---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/05/08: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:33 AM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Fw=3A_Fire_extinguishers? (Carl Pattinson) 2. 01:16 AM - Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers (Frans Veldman) 3. 01:16 AM - Re: CS10 rivet hole positions (flyingphil2) 4. 01:42 AM - Re: CS10 rivet hole positions (Rowland & Wilma Carson) 5. 01:52 AM - Re: CS10 rivet hole positions (Rowland & Wilma Carson) 6. 02:20 AM - Re: Re: fire extinguisher (Ivor Phillips) 7. 02:26 AM - Re: CS10 rivet hole positions (flyingphil2) 8. 03:48 AM - fire extinguishers (danny shepherd) 9. 03:50 AM - Re: Fw: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? (Rowland & Wilma Carson) 10. 03:59 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers (Raimo Toivio) 11. 05:01 AM - Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? (William Harrison) 12. 05:22 AM - Re: Manifold Pressure Gauge (Raimo Toivio) 13. 05:36 AM - Re: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? (Raimo Toivio) 14. 06:04 AM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (josok) 15. 06:08 AM - tie bar/W34 holes (William Daniell) 16. 06:41 AM - Classic stall characteristics (zwakie) 17. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers (Frans Veldman) 18. 07:29 AM - Re: Fw: Fire extinguishers (Frans Veldman) 19. 07:33 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (Frans Veldman) 20. 07:36 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (David Buckley) 21. 07:47 AM - FW: Old Sarum Fly in (G-IANI) 22. 08:53 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 23. 08:57 AM - This gaping hole (nose gear) (Frans Veldman) 24. 09:09 AM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (josok) 25. 09:24 AM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (Frans Veldman) 26. 09:48 AM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Classic_stall_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?characteristics? (Carl Pattinson) 27. 10:02 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (Graham Singleton) 28. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Classic stall characteristics (David Buckley) 29. 10:33 AM - Re: Inspector Signing Required for CANADIAN Builders MOD 73+74? (Christoph Both) 30. 11:04 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (zwakie) 31. 11:09 AM - Re: Rough River (sldpileit@aol.com) 32. 01:18 PM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (josok) 33. 01:59 PM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (Frans Veldman) 34. 02:05 PM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Classic_stall_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?characteristics? (Carl Pattinson) 35. 02:34 PM - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Classic_stall_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?characteristics? (Carl Pattinson) 36. 03:47 PM - Re: Re: Classic stall characteristics (craig bastin) 37. 04:40 PM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (zwakie) 38. 11:24 PM - Fw: Fire extinguishers (josok) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:35 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Fw=3A_Fire_extinguishers? X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5 Just a personal opinion but I would have thought that a CO2 extinguisher would be an acceptable substitute. You can pick up a new 2kg model for about =A330 on ebay. Weight not ideal but better than nothing I would have thought. The problem with all extinguishers is that they are designed to cut off the oxygen supply to the fire but would also cut off the occupants oxygen supply. Fact is any extinguisher in the air is going to cause problems. If there was an engine fire a CO2 extinguisher could be discharged in the engine bay and would be very effective. In the cockpit is another matter. ----- Original Message ----- From: Duncan & Ami McFadyean To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:35 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers Fowarded from Dave Watts: Halon fire extinguishers can be bought in the UK from Light Aero Spare www.lasaero.com They are expensive but are the only suitable extinguisher for use in the air. Dave Watts G-BXDY ========= ========= ========= ========= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No viruses found in this incoming message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 http://www.iolo.com _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:41 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers I'm following this subject with interest. I thought that the general consensus is that we try to avoid putting unneccesary weight in our little aircrafts. How usefull is a fire extinguisher actually? We are smart enough to only use uncombustible materials in the cabin, right? We use teflon insulated wire's, right? We only perform non-smoking-flights, right? So how do people actually imagine a fire starting in the cabin? Now I know a risk: the fuel. If your tank starts leaking you have a potential fire. Actually this is the only risk. But I can't imagine how to extinguish a fuel fire from a leaking tank with a small 1 or 2Kg fire extinguisher. In the pictures of Jos' mishap I noticed that the fireman had to use quite some more powerful stuff to get this fuel fire under control. On the pictures there was actually more foam than airplane, and there were still flames visible... The downside of these little extinguishers is that they bring in quite some weight, can become a projectile during a crash, that they are unable to extinguish a fuel fire anyway but suffocate the crew during the attempt, and that a non fuel fire is extremely unlikely. For the weight saved you can bring in quite some other safety enhancing / survival goodies, for events which are more likely than a non fuel related fire starting. Just my 2 cents... -- Best regards, Frans Veldman ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: CS10 rivet hole positions From: "flyingphil2" Hi Rowland, I'm not far behind you on my (re)build. The depth of the flange on my CS10C is 12.5mm. I'm not sure what the mod is that Bob is talking about although the manual and the packet that my parts came in refers to CS10C / 2 which I would guess is a revision of that part. Would be worth checking with Europa on that one. Regards, Phil Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:42:26 AM PST US From: Rowland & Wilma Carson Subject: RE: Europa-List: CS10 rivet hole positions At 2008-09-04 22:24 +0100 Robert C Harrison wrote: >Can't help with your request for dimensions but I'm concerned that you >have the modified end caps. I recall that there was a mod involved since >the centre boss was fatiguing somehow Bob - thanks for your concern. Yes, I do have the modified caps. In fact, looking at the illustration in the factory newsletter #26 (June 2000) p12 showing old and new, I wouldn't have needed to post this question if I'd had the old caps as the flange appears to be visible from outside on the original design. If no-one can help here with the necessary dimension I'll call the factory and get them to measure a CS10C, and tell them to amend the manual. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/ | 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:52:13 AM PST US From: Rowland & Wilma Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: CS10 rivet hole positions At 2008-09-05 11:15 +0300 flyingphil2 wrote: >The depth of the flange on my CS10C is 12.5mm Phil - thanks, I really appreciate your help! That will let me get on with it today instead of waiting until Monday - I wasn't sure if the non-technical people on duty at the factory today would be able to find the right part. [What I'm really waiting for, of course, is for the rain to stop long enough so I can get the wings out of the trailer and do the stuff in manual chapter 14 with the spar sockets and bushes on the cockpit module out on the lawn. Theoretically I'd have room in the garage - 33' long - but surprisingly there is other stuff in there!] >I'm not sure what the mod is that Bob is talking about although the >manual and the packet that my parts came in refers to CS10C / 2 >which I would guess is a revision of that part. Would be worth >checking with Europa on that one Yes, mine were also CS10C/2; see my reply to Bob for more. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/ | 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:07 AM PST US From: "Ivor Phillips" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher They are available from http://www.lasaero.com/article/a-bcf-fire Regards Ivor Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:41 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: fire extinguisher > > > I may be wrong Danni but I think Halon extinguishers are now no longer > available in the UK anyway (aka BCF bromo chloro fluorethane) because > they are considered harmful to the environment. > > Legislation prohibits the sale of halon products from December 31st > 2002. - NO IM NOT WRONG !!! > http://www.mfs-fire-extinguishers.co.uk/halon.htm I am afraid you are Karl. BCF (aka Bromochlorodiflouromethane (Halon 1211)) is still permitted for use in aircraft and is exempt from the Montreal Convention for the immediate future. Using a water/gas extinguisher in the cockpit would likely be a quick way of creating an electrical fire and a dry powder one would be likely to put the cockpit in IMC. Halon is the only sensible answer at the moment. regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:26:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: CS10 rivet hole positions From: "flyingphil2" Hi Rowland, Ah, yes, I can see the mod now and my end caps are correct. Phew. No problem with the dimension - I'm 'working from home' today ! Phil Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:54 AM PST US From: danny shepherd Subject: Europa-List: fire extinguishers Hi All, Thanks for all the replies. As a matter of interest, is it mandatory to carry a fire extinguisher? as Frans said, would it be viable in a fuel fire. If it is mandatory then a Halon it will be. Cheers Danny G-ceri ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:01 AM PST US From: Rowland & Wilma Carson Subject: Re: Fw: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? At 2008-09-04 23:36 +0100 Duncan & Ami McFadyean wrote: >The 1/4" holes in the bottom of the stick have no effect on the >strength of the stick, as it is at the position of the holes >socketed in to the lower fitting (CS01), which is of much greater >diameter and with much greater wall thickness. > >The steel stick is stronger than the alloy stick. In particular, the >cranked and welded alloy sticks have virtually no strength, because >welding removes most of the strength of the 2024 heat-treated alloy >from which the stick is made. > >The greatest forces on the stick will be in the for-aft direction >e.g either in the situation of a jammed elevator control and >feet-on-panel to get a decent 'pull', or as a matter of design >requirement (i.e CS-VLA). That means that any hole in the stick >should be drilled on the neutral axis in this situation (i.e. on the >side of the stick) and as far above the point at which the stick >enters CS01 as is possible. > >As regards the size of hole, you could calculate that from the >proportion of material removed from the, say, a quarter of the >circumference of the tube. So if you remove half of the >quarter-of-circumference, then the hole would need to be half way up >the stick, for no significant effect on strength of the stick. Or >calculate from CS-VLA what strength you actually need and how much >material you can remove! > >Anyway, why must you insist on a full grommet, when careful >attention to radiusing of the hole and some extra heatshrink on the >wires at that point should suffice. Duncan - thanks for that very full explanation. My original intention to fit a grommet was simply good electronic engineering practice. As I said in a reply to Peter Rees, if the hole edges can be radiused and smoothed, then securing of the wire against movement both inside and outside would be as good and perhaps even more satisfactory than a grommet - I just hadn't thought of doing that! One thing that might be difficult is ensuring that the inside edge of the hole is free of sharp edges, particularly if it has to be distant from the ends of the stick. As to the position of the hole, it's beginning to sound as though it's hardly worth considering drilling the CS16, and that a hole through the CS01 would be safer. From your opening para, I assume there would be less concern about adding weakness by drilling CS01 - is that correct? I'm copying this reply back to the list as Duncan's reply came only to me (instead of to the list), and I think the points he raises are worth publicising. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/ | 1100 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:41 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers Find A Sport Aviation February 2008 and look pages 98-99. Dana Heimos EAAA 834980 writes as follows: - The FAA and NFPA strongly recommend the use of portable Halon fire extinguishers in all aircraft - dry chemical no no because IMC occurs and it is higly corrosive and detrimental to electronics - CO2 no no because cold-shock and restrict oxygen levels - water no no because there is a risk of being electrocuted if used on el. equipment - Halon 1) does not restrict visibility 2) won=B4t damage electrics 3) is low toxicity (!!!) 4) is chemically stable and totally safe for human 5) does not displace oxygen from the air 6) is perfectly legal for aviation use There are two types: 1211-1301 blend and pure 1211, an alternative is Halotron 1. Halotron is ozone friendly but unfortunately twice as large and heavy as liked-rated Halon. For me personally I have fire extinguisher onboard mainly if something happen on the ground for my plane or neigbour=B4s one. Probably during refueling. It is not easy to imagine cocpit fire situation airborne but if that occurs, pilot would be happy if he has Halon. About 20 years ago one 2-engine Piper=B4s cocpit flamed because choke (uncorrect word) fuel line got broken and pilot caught fire. He has not (Halon) extinguisher and elected to jump out as a living torch. Same could happen to Europa=B4s tube type fuel gauge. It is in the cockpit like are those fuel breathing lines also. I would be happy if they all were outside. Let=B4s imagine you find some fresh fuel smell during flight. Maybe your right leg or right hand also get wet about fuel. ***What we should do in this situation? *** Immediately landing of course. With electrics of or not? If you elect to switch off, there can be in that moment a fateful spark during switching off. Raimo from Finland OH-XRT ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Pattinson To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 10:29 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers Just a personal opinion but I would have thought that a CO2 extinguisher would be an acceptable substitute. You can pick up a new 2kg model for about =A330 on ebay. Weight not ideal but better than nothing I would have thought. The problem with all extinguishers is that they are designed to cut off the oxygen supply to the fire but would also cut off the occupants oxygen supply. Fact is any extinguisher in the air is going to cause problems. If there was an engine fire a CO2 extinguisher could be discharged in the engine bay and would be very effective. In the cockpit is another matter. ----- Original Message ----- From: Duncan & Ami McFadyean To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:35 PM Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers Fowarded from Dave Watts: Halon fire extinguishers can be bought in the UK from Light Aero Spare www.lasaero.com They are expensive but are the only suitable extinguisher for use in the air. Dave Watts G-BXDY ========= ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Europa-List ========= ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ========= ="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contr ibution ========= ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- No viruses found in this incoming message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 http://www.iolo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:01 AM PST US From: William Harrison Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? Sorry, that was meant to read "..a design/template they could share.." On 4 Sep 2008, at 15:08, Rowland & Wilma Carson wrote: > > > At 2008-09-04 09:50 +0100 William Harrison wrote: > >> Does anyone know a source of pre-made stick boots for the Europa? > > Willie - Tim Ward, a regular poster on this list, sells nice > leather ones made by a leatherworker in NZ, and supplies them > worldwide. > >> Alternatively, does anyone have a they can share? > > Not sure how that would work .... Mine are not in service yet, but > I'm planning to keep them fitted once they're on! > > regards > > Rowland > -- > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:43 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge Jeff, thank you for your beautiful words - your statement made good for my hearth. I will stop working just now, drive to the airport (EFTP), go airborne and finally test my adjustable poor mans wing leveller (Trio ap will be installed next winter). That is a rubber string with a hook. One end is fitted to the stick and when flying alone hooked end is in the gear slot (that must take off before landing!). Raimo from Finland OH-XRT do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "JEFF ROBERTS" Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:22 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge > > Raimo, > I don't know about the gauge but I couldn't help noticing your > beautiful Europa in this months EAA Sport Aviation. Congratulations on > a great looking plane and thanks for some fine recognition of our > plane. > Jeff Roberts, > USA > A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 150 hours and climbing slowly. > > > > On Sep 4, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote: > > > > > I am looking for a very small MAP gauge - digital or analogical. > > Does anybody have a tip? > > > > Ideal would be a CS prop controller WITH integrated gauge > > but there obviously does not exist any. > > > > Raimo from Finland > > OH-XRT > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Richard Collings" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:54 PM > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge > > > > > >> > >> > >> Carl Hi. Its not a dumb question at all, but one that you will have > >> answered > >> to when you have completed the PPL licence endorsement cause for > >> complexes > >> aircraft, i.e., those fitted with a variable pitch prop!You may > >> already this > >> because of the mono's retractable undercarriage, but a couple of > >> hours spent > >> under instruction in a complex single would be money well spent. > >> Regards Richard > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Carl Pattinson" > >> To: > >> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 10:00 PM > >> Subject: Europa-List: Manifold Pressure Gauge > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> I am just filling in the LAA form to change our propeller (from a > >>> fixed > >>> pitch to a CS version - Woodcomp/ Smart Avionics controller). The > >>> engine > >>> is > >>> a Rotax 912 UL 80hp. > >>> > >>> The LAA form says that the installation of a manifold pressure gauge > >>> is > >>> mandatory. Anyone know why? > >>> > >>> Its probably a dumb question but I dont understand the point of > >>> monitoring > >>> manifold pressure on a normal engine. I always thought it was more > >>> relevant > >>> to turbocharged engines. > >>> > >>> Also where does one take the pressure takeoff on the engine - I would > >>> guess > >>> the balancing pipe between the carburettors - is there a mod > >>> required on > >>> the > >>> engine? > >>> > >>> Thanks for the explanation in advance. > >>> > >>> Carl Pattinson > >>> G-LABS > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________ > >>> No viruses found in this outgoing message > >>> Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 > >>> http://www.iolo.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> ---------- > >> > >> > >> > >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > >> 6:02 AM > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:23 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? Jim, Thanks. My purpose was to produce a little bit "different" text which should be readable also for possible non-builders and even for non-pilots. Those people tend to think we - builders and pilots - are not normal human people at all. Probably they are right. At least my wife said so regularly and again this morning (he noticed I could not sleep at all because I was planning some exciting modifications for XRT). Raimo from Finland OH-XRT do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: jimpuglise@comcast.net To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:27 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? Raimo- The article on your airplane is in this month's Sport Aviation. It is well done and I really enjoyed reading it. Jim Puglise, Punta Gorda, FL -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Raimo Toivio" > > I have two trim swithes: one is in the stick (full speed) > and other one is on the panel (adjustable speed). > I use stick switch when landing (low air speed - faster trim speed) > and panel switch during cruise (fast air speed - slower trim speed). > I have a changeover switch to select which mode to use. > If one switch would go broken, I have still other one left over to trim. > Trim CB is near panel switch just in case to stop possible autotrim. > > Raimo > OH-XT > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Graham Singleton" > To: > Sent: Th ursday , September 04, 2008 9:22 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring exit from stick - uk practice? > > > > > > > Robert C Harrison wrote: > > > > > > > Hi! Rowland > > > Just for the record I have the whole works in the stick top by Mac, > > > that is trim flaps and PTT. Andy Draper on Test(Before he went to the > > > PFA) was concerned about the use of charts activating the buttons since > > > they are very sensitive. I had a picture of a flip top cover I made to > > > get over this problem on the http://www.crix.org.uk site but it seems to > > > have gone missing, > > I know of one case where the Mac switch probab ly got ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:38 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers From: "josok" Hi Frans and all, I had a light, i think it was 500 gr halon extinguisher under my right hand, just behind the P2 headrest. It would have been a costly mistake to try to put out the fire, even as small as it was in the beginning. It would have been handy though to extingwish my jeans, once outside.I think i heard it explode real quickly though. Just for the record the order of the blaze: Saw fuel from the return line on the right of the cockpit. The emergency landing drill made me first switch off power, and a fracton of a second later, when i was allready leaving the wreck, the fuel ignited. The fire quickly became larger, probably heated the main fuel tank, and then starded blazing like it was turbocharged. Probably the tank outlets had blown off. I don't hink that any build method or improvement could have prevented fuel getting out and or the fire. Most likely the fuel tank was still in one piece, and it looks from pictures i saw that also the long range tank survived. Since we can't fly on water, there will always be a risk. If you search to eliminate all risk, you will end up with something that does nor fly anymore. The Europa, as designed, is a safe plane. The rest is risk management. The major risk is stall-spin related. After that the risk of fire is non significant. The Europa is still very controllable at near to stall speeds. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:44 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: Europa-List: tie bar/W34 holes I am just about to drill the tie bar/W34 rear wing attachment assembly. Anyone got any tips for drilling the holes vertical? Thanks Will Checked by AVG. 17:29 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:49 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics From: "zwakie" As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to buy a Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel that was converted into a Tri-Gear back in 1998. Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of course!). Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering: except for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really safe altitude in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a specific Classic might have a nasty wing-drop when stalling? And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just every now and again? Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in cruise and level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of stall-strips or a tendency to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect indicators'. Or is this way of thinking a stupid one? Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome! Marcel (PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well above stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do :wink:) Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:30 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers Hello Raimo, > For me personally I have fire extinguisher onboard mainly > if something happen on the ground for my plane or neigbours one. If it is for on the ground, CO2 would be fine. > It is not easy to imagine cocpit fire situation airborne but if that occurs, > pilot would be happy if he has Halon. I don't think so. Your main objective is getting down, as fast as possible. Fruitless attempts to extinguish the fire and partly choking yourself is not compatible with preparing an emergency landing. About your example: > About 20 years ago one > 2-engine Pipers cocpit flamed because choke (uncorrect word) fuel line > got broken and pilot caught fire. He has not (Halon) extinguisher > and elected to jump out as a living torch. Suppose he had Halon, and then? You can maybe extinguish this fire, but after that the pilot is still soaked with fuel. There was something that ignited this fuel, and this something is still there. The fuel is also still there. After the Halon is gone, the situation is likely to repeat again, but this time without the Halon. > Same could happen to > Europas tube type fuel gauge. It is in the cockpit like are those fuel > breathing lines also. I would be happy if they all were outside. So, work on that! I have immediately abandoned the idea of using this sight tube. Instead, I have a fuel flow sensor (also good to detect leaks while airborne), and two separate fuel level sensors. I use a one-way valve for the fuel return line, and have the tankvent arranged in such a way that it won't leak fuel, neither upright or inverted. The whole filter and fuel pump assembly is mounted in a sealed box, vented to the outside. If one of these dozen jubilee clibs or tee's start leaking, it is not going to make it into the cabin. I can't eliminate all the risks, but at least minimize them, and make all situations where Halon could be of any use most unlikely. If the tank splits wide open, well, can't take away that risk, but then again the Halon would be useless in that situation. > Lets imagine you find some fresh fuel smell during flight. > Maybe your right leg or right hand also get wet about fuel. > > ***What we should do in this situation? *** > > Immediately landing of course. > With electrics of or not? If you elect to switch off, there can be > in that moment a fateful spark during switching off. If you have your system setup properly, there won't be a spark due to the switch off. The soleonid should be sealed by itself. The control current is small, and by using a diode over the soleonid, and a small condensator over the switch, you won't get a spark. You will get a spark though if you leave the master switch on, and the landing is a little bit rough. Probably before that time you will get a spark from your trim motor, flaps, or various other little electrical critters on board. Frans ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:38 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers josok wrote: Hi Jos, > If you search to eliminate all risk, you will end up with > something that does nor fly anymore. I search to minimise the risk. Not eliminate, but minimize. So I will still fly, but without non closeable fuel sight leaking sources around me, and with no other fuel paths (and potential leaks) than what is really necessary to keep the engine running. I understand this is a sensitive topic for you. By no means I want to suggest that you should have build or act differently than you did. But of course, an "event" like yours reminds us about the risks of fire. I think it is no coincidence that we currently see discussions about Halon, one way fuel valve's, etc. The positive thing is that we are now looking how to minimize the risk. Personally, I never thought about installing a one-way valve in the fuel return line, until reading about your accident. Your accident may one day save my life. > The Europa, as designed, is a > safe plane. The rest is risk management. When I started building my Europa, I went through a lot of builders archives, to see how other people built their Europa, and to pick up good ideas. Later I started reading the forum. I became quite shocked when I read that some of the people who were an example for me are no longer with us. I had been digging through all your build pictures too, and then some time later you became involved in an accident as well. It might be true that the Europa is a safe plane, but every accident is one too much. The builders archives are good for inspiration, but the accident archives are good for enhancing safety. Both are valuable sources to improve your plane. BTW, how are you doing? Are you recovering well? -- Frans ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:05 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics > Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa > owners/builders, I've come to learn that some Classics have a really > nasty wing-drop when stalling. It's my understanding that this is > mainly because when building the Classic wings, it is near to > impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100% symmetrical > (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of > course!). The classic has less wash-out I believe. So the wings stall more abruptly. -- Frans ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:44 AM PST US From: "David Buckley" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics I had a Classic Europa that was converted to a Trike. It handled well, and stalled straight ahead - provided the ball was in the middle. I got a bit lazy once, had the ball out to the left, and sure enough I had a wing drop (about 80deg in about half a second )- in other words the incipient stage of a spin. Standard recovery worked well,( as a reminder:- stick forward to break the stall, smoothly up to full power, roll wings level.) lost about 300 ft. and the aircraft recovered immaculatly. Please also remember the "stall speed" is only wing level and unaccellerated stall speed. Wings actually stall due to the angle of attack ! OK review over - for which I appologise. In short the stall/ spin is pretty benign, with no nasty habits, HOWEVER, as you point out these are hombuilt aircraft, and vary greatly from model to model. The only way to be sure is to test fly it ( with plenty of altitude, and a suitably experienced pilot). BTW what is the registration of the aircraft ur looking at, and what's your local ? Dave 2008/9/5 zwakie > > As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to > buy a Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel that > was converted into a Tri-Gear back in 1998. > > Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, > I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when > stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building > the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard > wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love > to hear them too of course!). > > Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering: > except for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really safe > altitude in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a > specific Classic might have a nasty wing-drop when stalling? > And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just > every now and again? > > Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in > cruise and level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of > stall-strips or a tendency to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect > indicators'. Or is this way of thinking a stupid one? > > Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome! > > Marcel > > (PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well > above stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do :wink:) > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:49 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: FW: Europa-List: Old Sarum Fly in Old Sarum Europa Fly In Saturday September 13, 2008 Free Landing for Europas, Fuel available Come and meet the two resident Europas see Mod 64B (High Top with lowered cowl and bigger screen) Non Flying builders and potential owners Welcome This year we have invited the local Scouts and would hope to provide some air experience flights. (Pilots must have 100 hours and 25 on type) If you plan (weather permitting) to attend please contact Ian Rickard on 01483 714096 or e-mail (g-iani @ntlworld.com) By letting me know we can organise reserved Tables for Lunch (or Barbeque depending on numbers) Please indicate if you could provide an experience flight Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:31 AM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics Also the XS (with wash-out, as already pointed out) can have sudden wing drop at stall entry if you are flying alone - mine does. Probably the slight left aileron down/right aileron up that is necessary to keep wings level with off-centre crew weight will create different angles of attack at the outer part of the two wings' span, causing the left wing to stall first and drop. When flying with a passenger, however, the stall of my XS is very benign (almost difficult to enter stall in clean configuration). Recovery is quick and undramatic in either case, nose down and right rudder immediately stops the wing drop and level the wings. Svein LN-SKJ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:36 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: This gaping hole (nose gear) From: "Frans Veldman" I'm building a tri-gear, and cut out the bottom of the fuselage for the nose gear per instructions. Apparently, the idea in the manual is to leave it as is. What are the aerodynamic properties of this hole? is it sucking air out of the well, or is it building pressure? I just closed it, by installing a plate in the nose gear system. If the nose gear activates the spring, the plate opens with it since it is attached to the frame. Normally it just blocks off this hole. Of course I hope that it will be beneficial. Has someone else been closing this hole as well? If so, was it beneficial? Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:15 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers From: "josok" Frans, and all, Airplanes are full of compromises. However you put it, there will always a risk factor. It may sound funny, but the best way to stay out of fires is not to crash. That is priority number one. And a a result people start adding return valves. Generally, adding components, especially components that you can not possibly check on every pre-flight is adding risk. And the reason is wrong, fuel came out because the pumps were still running. The flow stopped when i switched the power off. Now please do not even think of a when-shocked-power-off thing, because it might trigger in some turbulence :-) Anyhow, it is all so dependent on how the planes comes to rest. Upside down? Nose down? It would be more interesting to mediate about the risks a variable speed prop without mechanical locks introduces and how to arm against those risks. That is for me the best fire protection :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Recovering well, right eye written off. about 2 weeks to go before ready to ship. Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:28 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers From: "Frans Veldman" [quote:6d7c3b23c0="josok"]Frans, and all, Airplanes are full of compromises. However you put it, there will always a risk factor. It may sound funny, but the best way to stay out of fires is not to crash. That is priority number one. And a a result people start adding return valves. Generally, adding components, especially components that you can not possibly check on every pre-flight is adding risk. And the reason is wrong, fuel came out because the pumps were still running. [/quote:6d7c3b23c0] Yes, in your case it didn't matter. But I just realised that when the fuel return line breaks, you can't close it, and the tank will drain through it. Question yourself why we have a fuel valve at all. This is to switch off the fuel, in case a line ruptures or something. If it closes only half of the fuel lines, it doesn't make much sense. A better way is a fuel valve that closes also the fuel return line. A one way valve is also a good solution. Granted, adding components also introduces failure opportunities. It is a trade-off. The Rotax 914 would have less chances for a fuel leak if you install only one fuel pump. Still, people use two fuel pumps despite the extra components because they feel it is safer (me to). I feel it is safer if I have a way to close all fuel lines from the fuel tank, and not just one of them. ;-) [quote:6d7c3b23c0="josok"] Recovering well, right eye written off. about 2 weeks to go before ready to ship. [/quote:6d7c3b23c0] Do I misread this, or do you mean indeed that your right eye won't recover? If so, that is very bad news! I feel very sorry for you! Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:41 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Classic_stall_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?characteristics? X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5 I wouldnt describe the Classic stall as nasty. If the ball is level, flaps retracted it is unlikely ther will be a wing drop and simply lowering the nose is enough to recover. If the wing drops use rudder (not aileron) to correct the incipient spin. Elsewhere somebody said level the wings - this implies using aileron which can make the spin worse. With flaps down many classics will drop a wing but that is probably down to the alignment of the flaps, not the difference in the wings. Eliminating the wing drop is relatively easy - fit stall strips to make both wings stall simultaneously. If you are worried about the stall characteristics of the Classic get a ride in one and check it out for yourself. It really is a non event. ----- Original Message ----- From: "zwakie" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 2:41 PM Subject: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics > > As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to > buy a Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel > that was converted into a Tri-Gear back in 1998. > > Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, > I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when > stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building > the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard > wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love > to hear them too of course!). > > Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering: > except for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really > safe altitude in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a > specific Classic might have a nasty wing-drop when stalling? > And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just > every now and again? > > Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in > cruise and level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of > stall-strips or a tendency to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect > indicators'. Or is this way of thinking a stupid one? > > Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome! > > Marcel > > (PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well > above stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do > :wink:) > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:06 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics Marcel the stall is usually more sudden with the flaps down. Not usually a problem clean, in my experience. The thing that makes it vicious is if the stall starts at the trailing edge so that the whole wing "unzips" suddenly. The cure is to make the stall start at the leading edge and this is what stall strips do. t On three Classics that I have helped with we spent a lot of time profiling the leading edge according to computer generated templates. All three aircraft have relatively benign stall characteristics, they also seem quite fast compared to others. Graham > Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love to hear them too of course!). > > Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome! > > Marcel > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:27 AM PST US From: "David Buckley" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics Just to be clear, I most certainly was impling the use of ailierons to level the wing, BUT that is after the nose has been lowered, and full power smoothly applied, flying speed regained. That is the incipient spin recovery technique. It is deemed safer that picking up the wing with rudder, as that is considered likely to spin you in the opposite direction ! Please, if you have any doubts about low speed handling, book a session with a PFA coach or a Flying Instructor experienced in homebuilts. Happy Landings Dave On 05/09/2008, Carl Pattinson wrote: > > carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > > I wouldnt describe the Classic stall as nasty. > > If the ball is level, flaps retracted it is unlikely ther will be a wing > drop and simply lowering the nose is enough to recover. If the wing drops > use rudder (not aileron) to correct the incipient spin. > > Elsewhere somebody said level the wings - this implies using aileron which > can make the spin worse. > > With flaps down many classics will drop a wing but that is probably down to > the alignment of the flaps, not the difference in the wings. > > Eliminating the wing drop is relatively easy - fit stall strips to make > both wings stall simultaneously. > > If you are worried about the stall characteristics of the Classic get a > ride in one and check it out for yourself. It really is a non event. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "zwakie" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 2:41 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics > > >> >> As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to >> buy a Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel that >> was converted into a Tri-Gear back in 1998. >> >> Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, >> I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when >> stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building >> the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard >> wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love >> to hear them too of course!). >> >> Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering: >> except for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really safe >> altitude in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a >> specific Classic might have a nasty wing-drop when stalling? >> And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just >> every now and again? >> >> Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in >> cruise and level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of >> stall-strips or a tendency to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect >> indicators'. Or is this way of thinking a stupid one? >> >> Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome! >> >> Marcel >> >> (PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well >> above stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do :wink:) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________ > No viruses found in this outgoing message > Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 > http://www.iolo.com > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Inspector Signing Required for CANADIAN Builders MOD 73+74? From: "Christoph Both" Hello, I like to direct this message towards all Canadian builders: MOD 73 and 74 specify that an "Inspector" inspects and signs both MODs, according to the UK modification manual (in this case a PFA Inspector will need to do this). A placard is to be permanently affixed to both wings and Tailplanes carrying the visible signature and date of such an inspector. Has anyone gone through this process already as I am currently in limbo with the Canadian MDRA what to do. I think I should be able to sign this off myself (as it seems Europa factory requests all of us to put a sticker on each wing and tail plane - what a crazy idea!) as the procedures are quite simple and straight forward (put on nut and close wing etc). Has any Canadian builder received a definitive answer so far? Christoph Both #223 Classic, Wolfville Nova Scotia, Canada ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:20 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics From: "zwakie" Graham and all, Speeds, AOA, wash-outs and recovery technique for incipient spins are all clear, I consider those things essential knowledge to everyone acting as P1. Nonetheless thanks for reminding me and possibly others. I do not worry at all about stalling or incipient spins at safe altitudes, but I would not be happy flying an aircraft that has an 'strong wish' to enter stalls/spins while flying at lower-than-cruise speeds, flaps selected and possibly a slightly high AOA in a not truly coordinated turn. My pattern-flying tends to have small deviations in these things, after all I am not a highly sensitive, nanoseconds-responsive 3-axis AP :D. This probably to more or lesser degree applies to all of us (not implying sloppy flying by anyone here, so don't slap me! :wink: ). Without ever having flown such an aircraft, I guess that turning final is where you really have to be on high-alert with a plane like that, because that's when these elements are easiest aligned for entering a stall/spin that most likely is going to be non-recoverable. With the above in mind, I want to make sure that the characteristics are within MY PERSONAL limits. It goes without saying that doing stalls in different configs will be an important part of test-flying the plane. I was wondering if there are other ways you can tell if a plan has a tendency to violently drop a wing. Hence my question that actually has not been answered: is there any way you can tell from physically inspecting a Classic Europa that it might have a tendency to violently drop a wing? Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough River From: sldpileit@aol.com Hi guys, ????? Check Airnav.com, as there are several airports in the area that sell gas on sunday via credit card. I'll be fueling on Sunday 40 miles north on my way back to Dayton ohio. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Scott & Corky N108EA " Miss Madisyn" -----Original Message----- From: Troy Maynor Sent: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 8:01 pm Subject: Europa-List: Rough River Hi All, Just to let the rough river goers know, I had originally planned to bring 2 gas cans for you guys to refuel with. Now looks like we'll be riding the bike. Will check weather.com in the am for a final decision. I think others had planned to bring some cans anyways. Sorry. Troy Maynor N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic Left to finish: Seats, engine install underway, some wiring. Weaverville, NC USA ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:22 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers From: "josok" Frans, The fuel return line ends above the normal fuel level. No need for a tap. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:23 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers From: "Frans Veldman" [quote:481482e23f="josok"]Frans, The fuel return line ends above the normal fuel level. No need for a tap. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen[/quote:481482e23f] Ah, well, then they have changed it. In my situation, it is connected to the starboard fuel outlet, at the bottom of the tank. At the same location as where the fuel drain should be connected. I'm running the fuel lines through the wheel well (which is relatively empty as I'm building a tri-gear) so the fuel lines remain lower than the fuel level for most of their length. Hmm, that would also be a solution, to connect the return line to the tank vent outlet. Then of course a leak would not drain the entire tank. Is this how you had it connected? Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:07 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Classic_stall_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?characteristics? X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5 There seems to be an assumption that the stall/ spin behaviour of the Europa is somehow worse than other aircraft. I dont believe this to be true. In fact I would say that recovery from the Europa is much better than other aircraft I have flown. In the circuit you turn on to finals at 65kts and the stall speed (flap down) is less than 45kts. Stall warner will go off at about 50 kts - plenty of warning. If you are flying the correct circuit speed (making allowance for wind and turbulence) you wont stall. This applies to all aircraft. I really dont understand your problem. BTW I have flown the Europa into a turn and deliberately induced a stall - its easily recovered. I dont believe you can predict an aircrafts stall characteristics without actually flying it. Thats the point of test flying. If you have doubts about an aircrafts behaviour take it up to 3000ft with an experienced pilot (ie: on type ) then stall it straight and level, then in a turn. Try it both ways in case its worse in one direction than the other. I had the same concerns as you do till my instructor made do this. ----- Original Message ----- From: "zwakie" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics > > > Graham and all, > > Speeds, AOA, wash-outs and recovery technique for incipient spins are all > clear, I consider those things essential knowledge to everyone acting as > P1. Nonetheless thanks for reminding me and possibly others. > > I do not worry at all about stalling or incipient spins at safe altitudes, > but I would not be happy flying an aircraft that has an 'strong wish' to > enter stalls/spins while flying at lower-than-cruise speeds, flaps > selected and possibly a slightly high AOA in a not truly coordinated turn. > My pattern-flying tends to have small deviations in these things, after > all I am not a highly sensitive, nanoseconds-responsive 3-axis AP :D. This > probably to more or lesser degree applies to all of us (not implying > sloppy flying by anyone here, so don't slap me! :wink: ). > > Without ever having flown such an aircraft, I guess that turning final is > where you really have to be on high-alert with a plane like that, because > that's when these elements are easiest aligned for entering a stall/spin > that most likely is going to be non-recoverable. > > With the above in mind, I want to make sure that the characteristics are > within MY PERSONAL limits. > > It goes without saying that doing stalls in different configs will be an > important part of test-flying the plane. I was wondering if there are > other ways you can tell if a plan has a tendency to violently drop a wing. > > Hence my question that actually has not been answered: is there any way > you can tell from physically inspecting a Classic Europa that it might > have a tendency to violently drop a wing? > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > _______________________________________ > No viruses found in this incoming message > Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 > http://www.iolo.com > _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:23 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Europa-List=3A_Classic_stall_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?characteristics? X-mailer: iAVMailScanner 1.5.4.5 I guess I didnt really answer your real question - can you tell a "wing dropper" by looking at the aircraft and the answer is no. You could check the washout with a digital level but there are so many variables (eg: the flaps) that I doubt you could reach a meaningful conclusion. If the aircraft is fitted with stall strips it might suggest that there was a tendency to drop a wing (before the strips were fitted). BTW many commercial aircraft have stall strips fitted - the problem isnt just limited to homebuilds. The only reliable way is to test fly the aircraft with an experienced Europa pilot. A word of caution regarding stalling with the wings level. We discovered on our aircraft that the instrument panel wasnt put in straight - ie: aligned/ level with the wings. If the aircraft is stalled with reference to the instruments (ie: turn & slip) it drops a wing because the aircraft isnt 100% level !!!. Till we realised what the problem was, we always wondered why the ball wasnt in the centre. The fact is many Europa panels arent level - I suspect its a common problem with homebuilds. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "zwakie" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 2:41 PM Subject: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics > > As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to > buy a Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel > that was converted into a Tri-Gear back in 1998. > > Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, > I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when > stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building > the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard > wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love > to hear them too of course!). > > Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering: > except for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really > safe altitude in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a > specific Classic might have a nasty wing-drop when stalling? > And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just > every now and again? > > Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in > cruise and level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of > stall-strips or a tendency to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect > indicators'. Or is this way of thinking a stupid one? > > Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome! > > Marcel > > (PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well > above stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do > :wink:) > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > > _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 http://www.iolo.com ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:28 PM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics FWIW during my flight training a portion of it was done in two different Piper Tomahawk's they both flew nicely, but one, in the stall if you held off the stall long enough, had tendancy to almost go inverted, this was with wings level according to the ball, it always broke left, even when dual. So as others have suggested IMHO the only way to know is to fly it and try it for yourself. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: Saturday, 6 September 2008 7:34 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics I guess I didnt really answer your real question - can you tell a "wing dropper" by looking at the aircraft and the answer is no. You could check the washout with a digital level but there are so many variables (eg: the flaps) that I doubt you could reach a meaningful conclusion. If the aircraft is fitted with stall strips it might suggest that there was a tendency to drop a wing (before the strips were fitted). BTW many commercial aircraft have stall strips fitted - the problem isnt just limited to homebuilds. The only reliable way is to test fly the aircraft with an experienced Europa pilot. A word of caution regarding stalling with the wings level. We discovered on our aircraft that the instrument panel wasnt put in straight - ie: aligned/ level with the wings. If the aircraft is stalled with reference to the instruments (ie: turn & slip) it drops a wing because the aircraft isnt 100% level !!!. Till we realised what the problem was, we always wondered why the ball wasnt in the centre. The fact is many Europa panels arent level - I suspect its a common problem with homebuilds. Carl Pattinson G-LABS ----- Original Message ----- From: "zwakie" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 2:41 PM Subject: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics > > As announced in my first posting here from two weeks ago, I am looking to > buy a Tri-Gear, and as it happens I have my eye on a Classic Monowheel > that was converted into a Tri-Gear back in 1998. > > Reading this forum and from talking to a couple of Europa owners/builders, > I've come to learn that some Classics have a really nasty wing-drop when > stalling. It's my understanding that this is mainly because when building > the Classic wings, it is near to impossible to produce port and starboard > wings to be 100% symmetrical (if there are any other reasons, I would love > to hear them too of course!). > > Since I don't want a plane that has a nasty wing-drop, I was wondering: > except for flying the plane and performing numerous stalls at a really > safe altitude in different configs, are there other ways to find out if a > specific Classic might have a nasty wing-drop when stalling? > And: will such wing-drops always manifest when doing stalls, or is it just > every now and again? > > Being a novice in this area, I f.i. could imagine that a heavy wing in > cruise and level, the presence of an aileron-trim, the absence of > stall-strips or a tendency to yaw in straight and level might be 'indirect > indicators'. Or is this way of thinking a stupid one? > > Any tip or trick to identify a plane with a nasty wing-drop is welcome! > > Marcel > > (PS: no need to talk about speed here, I am fully aware that flying well > above stall-speeds in a coordinated matter is a sensible thing to do > :wink:) > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > _______________________________________ No viruses found in this outgoing message Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.5.4.5 http://www.iolo.com Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 7:05 PM ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics From: "zwakie" [quote:cf61ea0bc1="carl at flyers.freeser..."]There seems to be an assumption...[/quote:cf61ea0bc1] Negative, just trying to find out validaty of the things I've been told. I really appreciate your input, together with [quote:cf61ea0bc1="raggi6771"]...in two different Piper Tomahawk's...[/quote:cf61ea0bc1] this places my concerns in perspective for me! I now understand that I can forget about measuring up or doing physical checks in an attempt to predict wing-drop tendency in stalls. [quote:cf61ea0bc1="carl at flyers.freeser..."]I had the same concerns as you do till my instructor made do this[/quote:cf61ea0bc1] Good to hear that I'm not the first one with these thoughts (not real concerns in my case though), and that you overcame them :D In conclusion: I will not be too worried about this, unless extensive stall-testing proofs differently. Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:58 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Fw: Fire extinguishers From: "josok" Fuel return to the vent opening, top of the tank, and i just now checked again, it was non-standard. I had the Singleton fuel line system. Pictures on the Singleton mod pages and my builders pictures. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen. 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