Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:33 AM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Fw=3A_Fire_extinguishers? (Carl Pattinson)
2. 01:16 AM - Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers (Frans Veldman)
3. 01:16 AM - Re: CS10 rivet hole positions (flyingphil2)
4. 01:42 AM - Re: CS10 rivet hole positions (Rowland & Wilma Carson)
5. 01:52 AM - Re: CS10 rivet hole positions (Rowland & Wilma Carson)
6. 02:20 AM - Re: Re: fire extinguisher (Ivor Phillips)
7. 02:26 AM - Re: CS10 rivet hole positions (flyingphil2)
8. 03:48 AM - fire extinguishers (danny shepherd)
9. 03:50 AM - Re: Fw: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? (Rowland & Wilma Carson)
10. 03:59 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers (Raimo Toivio)
11. 05:01 AM - Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? (William Harrison)
12. 05:22 AM - Re: Manifold Pressure Gauge (Raimo Toivio)
13. 05:36 AM - Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? (Raimo Toivio)
14. 06:04 AM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (josok)
15. 06:08 AM - tie bar/W34 holes (William Daniell)
16. 06:41 AM - Classic stall characteristics (zwakie)
17. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers (Frans Veldman)
18. 07:29 AM - Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers (Frans Veldman)
19. 07:33 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (Frans Veldman)
20. 07:36 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (David Buckley)
21. 07:47 AM - FW: Old Sarum Fly in (G-IANI)
22. 08:53 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
23. 08:57 AM - This gaping hole (nose gear) (Frans Veldman)
24. 09:09 AM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (josok)
25. 09:24 AM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (Frans Veldman)
26. 09:48 AM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Classic_stall_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?characteristics? (Carl Pattinson)
27. 10:02 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (Graham Singleton)
28. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Classic stall characteristics (David Buckley)
29. 10:33 AM - Re: Inspector Signing Required for CANADIAN Builders MOD 73+74? (Christoph Both)
30. 11:04 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (zwakie)
31. 11:09 AM - Re: Rough River (sldpileit@aol.com)
32. 01:18 PM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (josok)
33. 01:59 PM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (Frans Veldman)
34. 02:05 PM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Classic_stall_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?characteristics? (Carl Pattinson)
35. 02:34 PM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Classic_stall_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?characteristics? (Carl Pattinson)
36. 03:47 PM - Re: Re: Classic stall characteristics (craig bastin)
37. 04:40 PM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (zwakie)
38. 11:24 PM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (josok)
Message 1
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| Subject: | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Fw=3A_Fire_extinguishers? |
X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5
Just a personal opinion but I would have thought that a CO2 extinguisher
would be an acceptable substitute. You can pick up a new 2kg model for about
=A330 on ebay. Weight not ideal but better than nothing I would have
thought.
The problem with all extinguishers is that they are designed to cut off the
oxygen supply to the fire but would also cut off the occupants oxygen
supply. Fact is any extinguisher in the air is going to cause problems.
If there was an engine fire a CO2 extinguisher could be discharged in the
engine bay and would be very effective. In the cockpit is another matter.
----- Original Message -----
From: Duncan & Ami McFadyean
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:35 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers
Fowarded from Dave Watts:
Halon fire extinguishers can be bought in the UK from Light Aero Spare
www.lasaero.com
They are expensive but are the only suitable extinguisher for use in the
air.
Dave Watts
G-BXDY
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers |
I'm following this subject with interest.
I thought that the general consensus is that we try to avoid putting
unneccesary weight in our little aircrafts. How usefull is a fire
extinguisher actually? We are smart enough to only use uncombustible
materials in the cabin, right? We use teflon insulated wire's, right? We
only perform non-smoking-flights, right? So how do people actually
imagine a fire starting in the cabin?
Now I know a risk: the fuel. If your tank starts leaking you have a
potential fire. Actually this is the only risk. But I can't imagine how
to extinguish a fuel fire from a leaking tank with a small 1 or 2Kg fire
extinguisher. In the pictures of Jos' mishap I noticed that the fireman
had to use quite some more powerful stuff to get this fuel fire under
control. On the pictures there was actually more foam than airplane, and
there were still flames visible...
The downside of these little extinguishers is that they bring in quite
some weight, can become a projectile during a crash, that they are
unable to extinguish a fuel fire anyway but suffocate the crew during
the attempt, and that a non fuel fire is extremely unlikely.
For the weight saved you can bring in quite some other safety enhancing
/ survival goodies, for events which are more likely than a non fuel
related fire starting.
Just my 2 cents...
--
Best regards,
Frans Veldman
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: CS10 rivet hole positions |
Hi Rowland,
I'm not far behind you on my (re)build.
The depth of the flange on my CS10C is 12.5mm.
I'm not sure what the mod is that Bob is talking about although the manual and
the packet that my parts came in refers to CS10C / 2 which I would guess is a
revision of that part. Would be worth checking with Europa on that one.
Regards,
Phil
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 4
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| Subject: | CS10 rivet hole positions |
At 2008-09-04 22:24 +0100 Robert C Harrison wrote:
>Can't help with your request for dimensions but I'm concerned that you
>have the modified end caps. I recall that there was a mod involved since
>the centre boss was fatiguing somehow
Bob - thanks for your concern. Yes, I do have the modified caps. In
fact, looking at the illustration in the factory newsletter #26 (June
2000) p12 showing old and new, I wouldn't have needed to post this
question if I'd had the old caps as the flange appears to be visible
from outside on the original design.
If no-one can help here with the necessary dimension I'll call the
factory and get them to measure a CS10C, and tell them to amend the
manual.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: CS10 rivet hole positions |
At 2008-09-05 11:15 +0300 flyingphil2 wrote:
>The depth of the flange on my CS10C is 12.5mm
Phil - thanks, I really appreciate your help! That will let me get on
with it today instead of waiting until Monday - I wasn't sure if the
non-technical people on duty at the factory today would be able to
find the right part.
[What I'm really waiting for, of course, is for the rain to stop long
enough so I can get the wings out of the trailer and do the stuff in
manual chapter 14 with the spar sockets and bushes on the cockpit
module out on the lawn. Theoretically I'd have room in the garage -
33' long - but surprisingly there is other stuff in there!]
>I'm not sure what the mod is that Bob is talking about although the
>manual and the packet that my parts came in refers to CS10C / 2
>which I would guess is a revision of that part. Would be worth
>checking with Europa on that one
Yes, mine were also CS10C/2; see my reply to Bob for more.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher |
They are available from http://www.lasaero.com/article/a-bcf-fire
Regards
Ivor
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
<mikenjulie.parkin@btinternet.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:41 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher
> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> I may be wrong Danni but I think Halon extinguishers are now no longer
> available in the UK anyway (aka BCF bromo chloro fluorethane) because
> they are considered harmful to the environment.
>
> Legislation prohibits the sale of halon products from December 31st
> 2002. - NO IM NOT WRONG !!!
> http://www.mfs-fire-extinguishers.co.uk/halon.htm
I am afraid you are Karl. BCF (aka Bromochlorodiflouromethane (Halon
1211))
is still permitted for use in aircraft and is exempt from the Montreal
Convention for the immediate future. Using a water/gas extinguisher in
the
cockpit would likely be a quick way of creating an electrical fire and a
dry
powder one would be likely to put the cockpit in IMC. Halon is the
only
sensible answer at the moment.
regards,
Mike
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: CS10 rivet hole positions |
Hi Rowland,
Ah, yes, I can see the mod now and my end caps are correct. Phew.
No problem with the dimension - I'm 'working from home' today !
Phil
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 8
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| Subject: | fire extinguishers |
Hi All,
Thanks for all the replies. As a matter of interest, is it
mandatory to carry a fire extinguisher? as Frans said, would it be
viable in a fuel fire. If it is mandatory then a Halon it will be.
Cheers Danny G-ceri
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? |
At 2008-09-04 23:36 +0100 Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote:
>The 1/4" holes in the bottom of the stick have no effect on the
>strength of the stick, as it is at the position of the holes
>socketed in to the lower fitting (CS01), which is of much greater
>diameter and with much greater wall thickness.
>
>The steel stick is stronger than the alloy stick. In particular, the
>cranked and welded alloy sticks have virtually no strength, because
>welding removes most of the strength of the 2024 heat-treated alloy
>from which the stick is made.
>
>The greatest forces on the stick will be in the for-aft direction
>e.g either in the situation of a jammed elevator control and
>feet-on-panel to get a decent 'pull', or as a matter of design
>requirement (i.e CS-VLA). That means that any hole in the stick
>should be drilled on the neutral axis in this situation (i.e. on the
>side of the stick) and as far above the point at which the stick
>enters CS01 as is possible.
>
>As regards the size of hole, you could calculate that from the
>proportion of material removed from the, say, a quarter of the
>circumference of the tube. So if you remove half of the
>quarter-of-circumference, then the hole would need to be half way up
>the stick, for no significant effect on strength of the stick. Or
>calculate from CS-VLA what strength you actually need and how much
>material you can remove!
>
>Anyway, why must you insist on a full grommet, when careful
>attention to radiusing of the hole and some extra heatshrink on the
>wires at that point should suffice.
Duncan - thanks for that very full explanation.
My original intention to fit a grommet was simply good electronic
engineering practice. As I said in a reply to Peter Rees, if the hole
edges can be radiused and smoothed, then securing of the wire against
movement both inside and outside would be as good and perhaps even
more satisfactory than a grommet - I just hadn't thought of doing
that!
One thing that might be difficult is ensuring that the inside edge of
the hole is free of sharp edges, particularly if it has to be distant
from the ends of the stick.
As to the position of the hole, it's beginning to sound as though
it's hardly worth considering drilling the CS16, and that a hole
through the CS01 would be safer. From your opening para, I assume
there would be less concern about adding weakness by drilling CS01 -
is that correct?
I'm copying this reply back to the list as Duncan's reply came only
to me (instead of to the list), and I think the points he raises are
worth publicising.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/
| 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers |
Find A Sport Aviation February 2008 and look pages 98-99.
Dana Heimos EAAA 834980 writes as follows:
- The FAA and NFPA strongly recommend the use of portable Halon fire
extinguishers in all aircraft
- dry chemical no no because IMC occurs and it is higly corrosive and
detrimental to electronics
- CO2 no no because cold-shock and restrict oxygen levels
- water no no because there is a risk of being electrocuted if used on
el. equipment
- Halon
1) does not restrict visibility
2) won=B4t damage electrics
3) is low toxicity (!!!)
4) is chemically stable and totally safe for human
5) does not displace oxygen from the air
6) is perfectly legal for aviation use
There are two types: 1211-1301 blend and pure 1211,
an alternative is Halotron 1. Halotron is ozone friendly but
unfortunately twice as large and heavy as liked-rated Halon.
For me personally I have fire extinguisher onboard mainly
if something happen on the ground for my plane or neigbour=B4s one.
Probably during refueling.
It is not easy to imagine cocpit fire situation airborne but if that
occurs,
pilot would be happy if he has Halon. About 20 years ago one
2-engine Piper=B4s cocpit flamed because choke (uncorrect word) fuel
line
got broken and pilot caught fire. He has not (Halon) extinguisher
and elected to jump out as a living torch. Same could happen to
Europa=B4s tube type fuel gauge. It is in the cockpit like are those
fuel
breathing lines also. I would be happy if they all were outside.
Let=B4s imagine you find some fresh fuel smell during flight.
Maybe your right leg or right hand also get wet about fuel.
***What we should do in this situation? ***
Immediately landing of course.
With electrics of or not? If you elect to switch off, there can be
in that moment a fateful spark during switching off.
Raimo from Finland
OH-XRT
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Pattinson
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 10:29 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers
Just a personal opinion but I would have thought that a CO2
extinguisher would be an acceptable substitute. You can pick up a new
2kg model for about =A330 on ebay. Weight not ideal but better than
nothing I would have thought.
The problem with all extinguishers is that they are designed to cut
off the oxygen supply to the fire but would also cut off the occupants
oxygen supply. Fact is any extinguisher in the air is going to cause
problems.
If there was an engine fire a CO2 extinguisher could be discharged in
the engine bay and would be very effective. In the cockpit is another
matter.
----- Original Message -----
From: Duncan & Ami McFadyean
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:35 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers
Fowarded from Dave Watts:
Halon fire extinguishers can be bought in the UK from Light Aero
Spare www.lasaero.com
They are expensive but are the only suitable extinguisher for use in
the air.
Dave Watts
G-BXDY
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? |
Sorry, that was meant to read "..a design/template they could share.."
On 4 Sep 2008, at 15:08, Rowland & Wilma Carson wrote:
> <rowil@clara.net>
>
> At 2008-09-04 09:50 +0100 William Harrison wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know a source of pre-made stick boots for the Europa?
>
> Willie - Tim Ward, a regular poster on this list, sells nice
> leather ones made by a leatherworker in NZ, and supplies them
> worldwide.
>
>> Alternatively, does anyone have a they can share?
>
> Not sure how that would work .... Mine are not in service yet, but
> I'm planning to keep them fitted once they're on!
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
> --
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Manifold Pressure Gauge |
Jeff,
thank you for your beautiful words - your statement made good for my hearth.
I will stop working just now, drive to the airport (EFTP), go airborne and finally
test my adjustable poor mans wing leveller (Trio ap will be installed next winter).
That is a rubber string with a hook. One end is fitted to the stick and when flying
alone hooked end is in the gear slot (that must take off before landing!).
Raimo from Finland
OH-XRT
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "JEFF ROBERTS" <jeff@rmmm.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
>
> Raimo,
> I don't know about the gauge but I couldn't help noticing your
> beautiful Europa in this months EAA Sport Aviation. Congratulations on
> a great looking plane and thanks for some fine recognition of our
> plane.
> Jeff Roberts,
> USA
> A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 150 hours and climbing slowly.
>
>
>
> On Sep 4, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
>
> >
> > I am looking for a very small MAP gauge - digital or analogical.
> > Does anybody have a tip?
> >
> > Ideal would be a CS prop controller WITH integrated gauge
> > but there obviously does not exist any.
> >
> > Raimo from Finland
> > OH-XRT
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard Collings" <r.collings@onetel.net>
> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
> >
> >
> >> <r.collings@onetel.net>
> >>
> >> Carl Hi. Its not a dumb question at all, but one that you will have
> >> answered
> >> to when you have completed the PPL licence endorsement cause for
> >> complexes
> >> aircraft, i.e., those fitted with a variable pitch prop!You may
> >> already this
> >> because of the mono's retractable undercarriage, but a couple of
> >> hours spent
> >> under instruction in a complex single would be money well spent.
> >> Regards Richard
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
> >> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 10:00 PM
> >> Subject: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge
> >>
> >>
> >>> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
> >>>
> >>> I am just filling in the LAA form to change our propeller (from a
> >>> fixed
> >>> pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ Smart Avionics controller). The
> >>> engine
> >>> is
> >>> a Rotax 912 UL 80hp.
> >>>
> >>> The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gauge
> >>> is
> >>> mandatory. Anyone know why?
> >>>
> >>> Its probably a dumb question but I dont understand the point of
> >>> monitoring
> >>> manifold pressure on a normal engine. I always thought it was more
> >>> relevant
> >>> to turbocharged engines.
> >>>
> >>> Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on the engine - I would
> >>> guess
> >>> the balancing pipe between the carburettors - is there a mod
> >>> required on
> >>> the
> >>> engine?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the explanation in advance.
> >>>
> >>> Carl Pattinson
> >>> G-LABS
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________
> >>> No viruses found in this outgoing message
> >>> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
> >>> http://www.iolo.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ----------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >> 6:02 AM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? |
Jim,
Thanks. My purpose was to produce a little bit "different" text which
should be readable also for possible non-builders and even for
non-pilots. Those people tend to think we - builders and pilots - are
not normal human people at all. Probably they are right. At least my
wife said so regularly and again this morning (he noticed I could not
sleep at all because I was planning some exciting modifications for
XRT).
Raimo from Finland
OH-XRT
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: jimpuglise@comcast.net
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
Raimo-
The article on your airplane is in this month's Sport Aviation. It is
well done and I really enjoyed reading it.
Jim Puglise, Punta Gorda, FL
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
>
> I have two trim swithes: one is in the stick (full speed)
> and other one is on the panel (adjustable speed).
> I use stick switch when landing (low air speed - faster trim
speed)
> and panel switch during cruise (fast air speed - slower trim
speed).
> I have a changeover switch to select which mode to use.
> If one switch would go broken, I have still other one left over to
trim.
> Trim CB is near panel switch just in case to stop possible
autotrim.
>
> Raimo
> OH-XT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham Singleton"
> To:
> Sent: Th ursday , September 04, 2008 9:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice?
>
>
>
> >
> > Robert C Harrison wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Hi! Rowland
> > > Just for the record I have the whole works in the stick top by
Mac,
> > > that is trim flaps and PTT. Andy Draper on Test(Before he went
to the
> > > PFA) was concerned about the use of charts activating the
buttons since
> > > they are very sensitive. I had a picture of a flip top cover I
made to
> > > get over this problem on the http://www.crix.org.uk site but
it seems to
> > > have gone missing,
> > I know of one case where the Mac switch probab ly got
Message 14
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| Subject: | Fw: Fire extinguishers |
Hi Frans and all,
I had a light, i think it was 500 gr halon extinguisher under my right hand, just
behind the P2 headrest. It would have been a costly mistake to try to put out
the fire, even as small as it was in the beginning. It would have been handy
though to extingwish my jeans, once outside.I think i heard it explode real
quickly though. Just for the record the order of the blaze: Saw fuel from the
return line on the right of the cockpit. The emergency landing drill made me
first switch off power, and a fracton of a second later, when i was allready leaving
the wreck, the fuel ignited. The fire quickly became larger, probably heated
the main fuel tank, and then starded blazing like it was turbocharged. Probably
the tank outlets had blown off. I don't hink that any build method or
improvement could have prevented fuel getting out and or the fire. Most likely
the fuel tank was still in one piece, and it looks from pictures i saw that also
the long range tank survived. Since we can't fly
on water, there will always be a risk. If you search to eliminate all risk, you
will end up with something that does nor fly anymore. The Europa, as designed,
is a safe plane. The rest is risk management. The major risk is stall-spin
related. After that the risk of fire is non significant. The Europa is still very
controllable at near to stall speeds.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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| Subject: | tie bar/W34 holes |
I am just about to drill the tie bar/W34 rear wing attachment assembly.
Anyone got any tips for drilling the holes vertical?
Thanks
Will
Checked by AVG.
17:29
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| Subject: | Classic stall characteristics |
As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to buy a
Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel that was converted
into a Tri-Gear back in 1998.
Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, I've
come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when stalling.
It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building the Classic wings,
it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100%
symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of
course!).
Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering: except
for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really safe altitude
in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a specific Classic might
have a nasty wing-drop when stalling?
And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just every
now and again?
Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in cruise and
level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of stall-strips or a tendency
to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect indicators'. Or is this
way of thinking a stupid one?
Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome!
Marcel
(PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well above
stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do :wink:)
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers |
Hello Raimo,
> For me personally I have fire extinguisher onboard mainly
> if something happen on the ground for my plane or neigbours one.
If it is for on the ground, CO2 would be fine.
> It is not easy to imagine cocpit fire situation airborne but if that occurs,
> pilot would be happy if he has Halon.
I don't think so. Your main objective is getting down, as fast as
possible. Fruitless attempts to extinguish the fire and partly choking
yourself is not compatible with preparing an emergency landing.
About your example:
> About 20 years ago one
> 2-engine Pipers cocpit flamed because choke (uncorrect word) fuel line
> got broken and pilot caught fire. He has not (Halon) extinguisher
> and elected to jump out as a living torch.
Suppose he had Halon, and then? You can maybe extinguish this fire, but
after that the pilot is still soaked with fuel. There was something that
ignited this fuel, and this something is still there. The fuel is also
still there. After the Halon is gone, the situation is likely to repeat
again, but this time without the Halon.
> Same could happen to
> Europas tube type fuel gauge. It is in the cockpit like are those fuel
> breathing lines also. I would be happy if they all were outside.
So, work on that! I have immediately abandoned the idea of using this
sight tube. Instead, I have a fuel flow sensor (also good to detect
leaks while airborne), and two separate fuel level sensors. I use a
one-way valve for the fuel return line, and have the tankvent arranged
in such a way that it won't leak fuel, neither upright or inverted. The
whole filter and fuel pump assembly is mounted in a sealed box, vented
to the outside. If one of these dozen jubilee clibs or tee's start
leaking, it is not going to make it into the cabin. I can't eliminate
all the risks, but at least minimize them, and make all situations where
Halon could be of any use most unlikely. If the tank splits wide open,
well, can't take away that risk, but then again the Halon would be
useless in that situation.
> Lets imagine you find some fresh fuel smell during flight.
> Maybe your right leg or right hand also get wet about fuel.
>
> ***What we should do in this situation? ***
>
> Immediately landing of course.
> With electrics of or not? If you elect to switch off, there can be
> in that moment a fateful spark during switching off.
If you have your system setup properly, there won't be a spark due to
the switch off. The soleonid should be sealed by itself. The control
current is small, and by using a diode over the soleonid, and a small
condensator over the switch, you won't get a spark. You will get a spark
though if you leave the master switch on, and the landing is a little
bit rough. Probably before that time you will get a spark from your trim
motor, flaps, or various other little electrical critters on board.
Frans
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers |
josok wrote:
Hi Jos,
> If you search to eliminate all risk, you will end up with
> something that does nor fly anymore.
I search to minimise the risk. Not eliminate, but minimize. So I will
still fly, but without non closeable fuel sight leaking sources around
me, and with no other fuel paths (and potential leaks) than what is
really necessary to keep the engine running.
I understand this is a sensitive topic for you. By no means I want to
suggest that you should have build or act differently than you did. But
of course, an "event" like yours reminds us about the risks of fire. I
think it is no coincidence that we currently see discussions about
Halon, one way fuel valve's, etc. The positive thing is that we are now
looking how to minimize the risk. Personally, I never thought about
installing a one-way valve in the fuel return line, until reading about
your accident. Your accident may one day save my life.
> The Europa, as designed, is a
> safe plane. The rest is risk management.
When I started building my Europa, I went through a lot of builders
archives, to see how other people built their Europa, and to pick up
good ideas. Later I started reading the forum. I became quite shocked
when I read that some of the people who were an example for me are no
longer with us. I had been digging through all your build pictures too,
and then some time later you became involved in an accident as well. It
might be true that the Europa is a safe plane, but every accident is one
too much. The builders archives are good for inspiration, but the
accident archives are good for enhancing safety. Both are valuable
sources to improve your plane.
BTW, how are you doing? Are you recovering well?
--
Frans
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Classic stall characteristics |
> Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa
> owners/builders, I've come to learn that some Classics have a really
> nasty wing-drop when stalling. It's my understanding that this is
> mainly because when building the Classic wings, it is near to
> impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100% symmetrical
> (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of
> course!).
The classic has less wash-out I believe. So the wings stall more abruptly.
--
Frans
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| Subject: | Re: Classic stall characteristics |
I had a Classic Europa that was converted to a Trike. It handled well, and
stalled straight ahead - provided the ball was in the middle. I got a bit
lazy once, had the ball out to the left, and sure enough I had a wing drop
(about 80deg in about half a second )- in other words the incipient stage of
a spin.
Standard recovery worked well,( as a reminder:- stick forward to break the
stall, smoothly up to full power, roll wings level.) lost about 300 ft. and
the aircraft recovered immaculatly. Please also remember the "stall speed"
is only wing level and unaccellerated stall speed. Wings actually stall due
to the angle of attack ! OK review over - for which I appologise.
In short the stall/ spin is pretty benign, with no nasty habits, HOWEVER, as
you point out these are hombuilt aircraft, and vary greatly from model to
model. The only way to be sure is to test fly it ( with plenty of altitude,
and a suitably experienced pilot).
BTW what is the registration of the aircraft ur looking at, and what's your
local ?
Dave
2008/9/5 zwakie <mz@cariama.nl>
>
> As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to
> buy a Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel that
> was converted into a Tri-Gear back in 1998.
>
> Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders,
> I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when
> stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building
> the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard
> wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love
> to hear them too of course!).
>
> Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering:
> except for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really safe
> altitude in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a
> specific Classic might have a nasty wing-drop when stalling?
> And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just
> every now and again?
>
> Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in
> cruise and level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of
> stall-strips or a tendency to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect
> indicators'. Or is this way of thinking a stupid one?
>
> Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome!
>
> Marcel
>
> (PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well
> above stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do :wink:)
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org <http://www.europaowners.org/>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Old Sarum Fly in |
Old Sarum Europa Fly In
Saturday September 13, 2008
Free Landing for Europas, Fuel available
Come and meet the two resident Europas
see Mod 64B (High Top with lowered cowl and bigger screen)
Non Flying builders and potential owners Welcome
This year we have invited the local Scouts and would hope to provide some
air experience flights.
(Pilots must have 100 hours and 25 on type)
If you plan (weather permitting) to attend please contact
Ian Rickard on 01483 714096 or e-mail (g-iani <mailto:g-iani@ntlworld.com>
@ntlworld.com)
By letting me know we can organise reserved Tables for Lunch (or Barbeque
depending on numbers)
Please indicate if you could provide an experience flight
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Classic stall characteristics |
Also the XS (with wash-out, as already pointed out) can have sudden wing
drop at stall entry if you are flying alone - mine does. Probably the
slight left aileron down/right aileron up that is necessary to keep wings
level with off-centre crew weight will create different angles of attack at
the outer part of the two wings' span, causing the left wing to stall first
and drop. When flying with a passenger, however, the stall of my XS is very
benign (almost difficult to enter stall in clean configuration). Recovery
is quick and undramatic in either case, nose down and right rudder
immediately stops the wing drop and level the wings.
Svein
LN-SKJ
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| Subject: | This gaping hole (nose gear) |
I'm building a tri-gear, and cut out the bottom of the fuselage for the nose gear
per instructions. Apparently, the idea in the manual is to leave it as is.
What are the aerodynamic properties of this hole? is it sucking air out of the
well, or is it building pressure?
I just closed it, by installing a plate in the nose gear system. If the nose gear
activates the spring, the plate opens with it since it is attached to the frame.
Normally it just blocks off this hole.
Of course I hope that it will be beneficial. Has someone else been closing this
hole as well? If so, was it beneficial?
Frans
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 24
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| Subject: | Fw: Fire extinguishers |
Frans, and all,
Airplanes are full of compromises. However you put it, there will always a risk
factor. It may sound funny, but the best way to stay out of fires is not to crash.
That is priority number one. And a a result people start adding return valves.
Generally, adding components, especially components that you can not possibly
check on every pre-flight is adding risk. And the reason is wrong, fuel
came out because the pumps were still running. The flow stopped when i switched
the power off. Now please do not even think of a when-shocked-power-off thing,
because it might trigger in some turbulence :-) Anyhow, it is all so dependent
on how the planes comes to rest. Upside down? Nose down? It would be more
interesting to mediate about the risks a variable speed prop without mechanical
locks introduces and how to arm against those risks. That is for me the best
fire protection :-)
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Recovering well, right eye written off. about 2 weeks to go before ready to ship.
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 25
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| Subject: | Fw: Fire extinguishers |
[quote:6d7c3b23c0="josok"]Frans, and all,
Airplanes are full of compromises. However you put it, there will always a risk
factor. It may sound funny, but the best way to stay out of fires is not to crash.
That is priority number one. And a a result people start adding return valves.
Generally, adding components, especially components that you can not possibly
check on every pre-flight is adding risk. And the reason is wrong, fuel
came out because the pumps were still running.
[/quote:6d7c3b23c0]
Yes, in your case it didn't matter. But I just realised that when the fuel return
line breaks, you can't close it, and the tank will drain through it.
Question yourself why we have a fuel valve at all. This is to switch off the fuel,
in case a line ruptures or something. If it closes only half of the fuel lines,
it doesn't make much sense. A better way is a fuel valve that closes also
the fuel return line. A one way valve is also a good solution.
Granted, adding components also introduces failure opportunities. It is a trade-off.
The Rotax 914 would have less chances for a fuel leak if you install only
one fuel pump. Still, people use two fuel pumps despite the extra components
because they feel it is safer (me to). I feel it is safer if I have a way to
close all fuel lines from the fuel tank, and not just one of them. ;-)
[quote:6d7c3b23c0="josok"]
Recovering well, right eye written off. about 2 weeks to go before ready to ship.
[/quote:6d7c3b23c0]
Do I misread this, or do you mean indeed that your right eye won't recover? If
so, that is very bad news! I feel very sorry for you!
Frans
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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| Subject: | =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Classic_stall_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?characteristics? |
X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5
I wouldnt describe the Classic stall as nasty.
If the ball is level, flaps retracted it is unlikely ther will be a wing
drop and simply lowering the nose is enough to recover. If the wing drops
use rudder (not aileron) to correct the incipient spin.
Elsewhere somebody said level the wings - this implies using aileron which
can make the spin worse.
With flaps down many classics will drop a wing but that is probably down to
the alignment of the flaps, not the difference in the wings.
Eliminating the wing drop is relatively easy - fit stall strips to make
both wings stall simultaneously.
If you are worried about the stall characteristics of the Classic get a ride
in one and check it out for yourself. It really is a non event.
----- Original Message -----
From: "zwakie" <mz@cariama.nl>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 2:41 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics
>
> As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to
> buy a Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel
> that was converted into a Tri-Gear back in 1998.
>
> Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders,
> I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when
> stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building
> the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard
> wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love
> to hear them too of course!).
>
> Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering:
> except for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really
> safe altitude in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a
> specific Classic might have a nasty wing-drop when stalling?
> And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just
> every now and again?
>
> Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in
> cruise and level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of
> stall-strips or a tendency to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect
> indicators'. Or is this way of thinking a stupid one?
>
> Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome!
>
> Marcel
>
> (PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well
> above stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do
> :wink:)
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
>
_______________________________________
No viruses found in this outgoing message
Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
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| Subject: | Re: Classic stall characteristics |
Marcel
the stall is usually more sudden with the flaps down. Not usually a
problem clean, in my experience. The thing that makes it vicious is if
the stall starts at the trailing edge so that the whole wing "unzips"
suddenly. The cure is to make the stall start at the leading edge and
this is what stall strips do. t
On three Classics that I have helped with we spent a lot of time
profiling the leading edge according to computer generated templates.
All three aircraft have relatively benign stall characteristics, they
also seem quite fast compared to others.
Graham
> Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, I've
come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when stalling.
It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building the Classic
wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100%
symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of
course!).
>
> Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome!
>
> Marcel
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics |
Just to be clear, I most certainly was impling the use of ailierons to level
the wing, BUT that is after the nose has been lowered, and full power
smoothly applied, flying speed regained. That is the incipient spin
recovery technique. It is deemed safer that picking up the wing with
rudder, as that is considered likely to spin you in the opposite direction
! Please, if you have any doubts about low speed handling, book a session
with a PFA coach or a Flying Instructor experienced in homebuilts.
Happy Landings
Dave
On 05/09/2008, Carl Pattinson <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> I wouldnt describe the Classic stall as nasty.
>
> If the ball is level, flaps retracted it is unlikely ther will be a wing
> drop and simply lowering the nose is enough to recover. If the wing drops
> use rudder (not aileron) to correct the incipient spin.
>
> Elsewhere somebody said level the wings - this implies using aileron which
> can make the spin worse.
>
> With flaps down many classics will drop a wing but that is probably down to
> the alignment of the flaps, not the difference in the wings.
>
> Eliminating the wing drop is relatively easy - fit stall strips to make
> both wings stall simultaneously.
>
> If you are worried about the stall characteristics of the Classic get a
> ride in one and check it out for yourself. It really is a non event.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "zwakie" <mz@cariama.nl>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 2:41 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics
>
>
>>
>> As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to
>> buy a Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel that
>> was converted into a Tri-Gear back in 1998.
>>
>> Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders,
>> I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when
>> stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building
>> the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard
>> wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love
>> to hear them too of course!).
>>
>> Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering:
>> except for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really safe
>> altitude in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a
>> specific Classic might have a nasty wing-drop when stalling?
>> And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just
>> every now and again?
>>
>> Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in
>> cruise and level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of
>> stall-strips or a tendency to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect
>> indicators'. Or is this way of thinking a stupid one?
>>
>> Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome!
>>
>> Marcel
>>
>> (PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well
>> above stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do :wink:)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org <http://www.europaowners.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________
> No viruses found in this outgoing message
> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5
> http://www.iolo.com
>
>
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| Subject: | Inspector Signing Required for CANADIAN Builders MOD |
73+74?