---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/12/08: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:23 AM - Re: Carriage of Petrol (Bryan Allsop) 2. 02:03 PM - Re: Carriage of Petrol (Steve Pitt) 3. 03:35 PM - Re: Trim Tab Aileron Questions. (steve v) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:05 AM PST US From: Bryan Allsop Subject: RE: Europa-List: Carriage of Petrol I rest my case! Bryan From: ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.ukTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Re : Europa-List: Carriage of PetrolDate: Mon=2C 11 Aug 2008 22:30:12 +0100 The "5p" offers are usually limited to 100 litres=2C and the pumps turn off after 3 minutes=2C so one needs to be quick! Duncan McF. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Allsop Sent: Monday=2C August 11=2C 2008 5:37 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Carriage of Petrol Notice that it is the Sainsbury's and Tesco's who are the main problem. I w onder if the rules come from the "5 pence off per litre" promotions they ca rry out from time to time. I can imagine some members of the public turning up with all sorts of containers to stock up for when the promotion finishe s. I can see that management would have to give some guidance to staff. It is unlikely that they would have have concerned themselves with Europa flie rs.We will have to use the local outfits who welcome our business. It will still be a lot cheaper than avgas!Bryan Your PC=2C mobile phone=2C and online services work together like never bef ornew'>See how Windows=AE fits your life href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _________________________________________________________________ Get more from your digital life. Find out how. http://www.windowslive.com/default.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Home2_082008 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:48 PM PST US From: "Steve Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carriage of Petrol I said that I would give feedback to my investigations. I spoke and wrote to the West Sussex Trading Standards who have since written and signed a letter to me. They could not have been more understanding and tried to help. They said I could advise the group of the contents of the letter. Frank Mycroft set out the 'legal' position which is from a Health and Safety Executive circular in December 1997 and reviewed May 2003, so I will not repeat this. However I subsequently found another circular from the HSE dated August 2006 addressed to Local Authorities relating to Petrol Stations. In this document is Section 3.3 which states : " ...petroleum spirit shall only be dispensed into the fuel tank of an internal combustion engine, or into a suitable container. Any container used for this purpose shall immediately be securely closed and removed from the licensed premises or kept in a safe place". In section 1.12 a suitable container is described as: "1.12 Suitable container means: - a.. a metal container satisfying the constructional and labelling requirements of the Petroleum-Spirit (Motor Vehicles etc) Regulations 1929; or b.. a plastic container satisfying the constructional and labelling requirements of the Petroleum-Spirit (Plastic Containers) Regulations 1982; or c.. a demountable fuel tank of a motor boat or similar vessel; or d.. a United Nations approved container for the carriage of petrol. " I tried to establish what constitutes the United Nations standards but could not find the appropriate guidance within their records. However HSE Circular CDG 2007 on packaging has the following: "Approved packaging 9. In most cases (the main exemption being limited quantities) packaging has to be certified to UN standards. The international agreements for the carriage of dangerous goods require packaging to be of a design-type certified by a national competent authority. This involves testing the packaging to ensure its suitability for the carriage of certain dangerous goods. Such packaging's are often referred to as "type-approved" or "UN certified". Such packaging is marked in particular ways, prefixed by the UN logo and followed by codes, the details of which may be found in part 6 of ADR. 10. For the example given above, P001 shows that a "steel non-removable head drum" (a conventional drum with small openings) is coded "1A1". Its marking might be : 1A1/Y1.6/270/**/GB/**** This is interpreted as follows (see ADR 6.1.3.1) a.. 1A1 steel non-removable head drum b.. Y for PG II, III c.. 1.6 maximum relative density (formerly specific gravity) of contents. Not needed if 1.2 or less d.. 270 Test pressure of drum in kPa e.. ** last two digits of year of manufacture f.. GB country of certification g.. abcd represents the number of the certificate (in GB this is all figures) " My metal 20 litre jerry can contains most of the above references -it appears to have been produced for the German market as I found references to the markings in their BAM website. However, my plastic container, purchased at North Weald Aerofair a couple of years ago, does not although it is clearly marked for petroleum use, is produced in Canada and complies with New Zealand and Australian standards. In the letter from Trading Standards is the statement "... it is not an offence to allow a customer to purchase more than this amount ( sic 15 litres), provided they are satisfied the fuel will not be stored and you are using the appropriate container. Persons buying more than 15 litres of petrol for use in, e.g. race cars, ...aircraft or boats, must use properly constructed and marked containers which are properly sealed. They must not store or keep this petrol." This letter was a copy of that sent to petrol licensees just last week in West Sussex as there had been a concern that hoarding of petrol was starting to happen given the rise in price. To summarise: 1) Most of the legislation is old or out of date 2) It is not illegal for us to buy petroleum for our aircraft subject to the containers we use (not even 20 litre cans) 3) It is not an offence for petrol stations to sell the fuel to us subject to sensible questioning of the reasons for containers being used. 4) Local Trading Standards are not wishing to block our legitimate purchase of petrol 5) However garages do have the right to refuse a sale whether into a car or fuel jerry cans. Accordingly, be prepared for scrutiny, perhaps get to know where you are purchasing from and introduce yourselves to the proprietor. Anyone worth his salt will be only too happy to sell 60 plus litres of fuel to us. Perhaps contacting your own Trading Standards for a letter to carry around might be worthwhile. At least it shows that we too can have official looking document to wave around._ I hope this has been of use. Regards Steve Pitt G-SMDH PS This is what comes of being retired and the weather being too poor for flying. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Allsop To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:21 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Carriage of Petrol I rest my case! Bryan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carriage of Petrol Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:30:12 +0100 The "5p" offers are usually limited to 100 litres, and the pumps turn off after 3 minutes, so one needs to be quick! Duncan McF. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Allsop To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:37 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Carriage of Petrol Notice that it is the Sainsbury's and Tesco's who are the main problem. I wonder if the rules come from the "5 pence off per litre" promotions they carry out from time to time. I can imagine some members of the public turning up with all sorts of containers to stock up for when the promotion finishes. I can see that management would have to give some guidance to staff. It is unlikely that they would have have concerned themselves with Europa fliers.We will have to use the local outfits who welcome our business. It will still be a lot cheaper than avgas!Bryan ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Your PC, mobile phone, and online services work together like never befornew'>See how Windows=AE fits your life href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get more from your digital life. Find out how. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 19 AM ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:35:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trim Tab Aileron Questions. From: "steve v " ok, thanks for the feedback , ill try & experiment with that idea as well graham, many thanks, steve. 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