---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/07/08: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:18 AM - Re: Maximum flap extension? (craig bastin) 2. 02:19 AM - Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! (craig bastin) 3. 03:17 AM - Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator (GTH) 4. 03:17 AM - Tankosh 2009 anyone? (William Harrison) 5. 04:56 AM - Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator (josok) 6. 05:03 AM - Re: Rough River (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 7. 07:05 AM - Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator (Jan de Jong) 8. 07:34 AM - Re: sight tube (Greg Fuchs) 9. 07:40 AM - Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! (Roger Lee) 10. 09:56 AM - Re: stalling & AOA's (EMAproducts@aol.com) 11. 11:10 AM - Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator (josok) 12. 12:06 PM - Re: Tankosh 2009 anyone? (A B Milne) 13. 12:38 PM - Re: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator (Charlie Laverty) 14. 02:33 PM - Re: Ducati Rectifier/Regulator (GTH) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:12 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Maximum flap extension? "That said my partner Wayne built a model of the Europa XS in X-Plane. One mode is you can display dynamic arrows of stress. You can not believe how rapid the stresses on the outboard section of the wing grow when you exceed maximum flap extension speed! It begins that with full flaps the tip of the wing is lifting a little, then with increased speed the inboard section of the wing is lifting so much it requires that you lower the nose, then the outboard section of the wing now is creating negative lift and then if you increase speed further, the stresses look downright scary!" I seem to recall a few incidents/accidents with high wing ultralights that have the covered wings and a main support brace about half way along the wing, where a reduction in VNE was mandated. They were getting into the same area as the simulations suggest here where the outer half of the wing was generating negative lift to such an extent it was breaking the back of the wing with no warning. Knowing that i wouldnt be messing with it unless you have a degree in engineering and KNOW the loads are ok (maybe you do if so tinker away) its not worth wrecking you plane over a few Knots of approach speed IMHO craig Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:19:46 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! Problem we have in australia is almost all the 91 now has 10% ethanol in it. The 95 is largely ethanol free and only a few cents a litre more than the 91, and that sure is a lot cheaper than 100ll -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Roger Lee Sent: Thursday, 7 August 2008 10:42 AM Subject: Europa-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! If you are happy with just 100LL stop here. You won't like where this is going. This effects us all even in other countries because one tends to follow the other at some point. If you are tired of someone saying we can't have 91 octane, read on. It's time to pick a side and take 5 minutes to email. Our lives as people are good because someone didn't just say ok. Some took the time to make change and made it better for all of us. If we choose to sit on the sideline and just go along then we deserve what we get. I would implore all to take a minute and email these two people and any other fuel administrator in other companies. I will post on as many aviation websites as possible and I would you all to pick a side and stand up to be heard and maybe, just maybe we might effect change. I for one don't want to roll over. You are about to read a bulletin about the use of Chevron ground fuel verses aviation fuel. Then I have a response. Don't sit back and pick my memo apart, use that time to write your own and be heard. Post this on all your aviation websites. Let them hear a nation wide voice. Send your emails to: LIMG(at)chevron.com kayalbitz(at)chevron.com or any other fuel company administrator. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197010#197010 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/2008_04_2008_04_bulletin_2008_04_chevron_ position_autogas_for_aviation_use_613.pdf http://forums.matronics.com//files/ryan_memo_768.doc Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 5:54 AM ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:17:35 AM PST US From: GTH Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator josok a crit : > > Gilles, > > With all respect to your students work, it's always a good idea to check if the numbers add up. From the top of my head, with (low quality) thyristor junction loss of 0.6 V at 20 A makes for 12 watts to dissipate, not 80 as "actually measured". Add 10 watts for the rest of the components and we are still far from the "actual measured" figure. Common sense also tells me that 80 watts dissipation would make this item scalding hot in minutes. 20 W also is more in line with the Rotax idea of ambient temperature. Where is the mistake? > > Josok and all, When I was working on our project some years ago, there was a lot of hangar tales about the Rotax regulator and wiring. The only hard fact I could rely upon was that several of my buddies, and some Europa builders experienced failures, and that the Rotax 914 was electrically dependent. This is why I started some investigations concerning the unit and designed some redundancy into the wiring. Among other things we dicovered : - The efficiency of the unit is not great, and its thermal characteristics are poor - Cooling will definitely improve matters. - The unit wont start to life unless the c wire senses some voltage, so there are failure modes where the regulator will stall and stop supplying current to the ship, rendering the Rotax circuit suggestion unsuitable for the 914. - Asking more than 12 amps continuous from the unit seems not reasonable. The numbers have been actually measured, in a very well known and reputable electricity lab (LEG and IUT 1 in Grenoble) with professional equipment. The numbers you give seem remarkably low, so maybe the unit you measured is a different model ? Rotax may have modified his regulator, after all... Of course, everyone is invited to check the numbers and facts, and I would be glad to publish the results of other experiments to complement the article. Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:17:36 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Europa-List: Tankosh 2009 anyone? >> Anyone up for a Europa trip to Tankosh next year? Dates don't seem >> to have been announced but on past form it is typically the third >> week of July. Maybe anyone whose been before could suggest the do's and don'ts? Willie Harrison G-BZNY ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator From: "josok" Giles, As usual a long answer, and not very much to the point. it was to be expected. The results you publish were first from investigations by your students, now from a professional laboratory. Students working in a professional laboratory, and publishing numbers without proper checking? The numbers do not add up. 80 watts loss seems to be impossible, both from what's put in and from what comes out. 80 watts on such a small unit can never be dissipated. Not even when adding a small fan Nobody can really expect that -59 a ambient temperature is a reasonable figure either. In short: These are the numbers you published and they can not be true, they do not even come close. Did somebody put a comma in the wrong place? The general picture from what others about cooling and load of the unit, the poor reliability of the unit is not heat related. It's just a poor quality item. IMHO no use to find cooler spots or start adding fans with their own reliability and fire-hazard problems. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:23 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: Rough River In a message dated 8/7/2008 3:07:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list@matronics.com writes: So far I have the following folks as attendees for the fly in. For anyone else attending could you please let me know so I can communicate it to everyone. Hi Paul, I'll be there with N245E, weather permitting. I've already got a room reserved at the lodge at Rough River for Saturday night. See you in September. Regards, John Lawton Whitwell, TN (TN89) N245E - Flying **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:29 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator Jos, While 80W seems excessive conduction by a silicon diode and thyristor in series could easily drop 2.5V making for 50W at 20A? Cheers, Jan de Jong ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:41 AM PST US From: "Greg Fuchs " Subject: RE: Europa-List: sight tube Craig, You might already be aware of this, but in my judgement, the shifting problem is not related to the EFIS, but is an artifact coming from the capacitance sensor, based on fuel type. Interesting that they mentioned it would work with the capacitance probes. Did they ever tell you that it can handle a 0-5V input (or at least a voltage input range)? It would be nice to know if this is the case, since then the Odyssey could be used to compensate for the fuel usage linearity issue if someone were to go the pressure sensor/amplifier route. The Odyssey has two fuel inputs. Each one could have a different transfer curve (would need to check, to be absolutely sure). If you are only using one cap probe, you should be able to switch back and forth between the two inputs, depending on which type of fuel you are using. This would handle two of the 3 conditions conditions anyway ( such as a full tank of AVGAS or one of Mogas10%). It would require operator intervention, though, to manually make the switch based on the condition. Mogas fuel with ethanol should have a higher conductance than without. I assume it is the conductivity change that affects the capacitance probe measurement. If this was the case, then I suppose someone could do some testing on mogas (and avgas, to see if it is the same as non-ethanol mogas), and come up with a graph of conductivity vs. fuel type. Using this info, that other circuit you are talking about might be able to dynamically change its output based on conductance, and feed this to the EFIS, which will further process the tanks non-linearity. It might only take a small proportional shift to do the job, but would depend on the tests. It is nice to know the Odyssey might handle the voltage input. I hope that is the case. Let me know if they gave you more info on this. Regards, Greg _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 2:24 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: sight tube Greg > I was told it would work fine with the capacitance type sender but readings will vary >depending on fuel type used, which i believe has been covered quite a bit here already. It is possible though that the distributor has it wrong. One thing i was considering was another circuit between the EFIS and my capacitance sender so i can calibrate the sender to the fuel type to get a more accurate reading depending on AVGAS / MOGAS / Blend of the two contents in the tank itself. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs Sent: Tuesday, 5 August 2008 2:34 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: sight tube Yes, it looks like I would be able to use the same input conditioning for an EFIS that you used for the PIC. I would need both the 12V regulator (sensor and Burr-Brown amp) and 5 volt regulator to use the clamping diodes. I looked up info on the Odyssey again, and it will handle up to two tank inputs, but it wants resistive inputs to its engine management system. Remembering back, this is another reason I went with a standard float type sensor. That said, I think an analog fuel level gauge would look nice (and fit) on the center console, close to the fuel valve. Could simplify, and get rid of the clamp circuit. Linearity of fuel used might be my only problem then, and that is where reverting back to the PIC circuitry may have to happen. Chasing my tail in this paragraph. :-) If I had stuck with the Dynon EFIS idea, it would have made this part easier. Greg F _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Krzyzewski Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 4:44 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: sight tube > My current plan is to go with an MGL Avionics Odyssey. I bet I can take the > sensor output and slightly re-scale it to match the Odyssey input needed, > but have not looked at it yet. If you are using a system that a 0-5v input and has it's own scaling capability (such as the Dynon) then all you need is the power supply, pressure transducer, amplifier and clamping diode part of my circuit. I'd just add a 22k ohm resistor in the output line to limit the current. Fill the tank and then adjust the potentiometer on the amplifier to give you 5v at the input of your instrument. Once you have done that you can follow the linearisation process provided by the instrument manufacturer. Tony href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:45 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! From: "Roger Lee" Hi Everyone, Every website I posted on and I sent the letters to Flight Design have people speaking up in support. I have received dozens of emails in support and that is just since last night. One voice will dye, but thousands may be heard. Everyone, Don't sit ideally and complain. 1-2 minutes of your time is all anyone is asking. It's your future and your time to offer your hand in a worthwhile effort to help shape it. Do it for yourself if not for anyone else. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197124#197124 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:42 AM PST US From: EMAproducts@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: stalling & AOA's For all interested Just one more comment on AOA's. IF one pays attention and does not get below 1.3 Vs in configuration you WILL NOT stall. The greatest advantage of the AOA is that it is correct for all conditions. I know that a large percentage of pilots cannot tell me the best approach speed difference from 1 person low fuel; 2 persons low fuel; and at Gross weight. Many will say so what, If you expect your aircraft to perform at its optimum these are critical. Do you float on landing? Nearly all pilots I have instructed over the years when at a light weight will come in at same speed as when at gross weight. Then they wonder why they float. The AOA will keep you at the correct speed if you follow it. Remember if the Smart*ss version was perfect there would be no stall spin accidents, and as the Wright brothers said in 1913 an warning could prevent 90 percent of these stall spin accidents. The percentage of stall spin accidents has not changed much 105 years later. Needless fatalities and injuries and broken airplanes due to education of causes. Ask any Navy or Marine carrier pilot about AOA ! Thanks to those who responded positively about the AOA usage and safety. Elbie Mendenhall **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator From: "josok" Hi Jan, Glad that somebody is thinking at least :-) Thanks for that. The voltage drop over a junction in any modern semiconductor is never more then 0.6 V. Specialized switching stuff scores better. But let's assume for the case that Ducati saved a few pennies. So worst case here is one diode and one thyristor conducting, makes 2 x 0.6 = 1.2 V (The other pair is off) To get 80 watts you would need .... 80/1,2=67 A ! Conclusion: Nonsense offered with the aura of a proper investigation. Misleading heat camera pictures too. The red color is evenly, which is very good in fact, but there should have been a color to temperature scale. Without that scale, the "red hot" regulator could in fact be a mere 30 degrees. Now let's talk about global warming (but not in this forum) :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:56 PM PST US From: "A B Milne" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tankosh 2009 anyone? Interested. Please keep me posted Alasdair Milne ----- Original Message ----- From: William Harrison To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:14 AM Subject: Europa-List: Tankosh 2009 anyone? Anyone up for a Europa trip to Tankosh next year? Dates don't seem to have been announced but on past form it is typically the third week of July. Maybe anyone whose been before could suggest the do's and don'ts? Willie Harrison G-BZNY ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:43 PM PST US From: "Charlie Laverty" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator Hi Graham Can you send your web address so we can let you have some photos of the latest drain on the laverty millions? Gi Regards Charlie. llian King ( Laverty) and Charlie Laverty Forest Bank 19 Argyll Terrace Tobermory PA75 6PB Tel 01688 301264 gillian.king3@virgin.net charleslaverty@googlemail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 12:09 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator > > > Gilles > that study was fascinating! Thank you. > Graham > > GTH wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> For what it's worth, I made some investigation with the help of a friend, >> and opened a few failed Rotax regulators. >> It appears that the more power you draw from the regulator, the higher >> the junction temperature, and the more likely the failure. >> >> Bob Nuckolls provides a nice circuit proposition for the Rotax >> alternator/regulator, with overvoltage protection. >> I personnally would and did shun the Rotax circuit proposition. >> >> Also, I would like to point out that the alarm lamp is driven by the >> regulator, and so can't be expected to provide any degree of protection. >> >> Some pictures and thermal info here >> http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php >> >> Best regards, > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:47 PM PST US From: GTH Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ducati Rectifier/Regulator Josok, I'm so sorry you're having problems with what some of us may have to say about technique and measurements. You are entitled to any opinions you may have about technique, electricity, cooling, pilotage, carburator linkage or whatever. And so is any of us. > As usual a long answer, and not very much to the point. it was to be expected. The results you publish were first from investigations by your students, now from a professional laboratory. Students working in a professional laboratory, and publishing numbers without proper checking? > In France, university laboratories are encouraged to work for the industry. As for the students, would the phD of some of them be considered suitable for the simple thermal measurements they made ? > they can not be true, they do not even come close. Josok, close to what ? To your own measured loss numbers ? Or to what you *believe* these numbers should be ? > the poor reliability of the unit is not heat related. Understand. > It's just a poor quality item. Hmm. > IMHO no use to find cooler spots or start adding fans with their own reliability and fire-hazard problems By the way, what is your proposition ? I really can't help you, since I'm not the one with the failed regulator and messed up circuit ;-) Best regards, -- Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.