Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:00 AM - Maxi DOTH (A B Milne)
2. 12:41 AM - Personal Microbalancer. (Mike Parkin)
3. 01:09 AM - Re: Coolant overheating (Carl Pattinson)
4. 01:09 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (josok)
5. 01:44 AM - testing (Remi Guerner)
6. 01:48 AM - testing (Remi Guerner)
7. 02:07 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Keith Hickling)
8. 03:49 AM - Re: Maxi DOTH (Tim Houlihan)
9. 05:39 AM - Debris in filter and cooling problems (Frank Mycroft)
10. 06:55 AM - Re: Coolant overheating (Karl Heindl)
11. 07:15 AM - Re: Personal Microbalancer. (Paul McAllister)
12. 07:19 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Karl Heindl)
13. 07:46 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Paul McAllister)
14. 08:35 AM - Re: Maxi DOTH (William Harrison)
15. 08:45 AM - Re: Maxi DOTH (Robert C Harrison)
16. 10:58 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Graham Singleton)
17. 01:44 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Mike Parkin)
18. 02:07 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (josok)
19. 03:46 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Keith Hickling)
20. 04:04 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Graham Singleton)
Message 1
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Anyone fancy a Scotch expedition? The plan is to base in Perth (EGPT)
in the week Sunday 3rd August returning via the LAA Regional in Sherburn
on 9th August. All the mainland airfields in Scotland and all those in
the Western Isles are within 150Nm of Perth and Perth is East of the
scottish weather line so daily expeditions for lunch and interest is
envisaged. Perth airfield has a Skylodge on the airfield and the city
has plenty of hotels and restaurants to cope with the evenings.
Could any who fancy such a trip to the romantic and remote such as
Teiree and Barra let me know.
Hoping,
Alasdair Milne.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Personal Microbalancer. |
I am interested in a Personal Microbalancer. Would anyone from our Europa
Fraternity visiting Oshkosh next week be prepared to obtain one for me and
post on. Please contact me off list.
Regards,
Mike
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Coolant overheating |
Hi Karl,
I havent been following this thread so I may have missed something.
Firstly is it a new installation - ie: has the aircraft flown before and
everything was normal (temperature wise). Is it a Mono or a trigear (ie:
does it sit on its tail or is it level)
My guess is you definitely have an airlock somewhere. Have you removed
the air pocket from the port radiator return hose (to the water pump)?
To do this you need to ease the hose off the radiator connection and
release all the trapped air in the hose. It can be done by jamming a
large screwdriver in the top of the hose where it connects the rad -
loosen the jubilee clip first and slide it out of the way. Presumably
none of the hoses are kinked or crushed (by the engine frame)
If you have a big airlock the cooling system may be working but only
intermittently - the angle of climb/ descent of the aircraft may affect
this. Unless the airlock is cleared the coolant flow will always be
restricted, but be adequate in the cruise when the engine is running
cooler.
The only other possibility (unlikely) is a blockage or a problem with
the water pump.
If you remove the radiator cap (when the engine is cold) it should be
possible to see the coolant pumping round while the engine is idling but
this wont tell you if there is sufficient flow (just that there isnt a
major blockage). MAKE SURE YOU TAKE THE NECESSARY SAFETY PRECAUTIONS
REGARDING THE MOVING PROPELLER - I know its stating the obvious but I
dont want your death on my hands.
It might be worth draining and refilling the cooling system and
backflushing everything with a high pressure hose.
Just my ten cents worth.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS.
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Heindl
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 1:29 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:
I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the
coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the
oil temperature.
After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F)
hotter than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always
normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant
temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate.
I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ?
Cheers,
Karl
<html><div></div>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Thanks for the reactions, i stand corrected. While i have no doubt any more about
an elaborate AoA system, i keep wondering about value the Dynon AoA part of
the flight instruments. I should add that i like my D 180 very much. The installation
procedure of the AoA part of the Dynon system calls for a position where:
"the airflow over the probe is relatively undisturbed by the aircraft " and
a series of stalls in different setups. Side slipping on a base to final turn
is not one of them. Could be added though :-) Now, to refine the question from
a flight safety point of view: Is it safer to rely on this AoA indication
and alarm or avoid being on the edge of the envelope by a good margin in the first
place?
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 5
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testing
Message 6
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testing again
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
"Now, to refine the question from a flight safety point of view: Is it safer
to rely on this AoA indication and alarm or avoid being on the edge of the
envelope by a good margin in the first place? "
Jos,
As Ron pointed out, the AOA is the only thing that will tell you how far you
are from the edge of the envelope. Under normal weight, density altitude, no
bank, 1g, you have a good idea of this from airspeed, but as Ron pointed out
with high weight, low density altitude, high bank angle and maybe leveling
out from a steep descent (so high g), the critical angle of attack (ie
incipient stall) will be reached at a very much higher airspeed. AOA allows
you to track how close you are to the stall under all these conditions, so
that you can maintain a good margin of safety. A stall warner only tells you
when you get too close to the stall. And in theory at least AOA can provide
other information about airspeed for best L/D ratio (best glide angle) under
these varying conditions as well.
Keith Hickling,
New Zealand.
Message 8
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Hi Alasdair.
A very good idea BUT at this moment my aircraft is in Germany awaiting a
replacement prop after I "dinged" coming back from Berlin so I'm out of it
for a while !
Having said that if anyone has a spare seat ? things could change.
This is one trip I really want to do some time soon.
Regards
Tim
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A B Milne
Sent: 27 July 2008 07:50
Subject: Europa-List: Maxi DOTH
Anyone fancy a Scotch expedition? The plan is to base in Perth (EGPT) in
the week Sunday 3rd August returning via the LAA Regional in Sherburn on 9th
August. All the mainland airfields in Scotland and all those in the Western
Isles are within 150Nm of Perth and Perth is East of the scottish weather
line so daily expeditions for lunch and interest is envisaged. Perth
airfield has a Skylodge on the airfield and the city has plenty of hotels
and restaurants to cope with the evenings.
Could any who fancy such a trip to the romantic and remote such as Teiree
and Barra let me know.
Hoping,
Alasdair Milne.
4:18 PM
Message 9
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| Subject: | Debris in filter and cooling problems |
My Rotax 912 in a Classic Mono has done about 360 hours. I had never
removed the magnetic plug until I saw Conrad Beale's article in Light
Aviation which showed a picture of where the plug was. I had previously
asked Skydrive but I don't think the chap I spoke to actually knew as I
still couldn't find it after speaking to him. The plug looked like a
hedgehog so I removed the swarf with a tissue and later washed out the
tissue in petrol with a small magnet in the bowl, which collected all
the swarf again. I sent this with my latest filter to ConAir and Conrad
advised that he should come and look at my engine. He removed the
gearbox and found significant pitting in the driven gear and advised
replacing the gear pair which he did. He said there was nothing worth
speaking of in the filter, but it had only done about 20 hours in the
engine. He thought the wear might be due to using Castrol GTX, which
used to be recommended, and I have now changed to Shell. The rest of
the engine was fine and it was clear that the source of the debris was
the gearbox.
It was very interesting to see Conrad working on the engine. He was
very quick and exceedingly careful and in particular he took enormous
trouble to ensure that all air was removed from the cooling system, and
then after running the engine did a further air bleed. This made me
wonder whether those who are having cooling problems may have got air in
their cooling system. A slight leak on the suction side of the water
pump could cause air to accumulate in the high spot above the starboard
radiator and prevent proper circulation. Although mine doesn't have
one, some people drilled a small hole in the radiator outlet pipe so
that they could bleed out the air by sliding the hose to the end of the
pipe, but not off, and subsequently the hole was covered by the hose and
the hose clip. Incidentally Conrad's hourly charges are very
reasonable, but at 81p a mile (which includes his own time when
travelling) travelling can add up and in my case, with two visits being
necessary, it was the largest item on the bill.
Frank Mycroft
Message 10
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| Subject: | Coolant overheating |
Hi Carl=2C
Thank you for your input=2C I am hoping it is something simple like an airl
ock.
I have a trigear/912S with close to 300 hours=2C with no previous problems
of this nature. For my last annual I decided
to change coolant (glycol 50/50) and oil=2C and all hoses and fuel lines. I
had also made changes to improve airflow over
the engine=2C at the same time reducing drag. I have since then removed tho
se changes again=2C but this has made no difference.
On the contrary=2C the temperature seems to be even higher.
You seem to have had firsthand experience with that problem ? I will try to
follow your guidelines=2C hoping for success.
I just don't want to spill a lot of coolant all over the engine. One idea i
s to remove the coolant - I have a pump and I can
feed the extraction hose right down to the radiator - and then refilling th
e radiator first=2C and then the rest.
I will keep all informed.
Best regards=2C Karl
<html><div></div>
From: carl@flyers.freeserve.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Re:
Europa-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sun=2C 27 Jul 2008 09:05:37 +0100
Hi Karl=2C
I havent been following this thread so I may have missed something.
Firstly is it a new installation - ie: has the aircraft flown before and ev
erything was normal (temperature wise). Is it a Mono or a trigear (ie: does
it sit on its tail or is it level)
My guess is you definitely have an airlock somewhere. Have you removed the
air pocket from the port radiator return hose (to the water pump)? To do th
is you need to ease the hose off the radiator connection and release all th
e trapped air in the hose. It can be done by jamming a large screwdriver in
the top of the hose where it connects the rad - loosen the jubilee clip fi
rst and slide it out of the way. Presumably none of the hoses are kinked or
crushed (by the engine frame)
If you have a big airlock the cooling system may be working but only interm
ittently - the angle of climb/ descent of the aircraft may affect this. Unl
ess the airlock is cleared the coolant flow will always be restricted=2C bu
t be adequate in the cruise when the engine is running cooler.
The only other possibility (unlikely) is a blockage or a problem with the w
ater pump.
If you remove the radiator cap (when the engine is cold) it should be possi
ble to see the coolant pumping round while the engine is idling but this wo
nt tell you if there is sufficient flow (just that there isnt a major block
age). MAKE SURE YOU TAKE THE NECESSARY SAFETY PRECAUTIONS REGARDING THE MOV
ING PROPELLER - I know its stating the obvious but I dont want your death o
n my hands.
It might be worth draining and refilling the cooling system and backflushin
g everything with a high pressure hose.
Just my ten cents worth.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS.
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Heindl
Sent: Saturday=2C July 26=2C 2008 1:29 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating
I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:I had replaced all glyco
l coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the gr
ound and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature.After warming up
the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The o
il and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am
I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is
accurate.I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this myste
ry ? Cheers=2C Karl <html><div></div>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Personal Microbalancer. |
Hi Mike,
I can take care of that for you. Can you give me the details of the
product, preferably a WEB page so I can see if I can track it down for
you.
Paul
On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 3:37 AM, Mike Parkin
<mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com> wrote:
> I am interested in a Personal Microbalancer. Would anyone from our Europa
> Fraternity visiting Oshkosh next week be prepared to obtain one for me and
> post on. Please contact me off list.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Mike
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Pneumatic Installation |
I can honestly say that I have never missed not having an AOA. It might be
useful in a high performance aircraft with tricky flight characteristics or
a jetfighter with HUD. In the Europa it is a gimmick. When I am close to t
he ground I don't want to be distracted by checking a bunch of instruments.
I go much by the control feel and the sound of the airplane. The Europa au
dible stall warner works very nicely=2C and gives a little beep before touc
hdown.
In a turn the wings have different angles of attack=2C so how is an AOA ind
icator going to help you=2C when the probe happens to be on the low wing ?
In my glider wings I have installed a stall warner in each wing=2C with dif
ferent piezo sounders. When soaring=2C it is quite common to do tight turns
at low speeds.
Just my opinion.
Karl
<html><div></div>> Date: Sun=2C 27 Jul 2008 21:03:40 +1200> From: ke
ithhickling@clear.net.nz> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation>
Hickling <keithhickling@clear.net.nz>> > "Now=2C to refine the question fro
m a flight safety point of view: Is it safer > to rely on this AoA indicati
on and alarm or avoid being on the edge of the > envelope by a good margin
in the first place? "> > Jos=2C> As Ron pointed out=2C the AOA is the only
thing that will tell you how far you > are from the edge of the envelope. U
nder normal weight=2C density altitude=2C no > bank=2C 1g=2C you have a goo
d idea of this from airspeed=2C but as Ron pointed out > with high weight
=2C low density altitude=2C high bank angle and maybe leveling > out from a
steep descent (so high g)=2C the critical angle of attack (ie > incipient
stall) will be reached at a very much higher airspeed. AOA allows > you to
track how close you are to the stall under all these conditions=2C so > tha
t you can maintain a good margin of safety. A stall warner only tells you >
when you get too close to the stall. And in theory at least AOA can provid
e > other information about airspeed for best L/D ratio (best glide angle)
under > these varying conditions as well.> > Keith Hickling=2C> New Zealand
-========================
=========> > >
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Karl,
Spoken like a true glider pilot ! Feel the airplane, it is always
talking to you.
Paul
>On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com> wrote:
>I go much by the control feel and the sound of the airplane.
>
> Karl
>
Message 14
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Alasdair
I've been looking for an excuse to make a sentimental journey to
Perth - it was where I learned to fly 37 years ago. Possibly not this
time, though, as Val is poorly and it would cost more brownie points
than I have in credit just now...
Hope the new plane is well (and you too, of course)
Willie
On 27 Jul 2008, at 07:49, A B Milne wrote:
> Anyone fancy a Scotch expedition? The plan is to base in Perth
> (EGPT) in the week Sunday 3rd August returning via the LAA Regional
> in Sherburn on 9th August. All the mainland airfields in Scotland
> and all those in the Western Isles are within 150Nm of Perth and
> Perth is East of the scottish weather line so daily expeditions for
> lunch and interest is envisaged. Perth airfield has a Skylodge on
> the airfield and the city has plenty of hotels and restaurants to
> cope with the evenings.
>
> Could any who fancy such a trip to the romantic and remote such as
> Teiree and Barra let me know.
>
> Hoping,
>
> Alasdair Milne.
>
>
Message 15
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Hi! Alistair
I would have been delighted but I'm committed to the Swiss Rally on the
15th followed immediately by the Rotax Fly In and there is some
uncertainty over my wife's health so you must leave me looking green
with envy. Otherwise I'd have been delighted. May get to Sherburn on
the 9th though.
Regards
Bob H (G-PTAG)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A B Milne
Sent: 27 July 2008 07:50
Subject: Europa-List: Maxi DOTH
Anyone fancy a Scotch expedition? The plan is to base in Perth (EGPT)
in the week Sunday 3rd August returning via the LAA Regional in Sherburn
on 9th August. All the mainland airfields in Scotland and all those in
the Western Isles are within 150Nm of Perth and Perth is East of the
scottish weather line so daily expeditions for lunch and interest is
envisaged. Perth airfield has a Skylodge on the airfield and the city
has plenty of hotels and restaurants to cope with the evenings.
Could any who fancy such a trip to the romantic and remote such as
Teiree and Barra let me know.
Hoping,
Alasdair Milne.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Jos, imho you never know what the margin is with your ASI, you always
know with AoA.
Landing too fast will eventually cause a problem, you could end up
busting your prop a thousand miles from home =-O
So AoA is safer, Mike?
Graham
josok wrote:
> Now, to refine the question from a flight safety point of view: Is it safer
to rely on this AoA indication and alarm or avoid being on the edge of the envelope
by a good margin in the first place?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Pneumatic Installation |
Graham,
I am not sure what is the safer route. I have never flown a low wing
loading ac with an angle of attack system, so I cannot say how useful it
would be. Certainly in many jets it is the major source for performance
indication. Having said that, with experience, for performance manoeuvring
I found that buffet was as good an indication as looking at the AoA
indicator/HUD. I guess it is 'what ever floats your particular boat'.
Personally with the Monowheel Europa, I tend to subscribe to Carl's view on
the problem. I have the Factory stall warner which I have found to be
spot-on. It gives an aural warning of impending stall in both
configurations. As an added bonus it gives a good indication of an
approaching accelerated stall.
Approach speed and approach path are important, but I find that having
arrived at the flare in good shape it becomes a case of keeping one's head
out of the cockpit and landing the monowheel very much by feel and visual
reference. Now if the stall warner sounds just before the tailwheel makes
contact slightly before the mainwheel - then it truly is a red letter day.
Regards,
Mike.
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Singleton
Sent: 27 July 2008 18:56
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
<grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Jos, imho you never know what the margin is with your ASI, you always
know with AoA.
Landing too fast will eventually cause a problem, you could end up
busting your prop a thousand miles from home =-O
So AoA is safer, Mike?
Graham
josok wrote:
> Now, to refine the question from a flight safety point of view: Is it
safer to rely on this AoA indication and alarm or avoid being on the edge of
the envelope by a good margin in the first place?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Hi Graham,
You are probably right that a good AoA is better then ASI. However, i fail to see
how a very clever algorithm, one bent pitot, one pitot and one static can form
a reliable AoA. Side slipping for one thing will change the static pressure
dramatically. On the other hand the Europa standard stall warner works great.
Mine happened to be adjusted 5 knots before stall. I land with the horn coming
on as confirmation that everything is fine. While i am fond of gadgets, i am
afraid that too much help from them will be a hinder. Can't imagine that i take
my eyes inside the plane to look at an AoA really. Instead of that i would
like to develop my feeling for the plane, like Karl and Paul are suggesting.
It's getting better all the time :-)
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Karl,
I don't disagree with what you say at all. I, like I suspect Ron,
Graham and Mike, was just discussing the theoretical aspacts.
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Heindl
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 2:16 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
I can honestly say that I have never missed not having an AOA. It
might be useful in a high performance aircraft with tricky flight
characteristics or a jetfighter with HUD. In the Europa it is a gimmick.
When I am close to the ground I don't want to be distracted by checking
a bunch of instruments. I go much by the control feel and the sound of
the airplane. The Europa audible stall warner works very nicely, and
gives a little beep before touchdown.
In a turn the wings have different angles of attack, so how is an AOA
indicator going to help you, when the probe happens to be on the low
wing ?
In my glider wings I have installed a stall warner in each wing, with
different piezo sounders. When soaring, it is quite common to do tight
turns at low speeds.
Just my opinion.
Karl
<html><div></div>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Mike
A few random thoughts
The stall warner is in fact a single point AoA meter. It tells you that
the wing is about to stall .
Near the ground attitude is important so you have to look out.
An audio AoA similar to the variometers in gliders would be nice. Just
like the stall warner but callibrated to give varying tone around the
critical AoA
My main point about AoA is it warns you when you get near stall, the ASI
tells you that you are at stall speed 20 seconds too late.
Graham
Mike Parkin wrote:
>
> Graham,
>
> I am not sure what is the safer route. I have never flown a low wing
> loading ac with an angle of attack system, so I cannot say how useful it
> would be. Certainly in many jets it is the major source for performance
> indication. Having said that, with experience, for performance manoeuvring
> I found that buffet was as good an indication as looking at the AoA
> indicator/HUD. I guess it is 'what ever floats your particular boat'.
>
> Personally with the Monowheel Europa, I tend to subscribe to Carl's view on
> the problem. I have the Factory stall warner which I have found to be
> spot-on. It gives an aural warning of impending stall in both
> configurations. As an added bonus it gives a good indication of an
> approaching accelerated stall.
>
> Approach speed and approach path are important, but I find that having
> arrived at the flare in good shape it becomes a case of keeping one's head
> out of the cockpit and landing the monowheel very much by feel and visual
> reference. Now if the stall warner sounds just before the tailwheel makes
> contact slightly before the mainwheel - then it truly is a red letter day.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike.
>
> Do not archive.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
> Singleton
> Sent: 27 July 2008 18:56
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
>
> <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
>
> Jos, imho you never know what the margin is with your ASI, you always
> know with AoA.
> Landing too fast will eventually cause a problem, you could end up
> busting your prop a thousand miles from home =-O
> So AoA is safer, Mike?
> Graham
>
> josok wrote:
>
>> Now, to refine the question from a flight safety point of view: Is it
>>
> safer to rely on this AoA indication and alarm or avoid being on the edge of
> the envelope by a good margin in the first place?
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jos Okhuijsen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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