---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/27/08: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:00 AM - Maxi DOTH (A B Milne) 2. 12:41 AM - Personal Microbalancer. (Mike Parkin) 3. 01:09 AM - Re: Coolant overheating (Carl Pattinson) 4. 01:09 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (josok) 5. 01:44 AM - testing (Remi Guerner) 6. 01:48 AM - testing (Remi Guerner) 7. 02:07 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Keith Hickling) 8. 03:49 AM - Re: Maxi DOTH (Tim Houlihan) 9. 05:39 AM - Debris in filter and cooling problems (Frank Mycroft) 10. 06:55 AM - Re: Coolant overheating (Karl Heindl) 11. 07:15 AM - Re: Personal Microbalancer. (Paul McAllister) 12. 07:19 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Karl Heindl) 13. 07:46 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Paul McAllister) 14. 08:35 AM - Re: Maxi DOTH (William Harrison) 15. 08:45 AM - Re: Maxi DOTH (Robert C Harrison) 16. 10:58 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Graham Singleton) 17. 01:44 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Mike Parkin) 18. 02:07 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (josok) 19. 03:46 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Keith Hickling) 20. 04:04 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Graham Singleton) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:47 AM PST US From: "A B Milne" Subject: Europa-List: Maxi DOTH Anyone fancy a Scotch expedition? The plan is to base in Perth (EGPT) in the week Sunday 3rd August returning via the LAA Regional in Sherburn on 9th August. All the mainland airfields in Scotland and all those in the Western Isles are within 150Nm of Perth and Perth is East of the scottish weather line so daily expeditions for lunch and interest is envisaged. Perth airfield has a Skylodge on the airfield and the city has plenty of hotels and restaurants to cope with the evenings. Could any who fancy such a trip to the romantic and remote such as Teiree and Barra let me know. Hoping, Alasdair Milne. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:29 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Europa-List: Personal Microbalancer. I am interested in a Personal Microbalancer. Would anyone from our Europa Fraternity visiting Oshkosh next week be prepared to obtain one for me and post on. Please contact me off list. Regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:00 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Hi Karl, I havent been following this thread so I may have missed something. Firstly is it a new installation - ie: has the aircraft flown before and everything was normal (temperature wise). Is it a Mono or a trigear (ie: does it sit on its tail or is it level) My guess is you definitely have an airlock somewhere. Have you removed the air pocket from the port radiator return hose (to the water pump)? To do this you need to ease the hose off the radiator connection and release all the trapped air in the hose. It can be done by jamming a large screwdriver in the top of the hose where it connects the rad - loosen the jubilee clip first and slide it out of the way. Presumably none of the hoses are kinked or crushed (by the engine frame) If you have a big airlock the cooling system may be working but only intermittently - the angle of climb/ descent of the aircraft may affect this. Unless the airlock is cleared the coolant flow will always be restricted, but be adequate in the cruise when the engine is running cooler. The only other possibility (unlikely) is a blockage or a problem with the water pump. If you remove the radiator cap (when the engine is cold) it should be possible to see the coolant pumping round while the engine is idling but this wont tell you if there is sufficient flow (just that there isnt a major blockage). MAKE SURE YOU TAKE THE NECESSARY SAFETY PRECAUTIONS REGARDING THE MOVING PROPELLER - I know its stating the obvious but I dont want your death on my hands. It might be worth draining and refilling the cooling system and backflushing everything with a high pressure hose. Just my ten cents worth. Carl Pattinson G-LABS. ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Heindl To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 1:29 PM Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I have been unable to solve my overheating problem: I had replaced all glycol coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the ground and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature. After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The oil and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate. I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this mystery ? Cheers, Karl
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation From: "josok" Thanks for the reactions, i stand corrected. While i have no doubt any more about an elaborate AoA system, i keep wondering about value the Dynon AoA part of the flight instruments. I should add that i like my D 180 very much. The installation procedure of the AoA part of the Dynon system calls for a position where: "the airflow over the probe is relatively undisturbed by the aircraft " and a series of stalls in different setups. Side slipping on a base to final turn is not one of them. Could be added though :-) Now, to refine the question from a flight safety point of view: Is it safer to rely on this AoA indication and alarm or avoid being on the edge of the envelope by a good margin in the first place? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:48 AM PST US From: "Remi Guerner" Subject: Europa-List: testing testing ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:47 AM PST US From: Remi Guerner Subject: Europa-List: testing testing again ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:46 AM PST US From: Keith Hickling Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation "Now, to refine the question from a flight safety point of view: Is it safer to rely on this AoA indication and alarm or avoid being on the edge of the envelope by a good margin in the first place? " Jos, As Ron pointed out, the AOA is the only thing that will tell you how far you are from the edge of the envelope. Under normal weight, density altitude, no bank, 1g, you have a good idea of this from airspeed, but as Ron pointed out with high weight, low density altitude, high bank angle and maybe leveling out from a steep descent (so high g), the critical angle of attack (ie incipient stall) will be reached at a very much higher airspeed. AOA allows you to track how close you are to the stall under all these conditions, so that you can maintain a good margin of safety. A stall warner only tells you when you get too close to the stall. And in theory at least AOA can provide other information about airspeed for best L/D ratio (best glide angle) under these varying conditions as well. Keith Hickling, New Zealand. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:49:12 AM PST US From: "Tim Houlihan" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Maxi DOTH Hi Alasdair. A very good idea BUT at this moment my aircraft is in Germany awaiting a replacement prop after I "dinged" coming back from Berlin so I'm out of it for a while ! Having said that if anyone has a spare seat ? things could change. This is one trip I really want to do some time soon. Regards Tim _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A B Milne Sent: 27 July 2008 07:50 Subject: Europa-List: Maxi DOTH Anyone fancy a Scotch expedition? The plan is to base in Perth (EGPT) in the week Sunday 3rd August returning via the LAA Regional in Sherburn on 9th August. All the mainland airfields in Scotland and all those in the Western Isles are within 150Nm of Perth and Perth is East of the scottish weather line so daily expeditions for lunch and interest is envisaged. Perth airfield has a Skylodge on the airfield and the city has plenty of hotels and restaurants to cope with the evenings. Could any who fancy such a trip to the romantic and remote such as Teiree and Barra let me know. Hoping, Alasdair Milne. 4:18 PM ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:31 AM PST US From: "Frank Mycroft" Subject: Europa-List: Debris in filter and cooling problems My Rotax 912 in a Classic Mono has done about 360 hours. I had never removed the magnetic plug until I saw Conrad Beale's article in Light Aviation which showed a picture of where the plug was. I had previously asked Skydrive but I don't think the chap I spoke to actually knew as I still couldn't find it after speaking to him. The plug looked like a hedgehog so I removed the swarf with a tissue and later washed out the tissue in petrol with a small magnet in the bowl, which collected all the swarf again. I sent this with my latest filter to ConAir and Conrad advised that he should come and look at my engine. He removed the gearbox and found significant pitting in the driven gear and advised replacing the gear pair which he did. He said there was nothing worth speaking of in the filter, but it had only done about 20 hours in the engine. He thought the wear might be due to using Castrol GTX, which used to be recommended, and I have now changed to Shell. The rest of the engine was fine and it was clear that the source of the debris was the gearbox. It was very interesting to see Conrad working on the engine. He was very quick and exceedingly careful and in particular he took enormous trouble to ensure that all air was removed from the cooling system, and then after running the engine did a further air bleed. This made me wonder whether those who are having cooling problems may have got air in their cooling system. A slight leak on the suction side of the water pump could cause air to accumulate in the high spot above the starboard radiator and prevent proper circulation. Although mine doesn't have one, some people drilled a small hole in the radiator outlet pipe so that they could bleed out the air by sliding the hose to the end of the pipe, but not off, and subsequently the hole was covered by the hose and the hose clip. Incidentally Conrad's hourly charges are very reasonable, but at 81p a mile (which includes his own time when travelling) travelling can add up and in my case, with two visits being necessary, it was the largest item on the bill. Frank Mycroft ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:16 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Coolant overheating Hi Carl=2C Thank you for your input=2C I am hoping it is something simple like an airl ock. I have a trigear/912S with close to 300 hours=2C with no previous problems of this nature. For my last annual I decided to change coolant (glycol 50/50) and oil=2C and all hoses and fuel lines. I had also made changes to improve airflow over the engine=2C at the same time reducing drag. I have since then removed tho se changes again=2C but this has made no difference. On the contrary=2C the temperature seems to be even higher. You seem to have had firsthand experience with that problem ? I will try to follow your guidelines=2C hoping for success. I just don't want to spill a lot of coolant all over the engine. One idea i s to remove the coolant - I have a pump and I can feed the extraction hose right down to the radiator - and then refilling th e radiator first=2C and then the rest. I will keep all informed. Best regards=2C Karl
From: carl@flyers.freeserve.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Europa-List: Coolant overheatingDate: Sun=2C 27 Jul 2008 09:05:37 +0100 Hi Karl=2C I havent been following this thread so I may have missed something. Firstly is it a new installation - ie: has the aircraft flown before and ev erything was normal (temperature wise). Is it a Mono or a trigear (ie: does it sit on its tail or is it level) My guess is you definitely have an airlock somewhere. Have you removed the air pocket from the port radiator return hose (to the water pump)? To do th is you need to ease the hose off the radiator connection and release all th e trapped air in the hose. It can be done by jamming a large screwdriver in the top of the hose where it connects the rad - loosen the jubilee clip fi rst and slide it out of the way. Presumably none of the hoses are kinked or crushed (by the engine frame) If you have a big airlock the cooling system may be working but only interm ittently - the angle of climb/ descent of the aircraft may affect this. Unl ess the airlock is cleared the coolant flow will always be restricted=2C bu t be adequate in the cruise when the engine is running cooler. The only other possibility (unlikely) is a blockage or a problem with the w ater pump. If you remove the radiator cap (when the engine is cold) it should be possi ble to see the coolant pumping round while the engine is idling but this wo nt tell you if there is sufficient flow (just that there isnt a major block age). MAKE SURE YOU TAKE THE NECESSARY SAFETY PRECAUTIONS REGARDING THE MOV ING PROPELLER - I know its stating the obvious but I dont want your death o n my hands. It might be worth draining and refilling the cooling system and backflushin g everything with a high pressure hose. Just my ten cents worth. Carl Pattinson G-LABS. ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Heindl Sent: Saturday=2C July 26=2C 2008 1:29 PM Subject: Europa-List: Coolant overheating I have been unable to solve my overheating problem:I had replaced all glyco l coolant and all hoses. Ever since then the coolant temperatures on the gr ound and in the climb are way ahead of the oil temperature.After warming up the engine the coolant is typically 25 C (45 F) hotter than the oil. The o il and cylinder head temperatures are always normal. Only in the cruise am I getting normal readings. The coolant temp. probe is in the coolant and is accurate.I have run out of ideas. Has anyone got any clue about this myste ry ? Cheers=2C Karl
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:13 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Personal Microbalancer. Hi Mike, I can take care of that for you. Can you give me the details of the product, preferably a WEB page so I can see if I can track it down for you. Paul On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 3:37 AM, Mike Parkin wrote: > I am interested in a Personal Microbalancer. Would anyone from our Europa > Fraternity visiting Oshkosh next week be prepared to obtain one for me and > post on. Please contact me off list. > > > Regards, > > > Mike > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:07 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation I can honestly say that I have never missed not having an AOA. It might be useful in a high performance aircraft with tricky flight characteristics or a jetfighter with HUD. In the Europa it is a gimmick. When I am close to t he ground I don't want to be distracted by checking a bunch of instruments. I go much by the control feel and the sound of the airplane. The Europa au dible stall warner works very nicely=2C and gives a little beep before touc hdown. In a turn the wings have different angles of attack=2C so how is an AOA ind icator going to help you=2C when the probe happens to be on the low wing ? In my glider wings I have installed a stall warner in each wing=2C with dif ferent piezo sounders. When soaring=2C it is quite common to do tight turns at low speeds. Just my opinion. Karl
> Date: Sun=2C 27 Jul 2008 21:03:40 +1200> From: ke ithhickling@clear.net.nz> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation> Hickling > > "Now=2C to refine the question fro m a flight safety point of view: Is it safer > to rely on this AoA indicati on and alarm or avoid being on the edge of the > envelope by a good margin in the first place? "> > Jos=2C> As Ron pointed out=2C the AOA is the only thing that will tell you how far you > are from the edge of the envelope. U nder normal weight=2C density altitude=2C no > bank=2C 1g=2C you have a goo d idea of this from airspeed=2C but as Ron pointed out > with high weight =2C low density altitude=2C high bank angle and maybe leveling > out from a steep descent (so high g)=2C the critical angle of attack (ie > incipient stall) will be reached at a very much higher airspeed. AOA allows > you to track how close you are to the stall under all these conditions=2C so > tha t you can maintain a good margin of safety. A stall warner only tells you > when you get too close to the stall. And in theory at least AOA can provid e > other information about airspeed for best L/D ratio (best glide angle) under > these varying conditions as well.> > Keith Hickling=2C> New Zealand -======================== =========> > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:59 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation Karl, Spoken like a true glider pilot ! Feel the airplane, it is always talking to you. Paul >On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:16 AM, Karl Heindl wrote: >I go much by the control feel and the sound of the airplane. > > Karl > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:47 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: Maxi DOTH Alasdair I've been looking for an excuse to make a sentimental journey to Perth - it was where I learned to fly 37 years ago. Possibly not this time, though, as Val is poorly and it would cost more brownie points than I have in credit just now... Hope the new plane is well (and you too, of course) Willie On 27 Jul 2008, at 07:49, A B Milne wrote: > Anyone fancy a Scotch expedition? The plan is to base in Perth > (EGPT) in the week Sunday 3rd August returning via the LAA Regional > in Sherburn on 9th August. All the mainland airfields in Scotland > and all those in the Western Isles are within 150Nm of Perth and > Perth is East of the scottish weather line so daily expeditions for > lunch and interest is envisaged. Perth airfield has a Skylodge on > the airfield and the city has plenty of hotels and restaurants to > cope with the evenings. > > Could any who fancy such a trip to the romantic and remote such as > Teiree and Barra let me know. > > Hoping, > > Alasdair Milne. > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:37 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Maxi DOTH Hi! Alistair I would have been delighted but I'm committed to the Swiss Rally on the 15th followed immediately by the Rotax Fly In and there is some uncertainty over my wife's health so you must leave me looking green with envy. Otherwise I'd have been delighted. May get to Sherburn on the 9th though. Regards Bob H (G-PTAG) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A B Milne Sent: 27 July 2008 07:50 Subject: Europa-List: Maxi DOTH Anyone fancy a Scotch expedition? The plan is to base in Perth (EGPT) in the week Sunday 3rd August returning via the LAA Regional in Sherburn on 9th August. All the mainland airfields in Scotland and all those in the Western Isles are within 150Nm of Perth and Perth is East of the scottish weather line so daily expeditions for lunch and interest is envisaged. Perth airfield has a Skylodge on the airfield and the city has plenty of hotels and restaurants to cope with the evenings. Could any who fancy such a trip to the romantic and remote such as Teiree and Barra let me know. Hoping, Alasdair Milne. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:22 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation Jos, imho you never know what the margin is with your ASI, you always know with AoA. Landing too fast will eventually cause a problem, you could end up busting your prop a thousand miles from home =-O So AoA is safer, Mike? Graham josok wrote: > Now, to refine the question from a flight safety point of view: Is it safer to rely on this AoA indication and alarm or avoid being on the edge of the envelope by a good margin in the first place? > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:04 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation Graham, I am not sure what is the safer route. I have never flown a low wing loading ac with an angle of attack system, so I cannot say how useful it would be. Certainly in many jets it is the major source for performance indication. Having said that, with experience, for performance manoeuvring I found that buffet was as good an indication as looking at the AoA indicator/HUD. I guess it is 'what ever floats your particular boat'. Personally with the Monowheel Europa, I tend to subscribe to Carl's view on the problem. I have the Factory stall warner which I have found to be spot-on. It gives an aural warning of impending stall in both configurations. As an added bonus it gives a good indication of an approaching accelerated stall. Approach speed and approach path are important, but I find that having arrived at the flare in good shape it becomes a case of keeping one's head out of the cockpit and landing the monowheel very much by feel and visual reference. Now if the stall warner sounds just before the tailwheel makes contact slightly before the mainwheel - then it truly is a red letter day. Regards, Mike. Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: 27 July 2008 18:56 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation Jos, imho you never know what the margin is with your ASI, you always know with AoA. Landing too fast will eventually cause a problem, you could end up busting your prop a thousand miles from home =-O So AoA is safer, Mike? Graham josok wrote: > Now, to refine the question from a flight safety point of view: Is it safer to rely on this AoA indication and alarm or avoid being on the edge of the envelope by a good margin in the first place? > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation From: "josok" Hi Graham, You are probably right that a good AoA is better then ASI. However, i fail to see how a very clever algorithm, one bent pitot, one pitot and one static can form a reliable AoA. Side slipping for one thing will change the static pressure dramatically. On the other hand the Europa standard stall warner works great. Mine happened to be adjusted 5 knots before stall. I land with the horn coming on as confirmation that everything is fine. While i am fond of gadgets, i am afraid that too much help from them will be a hinder. Can't imagine that i take my eyes inside the plane to look at an AoA really. Instead of that i would like to develop my feeling for the plane, like Karl and Paul are suggesting. It's getting better all the time :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:18 PM PST US From: Keith Hickling Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation Karl, I don't disagree with what you say at all. I, like I suspect Ron, Graham and Mike, was just discussing the theoretical aspacts. ----- Original Message ----- From: Karl Heindl To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 2:16 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation I can honestly say that I have never missed not having an AOA. It might be useful in a high performance aircraft with tricky flight characteristics or a jetfighter with HUD. In the Europa it is a gimmick. When I am close to the ground I don't want to be distracted by checking a bunch of instruments. I go much by the control feel and the sound of the airplane. The Europa audible stall warner works very nicely, and gives a little beep before touchdown. In a turn the wings have different angles of attack, so how is an AOA indicator going to help you, when the probe happens to be on the low wing ? In my glider wings I have installed a stall warner in each wing, with different piezo sounders. When soaring, it is quite common to do tight turns at low speeds. Just my opinion. Karl
________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:47 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation Mike A few random thoughts The stall warner is in fact a single point AoA meter. It tells you that the wing is about to stall . Near the ground attitude is important so you have to look out. An audio AoA similar to the variometers in gliders would be nice. Just like the stall warner but callibrated to give varying tone around the critical AoA My main point about AoA is it warns you when you get near stall, the ASI tells you that you are at stall speed 20 seconds too late. Graham Mike Parkin wrote: > > Graham, > > I am not sure what is the safer route. I have never flown a low wing > loading ac with an angle of attack system, so I cannot say how useful it > would be. Certainly in many jets it is the major source for performance > indication. Having said that, with experience, for performance manoeuvring > I found that buffet was as good an indication as looking at the AoA > indicator/HUD. I guess it is 'what ever floats your particular boat'. > > Personally with the Monowheel Europa, I tend to subscribe to Carl's view on > the problem. I have the Factory stall warner which I have found to be > spot-on. It gives an aural warning of impending stall in both > configurations. As an added bonus it gives a good indication of an > approaching accelerated stall. > > Approach speed and approach path are important, but I find that having > arrived at the flare in good shape it becomes a case of keeping one's head > out of the cockpit and landing the monowheel very much by feel and visual > reference. Now if the stall warner sounds just before the tailwheel makes > contact slightly before the mainwheel - then it truly is a red letter day. > > Regards, > > Mike. > > Do not archive. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham > Singleton > Sent: 27 July 2008 18:56 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation > > > > Jos, imho you never know what the margin is with your ASI, you always > know with AoA. > Landing too fast will eventually cause a problem, you could end up > busting your prop a thousand miles from home =-O > So AoA is safer, Mike? > Graham > > josok wrote: > >> Now, to refine the question from a flight safety point of view: Is it >> > safer to rely on this AoA indication and alarm or avoid being on the edge of > the envelope by a good margin in the first place? > >> Regards, >> >> Jos Okhuijsen >> >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.