Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:19 AM - Pneumatic Installation (Fergus Kyle)
2. 10:21 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Graham Singleton)
3. 11:38 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Mike Parkin)
4. 11:44 AM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Mike Parkin)
5. 12:12 PM - Airventure Meet? (Robert Borger)
6. 01:22 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Graham Singleton)
7. 01:30 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Graham Singleton)
8. 01:44 PM - Airventure-engines (Fred Klein)
9. 01:48 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Rob Housman)
10. 02:03 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Graham Singleton)
11. 02:40 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Mike Parkin)
12. 02:59 PM - Bio Methanol at Morrisons (steve v)
13. 03:45 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation ()
14. 04:17 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation ()
15. 04:40 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (Graham Singleton)
16. 04:47 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation ()
17. 06:54 PM - Re: Pneumatic Installation (rparigoris)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Pneumatic Installation |
I have been following the subject correspondence and must say I
think the proponents of the Europa Stall Warner have a point. However, their
sole interest appears to be finding out when they are going to stall - and
nothing else. That is of course important and stall strips will give them
that.
However when you turn to the AoA system, you encounter much more.
Having experienced an AoA approach to a carrier, I can say that there is no
comparison. Yes, it gives you your approach to a stall [and much more timely
and accurate warning than a stall warner does]. It also tells you when to
accept an ideal soar figure for loss of engine, when to revert to and use a
long-range attitude, how to loop with the same AoA around the circle - and
what effect ground effect has on stall speed. AND all these automatically
adjust for change in weight or CG - no charts needed.
The argument about diverting attention during landing loses value
when the warning is visual and in the vision of the lander, i.e: on the
coaming where the landing strip is seen. Since a change of colour is all it
provides, little or no conscious diversion should occur. Of course the ideal
warning should be in a HUD, but that's a touch effete in a Europa.
Naturally, a needle down on the instrument panel is useless for the stall
problem.
Just my $0.02.
Ferg
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Fergus Kyle wrote:
>
> I have been following the subject correspondence and must say I
> think the proponents of the Europa Stall Warner have a point. Of course the
ideal
> warning should be in a HUD, but that's a touch effete in a Europa.
> Naturally, a needle down on the instrument panel is useless for the stall
> problem.
> Just my $0.02.
> Ferg
Fergus
worth rather more than 2 cents imho :-D
Message 3
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| Subject: | Pneumatic Installation |
Hi Ferg,
All totally true. But don't forget that most "heavy metal" with AOA also
had a stick/pedal shaker. Presumably to warn those pilots of an incipient
stall that they had missed on the indexers/HUD. As I recall for deck ops,
the F4 had an AOA audio as well as indexer lights and a head down indicator.
Certainly, ours did.
I never did think that the AOA was the panacea to all ills. IAS and power
setting were also very important. It is possible to make the AOA read
whatever you like, although the flight path might not be the one required.
Yes, the AOA will indicate the best glide angle but depending on the wind,
that might not give the best speed to fly. The ability to fly a constant
AOA loop is a little on the irrelevant side in an aircraft that is not
cleared for aerobatics.
I think that once in ground effect an AOA indication is a bit superfluous on
an aircraft that when landing is virtually stalled - monowheel anyway.
The choice of to buy or not to buy is an individual one, and I would be the
last to criticise anyone's decision to fit AOA. If it works for them, then
great. I would personally spend the money on a better radio or a Mode S
transponder.
My 2 pence worth.
Regards,
Mike
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Sent: 28 July 2008 16:15
Subject: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
I have been following the subject correspondence and must say I
think the proponents of the Europa Stall Warner have a point. However, their
sole interest appears to be finding out when they are going to stall - and
nothing else. That is of course important and stall strips will give them
that.
However when you turn to the AoA system, you encounter much more.
Having experienced an AoA approach to a carrier, I can say that there is no
comparison. Yes, it gives you your approach to a stall [and much more timely
and accurate warning than a stall warner does]. It also tells you when to
accept an ideal soar figure for loss of engine, when to revert to and use a
long-range attitude, how to loop with the same AoA around the circle - and
what effect ground effect has on stall speed. AND all these automatically
adjust for change in weight or CG - no charts needed.
The argument about diverting attention during landing loses value
when the warning is visual and in the vision of the lander, i.e: on the
coaming where the landing strip is seen. Since a change of colour is all it
provides, little or no conscious diversion should occur. Of course the ideal
warning should be in a HUD, but that's a touch effete in a Europa.
Naturally, a needle down on the instrument panel is useless for the stall
problem.
Just my $0.02.
Ferg
Message 4
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| Subject: | Pneumatic Installation |
Ferg,
PS. Stall strips can affect short field performance - a stall warner does
not.
Regards,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Sent: 28 July 2008 16:15
Subject: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
I have been following the subject correspondence and must say I
think the proponents of the Europa Stall Warner have a point. However, their
sole interest appears to be finding out when they are going to stall - and
nothing else. That is of course important and stall strips will give them
that.
However when you turn to the AoA system, you encounter much more.
Having experienced an AoA approach to a carrier, I can say that there is no
comparison. Yes, it gives you your approach to a stall [and much more timely
and accurate warning than a stall warner does]. It also tells you when to
accept an ideal soar figure for loss of engine, when to revert to and use a
long-range attitude, how to loop with the same AoA around the circle - and
what effect ground effect has on stall speed. AND all these automatically
adjust for change in weight or CG - no charts needed.
The argument about diverting attention during landing loses value
when the warning is visual and in the vision of the lander, i.e: on the
coaming where the landing strip is seen. Since a change of colour is all it
provides, little or no conscious diversion should occur. Of course the ideal
warning should be in a HUD, but that's a touch effete in a Europa.
Naturally, a needle down on the instrument panel is useless for the stall
problem.
Just my $0.02.
Ferg
Message 5
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| Subject: | Airventure Meet? |
Europa meeting at Airventure?
Sent from my iPhone
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Mike
absolutely right, anywhere between 15 ft altitude and zero, the visual
cues are all you need. However it's the earlier stages from base leg to
late finals where AoA is more useful and ASI is less useful, (imho, I
don't have your or Fergs' experience, or Ivan's come to that) I speak as
a not very current, not very intuitive pilot but with some painful
experience. It would be nice if I can save someone from making my
mistakes again.
Graham
Mike Parkin wrote:
> I think that once in ground effect an AOA indication is a bit superfluous on
> an aircraft that when landing is virtually stalled - monowheel anyway.
> The choice of to buy or not to buy is an individual one, and I would be the
> last to criticise anyone's decision to fit AOA. If it works for them, then
> great. I would personally spend the money on a better radio or a Mode S
> transponder.
> My 2 pence worth.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
That's why I took em off. Wish I hadn't now :-(
Graham
incidentally that's another story, very careful attention to the leading
edge profile (digital airfoil section as Don designed) make an enormous
difference to the character of the stall. 3 times and 3 airplanes now
many hours spent on the LE have given very good low speed handling. It's
the first 3 inches of the leading edge that make all the difference.
Mike Parkin wrote:
>
> Ferg,
>
> PS. Stall strips can affect short field performance - a stall warner does
> not.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike
Message 8
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| Subject: | Airventure-engines |
I'm soooooo envious of you guys attending!...was hoping to be there
myself, but some obligations intervened.
If anyone attending is looking at alternatives to the Rotax, track down
the Ultra Power 260i, the Rotamax, and the Gemini100/125 by Powerplant
Development, Ltd. All three manufacturers have said they will be there.
Reports would be much appreciated on their development status,
schedules, etc., especially in view of he overall economic climate and
energy concerns.
Thanks in advance,
Fred
A194
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Pneumatic Installation |
Only one of the following can reliably keep you from making a smoking hole
in the ground if you make the wrong small mistake at the wrong altitude:
Mode S transponder
Better radio
Stall warning device
AOA
Guess which one.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 11:34 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
<mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com>
Hi Ferg,
All totally true. But don't forget that most "heavy metal" with AOA also
had a stick/pedal shaker. Presumably to warn those pilots of an incipient
stall that they had missed on the indexers/HUD. As I recall for deck ops,
the F4 had an AOA audio as well as indexer lights and a head down indicator.
Certainly, ours did.
I never did think that the AOA was the panacea to all ills. IAS and power
setting were also very important. It is possible to make the AOA read
whatever you like, although the flight path might not be the one required.
Yes, the AOA will indicate the best glide angle but depending on the wind,
that might not give the best speed to fly. The ability to fly a constant
AOA loop is a little on the irrelevant side in an aircraft that is not
cleared for aerobatics.
I think that once in ground effect an AOA indication is a bit superfluous on
an aircraft that when landing is virtually stalled - monowheel anyway.
The choice of to buy or not to buy is an individual one, and I would be the
last to criticise anyone's decision to fit AOA. If it works for them, then
great. I would personally spend the money on a better radio or a Mode S
transponder.
My 2 pence worth.
Regards,
Mike
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Sent: 28 July 2008 16:15
Subject: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
I have been following the subject correspondence and must say I
think the proponents of the Europa Stall Warner have a point. However, their
sole interest appears to be finding out when they are going to stall - and
nothing else. That is of course important and stall strips will give them
that.
However when you turn to the AoA system, you encounter much more.
Having experienced an AoA approach to a carrier, I can say that there is no
comparison. Yes, it gives you your approach to a stall [and much more timely
and accurate warning than a stall warner does]. It also tells you when to
accept an ideal soar figure for loss of engine, when to revert to and use a
long-range attitude, how to loop with the same AoA around the circle - and
what effect ground effect has on stall speed. AND all these automatically
adjust for change in weight or CG - no charts needed.
The argument about diverting attention during landing loses value
when the warning is visual and in the vision of the lander, i.e: on the
coaming where the landing strip is seen. Since a change of colour is all it
provides, little or no conscious diversion should occur. Of course the ideal
warning should be in a HUD, but that's a touch effete in a Europa.
Naturally, a needle down on the instrument panel is useless for the stall
problem.
Just my $0.02.
Ferg
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Which one Rob? stall warner and AoA are both angle of attack devices ;-)
Graham
Rob Housman wrote:
>
> Only one of the following can reliably keep you from making a smoking hole
> in the ground if you make the wrong small mistake at the wrong altitude:
>
> Mode S transponder
> Better radio
> Stall warning device
> AOA
>
> Guess which one.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Pneumatic Installation |
OK, Uncle Uncle - you must be right.
MP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: 28 July 2008 21:46
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
Only one of the following can reliably keep you from making a smoking hole
in the ground if you make the wrong small mistake at the wrong altitude:
Mode S transponder
Better radio
Stall warning device
AOA
Guess which one.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 11:34 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
<mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com>
Hi Ferg,
All totally true. But don't forget that most "heavy metal" with AOA also
had a stick/pedal shaker. Presumably to warn those pilots of an incipient
stall that they had missed on the indexers/HUD. As I recall for deck ops,
the F4 had an AOA audio as well as indexer lights and a head down indicator.
Certainly, ours did.
I never did think that the AOA was the panacea to all ills. IAS and power
setting were also very important. It is possible to make the AOA read
whatever you like, although the flight path might not be the one required.
Yes, the AOA will indicate the best glide angle but depending on the wind,
that might not give the best speed to fly. The ability to fly a constant
AOA loop is a little on the irrelevant side in an aircraft that is not
cleared for aerobatics.
I think that once in ground effect an AOA indication is a bit superfluous on
an aircraft that when landing is virtually stalled - monowheel anyway.
The choice of to buy or not to buy is an individual one, and I would be the
last to criticise anyone's decision to fit AOA. If it works for them, then
great. I would personally spend the money on a better radio or a Mode S
transponder.
My 2 pence worth.
Regards,
Mike
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Sent: 28 July 2008 16:15
Subject: Europa-List: Pneumatic Installation
I have been following the subject correspondence and must say I
think the proponents of the Europa Stall Warner have a point. However, their
sole interest appears to be finding out when they are going to stall - and
nothing else. That is of course important and stall strips will give them
that.
However when you turn to the AoA system, you encounter much more.
Having experienced an AoA approach to a carrier, I can say that there is no
comparison. Yes, it gives you your approach to a stall [and much more timely
and accurate warning than a stall warner does]. It also tells you when to
accept an ideal soar figure for loss of engine, when to revert to and use a
long-range attitude, how to loop with the same AoA around the circle - and
what effect ground effect has on stall speed. AND all these automatically
adjust for change in weight or CG - no charts needed.
The argument about diverting attention during landing loses value
when the warning is visual and in the vision of the lander, i.e: on the
coaming where the landing strip is seen. Since a change of colour is all it
provides, little or no conscious diversion should occur. Of course the ideal
warning should be in a HUD, but that's a touch effete in a Europa.
Naturally, a needle down on the instrument panel is useless for the stall
problem.
Just my $0.02.
Ferg
Message 12
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| Subject: | Bio Methanol at Morrisons |
Hi ,
has anyone tryed the Bio Methanol at Morrisons , its not much cheaper than unleaded
but just wandering if anyone has taken the plunge,
steve.
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Hi Graham
"very careful attention to the leading
> edge profile (digital airfoil section as Don designed) make an enormous
> difference to the character of the stall. 3 times and 3 airplanes now
> many hours spent on the LE have given very good low speed handling. It's
> the first 3 inches of the leading edge that make all the difference."
Don Dykins talks of Europa airfoil in his book and essentially what he
does is puts an amount of NASA Lead Edge Droop that keeps stall very
acceptable but not so much as to increase high speed drag too much.
He accomplished this by using computer at work and plotting many points.
On Classic it is a lot harder to keep airfoil to his specification
compared to XS I am sure!
On my 80 oz 3/4 hp 48" flying wing I put articulatable NASA Lead Edge
droop on the outboard 1" of wing that has range between -5 and +30
degrees.
Without any droop the plane is stink fast, but I will crash 1 in 4
landings! Will snap upside down, almost unrecoverable from 1000 feet,
make a hole from 100 feet guaranteed.
Dial in ~ 10 degrees and the plane turns into a pussycat as far as stalls
go! Anything more and stall is fine just begins to drag up at higher
speeds.
As a note if I go to -5 degrees the plane is even faster than with 0
degrees, you do not want to get anywhere near stall, plane snaps upside
down sooooo fast.
I fooled with 5 degrees droop on much lighter loaded planes that had poor
stall manors (35oz and 20oz) and it cured the problem instantly.
Anyway looking at my XS short wing, the first about 3 inches on the bottom
looks just about right to my "eyechrometer" to be a great compromise to
allow benign stalling and not drag up at higher speeds.
I can see on a Classic if shape on bottom of wing gets changed not even
too much, plane will fly fine, but stalls can become interesting.
In Dons book he speaks of how nasty stalling on some yesteryear aircraft
was dealt with by adding in the field NASA Lead Edge Droop (Brits have
another name for NASA Lead Edge Droop). Idea is to keep taking some away
till stall got nasty then add a little more back, then attach permanent.
I mentioned a while back if I have a plane that drops a wing, instead of
stalling the better wing at a faster airspeed by installing stall strips,
I think I would rather fix the worst wing to fly slower.
Even on a plane where AOA on one wing and flap is off, NASA Lead Edge
droop added will help out, if not a complete fix, then at least in part
with stall strips if really whacked. I know that Bud thinks not much or
changing angle of a wing for a poor flying plane.
NASA Lead Edge Droop changes the AOA of the wing, by adding to the bottom
of the lead edge of the wing it decreases AOA of that wing.
I fully agree with Graham that starting with the lead edge lower part of
europa wing to be what Don had in mind ("Dons Droop") is a great idea.
Graham would you be willing to make up some profile templates so mere
mortals could check their plane? I for one will order.
Having too much droop will only cause high speed drag, too little can make
stall a lot more violent.
Flying a heavily loaded plane will probably bring out the worst in a
Europa with not enough of "Dons Droop". Since plane was designed for 1370
AUW, flying at 1450, 1500 or 1525 even if it is only a few times in the
life of your europa it would be wise to make sure you have at least what
Don had in mind.
Ron Parigoris
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Ooooopppps
"> On my 80 oz 3/4 hp 48" flying wing I put articulatable NASA Lead Edge
> droop on the outboard 1" of wing"
Sorry that should have been 1 foot not 1". Each half of wing is 2 feet
long (24") and 1 foot (12") is articulatable.
Ron P.
BTW on my flying wings as I mentioned the weight ranges from 10oz to 80oz.
That is bout the same as flying a short wing europa between 750lbs and
7,500lbs!
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Hi Ron
The essential thing is that the nose radius is quite small, therefore
VERY easily sanded away, it is also as you say drooped a bit. The effect
is very subtle and not obvious to the unaided eye.
My confused PC has hidden the CAD file of the airfoil section somewhere.
(I Hate Windoze!) I did publish it on the forum a few weeks ago so
anyone who has it please republish it?
Can't see myself being able to help just at the moment. Too many other
pressures, not least a depressed Long EZ still not ready.
Graham
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
>
> Hi Graham
> Don Dykins talks of Europa airfoil in his book and essentially what he
> does is puts an amount of NASA Lead Edge Droop that keeps stall very
> acceptable but not so much as to increase high speed drag too much.
> Graham would you be willing to make up some profile templates so mere
> mortals could check their plane? I for one will order.
>
> Having too much droop will only cause high speed drag, too little can make
> stall a lot more violent.
>
> Flying a heavily loaded plane will probably bring out the worst in a
> Europa with not enough of "Dons Droop". Since plane was designed for 1370
> AUW, flying at 1450, 1500 or 1525 even if it is only a few times in the
> life of your europa it would be wise to make sure you have at least what
> Don had in mind.
>
> Ron Parigoris
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Sorry guys too much spackling today
"> BTW on my flying wings as I mentioned the weight ranges from 10oz to
80oz.
> That is bout the same as flying a short wing europa between 750lbs and
> 7,500lbs!"
Should have been between 750lbs and 6,000lbs.
Ron P.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Installation |
Hi Graham
I have a copy of the profile you posted and will attach to this E-Mail.
I don't have a program to open though.
Anyone want to make up some wing profiles?
Could sent them around like reamers for mod 72.
Ron Parigoris
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Attachments:
http://www.europaowners.org//zfiles/wing_profile_graham_2_202.dwg
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