---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/26/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:53 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Mike Parkin) 2. 05:36 AM - Coolant overheating (Karl Heindl) 3. 07:02 AM - Inspecting Rotax Oil Filters (Carl Pattinson) 4. 10:22 AM - Re: Inspecting Rotax Oil Filters (Rick Stockton) 5. 10:24 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Rick Stockton) 6. 11:52 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Graham Singleton) 7. 01:04 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Mike Parkin) 8. 02:17 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (Robert C Harrison) 9. 02:57 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (Karl Heindl) 10. 03:45 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (craig bastin) 11. 04:31 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Keith Hickling) 12. 04:50 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (Karl Heindl) 13. 06:23 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (craig bastin) 14. 07:05 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (Karl Heindl) 15. 07:06 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (Robert Borger) 16. 07:52 PM - Jabiru 3300 Alternator Output (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 17. 08:05 PM - Re: Coolant overheating (craig bastin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:59 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation "A second thought is that i am not really interested in AoA, because especially in the Europa, the AoA varies greatly between flyable speeds between 50 and 150 knots. It's the stall that i am interested in, and that has little to do with the Angle of Attack. But please correct me if this makes no sense!" OH Dear !!!!! The AOA has EVERYTHING to do with the stall!!! Regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:18 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I have been unable to solve my overheating problem: I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolan t temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temp erature. After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter tha n the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only i n the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in th e coolant and is accurate. I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ? Cheers=2C Karl
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:11 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: Inspecting Rotax Oil Filters I have been intending to inspect my oil filter (as per the service manual) for some while but without the necessary servicing tool never got round to it till today. So I neatly opened the used oil filter that had been on my workshop shelf only to find that it wasnt as easy as it looked. Once opened it seems that you have to surgically remove (ie: cut out with a sharp knife) the filter paper from the filter mechanism which is not a neat or a clean job. Then you have to remove the oil from the filter paper without presumably removing any of the mettallic debris which may or may not be present. We split the corrugated filter lengthwise into approximately 4 even sections (about 18 ins each) and blotted them with clean kitchen towel to remove the oil (without hopefully removing any metal particles). The kitchen towel was also inspected for metal bits before discarding it. I guess a centrifuge would come in handy here. Eventually we ended up with relatively oil less filter paper which we could inspect. Did we find metal particles - yes, definitely Were there lots - not sure, whats a lot ??? The wording in the Rotax manual is IMHO pretty ambiguous. It says "if an increased amount of metal particles is found, search for the cause and correct". INCREASED ????? ----- From what??? My point is the maintenance manual dosent help here. In fact the coverall/ disclaimer is that you need to get an expert engine person to give you a diagnosis. So basically its NOT a job the average aircraft owner can competently carry out. Are there any resources out there that might help - eg: a picture diagnosis chart. Is this perhaps covered in one of the service bulletins in more detail? Any suggestions here would be greatly appreciated. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Parkin" Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:49 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation > > > "A second thought is that i am not really interested in AoA, because > especially in the Europa, the AoA varies greatly between flyable speeds > between 50 and 150 knots. It's the stall that i am interested in, and that > has little to do with the Angle of Attack. But please correct me if this > makes no sense!" > > > OH Dear !!!!! The AOA has EVERYTHING to do with the stall!!! > > Regards, > > Mike > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:40 AM PST US From: Rick Stockton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Inspecting Rotax Oil Filters Carl, if you have some of the oil, collect it in a sample bottle and send it to a oil Analyze lab. They will give you a complete breakdown of everything that is in your oil and then you can do a trend monitoring. They will also tell you which part in the engine is breakdown. I've used the service in every engine I've own. I would do about three a year the first year the start two then one a year. It gives a great history of the engine and can be used as a selling piont. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:58 AM PST US From: Rick Stockton Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation That is what an AoA does. It shows you where you are in relation to the stall. Every wings stall about 18 degree to the relative wind. The wind can come from any direction. Up, down, straight ahead or up side down. The AoA is giving you your angle above the stall or the degrees above a stall of 18 degrees. Most fighter jet use it to get the slowest speed for the given weight and condition. They will pick 14 degrees. That gives you four degrees to play with Hope this helps Mike Parkin wrote: "A second thought is that i am not really interested in AoA, because especially in the Europa, the AoA varies greatly between flyable speeds between 50 and 150 knots. It's the stall that i am interested in, and that has little to do with the Angle of Attack. But please correct me if this makes no sense!" OH Dear !!!!! The AOA has EVERYTHING to do with the stall!!! Regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:13 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation Jos Stall ALWAYS occurs at the same AoA, never at the same airspeed. PLUS, the ASI will tell you you are about to stall when it's too late, you already have. AoA gives instant response and tells you AoA has changed so ASI is now going to change but not for 20 seconds or so. The airplane has inertia so does not change speed instantly. All relevant speeds vary with weight, temperature, pressure etc but AoA does not, it is consistent. Imho, ASI is a secondary flight instrument, useful for navigation, AoA is the primary one, or should be. Graham btw there are two stall conditions, flaps down and clean, not the same but you knew that anyway ,,,,,,,,,,, josok wrote: > A second thought is that i am not really interested in AoA, because especially in the Europa, the AoA varies greatly between flyable speeds between 50 and 150 knots. It's the stall that i am interested in, and that has little to do with the Angle of Attack. But please correct me if this makes no sense! > > Regards > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:04:44 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation Thanks Rick. Actually what I wrote was below the quote of Jos's that you attributed to me. Having spent a large part of my career flying fighters. AOA is not used to 'get the slowest speed for the given weight and condition' but more to find the optimum Angle of Attack for a desired manoeuvre - landing, acceleration or optimum combat turn performance - whatever. Regards, Mike Parkin Do not archive. From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Stockton Sent: 26 July 2008 18:22 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation That is what an AoA does. It shows you where you are in relation to the stall. Every wings stall about 18 degree to the relative wind. The wind can come from any direction. Up, down, straight ahead or up side down. The AoA is giving you your angle above the stall or the degrees above a stall of 18 degrees. Most fighter jet use it to get the slowest speed for the given weight and condition. They will pick 14 degrees. That gives you four degrees to play with Hope this helps Mike Parkin wrote: "A second thought is that i am not really interested in AoA, because especially in the Europa, the AoA varies greatly between ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:27 PM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Hi! Karl Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler? Bob H -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 26 July 2008 13:30 Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I have been unable to solve my overheating problem: I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature. After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate. I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ? Cheers, Karl
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:57:16 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Bob=2C I certainly have=2C plus all the other gaps near the air intake. I sealed o ff the gills and opened up the area at the bottom aft of the radiators for main exit. Karl
From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sat=2C 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100 Hi! Karl Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler? Bob H -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: 2 6 July 2008 13:30To: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:I had replaced all glyco l coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the gr ound and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature.After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The o il and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate.I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this myste ry ? Cheers=2C Karl
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:00 PM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Karl, just a thought here, but do you KNOW your temp sender is correct, IE stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can know the temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to vibration etc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems from time to time with faulty sender units that would vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across minutes or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to work with, when you expect an engine to be running close to max temps, and then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so you can see if there is a difference. The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are accurate, is your spark timing, excessively advanced timing will cause high temps at low RPM. ie warm up and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20 - 30 degree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance from say 10 to 15 degrees BTDC. high levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM but not much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines vary spark timing by as much as 20 degrees depending on conditions. hope this helps craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 7:55 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Bob, I certainly have, plus all the other gaps near the air intake. I sealed off the gills and opened up the area at the bottom aft of the radiators for main exit. Karl
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100 Hi! Karl Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler? Bob H -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 26 July 2008 13:30 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I have been unable to solve my overheating problem: I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature. After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate. I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ? Cheers, Karl
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:25 PM PST US From: Keith Hickling Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation For those interested, there is a good basic aerodynamics section on AOA in John Denkers online book (Graham and Mike can obviously write their own books !): http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/aoa.html#toc20 Advanced Flight Systems (Angle-of- Attack.com) make an AOA system that derives AOA from the pressure differences between 2 tiny pressure ports on the top and bottom surface of the wing, and the static and pitot pressures - no additional probes. It is much easier to install before the wings are closed, but they claim it can be installed in a completed aircraft. I have installed this but am not yet flying, so can't comment on its accuracy, but I believe it is supposed to be quite good - I would appreciate comments from anyone who has used it or knows how it performs. Keith Hickling, New Zealand. 95% done, much less than 95% to go! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:08 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Hi Craig=2C I am quite sure about the temperature. When it reaches about 120=2C it boil s over into the overflow bottle=2C which is what I would expect. And in the cruise it is normal. The ignition timing is something new and I wouldn't know how to check that. The engine is running just fine. I will fly over to the Rotax agent this coming week and see if he has any i deas. Cheers=2C Karl
From: craigb@onthenet.com.auTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sun=2C 27 Jul 2008 08:47:25 +1000 Karl=2C just a thought here=2C but do you KNOW your temp sender is correct =2C IE stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can know the temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to vibration e tc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems from time to time w ith faulty sender units that would vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across minutes or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to work with=2C when you expect an engine to be running close to max temps=2C and then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so you can s ee if there is a difference. The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are accurate =2C is your spark timing=2C excessively advanced timing will cause high tem ps at low RPM. ie warm up and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20 - 30 d egree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance from say 10 to 1 5 degrees BTDC. high levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM but not much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines vary spark timin g by as much as 20 degrees depending on conditions. hope this helps craig -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: Su nday=2C 27 July 2008 7:55 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ a-List: Coolant overheatingBob=2C I certainly have=2C plus all the other ga ps near the air intake. I sealed off the gills and opened up the area at th ebottom aft of the radiators for main exit. Karl
From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sat=2C 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100 Hi! Karl Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler? Bob H -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: 2 6 July 2008 13:30To: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:I had replaced all glyco l coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the gr ound and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature.After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The o il and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate.I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this myste ry ? Cheers=2C Karl
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:57 PM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I am sure the Rotax people would be able to check the timing in a couple of minutes. given I havent had a chance to get a really close look at a rotax engine I couldnt comment on how they set the initial spark timing, If you had access to a pully or flywheel that runs at crankshaft speed it would be possible to create your own timing marks, but it requires you to remove valve covers and a spark plug so you can determine when cylinder 1 is at TOP Dead Centre (ie when the fuel air mix would be burning if the engine was running)mark the pully or flywheel then coming back the correct number of degrees and creating a mark or pointer on a fixed part of the engine next to the pully/flywheel. You can then use an inductive pickup timing light that will detect the spark pulse running to the plug and flash a strobe beam in time with the spark. Point the light at your timing mark with the engine running and you can see the mark on the pully and the pointer should line up each flash of the stobe. As for the engine running fine, it may actually run slightly better that normal at higher rpm as the advanced spark gives the fuel air mix longer to burn, too much advance is a bad thing though as it is much the same as your engine pre-igniting which can happen with lower rated fuels which can do damage to your engine. good luck craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 9:46 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Hi Craig, I am quite sure about the temperature. When it reaches about 120, it boils over into the overflow bottle, which is what I would expect. And in the cruise it is normal. The ignition timing is something new and I wouldn't know how to check that. The engine is running just fine. I will fly over to the Rotax agent this coming week and see if he has any ideas. Cheers, Karl
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: craigb@onthenet.com.au To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:47:25 +1000 Karl, just a thought here, but do you KNOW your temp sender is correct, IE stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can know the temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to vibration etc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems from time to time with faulty sender units that would vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across minutes or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to work with, when you expect an engine to be running close to max temps, and then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so you can see if there is a difference. The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are accurate, is your spark timing, excessively advanced timing will cause high temps at low RPM. ie warm up and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20 - 30 degree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance from say 10 to 15 degrees BTDC. high levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM but not much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines vary spark timing by as much as 20 degrees depending on conditions. hope this helps craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 7:55 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Bob, I certainly have, plus all the other gaps near the air intake. I sealed off the gills and opened up the area at the bottom aft of the radiators for main exit. Karl
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100 Hi! Karl Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler? Bob H -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 26 July 2008 13:30 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I have been unable to solve my overheating problem: I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature. After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate. I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ? Cheers, Karl
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:36 PM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Craig=2C If it is the timing=2C would it not also affect the cylinder head temperatu re ? I don't know much about engines. What about a faulty water pump or an airlock. Karl
From: craigb@onthenet.com.auTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sun=2C 27 Jul 2008 11:26:16 +1000 I am sure the Rotax people would be able to check the timing in a couple of minutes. given I havent had a chance to get a really close look at a rotax engine I couldnt comment on how they set the initial spark timing=2C If you had acce ss to a pully or flywheel that runs at crankshaft speed it would be possible to c reate your own timing marks=2C but it requires you to remove valve covers a nd a spark plug so you can determine when cylinder 1 is at TOP Dead Centre (ie when the fuel air m ix would be burning if the engine was running)mark the pully or flywheel then coming back the correct number of degrees and creating a mark or poin ter on a fixed part of the engine next to the pully/flywheel. You can then use an inductive pickup timing light that will detect the spark pulse running to the plug and flash a strobe beam in time with the spark. Point the light at your timing mark with the engine running and you can see the mark on the pully and the pointer should line up each flash of the stobe. As for the engine running fine=2C it may actually run slightly better that normal at higher rpm as the advanced spark gives the fuel air mix longer to burn=2C too much advance is a bad thing though as it is much the same as your engine pre-igniting wh ich can happen with lower rated fuels which can do damage to your engine. good luck craig -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: Su nday=2C 27 July 2008 9:46 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ a-List: Coolant overheatingHi Craig=2C I am quite sure about the temperatur e. When it reaches about 120=2C it boils over into the overflow bottle=2C w hich is what I would expect. And in the cruise it is normal.The ignition ti ming is something new and I wouldn't know how to check that. The engine is running just fine.I will fly over to the Rotax agent this coming week and s ee if he has any ideas.Cheers=2C Karl
From: craigb@onthenet.com.auTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sun=2C 27 Jul 2008 08:47:25 +1000 Karl=2C just a thought here=2C but do you KNOW your temp sender is correct =2C IE stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can know the temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to vibration e tc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems from time to time w ith faulty sender units that would vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across minutes or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to work with=2C when you expect an engine to be running close to max temps=2C and then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so you can s ee if there is a difference. The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are accurate =2C is your spark timing=2C excessively advanced timing will cause high tem ps at low RPM. ie warm up and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20 - 30 d egree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance from say 10 to 1 5 degrees BTDC. high levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM but not much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines vary spark timin g by as much as 20 degrees depending on conditions. hope this helps craig -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: Su nday=2C 27 July 2008 7:55 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ a-List: Coolant overheatingBob=2C I certainly have=2C plus all the other ga ps near the air intake. I sealed off the gills and opened up the area at th ebottom aft of the radiators for main exit. Karl
From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ a-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sat=2C 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100 Hi! Karl Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler? Bob H -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl HeindlSent: 2 6 July 2008 13:30To: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:I had replaced all glyco l coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the gr ound and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature.After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The o il and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate.I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this myste ry ? Cheers=2C Karl
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:02 PM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Europaphiles, The Rotax 9xx engines have a fixed timing determined electronically by tabs on the flywheel & sensors on the frame. See my build web page in the signature block. I have an album on the Rotax 9xx school. On the first page of the album are pics and comments on the timing system. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (99.9% done) Presently fighting gremlins in the starting circuit. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Jul 26, 2008, at 20:26, craig bastin wrote: > I am sure the Rotax people would be able to check the timing in a > couple of minutes. > given I havent had a chance to get a really close look at a rotax > engine I couldnt comment on how they set the initial spark timing, > If you had access to > a pully or flywheel that runs at crankshaft speed it would be > possible to create your own timing marks, but it requires you to > remove valve covers and a spark plug so you > can determine when cylinder 1 is at TOP Dead Centre (ie when the > fuel air mix would be burning if the engine was running)mark the > pully or flywheel > then coming back the correct number of degrees and creating a mark > or pointer on a fixed part of the engine next to the pully/flywheel. > You can then use an inductive pickup > timing light that will detect the spark pulse running to the plug > and flash a strobe beam in time with the spark. Point the light at > your timing mark with the engine running and you > can see the mark on the pully and the pointer should line up each > flash of the stobe. > As for the engine running fine, it may actually run slightly better > that normal at higher rpm as the advanced spark gives the fuel air > mix longer to burn, too much advance > is a bad thing though as it is much the same as your engine pre- > igniting which can happen with lower rated fuels which can do damage > to your engine. > > good luck > > craig > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > ]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl > Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 9:46 AM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating > > Hi Craig, > > I am quite sure about the temperature. When it reaches about 120, it > boils over into the overflow bottle, > which is what I would expect. And in the cruise it is normal. > The ignition timing is something new and I wouldn't know how to > check that. The engine is running just fine. > I will fly over to the Rotax agent this coming week and see if he > has any ideas. > > Cheers, > > Karl > > >
> > > From: craigb@onthenet.com.au > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating > Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:47:25 +1000 > > > Karl, just a thought here, but do you KNOW your temp sender is > correct, IE stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can > know the > temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to > vibration etc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems > from time to time with faulty sender units that would > vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across > minutes or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to > work with, when you expect an engine to be running close to max > temps, and then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest > you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so > you can see if there is a difference. > > The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are > accurate, is your spark timing, excessively advanced timing will > cause high temps at low RPM. ie warm up > and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20 > - 30 degree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance > from say 10 to 15 degrees BTDC. high > levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM > but not much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines > vary spark timing by as much > as 20 degrees depending on conditions. > > hope this helps > > craig > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > ]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl > Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 7:55 AM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating > > Bob, > > I certainly have, plus all the other gaps near the air intake. I > sealed off the gills and opened up the area at the > bottom aft of the radiators for main exit. > > Karl > >
> > > From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating > Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100 > > > Hi! Karl > Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler? > Bob H > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > ] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl > Sent: 26 July 2008 13:30 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating > > > I have been unable to solve my overheating problem: > I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the > coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of > the oil temperature. > After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) > hotter than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are > always normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The > coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate. > I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ? > > Cheers, > > Karl > > >
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref > ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// > www.matronics.com/c > target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ttp://forums.matronics.com > =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref > ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// > www.matronics.com/c > target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ttp://forums.matronics.com > =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref > ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// > www.matronics.com/c > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:29 PM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Jabiru 3300 Alternator Output Good day All, For those that are running the Jab3300......what kind of actual current readings are you getting? In other words, how much actual output will the alternator create? Can it keep up with a Night VFR flight? Whelen strobes and running lights, Taxi/Landing lights, and normal instrumentation. Thanks in advance. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Jabiru 3300 Sensenich R64Z N Ground Adjustable Prop **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:05 PM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I theory yes, but if the coolant really is the indicated temp, then given the air and water cooling, I would expect the whole engine to be running hotter but this isnt the case is it. Do you have an EGT, it would be interesting to see if there is any large change in EG temps from climb to cruise if you didnt alter mixture or throttle. I would doubt it would be an airlock as this normally would give you a localised HOT Spot with perhaps one cylinder running hot (also not the case according to your CHT) a worn out water pump can give some weird results but unless the impeller is slipping at certain RPM again you would expect higher temps almost all the time, unless you are getting enough air only cooling in cruise flight to overcome low water flow rates. Excessively high flow rates can also give you high coolant temps as the water passes through the radiator too fast to be cooled effectively at low speeds this is normally caused by a jammed or broken thermostat that controls water flow based on temperature (same as in your car) if your engine takes longer to warm up than it used to and then runs hotter I would suspect that, but I dont believe the 9XX engine use a thermostat, given the low cruise temps (50 deg C) some are reporting. I still believe it worth while to try a fluid filled temp gauge with a bulb you insert into the water line and tube back to the gauge, just to confirm your water temps are accurate. This will be quick, easy and cheap to do, you can get one from most auto parts stores for around $25. That way you know you are correct, and not being tricked into thinking you have a coolant problem, when it could be an electrical problem giving you a false reading to high temps. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 12:03 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Craig, If it is the timing, would it not also affect the cylinder head temperature ? I don't know much about engines. What about a faulty water pump or an airlock. Karl
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: craigb@onthenet.com.au To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:26:16 +1000 I am sure the Rotax people would be able to check the timing in a couple of minutes. given I havent had a chance to get a really close look at a rotax engine I couldnt comment on how they set the initial spark timing, If you had access to a pully or flywheel that runs at crankshaft speed it would be possible to create your own timing marks, but it requires you to remove valve covers and a spark plug so you can determine when cylinder 1 is at TOP Dead Centre (ie when the fuel air mix would be burning if the engine was running)mark the pully or flywheel then coming back the correct number of degrees and creating a mark or pointer on a fixed part of the engine next to the pully/flywheel. You can then use an inductive pickup timing light that will detect the spark pulse running to the plug and flash a strobe beam in time with the spark. Point the light at your timing mark with the engine running and you can see the mark on the pully and the pointer should line up each flash of the stobe. As for the engine running fine, it may actually run slightly better that normal at higher rpm as the advanced spark gives the fuel air mix longer to burn, too much advance is a bad thing though as it is much the same as your engine pre-igniting which can happen with lower rated fuels which can do damage to your engine. good luck craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 9:46 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Hi Craig, I am quite sure about the temperature. When it reaches about 120, it boils over into the overflow bottle, which is what I would expect. And in the cruise it is normal. The ignition timing is something new and I wouldn't know how to check that. The engine is running just fine. I will fly over to the Rotax agent this coming week and see if he has any ideas. Cheers, Karl
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: craigb@onthenet.com.au To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 08:47:25 +1000 Karl, just a thought here, but do you KNOW your temp sender is correct, IE stuck it in a pot of just boiled water which you can know the temp of between one or two degrees of error and subjected it to vibration etc by shaking it etc. When I was racing we had problems from time to time with faulty sender units that would vary by as much as 20 deg C. and this variation would change across minutes or even instantly in some cases. It was a major pain to work with, when you expect an engine to be running close to max temps, and then it spikes 20 degrees over max. Might i suggest you try a fluid filled type sealed unit to run as a comparison so you can see if there is a difference. The other thing i would be looking at if you believe the temps are accurate, is your spark timing, excessively advanced timing will cause high temps at low RPM. ie warm up and taxi. but will not be as noticable at higher RPM. I have seen 20 - 30 degree C increase in temps from around 5 degrees of advance from say 10 to 15 degrees BTDC. high levels of spark timing advance are generally helpfull at higher RPM but not much benefit at low RPM. Some of the modern bike engines vary spark timing by as much as 20 degrees depending on conditions. hope this helps craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: Sunday, 27 July 2008 7:55 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Bob, I certainly have, plus all the other gaps near the air intake. I sealed off the gills and opened up the area at the bottom aft of the radiators for main exit. Karl
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:13:02 +0100 Hi! Karl Have you blocked the gap between cowl and underside of oil cooler? Bob H -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 26 July 2008 13:30 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I have been unable to solve my overheating problem: I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature. After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate. I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ? Cheers, Karl
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