Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:55 AM - Re: sight tube (R Holder)
2. 01:37 AM - Re: sight tube (Graham Singleton)
3. 05:35 AM - Re: sight tube (h&jeuropa)
4. 06:32 AM - Classic FWF Pix (Troy Maynor)
5. 12:25 PM - Re: sight tube ()
6. 02:06 PM - Re: sight tube (Tony Krzyzewski)
7. 02:44 PM - Re: sight tube (Greg Fuchs)
8. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: sight tube (Greg Fuchs)
9. 03:05 PM - Re: sight tube (Greg Fuchs)
10. 03:24 PM - Maximum flap extension? (Frans Veldman)
11. 03:25 PM - Re: sight tube (Paul McAllister)
12. 03:35 PM - Re: sight tube (Greg Fuchs)
13. 03:49 PM - Re: sight tube (Greg Fuchs)
14. 04:48 PM - Re: sight tube (Tony Krzyzewski)
15. 06:24 PM - Re: Maximum flap extension? (Christoph Both)
16. 07:24 PM - Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units (John & Paddy Wigney)
17. 07:52 PM - Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
18. 09:14 PM - Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units (Venu Rao)
19. 09:36 PM - Re: sight tube (Greg Fuchs)
Message 1
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Greg Fuchs wrote:
> Yes, this magnet/reed switch idea does seem very
> reliable. Too bad its not avail anymore.
Shown on the Europa site as Mod 60.
Could be still available if it is shown :-)
> Hmmm.... I suppose someone can make a homegrown cork
> with a magnet inside of it for the site glass/pipe,
> with some reed switches in the back of it, out of the
> way behind the sight card.
> I think the way the cap. meter reads the water at the
> bottom of the tank is a great point, and a very good
> reason to have at least one in the system!
> Was thinking of going with the Tony K idea at one
> point, but do not know where to go to get the
> schematic/build description/programming data. Yes it is
> quite elegant soln. Let me know if you have this info.
The capacitive meter reads differently for Mogas and Avgas
I believe.
Richard
G-OWWW
High Cross
Message 2
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Greg
the reed switch device is available.
<http://www.avnet.co.uk/lts/fuelgauge.php> Talk to Gerry Davis and tell
him I told you. ;-)
Tony K might sell you the chip and details for his gauge, ask him.
<tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
The first stand alone gauge of this type was installed by Graham Clarke
in the earl;y days. He used an old ASI to sense the head. Tricky to
engineer but it did work. Our PFA weren't happy but Graham was a skilled
innovator who worked for Marconi on radar and stuff.
Graham
Greg Fuchs wrote:
>
> Hi Graham,
>
> Yes, this magnet/reed switch idea does seem very reliable. Too bad its not
> avail anymore. Hmmm.... I suppose someone can make a homegrown cork with a
> magnet inside of it for the site glass/pipe, with some reed switches in the
> back of it, out of the way behind the sight card.
>
> I think the way the cap. meter reads the water at the bottom of the tank is
> a great point, and a very good reason to have at least one in the system!
>
> Was thinking of going with the Tony K idea at one point, but do not know
> where to go to get the schematic/build description/programming data. Yes it
> is quite elegant soln. Let me know if you have this info.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
Message 3
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A couple of responses.
In my experiments, I think some fuel leaked out of the ends but some also must
have gone through the wall of the tubing. Then ends were plugged with 1/4" rods
and a plastic clamp. Any scratch on the rod would allow leakage.
I have Tony K's fuel gauge documentation. I can email it if anyone wants it.
I just used the sensor and an op amp to make a sensor that puts out 0-5 VDC based
on pressure. I also have a schematic of that if anyone wants that.
Jim Butcher
N241BW
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196382#196382
Message 4
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Hi Folks,
Calling all classic firewall forward owners. I would be extremely grateful
if you can send me pictures of your engine installation. I would like to
only have to route fuel, water, and oil hoses, wiring, egt, cht, and
anything else, only one time. I have the standard classic manual, but it is
not to very clear, to me anyway. If you can point me to pix on the net that
show some of this that would help. Clamping all this securely is necessary
but a base line of which one to start with would be helpful. Thanks.
Troy Maynor
N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
Left to finish:
Interior, engine install, some wiring.
Weaverville, NC USA
Message 5
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">> Yes, this magnet/reed switch idea does seem very
>> reliable. Too bad its not avail anymore.
>
> Shown on the Europa site as Mod 60."
I am installing the float style 8 position reed switch from Europa.
The way it works is there are magnets in the float and they sweep past the
reed switches and close them. Each station will give a a different
resistance.
I think the 8 stations are probably thought out to give accurate readings
on Europa tank?? The reason I say that is the throw needed is different
near the bottom of the tank and the top.
Pretty neat thing about reed switch and a magnet is there is a certain
natural hysteresis, so if float is bobbing around a bit it will not
constant be moving gauge.
I was not thrilled with the supplied by Europa VDO gauge, so measured the
resistance and had UMA build me a 1+1/4" EL back lit gauge.
If anyone is interested I have notated resistance values for each station.
Ron Parigoris
Message 6
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>> Was thinking of going with the Tony K idea at one point, but do not
know
>> where to go to get the schematic/build description/programming data.
Yes it
>> is quite elegant soln. Let me know if you have this info.
www.kaon.co.nz/europa/fuelgaugev3.pdf
I am happy to supply the hex files for programming into the two PIC
processors required at no charge or can provide a pair of pre programmed
PIC processors for USD25. All of the other parts can be sourced from RS
Components or Farnell.
Regards
Tony
Message 7
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>the reed switch device is available.
Ok, two emails show it is out there yet, I misinterpreted 'Europa used to
sell' in a previous email, is all. There are many options to choose from to
get fuel level readings.
>Graham was a skilled innovator who worked for Marconi on radar and stuff.
Graham
It Reminds me of the days of Marconi, Tesla, Edison, JP Morgan, and all.
Graham Clarke could probably give us some second-hand history lessons about
some of the earliest radar and radio transmission! (and some of the
rivalries back then) :)
Message 8
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Jim,
Yes, I suppose with such small volumes it wouldn't take much time for the
volatile substance to leak out.
I AM interested in the doc and the schematic, if you have them handy. I did
try to get the docs from the source once upon a time, but my email must have
got swallowed somehow. Please send them to me. I like your simple solution
very much.
Thanks in advance,
Greg F
>Then ends were plugged with 1/4" rods and a plastic clamp. Any scratch on
>the rod would allow leakage.
>I have Tony K's fuel gauge documentation. I can email it if anyone wants
>it. I just used the sensor and an op amp to make a sensor that puts out
0->5 VDC based on pressure. I also have a schematic of that if anyone wants
>that.
>Jim Butcher
>N241BW
Message 9
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Oops, I just got your response. :-)
Thanks Tony, I just saw your documention. I will decide if I need the hex
files, and will let you know if I do.
Thanks much for the effort!
Regards,
Greg
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Krzyzewski
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: sight tube
>> Was thinking of going with the Tony K idea at one point, but do not know
>> where to go to get the schematic/build description/programming data. Yes
it
>> is quite elegant soln. Let me know if you have this info.
www.kaon.co.nz/europa/fuelgaugev3.pdf
I am happy to supply the hex files for programming into the two PIC
processors required at no charge or can provide a pair of pre programmed PIC
processors for USD25. All of the other parts can be sourced from RS
Components or Farnell.
Regards
Tony
Message 10
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| Subject: | Maximum flap extension? |
Hi,
I just finished installing the flap drive mechanism. My assumption was that the
strap on the outboard flap hinge determined the maximum flap extension, i.e.
30 degrees. So when I installed the flap drive tube, I made slots in the fuselage
to accommodate the entire range for the flaps.
To my dismay, after installation of the actuator, the flaps only use 2/3th of the
available range. The actuator reaches its limit far before the strap of the
outboard flap hinge reaches its limit.
To be sure, I measured the difference in angle of the flap, between fully retracted
and "fully" extended. This is only 24 degrees! I confirmed this with a digital
gauge. Now I don't see how I can have done something wrong with this, as
long as you don't cut the hinges or reshape the flap drive tube, you can't alter
the maximum flap extension.
As a further test, I temporarily attached the Europa flap indicator decal on the
flap and wing, and to my surprise this decal tells me that the flap, fully extended,
reaches 30 degrees...
Several questions cross my mind:
1) Is my method to measure the maximum flap extension correct? Does "30 degrees
flaps" actually mean that the flaps have rotated 30 degrees?
2) Has anyone else actually measured the maximum flap extension? The build manual
doesn't tell you to measure it, but I suspect I'm not the only one who wants
to measure everything related to the controls. Or does everyone else just trust
the Europa flap indicator decal?
3) Why do I only get 24 degrees of flap extension? Maybe on the mono wheel it is
reaching 30 degrees, but on the tri-gear the electrical actuator is just too
short so it limits the flaps to 24 degrees?
4) If I drill another hole in the lugs of the flap drive tube, closer to the rotation
center (i.e. truncating the lever action of the lugs) I will get more flap
travel (at the cost of a slight reduction in flap drive power). Anyone tried
this? It seems to me a safe way to fix this problem.
5) What is actually the maximum flap extension one can obtain? I suspect that it
is possible to actually get more than 30 degrees if the full travel allowed
by the outboard hinges is fully used. (I'm flying a Cessna with 40 degrees flaps,
and I really love these 40 degrees flaps). Anyone tried/implemented this?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
Frans
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 11
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Greg,
I have been using Tony's system for 4 years and I can say that it
works very nicely. If you want to round up the HEX files from Tony I
can program the PIC's for you.
Paul
Message 12
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Ron,
>Pretty neat thing about reed switch and a magnet is there is a certain
>natural hysteresis, so if float is bobbing around a bit it will not
>constant be moving gauge.
This design does seem bulletproof (I guess its piecewise linear!)
>measured theresistance and had UMA build me a 1+1/4" EL back lit gauge.
That will be a pretty display, I have always thought EL lighting produces
some of the best looks out there.
Regards,
Greg
Message 13
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Thanks Paul, you are very kind. I do not currently own the proper
programmer.
My current plan is to go with an MGL Avionics Odyssey. I bet I can take the
sensor output and slightly re-scale it to match the Odyssey input needed,
but have not looked at it yet. It sounds like Jim Butcher has done something
similar. Tony K's system is so well thought out, that it almost hurts me
not to use it, so If I need a remote sensor output somewhere, I will
definitely take you up on your offer.
Thanks for your help,
Greg
>Greg,
>I have been using Tony's system for 4 years and I can say that it
>works very nicely. If you want to round up the HEX files from Tony I
>can program the PIC's for you.
>Paul
Message 14
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> My current plan is to go with an MGL Avionics Odyssey. I bet I can
take the
> sensor output and slightly re-scale it to match the Odyssey input
needed,
> but have not looked at it yet.
If you are using a system that a 0-5v input and has it's own scaling
capability (such as the Dynon) then all you need is the power supply,
pressure transducer, amplifier and clamping diode part of my circuit.
I'd just add a 22k ohm resistor in the output line to limit the current.
Fill the tank and then adjust the potentiometer on the amplifier to give
you 5v at the input of your instrument. Once you have done that you can
follow the linearisation process provided by the instrument
manufacturer.
Tony
Message 15
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| Subject: | Maximum flap extension? |
Hi Frans:
I have a Classic TRI conversion. I also ended up with less flap travel,
measured with a digital level affixed to the flap top surface. I have
max 26 degrees. I do trust my digital level and so I phoned the factory.
They said for TRI 26 degrees would be just fine.
I still feel 30 degree would be better but I guess the flight test will
show.
I would be cautious of re-drilling the lug, effectively moving the
pushrod more to the centre. This is why: you definitively need to have
sufficient material around the new lug hole (I consider a full diameter
of the bore an absolute minimum). But moving the new bore this much
inboard while keeping material standards and building practices up will
most certainly be more drastic than what you want to achieve. In brief,
you will get most likely more than 30 degrees - NO GOOD.
Call the factory and ask what they suggest. I can see a solution by
welding on an additional layer of same steel to the lug and then
re-drill to the correct hole location (after lots of experimentation
with cardboard templates etc. !). This will definitively fix it.
Christoph Both
#223 Wolfville Nova Scotia
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Frans Veldman
Sent: Mon 8/4/2008 7:22 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Maximum flap extension?
<frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Hi,
I just finished installing the flap drive mechanism. My assumption was
that the strap on the outboard flap hinge determined the maximum flap
extension, i.e. 30 degrees. So when I installed the flap drive tube, I
made slots in the fuselage to accommodate the entire range for the
flaps.
To my dismay, after installation of the actuator, the flaps only use
2/3th of the available range. The actuator reaches its limit far before
the strap of the outboard flap hinge reaches its limit.
To be sure, I measured the difference in angle of the flap, between
fully retracted and "fully" extended. This is only 24 degrees! I
confirmed this with a digital gauge. Now I don't see how I can have done
something wrong with this, as long as you don't cut the hinges or
reshape the flap drive tube, you can't alter the maximum flap extension.
As a further test, I temporarily attached the Europa flap indicator
decal on the flap and wing, and to my surprise this decal tells me that
the flap, fully extended, reaches 30 degrees...
Several questions cross my mind:
1) Is my method to measure the maximum flap extension correct? Does "30
degrees flaps" actually mean that the flaps have rotated 30 degrees?
2) Has anyone else actually measured the maximum flap extension? The
build manual doesn't tell you to measure it, but I suspect I'm not the
only one who wants to measure everything related to the controls. Or
does everyone else just trust the Europa flap indicator decal?
3) Why do I only get 24 degrees of flap extension? Maybe on the mono
wheel it is reaching 30 degrees, but on the tri-gear the electrical
actuator is just too short so it limits the flaps to 24 degrees?
4) If I drill another hole in the lugs of the flap drive tube, closer to
the rotation center (i.e. truncating the lever action of the lugs) I
will get more flap travel (at the cost of a slight reduction in flap
drive power). Anyone tried this? It seems to me a safe way to fix this
problem.
5) What is actually the maximum flap extension one can obtain? I suspect
that it is possible to actually get more than 30 degrees if the full
travel allowed by the outboard hinges is fully used. (I'm flying a
Cessna with 40 degrees flaps, and I really love these 40 degrees flaps).
Anyone tried/implemented this?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
Frans
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 16
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| Subject: | Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units |
Dear Europaphiles,
I have been busy over the last few weeks and have also been to Oshkosh
so have been unable to join the recent discussion on stall and AOA
warning. I hope you will forgive me for a lengthy discourse on this and
another safety topic.
Before I started building my Europa, I had been reading aviation
publications for many years. I came to the conclusion that in sport
aviation there are two very common and preventable accident types and
that these cause many fatalities. I therefore decided to equip my plane
to minimise the risk.
Firstly - Running out of fuel. Some but not all of these incidents are
fatal.. I recommend a fuel flow meter with a display to show endurance
and fuel remaining, preferably with an alarm at 4 gallons say. An
independent capacitance gauge display is also wise for redundancy.
Secondly - Stall and spin accidents on approach. Low down and in the
pattern, these are often fatal. A stall warning or an AOA warning unit
will save your life in these situations. I find it puzzling that there
is not more attention paid to the this hazard at airshows and similar
events where there is busy traffic, many distractions and sometimes
confusing instructions from controllers. We are all aware of Cliff
Shaw's fatal accident at Oshkosh in 2006 which upset our Europa
community greatly. Having just come back from Oshkosh where there was
yet another stall spin accident with a Lancair on final approach in good
weather (2 fatalities), I decided to do a study of the available FAA
data. I found the information to be very interesting.
At the Sun N Fun and Oshkosh shows only, from 1988 to 2008, there have
been 14 stall, and stall spin accidents. There were 13 fatalities, 9
uninjured and 2 minor injuries. I believe that many of these could have
been prevented if a stall or AOA warning unit was in use. If anyone is
interested I can send the details. I have no idea how many similar
accidents have occurred at other airports. I suspect it is quite high.
As Michael Grass explained in a recent email, I have the Advanced Flight
Systems AOA unit mounted in a Head Up Display type of installation with
a small retractable mirror. It is on top of the panel and directly in
the field of view on approach; it needs no head turning. This setup is
not a must-have but it is nice.The unit adjusts for flaps up or down and
gives an insistent "ANGLE, ANGLE, PUSH" instruction in the headsets.
Again, if anyone would like a photo of that installation, please let me
know. Any unit is better than none. Dynon, Rite Angle AOA from EM
Aviation, the Europa stall warner, etc. are all very good units.
Cheers, John
N262WF, mono XS, 912S
Mooresville, North Carolina
EAA Technical Counselor No. 5182
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units |
Good morning John,
If you happen to have a pix of your mirror setup I would be very interested.
I have mounted my AOA LED display on the instrument panel as high and close
to center as possible, but have been giving thought as to a poor man's HUD by
mounting it from inside the IM and have it reflect on the windshield. But I
am not sure if it's bright enough for this task, so a properly located mirror
may be much better.
Thanks in advance.
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300A
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units |
Here's a pic of what Jim Nelson did for an AOA on 058.
It's an Advanced Flight Systems AOA Pro.
Very slick - still learning how to calibrate it.
Cheers,
Venu Rao
Austin, Texas
Europa - Mono
A-058 Flying
119.8 hours
Builder: James Nelson
"Flying is a compromise with the elements one does not need to
challenge"
- Capt. K.G. Rao, Dir. of Ops (retd), Air-India
On Aug 4, 2008, at 9:18 PM, John & Paddy Wigney wrote:
> >
>
> Dear Europaphiles,
>
> I have been busy over the last few weeks and have also been to
> Oshkosh so have been unable to join the recent discussion on stall
> and AOA warning. I hope you will forgive me for a lengthy discourse
> on this and another safety topic.
>
> Before I started building my Europa, I had been reading aviation
> publications for many years. I came to the conclusion that in sport
> aviation there are two very common and preventable accident types
> and that these cause many fatalities. I therefore decided to equip
> my plane to minimise the risk.
>
> Firstly - Running out of fuel. Some but not all of these incidents
> are fatal.. I recommend a fuel flow meter with a display to show
> endurance and fuel remaining, preferably with an alarm at 4 gallons
> say. An independent capacitance gauge display is also wise for
> redundancy.
>
> Secondly - Stall and spin accidents on approach. Low down and in the
> pattern, these are often fatal. A stall warning or an AOA warning
> unit will save your life in these situations. I find it puzzling
> that there is not more attention paid to the this hazard at airshows
> and similar events where there is busy traffic, many distractions
> and sometimes confusing instructions from controllers. We are all
> aware of Cliff Shaw's fatal accident at Oshkosh in 2006 which upset
> our Europa community greatly. Having just come back from Oshkosh
> where there was yet another stall spin accident with a Lancair on
> final approach in good weather (2 fatalities), I decided to do a
> study of the available FAA data. I found the information to be very
> interesting.
>
> At the Sun N Fun and Oshkosh shows only, from 1988 to 2008, there
> have been 14 stall, and stall spin accidents. There were 13
> fatalities, 9 uninjured and 2 minor injuries. I believe that many of
> these could have been prevented if a stall or AOA warning unit was
> in use. If anyone is interested I can send the details. I have no
> idea how many similar accidents have occurred at other airports. I
> suspect it is quite high.
>
> As Michael Grass explained in a recent email, I have the Advanced
> Flight Systems AOA unit mounted in a Head Up Display type of
> installation with a small retractable mirror. It is on top of the
> panel and directly in the field of view on approach; it needs no
> head turning. This setup is not a must-have but it is nice.The unit
> adjusts for flaps up or down and gives an insistent "ANGLE, ANGLE,
> PUSH" instruction in the headsets. Again, if anyone would like a
> photo of that installation, please let me know. Any unit is better
> than none. Dynon, Rite Angle AOA from EM Aviation, the Europa stall
> warner, etc. are all very good units.
>
> Cheers, John
>
> N262WF, mono XS, 912S
> Mooresville, North Carolina
> EAA Technical Counselor No. 5182
>
>
Message 19
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Yes, it looks like I would be able to use the same input conditioning for an
EFIS that you used for the PIC. I would need both the 12V regulator (sensor
and Burr-Brown amp) and 5 volt regulator to use the clamping diodes.
I looked up info on the Odyssey again, and it will handle up to two tank
inputs, but it wants resistive inputs to its engine management system.
Remembering back, this is another reason I went with a standard float type
sensor.
That said, I think an analog fuel level gauge would look nice (and fit) on
the center console, close to the fuel valve. Could simplify, and get rid of
the clamp circuit. Linearity of fuel used might be my only problem then,
and that is where reverting back to the PIC circuitry may have to happen.
Chasing my tail in this paragraph. :-)
If I had stuck with the Dynon EFIS idea, it would have made this part
easier.
Greg F
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Krzyzewski
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 4:44 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: sight tube
> My current plan is to go with an MGL Avionics Odyssey. I bet I can take
the
> sensor output and slightly re-scale it to match the Odyssey input needed,
> but have not looked at it yet.
If you are using a system that a 0-5v input and has it's own scaling
capability (such as the Dynon) then all you need is the power supply,
pressure transducer, amplifier and clamping diode part of my circuit. I'd
just add a 22k ohm resistor in the output line to limit the current.
Fill the tank and then adjust the potentiometer on the amplifier to give you
5v at the input of your instrument. Once you have done that you can follow
the linearisation process provided by the instrument manufacturer.
Tony
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