own timing marks, but it requires you to remove valve covers and
a spark plug so you
can determine when cylinder 1 is at TOP Dead Centre (ie when the fuel air
mix would be burning if the engine was running)mark the pully or flywheel
then coming back the correct number of degrees and creating a mark or
pointer on a fixed part of the engine next to the pully/flywheel. You can
then use an inductive pickup
timing light that will detect the spark pulse running to the plug and flash
a strobe beam in time with the spark. Point the light at your timing mark
with the engine running and you
can see the mark on the pully and the pointer should line up each flash of
the stobe.
As for the engine running fine, it may actually run slightly better that
normal at higher rpm as the advanced spark gives the fuel air mix longer to
burn, too much advance
is a bad thing though as it is much the same as your engine pre-igniting
which can happen with lower rated fuels which can do damage to your engine.
good luck
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 9:46 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Hi Craig,
I am quite sure about the temperature. When it reaches about 120, it boils
over into the overflow bottle,
which is what I would expect. And in the cruise it is normal.
The ignition timing is something new and I wouldn't know how to check
that. The engine is running just fine.
I will fly over to the Rotax agent this coming week and see if he has any
ideas.
Cheers,
Karl
<html><div></div>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: craigb@onthenet.com.au
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:47:25 +1000
Karl, just a thought here, but do you KNOW your temp sender is correct, IE
stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can know the
temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to vibration
etc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems from time to time
with faulty sender units that would
vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across
minutes or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to
work with, when you expect an engine to be running close to max temps, and
then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest
you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so you can
see if there is a difference.
The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are
accurate, is your spark timing, excessively advanced timing will cause high
temps at low RPM. ie warm up
and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20 - 30
degree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance from say 10 to
15 degrees BTDC. high
levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM but
not much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines vary spark
timing by as much
as 20 degrees depending on conditions.
hope this helps
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 7:55 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Bob,
I certainly have, plus all the other gaps near the air intake. I sealed
off the gills and opened up the area at the
bottom aft of the radiators for main exit.
Karl
<html><div></div>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100
Hi! Karl
Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler?
Bob H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: 26 July 2008 13:30
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:
I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the
coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the oil
temperature.
After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter
than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only
in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in
the coolant and is accurate.
I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ?
Cheers,
Karl
<html><div></div>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 14
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Coolant overheating |
Craig=2C
If it is the timing=2C would it not also affect the cylinder head temperatu
re ? I don't know much about engines.
What about a faulty water pump or an airlock.
Karl<html><div></div>
From: craigb@onthenet.com.auTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ
a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sun=2C 27 Jul 2008 11:26:16 +1000
I am sure the Rotax people would be able to check the timing in a couple of
minutes.
given I havent had a chance to get a really close look at a rotax engine I
couldnt comment on how they set the initial spark timing=2C If you had acce
ss to
a pully or flywheel that runs at crankshaft speed it would be possible to c
reate your own timing marks=2C but it requires you to remove valve covers a
nd a spark plug so you
can determine when cylinder 1 is at TOP Dead Centre (ie when the fuel air m
ix would be burning if the engine was running)mark the pully or flywheel
then coming back the correct number of degrees and creating a mark or poin
ter on a fixed part of the engine next to the pully/flywheel. You can then
use an inductive pickup
timing light that will detect the spark pulse running to the plug and flash
a strobe beam in time with the spark. Point the light at your timing mark
with the engine running and you
can see the mark on the pully and the pointer should line up each flash of
the stobe.
As for the engine running fine=2C it may actually run slightly better that
normal at higher rpm as the advanced spark gives the fuel air mix longer to
burn=2C too much advance
is a bad thing though as it is much the same as your engine pre-igniting wh
ich can happen with lower rated fuels which can do damage to your engine.
good luck
craig
-----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai
lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: Su
nday=2C 27 July 2008 9:46 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ
a-List: Coolant overheatingHi Craig=2C I am quite sure about the temperatur
e. When it reaches about 120=2C it boils over into the overflow bottle=2C w
hich is what I would expect. And in the cruise it is normal.The ignition ti
ming is something new and I wouldn't know how to check that. The engine is
running just fine.I will fly over to the Rotax agent this coming week and s
ee if he has any ideas.Cheers=2C Karl <html><div></div>
From: craigb@onthenet.com.auTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ
a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sun=2C 27 Jul 2008 08:47:25 +1000
Karl=2C just a thought here=2C but do you KNOW your temp sender is correct
=2C IE stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can know the
temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to vibration e
tc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems from time to time w
ith faulty sender units that would
vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across minutes
or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to
work with=2C when you expect an engine to be running close to max temps=2C
and then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest
you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so you can s
ee if there is a difference.
The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are accurate
=2C is your spark timing=2C excessively advanced timing will cause high tem
ps at low RPM. ie warm up
and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20 - 30 d
egree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance from say 10 to 1
5 degrees BTDC. high
levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM but not
much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines vary spark timin
g by as much
as 20 degrees depending on conditions.
hope this helps
craig
-----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai
lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: Su
nday=2C 27 July 2008 7:55 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ
a-List: Coolant overheatingBob=2C I certainly have=2C plus all the other ga
ps near the air intake. I sealed off the gills and opened up the area at th
ebottom aft of the radiators for main exit. Karl<html><div></div>
From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ
a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sat=2C 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100
Hi! Karl
Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler?
Bob H
-----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai
lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: 2
6 July 2008 13:30To: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Europa-List: Coolant
overheating
I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:I had replaced all glyco
l coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the gr
ound and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature.After warming up
the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The o
il and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am
I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is
accurate.I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this myste
ry ? Cheers=2C Karl <html><div></div>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 15
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Coolant overheating |
Europaphiles,
The Rotax 9xx engines have a fixed timing determined electronically by
tabs on the flywheel & sensors on the frame. See my build web page in
the signature block. I have an album on the Rotax 9xx school. On the
first page of the album are pics and comments on the timing system.
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(99.9% done) Presently fighting gremlins in the starting circuit.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Jul 26, 2008, at 20:26, craig bastin wrote:
> I am sure the Rotax people would be able to check the timing in a
> couple of minutes.
> given I havent had a chance to get a really close look at a rotax
> engine I couldnt comment on how they set the initial spark timing,
> If you had access to
> a pully or flywheel that runs at crankshaft speed it would be
> possible to create your own timing marks, but it requires you to
> remove valve covers and a spark plug so you
> can determine when cylinder 1 is at TOP Dead Centre (ie when the
> fuel air mix would be burning if the engine was running)mark the
> pully or flywheel
> then coming back the correct number of degrees and creating a mark
> or pointer on a fixed part of the engine next to the pully/flywheel.
> You can then use an inductive pickup
> timing light that will detect the spark pulse running to the plug
> and flash a strobe beam in time with the spark. Point the light at
> your timing mark with the engine running and you
> can see the mark on the pully and the pointer should line up each
> flash of the stobe.
> As for the engine running fine, it may actually run slightly better
> that normal at higher rpm as the advanced spark gives the fuel air
> mix longer to burn, too much advance
> is a bad thing though as it is much the same as your engine pre-
> igniting which can happen with lower rated fuels which can do damage
> to your engine.
>
> good luck
>
> craig
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> ]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
> Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 9:46 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
>
> Hi Craig,
>
> I am quite sure about the temperature. When it reaches about 120, it
> boils over into the overflow bottle,
> which is what I would expect. And in the cruise it is normal.
> The ignition timing is something new and I wouldn't know how to
> check that. The engine is running just fine.
> I will fly over to the Rotax agent this coming week and see if he
> has any ideas.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Karl
>
>
> <html><div></div>
>
>
> From: craigb@onthenet.com.au
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:47:25 +1000
>
>
> Karl, just a thought here, but do you KNOW your temp sender is
> correct, IE stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can
> know the
> temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to
> vibration etc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems
> from time to time with faulty sender units that would
> vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across
> minutes or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to
> work with, when you expect an engine to be running close to max
> temps, and then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest
> you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so
> you can see if there is a difference.
>
> The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are
> accurate, is your spark timing, excessively advanced timing will
> cause high temps at low RPM. ie warm up
> and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20
> - 30 degree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance
> from say 10 to 15 degrees BTDC. high
> levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM
> but not much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines
> vary spark timing by as much
> as 20 degrees depending on conditions.
>
> hope this helps
>
> craig
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> ]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
> Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 7:55 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
>
> Bob,
>
> I certainly have, plus all the other gaps near the air intake. I
> sealed off the gills and opened up the area at the
> bottom aft of the radiators for main exit.
>
> Karl
>
> <html><div></div>
>
>
> From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100
>
>
> Hi! Karl
> Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler?
> Bob H
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> ] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
> Sent: 26 July 2008 13:30
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
>
>
> I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:
> I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the
> coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of
> the oil temperature.
> After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F)
> hotter than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are
> always normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The
> coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate.
> I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Karl
>
>
> <html><div></div>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
> ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
> target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
> ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
> target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> ttp://forums.matronics.com
> =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
> ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://
> www.matronics.com/c
>
>
Message 16
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Jabiru 3300 Alternator Output |
Good day All,
For those that are running the Jab3300......what kind of actual current
readings are you getting? In other words, how much actual output will the
alternator create? Can it keep up with a Night VFR flight? Whelen strobes and
running lights, Taxi/Landing lights, and normal instrumentation.
Thanks in advance.
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)
Message 17
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Coolant overheating |
I theory yes, but if the coolant really is the indicated temp, then given
the air and water cooling, I would expect the whole engine to be running
hotter
but this isnt the case is it. Do you have an EGT, it would be interesting to
see if there is any large change in EG temps from climb to cruise if you
didnt alter
mixture or throttle. I would doubt it would be an airlock as this normally
would give you a localised HOT Spot with perhaps one cylinder running hot
(also not the case according to your CHT)
a worn out water pump can give some weird results but unless the impeller is
slipping at certain RPM again you would expect higher temps almost all the
time, unless you are getting enough
air only cooling in cruise flight to overcome low water flow rates.
Excessively high flow rates can also give you high coolant temps as the
water passes through the radiator too fast to be cooled
effectively at low speeds this is normally caused by a jammed or broken
thermostat that controls water flow based on temperature (same as in your
car) if your engine takes longer to warm up
than it used to and then runs hotter I would suspect that, but I dont
believe the 9XX engine use a thermostat, given the low cruise temps (50 deg
C) some are reporting.
I still believe it worth while to try a fluid filled temp gauge with a bulb
you insert into the water line and tube back to the gauge, just to confirm
your water temps are accurate. This will be
quick, easy and cheap to do, you can get one from most auto parts stores for
around $25. That way you know you are correct, and not being tricked into
thinking you have a coolant
problem, when it could be an electrical problem giving you a false reading
to high temps.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 12:03 PM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Craig,
If it is the timing, would it not also affect the cylinder head
temperature ? I don't know much about engines.
What about a faulty water pump or an airlock.
Karl
<html><div></div>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: craigb@onthenet.com.au
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:26:16 +1000
I am sure the Rotax people would be able to check the timing in a couple
of minutes.
given I havent had a chance to get a really close look at a rotax engine I
couldnt comment on how they set the initial spark timing, If you had access
to
a pully or flywheel that runs at crankshaft speed it would be possible to
create your own timing marks, but it requires you to remove valve covers and
a spark plug so you
can determine when cylinder 1 is at TOP Dead Centre (ie when the fuel air
mix would be burning if the engine was running)mark the pully or flywheel
then coming back the correct number of degrees and creating a mark or
pointer on a fixed part of the engine next to the pully/flywheel. You can
then use an inductive pickup
timing light that will detect the spark pulse running to the plug and
flash a strobe beam in time with the spark. Point the light at your timing
mark with the engine running and you
can see the mark on the pully and the pointer should line up each flash of
the stobe.
As for the engine running fine, it may actually run slightly better that
normal at higher rpm as the advanced spark gives the fuel air mix longer to
burn, too much advance
is a bad thing though as it is much the same as your engine pre-igniting
which can happen with lower rated fuels which can do damage to your engine.
good luck
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 9:46 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Hi Craig,
I am quite sure about the temperature. When it reaches about 120, it
boils over into the overflow bottle,
which is what I would expect. And in the cruise it is normal.
The ignition timing is something new and I wouldn't know how to check
that. The engine is running just fine.
I will fly over to the Rotax agent this coming week and see if he has
any ideas.
Cheers,
Karl
<html><div></div>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: craigb@onthenet.com.au
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:47:25 +1000
Karl, just a thought here, but do you KNOW your temp sender is correct,
IE stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can know the
temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to
vibration etc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems from time
to time with faulty sender units that would
vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across
minutes or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to
work with, when you expect an engine to be running close to max temps,
and then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest
you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so you
can see if there is a difference.
The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are
accurate, is your spark timing, excessively advanced timing will cause high
temps at low RPM. ie warm up
and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20 -
30 degree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance from say 10
to 15 degrees BTDC. high
levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM but
not much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines vary spark
timing by as much
as 20 degrees depending on conditions.
hope this helps
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 7:55 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Bob,
I certainly have, plus all the other gaps near the air intake. I
sealed off the gills and opened up the area at the
bottom aft of the radiators for main exit.
Karl
<html><div></div>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100
Hi! Karl
Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler?
Bob H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: 26 July 2008 13:30
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:
I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the
coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the oil
temperature.
After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F)
hotter than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always
normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp.
probe is in the coolant and is accurate.
I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ?
Cheers,
Karl
<html><div></div>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|