---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/06/08: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:09 AM - Re: Re: Classic stall characteristics (G-IANI) 2. 07:14 AM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (David Buckley) 3. 11:43 AM - wing drop (Fergus Kyle) 4. 01:20 PM - Re: Classic stall characteristics (Frans Veldman) 5. 03:59 PM - Re: wing drop (David Buckley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:13 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics As Carl has said many, if not most, Europas have a 1 degree error in the turn ball. This is because the bottom edge of the panel is at that angle to the axis of the aircraft. Europa designed it that way but forgot to explain in the build manual. Most people, me included, only noticed when the aircraft had flown. My aircraft (and G-IRON) are both XSs and have very benign stall characteristics both straight and turning. This was established with a lot of testing needed for the new High top (Mod 64b). If anything G-IRON would drop the port wing slightly. Initially neither aircraft needed or had stall strips fitted. During the testing we found that the aircraft are so well behaved it was very difficult to know exactly when they stalled, they just developed a high sink rate. David Scouler, who did the testing, pointed out that stall strips put the disturbed airflow over the tail plane making it far easier to "feel" the stall. So we tried it and it works well to indicate that the stall is fully developed. So do not assume that the presence of stall strips indicate that the aircraft has bad habits. Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 200 hours Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:30 AM PST US From: "David Buckley" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics Just for clarity, In spite of my posts in this thred, (all of which I stand by), the classic Europa is, in my opinion a safe, sweet handling aircraft. Provided the aircraft has been set up properly with the stall strips installed as per the manual, you would have to be comatose not to recognise an oncoming stall/spin scenario in it. I flew over 400hrs in one without having any issues at all re the handling of the aircraft. You'll love it I'm sure ! Dave On 06/09/2008, zwakie wrote: > > > [quote:cf61ea0bc1="carl at flyers.freeser..."]There seems to be an > assumption...[/quote:cf61ea0bc1] > Negative, just trying to find out validaty of the things I've been told. I > really appreciate your input, together with > [quote:cf61ea0bc1="raggi6771"]...in two different Piper > Tomahawk's...[/quote:cf61ea0bc1] > this places my concerns in perspective for me! I now understand that I can > forget about measuring up or doing physical checks in an attempt to predict > wing-drop tendency in stalls. > > [quote:cf61ea0bc1="carl at flyers.freeser..."]I had the same concerns as > you do till my instructor made do this[/quote:cf61ea0bc1] > Good to hear that I'm not the first one with these thoughts (not real > concerns in my case though), and that you overcame them :D > > In conclusion: I will not be too worried about this, unless extensive > stall-testing proofs differently. > > > Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:40 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: wing drop David, You mentioned: >" I got a bit lazy once, had the ball out to the left, and sure enough I had a wing drop >(about 80deg in about half a second )- in other words the incipient stage of a spin. > >Standard recovery worked well, (as a reminder:- stick forward to break the >stall, **smoothly up to full power, roll wings level.) lost about 300 ft. and >the aircraft recovered immaculately. Please also remember the "stall speed" >is only wing level and unaccellerated stall speed. Wings actually stall due >to the angle of attack ! OK review over - for which I appologise." There will (or have been) others to note this, [Svein and Carl for instance]but I have flown maybe 56 various aircraft, mostly advanced, and in stall recovery (or spin prevention) none of those ever used the word 'roll' until having used 'rudder' (yaw). The only time I can remember the roll word was about number 52 in tumbling a T33 and it said don't touch a damn thing until you find out what it settles into - and then it said Rudder First.* Angle of attack as cause of stall is correct as far as it goes, but wing drop is an indication of the slower wing - and only yaw speeds up that wing - with rudder. That's why I suspected "wind-wag" or "tail-wag" instructions at Oshkosh as a possible cause of the low-level stall and spin we all regret. I only write this because impressions are easy to instill when tyros read this column and I'm sure you meant it to come out differently. Cheers, Ferg * Admittedly one of them said "....in a tumble, try everything till you find the one that works, otherwise eject at 13,000 AGL because you are already below 9,000 [lag]." ** I think "recover from dive with engine idle" comes next...... .. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:27 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Classic stall characteristics From: "Frans Veldman" This was established with a lot of testing needed for the new High top (Mod 64b).[/quote:27bb034c16] What is the effect of this hi top mod on max speed and cruise speed? Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:59:20 PM PST US From: "David Buckley" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wing drop Fergus, whilst I agree with what you say, with the wing drop we are talking about the incipient stage of a spin, ie: before it has fully developed - in the fully developed spin I agree wholeheartedly the rotation must be stopped with rudder before unstalling the main plane. At the incipeint stage the amount of yaw may be negligable. Rapidly moving the stick forward reduces the angle of attack and the aircraft is now flying again at which point aelieron can be used to roll level, and full power applied to climb away. This was the method I was taught on my instructor course, and was reconfirmed on a recent standardisation course, with an RAF instructor instructor. The rationale being that this is the quickest way to return to a safe flight condition near to the ground. The inadvertent entry into the incipent stage of a spin being most likely on the turn from base to final in the circuit ( pattern) We have found a real risk of students "picking up" a dropped wing with rudder entering a spin in the opposite direction BTW, a wing does not necesarily have to be "speeded up" to recover, mearly unloading it will have the same effect. For exaple a CAP 10 I fly aero's in has a wing level, unaccelerated stall speed of 55 Kts. I can have that wing still flying at 30 kts ( at the top of a loop for example at about 1/2 a G. Equally I can stall it at 120 kts pulling out too sharply at the bottom at 2.5 - 3 G Finally, whilst this discussion is healthy, I'm sure you will agree that reading about it is no substitute for a session with an instructor or coach in an aircraft. Dave .. On 06/09/2008, Fergus Kyle wrote: > > David, > You mentioned: > >" I got a bit lazy once, had the ball out to the left, and sure enough I > had a wing drop > >(about 80deg in about half a second )- in other words the incipient stage > of a spin. > > > >Standard recovery worked well, (as a reminder:- stick forward to break the > >stall, **smoothly up to full power, roll wings level.) lost about 300 ft. > and > >the aircraft recovered immaculately. Please also remember the "stall > speed" > >is only wing level and unaccellerated stall speed. Wings actually stall > due > >to the angle of attack ! OK review over - for which I appologise." > > There will (or have been) others to note this, [Svein and Carl for > instance]but I > have flown maybe 56 various aircraft, mostly advanced, and in stall > recovery > (or spin > prevention) none of those ever used the word 'roll' until having used > 'rudder' (yaw). > The only time I can remember the roll word was about number 52 in tumbling > a > T33 > and it said don't touch a damn thing until you find out what it settles > into > - and then it > said Rudder First.* > Angle of attack as cause of stall is correct as far as it goes, but > wing drop is > an indication of the slower wing - and only yaw speeds up that wing - with > rudder. > That's why I suspected "wind-wag" or "tail-wag" instructions at Oshkosh as > a > > possible cause of the low-level stall and spin we all regret. > I only write this because impressions are easy to instill when tyros > read this > column and I'm sure you meant it to come out differently. > Cheers, Ferg > * Admittedly one of them said "....in a tumble, try everything till you > find > the one that > works, otherwise eject at 13,000 AGL because you are already below 9,000 > [lag]." > ** I think "recover from dive with engine idle" comes next...... > > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.