Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:02 AM - Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units (Mark Burton)
2. 01:22 AM - Re: Maximum flap extension? (David Joyce)
3. 02:01 AM - Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator (Bryan Allsop)
4. 02:07 AM - Re: Maximum flap extension? (G-IANI)
5. 02:07 AM - Re: Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units (Graham Singleton)
6. 02:28 AM - Re: Maximum flap extension? (Graham Singleton)
7. 02:47 AM - Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units (Mark Burton)
8. 05:24 AM - Europa project for sale (bill stevenson)
9. 05:48 AM - Re: Spins (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
10. 06:03 AM - Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units (CHUCK RHOADS)
11. 06:19 AM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Spins? (Carl Pattinson)
12. 06:22 AM - Re: Re: Spins (William Daniell)
13. 09:34 AM - Redux please (William Daniell)
14. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Spins ()
15. 11:00 AM - Re: Re: Spins (William Daniell)
16. 11:30 AM - Re: Re: Spins (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
17. 11:37 AM - Re: Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units (david miller)
18. 11:52 AM - Re: Maximum flap extension? (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
19. 12:00 PM - Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator (Duncan & Ami McFadyean)
20. 12:20 PM - Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator (Bill Henderson)
21. 12:23 PM - Bose X Aviation Headset For Sale (Geico266)
22. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units (Robert C Harrison)
23. 01:51 PM - Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator (josok)
24. 03:38 PM - Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator (GTH)
25. 04:08 PM - Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator (Graham Singleton)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units |
Folks,
Although it is neither an AOA system or a stall warner, my SmartASS unit (www.smartavionics.com) will help the pilot to maintain a safe margin of speed above the stall on approach. I sincerely believe that if such a system had been in use, it may well have been sufficient to prevent some of the stall/spin on approach accidents that have occurred.
With a SmartASS working in "speed director mode", on approach, a calm (female)
voice talks to you about your speed. If the speed is about right, she occasionally,
says "speed good". If the speed is wrong, she says "slow" (or "fast"), if
the speed is very wrong, she says "very slow", (or "very fast"). The voice is
normally not very intrusive. If the speed is insanely slow/fast you get a loud
DING as well. The unit is G sensitive so it factors the vertical acceleration
into the speed calculation so if you are pulling G, it reports slowness even
if the actual airspeed is correct.
When you start using the speed director it seems quite fussy, always telling you
to slow down or speed up. But once you have flown a few approaches with it and
smoothed out your flying it becomes completely normal to have this little voice
in the background making comments and because you are used to listening and
reacting to what she tells you (makes a change, eh?), you follow the suggestions
and so the approach speed is maintained close to the chosen value with very
little effort on the part of the pilot.
The point I am making is that once you are used to using it, taking in and reacting
to the information presented by the SmartASS becomes so easy it's almost
subliminal. From a flight safety point of view, I believe that is good because
it frees up some valuable pilot mental effort and allows the pilot to concentrate
more on lookout/spatial awareness.
A stall warning system is better than nothing because you may hear it and react,
but then again, (when the pressure is on) you may not.
I have not used an AOA system but I would expect with a good HUD they would be
OK when the pilot is looking straight ahead. The audio option could be useful
as long as the brain hasn't switched off due to overload.
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196563#196563
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Maximum flap extension? |
Frans, For the XS mono kit 402 the manual says the aim is to get the flaps
to extend to 26-27 degrees. The supplied Europa final inspection sheet
stipulates minimum 25 and max 27 degrees. Hope this helps. regards, David
Joyce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 11:22 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Maximum flap extension?
> <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
>
> Hi,
>
> I just finished installing the flap drive mechanism. My assumption was
> that the strap on the outboard flap hinge determined the maximum flap
> extension, i.e. 30 degrees. So when I installed the flap drive tube, I
> made slots in the fuselage to accommodate the entire range for the flaps.
>
> To my dismay, after installation of the actuator, the flaps only use 2/3th
> of the available range. The actuator reaches its limit far before the
> strap of the outboard flap hinge reaches its limit.
>
> To be sure, I measured the difference in angle of the flap, between fully
> retracted and "fully" extended. This is only 24 degrees! I confirmed this
> with a digital gauge. Now I don't see how I can have done something wrong
> with this, as long as you don't cut the hinges or reshape the flap drive
> tube, you can't alter the maximum flap extension.
>
> As a further test, I temporarily attached the Europa flap indicator decal
> on the flap and wing, and to my surprise this decal tells me that the
> flap, fully extended, reaches 30 degrees...
>
> Several questions cross my mind:
>
> 1) Is my method to measure the maximum flap extension correct? Does "30
> degrees flaps" actually mean that the flaps have rotated 30 degrees?
>
> 2) Has anyone else actually measured the maximum flap extension? The build
> manual doesn't tell you to measure it, but I suspect I'm not the only one
> who wants to measure everything related to the controls. Or does everyone
> else just trust the Europa flap indicator decal?
>
> 3) Why do I only get 24 degrees of flap extension? Maybe on the mono wheel
> it is reaching 30 degrees, but on the tri-gear the electrical actuator is
> just too short so it limits the flaps to 24 degrees?
>
> 4) If I drill another hole in the lugs of the flap drive tube, closer to
> the rotation center (i.e. truncating the lever action of the lugs) I will
> get more flap travel (at the cost of a slight reduction in flap drive
> power). Anyone tried this? It seems to me a safe way to fix this problem.
>
> 5) What is actually the maximum flap extension one can obtain? I suspect
> that it is possible to actually get more than 30 degrees if the full
> travel allowed by the outboard hinges is fully used. (I'm flying a Cessna
> with 40 degrees flaps, and I really love these 40 degrees flaps). Anyone
> tried/implemented this?
>
> Thanks in advance for any answers.
>
> Frans
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
Hi Steve=2C
My regulator is positioned on the firewall behind the plenum chamber=2C wit
hout a heat sink. Last time he did an annual inspection Graham Singleton lo
oked at it oddly=2C and asked if I had experienced problems with the regula
tor. Apparently overheating had been common problem. I told him that I had
not=2C and forgot about it.
Only last week I had a radio failure in flight. I noticed that the voltage
had dropped and returned to investigate. Sure enough=2C there was no voltag
e from the Ducati regulator to the battery. After an hour or two trying to
prove to myself that I did not need to buy a new regulator=2C I failed=2C a
nd had to spend =A375 + del. to purchase a new one.
Retrospectively=2C I can look back and recognise that the failure has been
taking place intermittently for more than a year. I can recall odd times wh
en the voltage had dropped=2C and I put it down to other things. More recen
tly it has taken a little time for the voltage to come up to the charging l
evel. It is a bit like old age=2C you begin to accept that visiting the bat
hroom in the middle of the night is normal.
My recent investigations illustrate that there is quite a history overheati
ng problems with Ducati regulators. Hopefully the later models have been im
proved. Certainly the back of my unit does not give a good heat sink area.
Despite this=2C the regulator has been installed and working for over eight
years.
This all leads me to suggest that you would be well advised to position the
regulator in a way which will minimise heating problems. A good heat sink
would be an advantage.
Hope this helps.
Bryan
> From: steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com> To: europa-list@matronics.com> Subject:
Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator> Date: Sun=2C 3 Aug 2008 19:33:01
world.com>> > Dear All=2C> I hope I am not repeating a thread but I would a
ppreciate input from the > forum on where builders have positioned their re
gulators. My reason for > asking is that I may have an intermittent fault i
n the electrical generation > system and having done some fault tracing wit
h Conrad Beale and Skydrive it > is pointing to the rectifier and the possi
bility that it has become 'cooked' > and thus developed the intermittent wo
rkings.> My fitment is on the flat above the pilot's footwell=2C but the op
inion > expressed so far is that there is not enough air circulation to kee
p it > cool=2C especially after landing. I still have the side gills to the
top > cowling.> Thanks in anticipation.> Steve Pitt> G-SMDH Trigear XS. >
====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Get more from your digital life. Find out how.
http://www.windowslive.com/default.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Home2_082008
Message 4
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Subject: | Maximum flap extension? |
As David says it should be 26-27 degrees. Mine ended up dead on 27.
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
-----Original Message-----
Frans, For the XS mono kit 402 the manual says the aim is to get the flaps
to extend to 26-27 degrees. The supplied Europa final inspection sheet
stipulates minimum 25 and max 27 degrees. Hope this helps. regards, David
Joyce
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Subject: | Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units |
Mark
(imho of course) If your SmartASS was couple to AoA it would be even
better because it would keep you on the correct speed. AoA is
predictive, ASI is "postdictive " if you see what I mean
Graham
Mark Burton wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> Although it is neither an AOA system or a stall warner, my SmartASS unit (www.smartavionics.com) will help the
>
> The point I am making is that once you are used to using it, taking in and reacting
to the information presented by the SmartASS becomes so easy it's almost
subliminal. From a flight safety point of view, I believe that is good because
it frees up some valuable pilot mental effort and allows the pilot to concentrate
more on lookout/spatial awareness.
>
> Mark
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Maximum flap extension? |
Europa factory tried 30degrees on a mono wheel and found that the
airplane would lift off too early, (ground effect) so you end up flying
without aileron control. That's why 27 is considered the max deflection.
Graham
David Joyce wrote:
> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> Frans, For the XS mono kit 402 the manual says the aim is to get the
> flaps to extend to 26-27 degrees. The supplied Europa final inspection
> sheet stipulates minimum 25 and max 27 degrees. Hope this helps.
> regards, David Joyce
>
>
>> <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just finished installing the flap drive mechanism. My assumption
>> was that the strap on the outboard flap hinge determined the maximum
>> flap extension, i.e. 30 degrees. So when I installed the flap drive
>> tube, I made slots in the fuselage to accommodate the entire range
>> for the flaps.
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units |
Hi Graham,
>From what I read, good AOA information is the ultimate indicator of
how the wing is doing with respect to airspeed/loading, etc. and, therefore,
is the perfect source of information for not only stall warning but also
maximising aircraft performance.
The problem I have with existing AOA products is the user interface. I won't explain
again my thoughts on that, I have expounded them enough already.
As for your suggestion that ASI is "postdictive", I understand what you are saying
but when you add G to the equation, you have a (near)
instantaneous detection of gusts/hamfistedness, etc. The SmartASS (Mk2)
is no slower to react than an AOA system.
So, I am not going to make a AOA instrument because:
a - I have no experience in that field.
b - there is already enough AOA systems on the market and I couldn't
hope to compete with those mature products (even though, I believe
they all could be improved in terms of their UI).
c - for approach stall/spin avoidance, the airspeed+G system provides
adequate protection and doesn't require any extra hardware (no ports
or vanes) apart from the SmartASS box itself.
Cheers,
Mark
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196573#196573
Message 8
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Subject: | Europa project for sale |
Hello,
I have placed my Europa project up for sale: I currently have too many
airplanes and projects.
The kit has most glass work, especially the wings, completed in jigs at
Flight Crafters in Zephyrhills, FL
a company that has built many Europas. The kit is an early one, but has
current XS features incorporated.
Talk to Bob Berube at Flight Crafters, bberube@tampabay.rr.com or
813.779.1156.
Please see ad in Barnstormers.com under Europa in the Experimental section.
I estimate that the project
is about 49% completed. Price is $19,950.
Bill Stevenson
Message 9
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In a message dated 8/5/2008 3:01:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list@matronics.com writes:
Secondly - Stall and spin accidents on approach. Low down and in the
pattern, these are often fatal.
Hi John and All,
Adding to John's excellent commentary, over the years while I was operating
a glider tow club I took dozens and dozens of folks for glider rides. Many of
these folks were power only pilots and had never been in a glider before.
Personally, I like doing spins in gliders. Spins are a great way to get down
at the end of the day in a glider. Very often when doing rides I would spin
down if I had another pilot on board. Of course, I always ask if they want to
do a spin before I "show them their toes."
One of the things I've noticed when I've done spins with power only pilots,
and it's been almost universal, is power only pilots, unless they have
military training, seem to genuinely fear spins. I can see this fear from the
back
seat when the pilot/passenger tightly grips hand holds in the cockpit, or if
they get really quiet just as you enter the spin. This is not a good thing
because if you fear something it usually means that you don't understand it.
I believe the root of this fear is because spins, generally speaking, are
not taught in power planes and most pilots rarely, if ever, practice spins.
Student pilots are told what a spin is, how to recover, then are usually told
to
avoid them. Stall/spin recovery is taught in gliders, though. Spin training
is also available in power planes.
I would suggest that anyone who is uncertain of, or anyone who has genuine
fear of spins, go take spin training and rid yourself of that fear. Most glider
schools offer spin training and most aerobatic flight instructors also
offer spin training. There are many bad habits pilots have in regard to spins,
particularly in terms of spin recovery. These bad habits, like trying to stop
the spin by applying opposite aileron, will make a bad situation much worse
when close to the ground. Pilots can avoid these bad habits with the proper
spin training. Everyone should learn the correct spin entry and recovery
techniques so well that they become second nature. It's just an added arrow in
your
quiver of piloting skills and a skill that might one day save your life.
Much like aerobatics, spins shouldn't be feared, unless, of course, you are
too close to the ground to recover. Like aerobatics and unusual attitude
recovery training, proper spin training will assist you in not ever putting
yourself into a position where a spin will kill you.
That's my 2 cents.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units |
=0A-__________________________________________________________=0AChuck Rh
oads=0Acfrhoads@yahoo.com=0A322 Links Dr.=0ASimpsonville, KY 40067=0A(502)
410-1357=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: "DuaneFamly@aol.com
" <DuaneFamly@aol.com>=0ATo: europa-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, Augu
st 4, 2008 10:49:24 PM=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Safety matters including
stall and AOA warning units=0A=0AGood morning John,=0A-=0AIf you happen
to have a pix of your mirror setup I would be very interested. I have mount
ed my AOA LED display on the instrument panel as high and close to center a
s possible, but have been giving thought as to a poor man's HUD by mounting
it from inside the IM and have it reflect on the windshield. But I am not
sure if it's bright enough for this task, so a properly located mirror may
be much better.=0A-=0AThanks in advance. =0A-=0AMike Duane A207A=0ARedd
ing, California=0AXS Conventional Gear=0AJabiru 3300A=0ASensenich R64Z N=0A
Ground Adjustable Prop=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0ALoo
king for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on
===========0A=0A=0A
Message 11
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Subject: | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Re=3A_Spins? |
X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5
It is worth noting that many Europas in the stall (especially flaps down)
will drop a wing.
Some power pilots try to correct this with aileron which stalls the wing
further to a point where a spin is inevitable. Thereafter if the correct
recovery action (ie: full opposite rudder) isnt taken the aircraft may enter
into a spiral dive.
My initial flying was in gliders where spin training was mandatory, so it
never really bothered me.
When I did my PPL my instructor mentioned that spin training wasnt compulsory
but never the less, demonstrated several spins (in a Tomahawk !!!) and then
a spiral dive to show me the difference.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
I
----- Original Message -----
From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:45 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Spins
In a message dated 8/5/2008 3:01:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list@matronics.com writes:
Secondly - Stall and spin accidents on approach. Low down and in the
pattern, these are often fatal.
Hi John and All,
Adding to John's excellent commentary, over the years while I was operating
a glider tow club I took dozens and dozens of folks for glider rides. Many
of these folks were power only pilots and had never been in a glider before.
Personally, I like doing spins in gliders. Spins are a great way to get
down at the end of the day in a glider. Very often when doing rides I would
spin down if I had another pilot on board. Of course, I always ask if they
want to do a spin before I "show them their toes."
One of the things I've noticed when I've done spins with power only pilots,
and it's been almost universal, is power only pilots, unless they have
military training, seem to genuinely fear spins. I can see this fear from
the back seat when the pilot/passenger tightly grips hand holds in the
cockpit, or if they get really quiet just as you enter the spin. This is not
a good thing because if you fear something it usually means that you don't
understand it.
I believe the root of this fear is because spins, generally speaking, are
not taught in power planes and most pilots rarely, if ever, practice spins.
Student pilots are told what a spin is, how to recover, then are usually
told to avoid them. Stall/spin recovery is taught in gliders, though. Spin
training is also available in power planes.
I would suggest that anyone who is uncertain of, or anyone who has genuine
fear of spins, go take spin training and rid yourself of that fear. Most
glider schools offer spin training and most aerobatic flight instructors
also offer spin training. There are many bad habits pilots have in regard to
spins, particularly in terms of spin recovery. These bad habits, like trying
to stop the spin by applying opposite aileron, will make a bad situation
much worse when close to the ground. Pilots can avoid these bad habits with
the proper spin training. Everyone should learn the correct spin entry and
recovery techniques so well that they become second nature. It's just an
added arrow in your quiver of piloting skills and a skill that might one day
save your life.
Much like aerobatics, spins shouldn't be feared, unless, of course, you are
too close to the ground to recover. Like aerobatics and unusual attitude
recovery training, proper spin training will assist you in not ever putting
yourself into a position where a spin will kill you.
That's my 2 cents.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
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Message 12
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|
I would thoroughly concur. I did an =93unusual attitudes=94 course in
St
Augustine in an extra 300 and would thoroughly recommend it. great fun
and
huge confidence builder.
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 07:46
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Spins
In a message dated 8/5/2008 3:01:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
europa-list@matronics.com writes:
Secondly - Stall and spin accidents on approach. Low down and in the
pattern, these are often fatal.
Hi John and All,
Adding to John's excellent commentary, over the years while I was
operating
a glider tow club I took dozens and dozens of folks for glider rides.
Many
of these folks were power only pilots and had never been in a glider
before.
Personally, I like doing spins in gliders. Spins are a great way to get
down
at the end of the day in a glider. Very often when doing rides I would
spin
down if I had another pilot on board. Of course, I always ask if they
want
to do a spin before I "show them their toes."
One of the things I've noticed when I've done spins with power only
pilots,
and it's been almost universal, is power only pilots, unless they have
military training, seem to genuinely fear spins. I can see this fear
from
the back seat when the pilot/passenger tightly grips hand holds in the
cockpit, or if they get really quiet just as you enter the spin. This is
not
a good thing because if you fear something it usually means that you
don't
understand it.
I believe the root of this fear is because spins, generally speaking,
are
not taught in power planes and most pilots rarely, if ever, practice
spins.
Student pilots are told what a spin is, how to recover, then are usually
told to avoid them. Stall/spin recovery is taught in gliders, though.
Spin
training is also available in power planes.
I would suggest that anyone who is uncertain of, or anyone who has
genuine
fear of spins, go take spin training and rid yourself of that fear. Most
glider schools offer spin training and most aerobatic flight instructors
also offer spin training. There are many bad habits pilots have in
regard to
spins, particularly in terms of spin recovery. These bad habits, like
trying
to stop the spin by applying opposite aileron, will make a bad situation
much worse when close to the ground. Pilots can avoid these bad habits
with
the proper spin training. Everyone should learn the correct spin entry
and
recovery techniques so well that they become second nature. It's just an
added arrow in your quiver of piloting skills and a skill that might one
day
save your life.
Much like aerobatics, spins shouldn't be feared, unless, of course, you
are
too close to the ground to recover. Like aerobatics and unusual attitude
recovery training, proper spin training will assist you in not ever
putting
yourself into a position where a spin will kill you.
That's my 2 cents.
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
N245E - Flying
Checked by AVG.
04-Aug-08
19:23
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Can anyone in the USA sell me 4 Redux kits please?
Thanks
Will
Checked by AVG.
19:23
Message 14
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Hi William
"> I would thoroughly concur. I did an unusual attitudes course in St
> Augustine in an extra 300 and would thoroughly recommend it. great fun and
> huge confidence builder."
I agree that it is a great idea to get spin training first hand.
The only thing I would like to add is that just because you spun in a
plane many times does not mean you know exactly how the plane you are
flying may exactly react as far as spin entry and recovery???
Many know that with all other things the same (weight and air density) a
more aft CG will make spin entry easier and a spin harder to recover than
with a more forward CG.
Some know that with all other things the same (Air density and CG) the
heavier the weight of the aircraft spin entry will be easier and harder to
recover from a spin than in a lighter weight aircraft.
Fewer yet know that all other things the same (Weight and CG) that the
thinner the air spin entry will be easier and harder to recover from a
spin compared to flying in thicker air. Air will get thinner the higher
you go, the warmer the air, and the more moist the air is. If you know how
your airplane for a given CG and weight handles spin recovery with a
density altitude of 3K, it will most definite be far less forgiving with a
density altitude of 12K. Think about it, if you put an airspeed indicator
on the rudder measuring the rotational speed lets say it would normalize
at 20 knots (????). It would normalize at 20 knots with a density altitude
of 1K or 25K, its just at 25K you would be spinning like a pinwheel (much
faster RPM)! Add to equation that the rudder to stop the spin is airspeed
dependent as well and you should get the idea. If you added a more aft CG,
and more weight so the rotational inertia is greater you may very well
have a airplane that is in an unrecoverable spin.
You don't have to go to extremes, go on a trip and push weight to limit,
have CG pretty aft, and land at a high elevation airport, or even a lower
elevation airport but it is hot and humid and you have an airplane that
you may not know as intimate as you may think.
I spoke to a P-51 (the hot I think it was the G model) WW2 test pilot and
he spoke of his 2 weeks of testing by the book. His commander let him take
it up to fool around with after he did such a good job, but warned to not
break it. He rocketed up to ~ 20K to meet up with 2 other friends and
figured he would loop and meet them upside down. Horror set in when he was
going to meet nose to nose with him being upside down. He pulled on the
stick, stalled and entered a spin so fast he could not believe it. He did
many a spin, never that high. Spin was unrecoverable, he said he was
spinning so fast it was amazing. He decided at 8K to jump. He opened
canopy and unbuckled and when he stood on seat to get out plane, it began
to fly, so he got back in. His buddy was following him down and he was so
dizzy and disoriented he could not fly the plane. His buddy followed him
and told him what to do with controls for 20 or so minutes and he was then
able to land safely.
I am not mentioning this to scare anyone, just to bring awareness so you
are more confident to know how your plane might react configured in
conditions you never experienced before.
After Europa building often I go flying my model at night at the Local
High School. Often will get in many dozens of spins from high altitudes.
Sometimes the model for a given CG and weight would not even enter a spin,
sometimes it would just be wanting to spin and if you entered would be
unrecoverable and would make a hole in the ground. Elevation of field is
bout 80MSL. It was the thickness of air, hot and humid makes spin entry
very easy, cold and dry far harder. After learning plane and understanding
what was going on, I can adjust CG to make it perform as I want.
Ron Parigoris
Andy mentioned in a letter I saw some time ago that if you fly above 1370
up to 1450, limit CG less aft by 1" and less forward by 1". Probably not a
bad idea, but if you are at aft CG for 1370 and flying at 1525 you better
be on your best behavior. If you are flying into Denver at 1525 and 1370
aft CG when it is very hot and humid, better best your best behavior. Not
much different than flying a tailwheel sometimes, strong gusty cross from
right on hard runway comes to mind, if you don't let things get out of
hand things work out nicely. For those that things worked out nicely for,
I am sure they knew what they were in for, and compensated. Of course you
could try and avoid undesirable things as hard as you can, but be prepared
in case you must deal with.
Message 15
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Leaves me quite pensive given that our field is at 8500'. The instructors
won't do spins up here.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:44
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Spins
Hi William
"> I would thoroughly concur. I did an unusual attitudes course in St
> Augustine in an extra 300 and would thoroughly recommend it. great fun
and
> huge confidence builder."
I agree that it is a great idea to get spin training first hand.
The only thing I would like to add is that just because you spun in a
plane many times does not mean you know exactly how the plane you are
flying may exactly react as far as spin entry and recovery???
Many know that with all other things the same (weight and air density) a
more aft CG will make spin entry easier and a spin harder to recover than
with a more forward CG.
Some know that with all other things the same (Air density and CG) the
heavier the weight of the aircraft spin entry will be easier and harder to
recover from a spin than in a lighter weight aircraft.
Fewer yet know that all other things the same (Weight and CG) that the
thinner the air spin entry will be easier and harder to recover from a
spin compared to flying in thicker air. Air will get thinner the higher
you go, the warmer the air, and the more moist the air is. If you know how
your airplane for a given CG and weight handles spin recovery with a
density altitude of 3K, it will most definite be far less forgiving with a
density altitude of 12K. Think about it, if you put an airspeed indicator
on the rudder measuring the rotational speed lets say it would normalize
at 20 knots (????). It would normalize at 20 knots with a density altitude
of 1K or 25K, its just at 25K you would be spinning like a pinwheel (much
faster RPM)! Add to equation that the rudder to stop the spin is airspeed
dependent as well and you should get the idea. If you added a more aft CG,
and more weight so the rotational inertia is greater you may very well
have a airplane that is in an unrecoverable spin.
You don't have to go to extremes, go on a trip and push weight to limit,
have CG pretty aft, and land at a high elevation airport, or even a lower
elevation airport but it is hot and humid and you have an airplane that
you may not know as intimate as you may think.
I spoke to a P-51 (the hot I think it was the G model) WW2 test pilot and
he spoke of his 2 weeks of testing by the book. His commander let him take
it up to fool around with after he did such a good job, but warned to not
break it. He rocketed up to ~ 20K to meet up with 2 other friends and
figured he would loop and meet them upside down. Horror set in when he was
going to meet nose to nose with him being upside down. He pulled on the
stick, stalled and entered a spin so fast he could not believe it. He did
many a spin, never that high. Spin was unrecoverable, he said he was
spinning so fast it was amazing. He decided at 8K to jump. He opened
canopy and unbuckled and when he stood on seat to get out plane, it began
to fly, so he got back in. His buddy was following him down and he was so
dizzy and disoriented he could not fly the plane. His buddy followed him
and told him what to do with controls for 20 or so minutes and he was then
able to land safely.
I am not mentioning this to scare anyone, just to bring awareness so you
are more confident to know how your plane might react configured in
conditions you never experienced before.
After Europa building often I go flying my model at night at the Local
High School. Often will get in many dozens of spins from high altitudes.
Sometimes the model for a given CG and weight would not even enter a spin,
sometimes it would just be wanting to spin and if you entered would be
unrecoverable and would make a hole in the ground. Elevation of field is
bout 80MSL. It was the thickness of air, hot and humid makes spin entry
very easy, cold and dry far harder. After learning plane and understanding
what was going on, I can adjust CG to make it perform as I want.
Ron Parigoris
Andy mentioned in a letter I saw some time ago that if you fly above 1370
up to 1450, limit CG less aft by 1" and less forward by 1". Probably not a
bad idea, but if you are at aft CG for 1370 and flying at 1525 you better
be on your best behavior. If you are flying into Denver at 1525 and 1370
aft CG when it is very hot and humid, better best your best behavior. Not
much different than flying a tailwheel sometimes, strong gusty cross from
right on hard runway comes to mind, if you don't let things get out of
hand things work out nicely. For those that things worked out nicely for,
I am sure they knew what they were in for, and compensated. Of course you
could try and avoid undesirable things as hard as you can, but be prepared
in case you must deal with.
Checked by AVG.
19:23
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I have had the privilege of doing "unusual attitude recovery" training when
I lived in San Jose, CA in a Citabria with Amelia Reid. After 10 or so
different spins I was getting cocky. So she told me that she would enter the next
spin and for me to watch her recovery method. After three turns she fully
released all controls and the plane slowed out of the spin and simply remained
in
a shallow descent waiting for me to fly her home. So don't always think that
you are the one recovering the plane, it may be the plane recovering you.
So to those that have done spins in their Europas......what is it like? how
does it handle? any areas to stay away from?
The advice of keeping CG 1" closer to center from forward and rear when
fully loaded are the things that I look for.
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Jabiru 3300A
Sensenich R64Z N
Ground Adjustable Prop
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )
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Subject: | Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units |
I could have used this unit on the weekend, when a gusting crosswind
gave me a push from behind as I came over the numbers.
The groundspeed convinced me that my airspeed was way high, when the
the stall warner squealed it took a while for its warning to make it
through to my
brain, as at that point I was more concerned with tracking straight
and wondering why the end of the runway was getting closer so quickly.
Not one of my most elegant arrivals.
Rather than a polite lady's voice, at that point I probably needed an
instructors voice bellowing that " you are about to make a complete
cock up of this landing"
Dave
Do not archive
On 5-Aug-08, at 3:59 AM, Mark Burton wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> Although it is neither an AOA system or a stall warner, my SmartASS
> unit (www.smartavionics.com) will help the pilot to maintain a safe
> margin of speed above the stall on approach. I sincerely believe
> that if such a system had been in use, it may well have been
> sufficient to prevent some of the stall/spin on approach accidents
> that have occurred.
>
> With a SmartASS working in "speed director mode", on approach, a
> calm (female) voice talks to you about your speed. If the speed is
> about right, she occasionally, says "speed good". If the speed is
> wrong, she says "slow" (or "fast"), if the speed is very wrong, she
> says "very slow", (or "very fast"). The voice is normally not very
> intrusive. If the speed is insanely slow/fast you get a loud DING
> as well. The unit is G sensitive so it factors the vertical
> acceleration into the speed calculation so if you are pulling G, it
> reports slowness even if the actual airspeed is correct.
>
> When you start using the speed director it seems quite fussy,
> always telling you to slow down or speed up. But once you have
> flown a few approaches with it and smoothed out your flying it
> becomes completely normal to have this little voice in the
> background making comments and because you are used to listening
> and reacting to what she tells you (makes a change, eh?), you
> follow the suggestions and so the approach speed is maintained
> close to the chosen value with very little effort on the part of
> the pilot.
>
> The point I am making is that once you are used to using it, taking
> in and reacting to the information presented by the SmartASS
> becomes so easy it's almost subliminal. From a flight safety point
> of view, I believe that is good because it frees up some valuable
> pilot mental effort and allows the pilot to concentrate more on
> lookout/spatial awareness.
>
> A stall warning system is better than nothing because you may hear
> it and react, but then again, (when the pressure is on) you may not.
>
> I have not used an AOA system but I would expect with a good HUD
> they would be OK when the pilot is looking straight ahead. The
> audio option could be useful as long as the brain hasn't switched
> off due to overload.
>
> Mark
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196563#196563
>
>
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Maximum flap extension? |
Or not.
The mono is limited to 27 degrees of flap extension in order to prevent is
taking off before the controls are effective. Which confirms that more 27
degrees of flap extension is effective!
There is at least one trigear flying with more than the standard flap
movement (30+); this was achieved by a longer-stroke servo.
Theoretically, fowler flaps don't like more than about 30 degrees, although
G-YURO tested to more than this.
The non Mono Europa, which has its own speed break (the monowheel swing arm)
could certainly do with more drag at full flap. And sideslipping has little
effect!
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Maximum flap extension?
>
>
> As David says it should be 26-27 degrees. Mine ended up dead on 27.
>
> Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours
> Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
> e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
> or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Frans, For the XS mono kit 402 the manual says the aim is to get the flaps
> to extend to 26-27 degrees. The supplied Europa final inspection sheet
> stipulates minimum 25 and max 27 degrees. Hope this helps. regards, David
> Joyce
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
That mode of (slow) regulator failure is common. And not just on
Europas.
I have it creeping up on me too, but can confirm that the regulator does
not see more than 40C (as measured on the body of the regulator), except
perhaps after shutdown, at which time there would be no greater junction
temperature, which should be able to endure in excess of 100C . So the
failure mode may not necessarily be related to temperature.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Allsop
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator
Hi Steve,
My regulator is positioned on the firewall behind the plenum chamber,
without a heat sink. Last time he did an annual inspection Graham
Singleton looked at it oddly, and asked if I had experienced problems
with the regulator. Apparently overheating had been common problem. I
told him that I had not, and forgot about it.
Only last week I had a radio failure in flight. I noticed that the
voltage had dropped and returned to investigate. Sure enough, there was
no voltage from the Ducati regulator to the battery. After an hour or
two trying to prove to myself that I did not need to buy a new
regulator, I failed, and had to spend =A375 + del. to purchase a new
one.
Retrospectively, I can look back and recognise that the failure has
been taking place intermittently for more than a year. I can recall odd
times when the voltage had dropped, and I put it down to other things.
More recently it has taken a little time for the voltage to come up to
the charging level. It is a bit like old age, you begin to accept that
visiting the bathroom in the middle of the night is normal.
My recent investigations illustrate that there is quite a history
overheating problems with Ducati regulators. Hopefully the later models
have been improved. Certainly the back of my unit does not give a good
heat sink area. Despite this, the regulator has been installed and
working for over eight years.
This all leads me to suggest that you would be well advised to
position the regulator in a way which will minimise heating problems. A
good heat sink would be an advantage.
Hope this helps.
Bryan
> From: steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator
> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 19:33:01 +0100
>
<steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com>
>
> Dear All,
> I hope I am not repeating a thread but I would appreciate input from
the
> forum on where builders have positioned their regulators. My reason
for
> asking is that I may have an intermittent fault in the electrical
generation
> system and having done some fault tracing with Conrad Beale and
Skydrive it
> is pointing to the rectifier and the possibility that it has become
'cooked'
> and thus developed the intermittent workings.
> My fitment is on the flat above the pilot's footwell, but the
opinion
> expressed so far is that there is not enough air circulation to keep
it
> cool, especially after landing. I still have the side gills to the
top
> cowling.
> Thanks in anticipation.
> Steve Pitt
> G-SMDH Trigear XS.
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
>
&g===========
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Get more from your digital life. Find out how.
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
For what it's worth, I got John Wigney's rectifier/regulator when his
died and disected it. Only parts I could find bad were the two
rectifier diodes (MR2510) and they are directly mounted to the heat
sink. You can't repair though as the whole thing is potted and you
basically tear it up when you open it.......
I guess the answer is to watch Ebay for a cheap replacement.
Bill
A010 Classic Monowheel
60% Done 150% to go
----- Original Message -----
From: Duncan & Ami McFadyean
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator
That mode of (slow) regulator failure is common. And not just on
Europas.
I have it creeping up on me too, but can confirm that the regulator
does not see more than 40C (as measured on the body of the regulator),
except perhaps after shutdown, at which time there would be no greater
junction temperature, which should be able to endure in excess of 100C .
So the failure mode may not necessarily be related to temperature.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Allsop
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator
Hi Steve,
My regulator is positioned on the firewall behind the plenum
chamber, without a heat sink. Last time he did an annual inspection
Graham Singleton looked at it oddly, and asked if I had experienced
problems with the regulator. Apparently overheating had been common
problem. I told him that I had not, and forgot about it.
Only last week I had a radio failure in flight. I noticed that the
voltage had dropped and returned to investigate. Sure enough, there was
no voltage from the Ducati regulator to the battery. After an hour or
two trying to prove to myself that I did not need to buy a new
regulator, I failed, and had to spend =A375 + del. to purchase a new
one.
Retrospectively, I can look back and recognise that the failure has
been taking place intermittently for more than a year. I can recall odd
times when the voltage had dropped, and I put it down to other things.
More recently it has taken a little time for the voltage to come up to
the charging level. It is a bit like old age, you begin to accept that
visiting the bathroom in the middle of the night is normal.
My recent investigations illustrate that there is quite a history
overheating problems with Ducati regulators. Hopefully the later models
have been improved. Certainly the back of my unit does not give a good
heat sink area. Despite this, the regulator has been installed and
working for over eight years.
This all leads me to suggest that you would be well advised to
position the regulator in a way which will minimise heating problems. A
good heat sink would be an advantage.
Hope this helps.
Bryan
> From: steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator
> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 19:33:01 +0100
>
<steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com>
>
> Dear All,
> I hope I am not repeating a thread but I would appreciate input
from the
> forum on where builders have positioned their regulators. My
reason for
> asking is that I may have an intermittent fault in the electrical
generation
> system and having done some fault tracing with Conrad Beale and
Skydrive it
> is pointing to the rectifier and the possibility that it has
become 'cooked'
> and thus developed the intermittent workings.
> My fitment is on the flat above the pilot's footwell, but the
opinion
> expressed so far is that there is not enough air circulation to
keep it
> cool, especially after landing. I still have the side gills to the
top
> cowling.
> Thanks in anticipation.
> Steve Pitt
> G-SMDH Trigear XS.
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
>
&g===========
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Get more from your digital life. Find out how.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 21
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Subject: | Bose X Aviation Headset For Sale |
I have a nice Bose X Aviation headset for sale on e-Bay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=300247651009&rd=1
Happy bidding!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196714#196714
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Subject: | Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA warning units |
Hi! Dave.
On a light note in line with your "instructors voice" suggestion. There
is a voice option on some "Sat nav's" which is Ossie Osbourne's voice
with a few choice "F.....F.....'s" in the appropriate places. I'm sure
Mark's partner Helen wouldn't mind stepping her voice aside for the
Ossie option!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of david
miller
Sent: 05 August 2008 19:42
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Safety matters including stall and AOA
warning units
I could have used this unit on the weekend, when a gusting crosswind
gave me a push from behind as I came over the numbers.
The groundspeed convinced me that my airspeed was way high, when the
the stall warner squealed it took a while for its warning to make it
through to my
brain, as at that point I was more concerned with tracking straight
and wondering why the end of the runway was getting closer so quickly.
Not one of my most elegant arrivals.
Rather than a polite lady's voice, at that point I probably needed an
instructors voice bellowing that " you are about to make a complete
cock up of this landing"
Dave
Do not archive
On 5-Aug-08, at 3:59 AM, Mark Burton wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> Although it is neither an AOA system or a stall warner, my SmartASS
> unit (www.smartavionics.com) will help the pilot to maintain a safe
> margin of speed above the stall on approach. I sincerely believe
> that if such a system had been in use, it may well have been
> sufficient to prevent some of the stall/spin on approach accidents
> that have occurred.
>
> With a SmartASS working in "speed director mode", on approach, a
> calm (female) voice talks to you about your speed. If the speed is
> about right, she occasionally, says "speed good". If the speed is
> wrong, she says "slow" (or "fast"), if the speed is very wrong, she
> says "very slow", (or "very fast"). The voice is normally not very
> intrusive. If the speed is insanely slow/fast you get a loud DING
> as well. The unit is G sensitive so it factors the vertical
> acceleration into the speed calculation so if you are pulling G, it
> reports slowness even if the actual airspeed is correct.
>
> When you start using the speed director it seems quite fussy,
> always telling you to slow down or speed up. But once you have
> flown a few approaches with it and smoothed out your flying it
> becomes completely normal to have this little voice in the
> background making comments and because you are used to listening
> and reacting to what she tells you (makes a change, eh?), you
> follow the suggestions and so the approach speed is maintained
> close to the chosen value with very little effort on the part of
> the pilot.
>
> The point I am making is that once you are used to using it, taking
> in and reacting to the information presented by the SmartASS
> becomes so easy it's almost subliminal. From a flight safety point
> of view, I believe that is good because it frees up some valuable
> pilot mental effort and allows the pilot to concentrate more on
> lookout/spatial awareness.
>
> A stall warning system is better than nothing because you may hear
> it and react, but then again, (when the pressure is on) you may not.
>
> I have not used an AOA system but I would expect with a good HUD
> they would be OK when the pilot is looking straight ahead. The
> audio option could be useful as long as the brain hasn't switched
> off due to overload.
>
> Mark
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196563#196563
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
Mine failed just over 150 h. It's mounted inside the panel, to keep it out of the
heat of the engine. I really do not believe the error rate of this component
is environmental heat related. It's more of a quality issue. Some time ago there
was a similar thread, and if i remember correctly there was a German origin
alternative offered.
Anyhow, in my case there happened more then bargained for. The red lamp came during
flight, and shortly after a low voltage warning. Since i can switch everything
over to the second power system, i was not worried, and did the 3 hrs 30
mins leg to the rotax dealer as intended. There the engine was checked for damage
after the wheel up landing, and i mentioned the probable regulator failure.
However, the charge lamp was and stayed out. During the test flight thereafter
i noticed that there was still no charge. My assumption was that the red lamp
had burned out, and that everything would be fine after i would have replaced
the regulator. That assessment was wrong, as later turned out. After about
one hour in the next flight, smoke appeared in the cockpit, and i asked for an
immediate landing at a nearby airport. In the 5 minutes it took to land the
plane, the smoke started to vanish. The smell was something i had smelled before,
but could not immediately place. Examination sho
wed that the large smoothing capacitor had cooked itself empty.
The sequence of events has been, that this regulator developed a fault, and put
AC current to the battery and capacitor. After a while the 30 amp battery fuse
had blown, with the result that the charge control lamp does not light. After
that fuse had blown, the full AC power of the charging coils was released on
the capacitor, which gave way, causing an emergency landing.
Lessons learned: Do not keep flying with a red lamp on. Do not assume anything,
check and correct before the next flight. Having an alternative system is great,
but creates overconfidence on the downside.
Question unanswered: There is text on the regulator: Do not take the battery off
line with a running engine. If you look at the Rotax manual, that is exactly
what the main switch or contactor does. Maybe the regulator blew up dangerously
when i tried to recycle the main switch. Also a blown battery fuse takes the
battery off line. On the other hand, there is no fuse in the charge coil circuit.
In this case, the connector shows melting marks, and solder has dripped
from the one of the AC connector tabs.
In other words: There is no protection from defect rectifiers in the regulator.
IMHO there should be a fuse in the circuit too. Unless i get contradictionary
information, that fuse will be there after the next service stop.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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Subject: | Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
Bill Henderson a crit :
> For what it's worth, I got John Wigney's rectifier/regulator when his
> died and disected it. Only parts I could find bad were the two
> rectifier diodes (MR2510) and they are directly mounted to the heat
> sink. You can't repair though as the whole thing is potted and you
> basically tear it up when you open it.......
>
Hi all,
For what it's worth, I made some investigation with the help of a
friend, and opened a few failed Rotax regulators.
It appears that the more power you draw from the regulator, the higher
the junction temperature, and the more likely the failure.
Bob Nuckolls provides a nice circuit proposition for the Rotax
alternator/regulator, with overvoltage protection.
I personnally would and did shun the Rotax circuit proposition.
Also, I would like to point out that the alarm lamp is driven by the
regulator, and so can't be expected to provide any degree of protection.
Some pictures and thermal info here
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 25
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Subject: | Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
Gilles
that study was fascinating! Thank you.
Graham
GTH wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> For what it's worth, I made some investigation with the help of a
> friend, and opened a few failed Rotax regulators.
> It appears that the more power you draw from the regulator, the higher
> the junction temperature, and the more likely the failure.
>
> Bob Nuckolls provides a nice circuit proposition for the Rotax
> alternator/regulator, with overvoltage protection.
> I personnally would and did shun the Rotax circuit proposition.
>
> Also, I would like to point out that the alarm lamp is driven by the
> regulator, and so can't be expected to provide any degree of protection.
>
> Some pictures and thermal info here
> http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
>
> Best regards,
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