Today's Message Index:
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1. 04:09 AM - Re: Re: Classic stall characteristics (G-IANI)
2. 07:14 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (David Buckley)
3. 11:43 AM - wing drop (Fergus Kyle)
4. 01:20 PM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (Frans Veldman)
5. 03:59 PM - Re: wing drop (David Buckley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics |
As Carl has said many, if not most, Europas have a 1 degree error in the
turn ball. This is because the bottom edge of the panel is at that angle to
the axis of the aircraft. Europa designed it that way but forgot to explain
in the build manual. Most people, me included, only noticed when the
aircraft had flown.
My aircraft (and G-IRON) are both XSs and have very benign stall
characteristics both straight and turning. This was established with a lot
of testing needed for the new High top (Mod 64b). If anything G-IRON would
drop the port wing slightly. Initially neither aircraft needed or had stall
strips fitted.
During the testing we found that the aircraft are so well behaved it was
very difficult to know exactly when they stalled, they just developed a high
sink rate. David Scouler, who did the testing, pointed out that stall
strips put the disturbed airflow over the tail plane making it far easier to
"feel" the stall. So we tried it and it works well to indicate that the
stall is fully developed.
So do not assume that the presence of stall strips indicate that the
aircraft has bad habits.
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Classic stall characteristics |
Just for clarity,
In spite of my posts in this thred, (all of which I stand by), the classic
Europa is, in my opinion a safe, sweet handling aircraft. Provided the
aircraft has been set up properly with the stall strips installed as per the
manual, you would have to be comatose not to recognise an oncoming
stall/spin scenario in it. I flew over 400hrs in one without having any
issues at all re the handling of the aircraft.
You'll love it I'm sure !
Dave
On 06/09/2008, zwakie <mz@cariama.nl> wrote:
>
>
> [quote:cf61ea0bc1="carl at flyers.freeser..."]There seems to be an
> assumption...[/quote:cf61ea0bc1]
> Negative, just trying to find out validaty of the things I've been told. I
> really appreciate your input, together with
> [quote:cf61ea0bc1="raggi6771"]...in two different Piper
> Tomahawk's...[/quote:cf61ea0bc1]
> this places my concerns in perspective for me! I now understand that I can
> forget about measuring up or doing physical checks in an attempt to predict
> wing-drop tendency in stalls.
>
> [quote:cf61ea0bc1="carl at flyers.freeser..."]I had the same concerns as
> you do till my instructor made do this[/quote:cf61ea0bc1]
> Good to hear that I'm not the first one with these thoughts (not real
> concerns in my case though), and that you overcame them :D
>
> In conclusion: I will not be too worried about this, unless extensive
> stall-testing proofs differently.
>
>
> Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
>
>
Message 3
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David,
You mentioned:
>" I got a bit lazy once, had the ball out to the left, and sure enough I
had a wing drop
>(about 80deg in about half a second )- in other words the incipient stage
of a spin.
>
>Standard recovery worked well, (as a reminder:- stick forward to break the
>stall, **smoothly up to full power, roll wings level.) lost about 300 ft.
and
>the aircraft recovered immaculately. Please also remember the "stall
speed"
>is only wing level and unaccellerated stall speed. Wings actually stall
due
>to the angle of attack ! OK review over - for which I appologise."
There will (or have been) others to note this, [Svein and Carl for
instance]but I
have flown maybe 56 various aircraft, mostly advanced, and in stall recovery
(or spin
prevention) none of those ever used the word 'roll' until having used
'rudder' (yaw).
The only time I can remember the roll word was about number 52 in tumbling a
T33
and it said don't touch a damn thing until you find out what it settles into
- and then it
said Rudder First.*
Angle of attack as cause of stall is correct as far as it goes, but
wing drop is
an indication of the slower wing - and only yaw speeds up that wing - with
rudder.
That's why I suspected "wind-wag" or "tail-wag" instructions at Oshkosh as a
possible cause of the low-level stall and spin we all regret.
I only write this because impressions are easy to instill when tyros
read this
column and I'm sure you meant it to come out differently.
Cheers, Ferg
* Admittedly one of them said "....in a tumble, try everything till you find
the one that
works, otherwise eject at 13,000 AGL because you are already below 9,000
[lag]."
** I think "recover from dive with engine idle" comes next......
.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Classic stall characteristics |
This was established with a lot
of testing needed for the new High top (Mod 64b).[/quote:27bb034c16]
What is the effect of this hi top mod on max speed and cruise speed?
Frans
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Message 5
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Fergus, whilst I agree with what you say, with the wing drop we are talking
about the incipient stage of a spin, ie: before it has fully developed - in
the fully developed spin I agree wholeheartedly the rotation must be
stopped with rudder before unstalling the main plane.
At the incipeint stage the amount of yaw may be negligable. Rapidly moving
the stick forward reduces the angle of attack and the aircraft is now
flying again at which point aelieron can be used to roll level, and full
power applied to climb away. This was the method I was taught on my
instructor course, and was reconfirmed on a recent standardisation course,
with an RAF instructor instructor.
The rationale being that this is the quickest way to return to a safe flight
condition near to the ground. The inadvertent entry into the incipent stage
of a spin being most likely on the turn from base to final in the circuit (
pattern) We have found a real risk of students "picking up" a dropped wing
with rudder entering a spin in the opposite direction
BTW, a wing does not necesarily have to be "speeded up" to recover, mearly
unloading it will have the same effect.
For exaple a CAP 10 I fly aero's in has a wing level, unaccelerated stall
speed of 55 Kts. I can have that wing still flying at 30 kts ( at the top
of a loop for example at about 1/2 a G.
Equally I can stall it at 120 kts pulling out too sharply at the bottom at
2.5 - 3 G
Finally, whilst this discussion is healthy, I'm sure you will agree that
reading about it is no substitute for a session with an instructor or coach
in an aircraft.
Dave
.
On 06/09/2008, Fergus Kyle <VE3LVO@rac.ca> wrote:
>
> David,
> You mentioned:
> >" I got a bit lazy once, had the ball out to the left, and sure enough I
> had a wing drop
> >(about 80deg in about half a second )- in other words the incipient stage
> of a spin.
> >
> >Standard recovery worked well, (as a reminder:- stick forward to break the
> >stall, **smoothly up to full power, roll wings level.) lost about 300 ft.
> and
> >the aircraft recovered immaculately. Please also remember the "stall
> speed"
> >is only wing level and unaccellerated stall speed. Wings actually stall
> due
> >to the angle of attack ! OK review over - for which I appologise."
>
> There will (or have been) others to note this, [Svein and Carl for
> instance]but I
> have flown maybe 56 various aircraft, mostly advanced, and in stall
> recovery
> (or spin
> prevention) none of those ever used the word 'roll' until having used
> 'rudder' (yaw).
> The only time I can remember the roll word was about number 52 in tumbling
> a
> T33
> and it said don't touch a damn thing until you find out what it settles
> into
> - and then it
> said Rudder First.*
> Angle of attack as cause of stall is correct as far as it goes, but
> wing drop is
> an indication of the slower wing - and only yaw speeds up that wing - with
> rudder.
> That's why I suspected "wind-wag" or "tail-wag" instructions at Oshkosh as
> a
>
> possible cause of the low-level stall and spin we all regret.
> I only write this because impressions are easy to instill when tyros
> read this
> column and I'm sure you meant it to come out differently.
> Cheers, Ferg
> * Admittedly one of them said "....in a tumble, try everything till you
> find
> the one that
> works, otherwise eject at 13,000 AGL because you are already below 9,000
> [lag]."
> ** I think "recover from dive with engine idle" comes next......
>
> .
>
>
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