Today's Message Index:
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1. 10:23 AM - Re: Carriage of Petrol (Bryan Allsop)
2. 02:03 PM - Re: Carriage of Petrol (Steve Pitt)
3. 03:35 PM - Re: Trim Tab Aileron Questions. (steve v)
Message 1
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Subject: | Carriage of Petrol |
I rest my case!
Bryan
From: ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Re
: Europa-List: Carriage of PetrolDate: Mon=2C 11 Aug 2008 22:30:12 +0100
The "5p" offers are usually limited to 100 litres=2C and the pumps turn off
after 3 minutes=2C so one needs to be quick!
Duncan McF.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Allsop
Sent: Monday=2C August 11=2C 2008 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Carriage of Petrol
Notice that it is the Sainsbury's and Tesco's who are the main problem. I w
onder if the rules come from the "5 pence off per litre" promotions they ca
rry out from time to time. I can imagine some members of the public turning
up with all sorts of containers to stock up for when the promotion finishe
s. I can see that management would have to give some guidance to staff. It
is unlikely that they would have have concerned themselves with Europa flie
rs.We will have to use the local outfits who welcome our business. It will
still be a lot cheaper than avgas!Bryan
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Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Carriage of Petrol |
I said that I would give feedback to my investigations.
I spoke and wrote to the West Sussex Trading Standards who have since
written and signed a letter to me. They could not have been more
understanding and tried to help. They said I could advise the group of
the contents of the letter.
Frank Mycroft set out the 'legal' position which is from a Health and
Safety Executive circular in December 1997 and reviewed May 2003, so I
will not repeat this. However I subsequently found another circular from
the HSE dated August 2006 addressed to Local Authorities relating to
Petrol Stations. In this document is Section 3.3 which states : "
...petroleum spirit shall only be dispensed into the fuel tank of an
internal combustion engine, or into a suitable container. Any container
used for this purpose shall immediately be securely closed and removed
from the licensed premises or kept in a safe place".
In section 1.12 a suitable container is described as:
"1.12 Suitable container means: -
a.. a metal container satisfying the constructional and labelling
requirements of the Petroleum-Spirit (Motor Vehicles etc) Regulations
1929; or
b.. a plastic container satisfying the constructional and labelling
requirements of the Petroleum-Spirit (Plastic Containers) Regulations
1982; or
c.. a demountable fuel tank of a motor boat or similar vessel; or
d.. a United Nations approved container for the carriage of petrol. "
I tried to establish what constitutes the United Nations standards but
could not find the appropriate guidance within their records. However
HSE Circular CDG 2007 on packaging has the following:
"Approved packaging
9. In most cases (the main exemption being limited quantities)
packaging has to be certified to UN standards. The international
agreements for the carriage of dangerous goods require packaging to be
of a design-type certified by a national competent authority. This
involves testing the packaging to ensure its suitability for the
carriage of certain dangerous goods. Such packaging's are often referred
to as "type-approved" or "UN certified". Such packaging is marked in
particular ways, prefixed by the UN logo and followed by codes, the
details of which may be found in part 6 of ADR.
10. For the example given above, P001 shows that a "steel non-removable
head drum" (a conventional drum with small openings) is coded "1A1". Its
marking might be :
1A1/Y1.6/270/**/GB/****
This is interpreted as follows (see ADR 6.1.3.1)
a.. 1A1 steel non-removable head drum
b.. Y for PG II, III
c.. 1.6 maximum relative density (formerly specific gravity) of
contents. Not needed if 1.2 or less
d.. 270 Test pressure of drum in kPa
e.. ** last two digits of year of manufacture
f.. GB country of certification
g.. abcd represents the number of the certificate (in GB this is all
figures) "
My metal 20 litre jerry can contains most of the above references -it
appears to have been produced for the German market as I found
references to the markings in their BAM website. However, my plastic
container, purchased at North Weald Aerofair a couple of years ago, does
not although it is clearly marked for petroleum use, is produced in
Canada and complies with New Zealand and Australian standards.
In the letter from Trading Standards is the statement "... it is not an
offence to allow a customer to purchase more than this amount ( sic 15
litres), provided they are satisfied the fuel will not be stored and you
are using the appropriate container.
Persons buying more than 15 litres of petrol for use in, e.g. race cars,
...aircraft or boats, must use properly constructed and marked
containers which are properly sealed. They must not store or keep this
petrol."
This letter was a copy of that sent to petrol licensees just last week
in West Sussex as there had been a concern that hoarding of petrol was
starting to happen given the rise in price.
To summarise:
1) Most of the legislation is old or out of date
2) It is not illegal for us to buy petroleum for our aircraft subject to
the containers we use (not even 20 litre cans)
3) It is not an offence for petrol stations to sell the fuel to us
subject to sensible questioning of the reasons for containers being
used.
4) Local Trading Standards are not wishing to block our legitimate
purchase of petrol
5) However garages do have the right to refuse a sale whether into a car
or fuel jerry cans.
Accordingly, be prepared for scrutiny, perhaps get to know where you are
purchasing from and introduce yourselves to the proprietor. Anyone worth
his salt will be only too happy to sell 60 plus litres of fuel to us.
Perhaps contacting your own Trading Standards for a letter to carry
around might be worthwhile. At least it shows that we too can have
official looking document to wave around._
I hope this has been of use.
Regards
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH
PS This is what comes of being retired and the weather being too poor
for flying.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Allsop
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Carriage of Petrol
I rest my case!
Bryan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carriage of Petrol
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:30:12 +0100
The "5p" offers are usually limited to 100 litres, and the pumps turn
off after 3 minutes, so one needs to be quick!
Duncan McF.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Allsop
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Carriage of Petrol
Notice that it is the Sainsbury's and Tesco's who are the main problem.
I wonder if the rules come from the "5 pence off per litre" promotions
they carry out from time to time. I can imagine some members of the
public turning up with all sorts of containers to stock up for when the
promotion finishes. I can see that management would have to give some
guidance to staff. It is unlikely that they would have have concerned
themselves with Europa fliers.We will have to use the local outfits who
welcome our business. It will still be a lot cheaper than avgas!Bryan
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Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Trim Tab Aileron Questions. |
ok, thanks for the feedback , ill try & experiment with that idea as well graham,
many thanks,
steve.
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