---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/13/08: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:23 AM - Re: RO/RO connection between Europa and USA? (Mike Parkin) 2. 02:12 AM - emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] (josok) 3. 02:23 AM - Re: RO/RO connection between Europa and USA? (Robert C Harrison) 4. 02:29 AM - Re: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] (Graham Singleton) 5. 05:19 AM - Re: RO/RO connection between Europa and USA? (Karl Heindl) 6. 07:21 AM - Re: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] () 7. 07:39 AM - Gemini engine (Fred Klein) 8. 08:20 AM - Re: Gemini engine (Christoph Both) 9. 09:24 AM - Re: Gemini engine (JEFF ROBERTS) 10. 10:15 AM - emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] (josok) 11. 11:14 AM - Re: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] () 12. 02:34 PM - emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] (Frans Veldman) 13. 08:21 PM - Starboard spar pin bush (craig bastin) 14. 09:52 PM - Re: Starboard spar pin bush (Peter Zutrauen) 15. 10:31 PM - Re: Starboard spar pin bush (raggi6771) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:58 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RO/RO connection between Europa and USA? Hi Gert, Have a look at http://www.autoshippers.co.uk/Ro-Ro%20Ports.htm. Regards, Mike From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard Sent: 13 September 2008 07:43 Subject: Europa-List: RO/RO connection between Europa and USA? Hi I remember someone wrote about a "ferry" or RO/RO connection between somewhere in Europa and the American Eastcoast for some time ago..... We plan to take the Aircraft to USA and are looking at the possibilities to get the Europa to USA on the trailer. Gert Gert Dalgaard Soerensen Stabelvej 9, Haarby DK 8660 Skanderborg Denmark Europa builder No. 151 Europa Mono / Rotax 914 AC reg.: OY-GDS Phone.: +45 8695 0595 E mail: lgds@post6.tele.dk ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:58 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] From: "josok" Hi All, Back home again. Feels good, although no house is build to move around in a wheelchair. It will take a few more weeks before i am allowed to use my legs again. Anyhow, i thought i would like to share some more thoughts about the incident. From a good source i learned that mogas or avgas, spayed, sprikled or throw at/on hot surfaces will not ignite. It takes a good spark to start a fire. But a drop of oil on an exhaust pipe will burn immediatly. In this particular case the turbo oil lines or pump were most probably smashed, and the oil started the fire, later fed by fuel. The much feared long range tank, also full of fuel, survived the ordeal intact. Only the top caved in a bit because of the heat. The reverse prop is a red herring. I am pretty sure that the reverse function has nothing to do with the accident. So please folks, be cautious, also if your installation does not have reverse or vane. It would be a very good idea to have a very critical look at your installation, because it is your life. Maybe an open minded discussion about possible fault scenarios would be a good idea. For obvious reasons i can not point my finger, or take part in such a discussion. But i am sure others will :-) Did i miss something or has the Rotax tactory and it's news been forgotten? Hmm, that's about 4 subjects in one message. Would it have been better to write 4 messages? W'll see. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:38 AM PST US From: "Robert C Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RO/RO connection between Europa and USA? Hi! Gert I would suggest that Alan Burrows may be the guy to help you he took his a/c over except perhaps it was permanently if you don't have his e-mail I'm copying him in on this message. Although I guess he's lurking anyway ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lisbet og Gert Dalgaard Sent: 13 September 2008 07:43 Subject: Europa-List: RO/RO connection between Europa and USA? Hi I remember someone wrote about a "ferry" or RO/RO connection between somewhere in Europa and the American Eastcoast for some time ago..... We plan to take the Aircraft to USA and are looking at the possibilities to get the Europa to USA on the trailer. Gert Gert Dalgaard Soerensen Stabelvej 9, Haarby DK 8660 Skanderborg Denmark Europa builder No. 151 Europa Mono / Rotax 914 AC reg.: OY-GDS Phone.: +45 8695 0595 E mail: lgds@post6.tele.dk ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:29:27 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] Jos Mike Costin once told us that, many years ago, he also said that oil fires are very difficult to put out. (Mike used to make Cosworth racing engines and knows a lot about these things. Graham josok wrote: > > Hi All, > > i thought i would like to share some more thoughts about the incident. From a good source i learned that mogas or avgas, spayed, sprikled or throw at/on hot surfaces will not ignite. It takes a good spark to start a fire. But a drop of oil on an exhaust pipe will burn immediatly. In this particular case the turbo oil lines or pump were most probably smashed, and the oil started the fire, later fed by fuel. > > Jos Okhuijsen > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:51 AM PST US From: Karl Heindl Subject: RE: Europa-List: RO/RO connection between Europa and USA? Check with Wallenius Wilhelmsen Lines. Phone number in UK is +44 23 8023 77 11 in Southampton. Nearest port to you probably is Bremerhaven. These are huge car ferries leaving at least once a week=2C and go to variou s ports on the east coast of N.A. and probably all over the world. They wil l take anything on wheels and charge by the cubic meter=3B i.e. a monowheel on a low trailer would cost a lot less than a trigear. Before you fly in the US=2C make sure your altimeter has pressure setting f or inches instead of mb. Karl
From: lgds@post6.tele.dkTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Europa-List: RO/RO connection between Europa and USA?Date: Sat=2C 13 Sep 2008 08:43:03 + 0200 Hi I remember someone wrote about a "ferry" or RO/RO connection between som ewhere in Europa and the American Eastcoast for some time ago..... We plan to take the Aircraft to USA and are looking at the possibilities to get the Europa to USA on the trailer. Gert Gert Dalgaard Soerensen Stabelvej 9=2C Haarby DK 8660 Skanderborg Denmark Europa builder No. 151 Europa Mono / Rotax 914 AC reg.: OY-GDS Phone.: +45 8695 0595 E mail: lgds@post6.tele.dk ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] From: Hi Jos Glad to hear you are home and in good spirits! Best wishes on your recovery, keep giving everyone hell! "From a good source i learned that mogas or avgas, spayed, sprikled or throw at/on hot surfaces will not ignite." Your source is not good, but in fact very bad. See: http://contrails.free.fr/engine_burn_baby_burn_en.php It is true that oil has a lower auto-ignition temperature than 100LL, but get fuel to 500 degrees F and it will auto-ignite! Get Evans to 700F and it too will auto-ignite. The exhaust can reach auto-ignition temperature for oil, fuel and coolant. You can't plan for all trauma that may happen in a aircraft, but IMHO it is bad practice to use aluminium fittings firewall forward. Brass is better, SS or steel better yet. Aluminium has more of a chance of failing and be the cause. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:23 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Gemini engine From: Fred Klein If anyone has interest in the Gemini 100/turbo125 diesel I'd be happy to forward a lengthy email I've just received from Tim Archer, president of Powerplant Development, LCC after querying him on the engines' status and development schedule. Gemini had been announced at Oshkosh 2007 and there was a notice in a Europa Flyer a while back...I was curious after no additional information was forthcoming. Financing and market conditions have been factors; the company has memorandums of understanding with nine airframe manufacturers with an additional eight pending to install and evaluate the Gemini in their aircraft. Initial production is in Hastings, UK with plans for a follow on production line in US within 24 months. Email me off list. Cheers, Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:04 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Gemini engine From: "Christoph Both" Please send the lengthy message along. Thanks, Christoph Both #223 Canada -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:39 AM Subject: Europa-List: Gemini engine If anyone has interest in the Gemini 100/turbo125 diesel I'd be happy to forward a lengthy email I've just received from Tim Archer, president of Powerplant Development, LCC after querying him on the engines' status and development schedule. Gemini had been announced at Oshkosh 2007 and there was a notice in a Europa Flyer a while back...I was curious after no additional information was forthcoming. Financing and market conditions have been factors; the company has memorandums of understanding with nine airframe manufacturers with an additional eight pending to install and evaluate the Gemini in their aircraft. Initial production is in Hastings, UK with plans for a follow on production line in US within 24 months. Email me off list. Cheers, Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:36 AM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Gemini engine You can send me one as well. Thanks, Jeff R. A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 153 hours and climbing slowly. On Sep 13, 2008, at 10:18 AM, Christoph Both wrote: > > > Please send the lengthy message along. > Thanks, > Christoph Both > #223 > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Klein > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:39 AM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Gemini engine > > > If anyone has interest in the Gemini 100/turbo125 diesel I'd be happy > to forward a lengthy email I've just received from Tim Archer, > president of Powerplant Development, LCC after querying him on the > engines' status and development schedule. Gemini had been announced at > Oshkosh 2007 and there was a notice in a Europa Flyer a while back...I > was curious after no additional information was forthcoming. > > Financing and market conditions have been factors; the company has > memorandums of understanding with nine airframe manufacturers with an > additional eight pending to install and evaluate the Gemini in their > aircraft. Initial production is in Hastings, UK with plans for a follow > on production line in US within 24 months. > > Email me off list. > > Cheers, > > Fred > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:49 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] From: "josok" Hi Ron, My information is right. The site you mention, which impresses by its scientific odor has been proved questionable before. My own experience, long ago, driving fast on a motorway. Wondering where the fuel smell came from. Nobody in front me, decided to stop and check. Opened the hood, and saw fuel spraying from a broken fuel line straight onto the hotspot, hissing away. Your preference for brass over aluminium is great, but did you remember to change the carburettors? How about the oil pump? Ah, and the carter, barrelss? Sorry, just joking :-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] From: Hi Jos Gilles was kind enough to put "my test information" on his site. Your information is absolutely incorrect. If you reach the auto-ignition temperature, that is the temperature that the substance will auto ignite. Your experience and subsequent conclusion that since fuel squirted in your car and didn't ignite, thus that must be the worst case scenario, is not in fact the case. First off what was the percentage of power your motor was making and for how long? I know if I drive my Volvo Turbo Wagon at 75MPH on flat ground and if I pull right over the exhaust manifold is just barely glowing. If I tote my balloon trailer and set manifold pressure to 29.92 inches, lets say I am making 45% power, yikes if I pull over I can easily read from the glow of the manifold that is way beyond red hot! If you take a 914 that is tooting at 115% power for a minute, I am certain it is a lot hotter than my 45% powered Volvo and I can say without hesitation if you spew fuel on it it will auto ignite. My gut feeling is 65% power on a 914 is plenty to heat turbo/manifold to auto-ignition. As far as my preference for non aluminium fittings FWF, it is the same preference as local DAR and IA aeroplane mechanics. They have seen plenty of fittings fail. Remember that the fittings are the interface between a stationary airframe and a wiggling motor. Fatigue cracking is a lot more common than you may think according to their experience. Yes a carb and other motor items are aluminium, but the stresses imposed are often reasonable. In addition to fatigue cracking, aluminium will fail far easier than steel if you stress. Give a try of an aluminium and also a steel barb fitting stressed to failure and you will see what I mean. Your motor can wiggle around an awful lot if prop gets out of balance, or if fuel distribution is compromised or a cylinder fails to fire properly for whatever reason, or if you put a trauma to your aeroplane. Ron Parigoris BTW I just went out with my Volvo Turbo Wagon, climbed up a 1/4 mile long hill that is bout 200 feet high with about 34 inches MP, pulled over on a side street, and poured a half a soda cap filled with fuel on the manifold with motor off, instant ignition! My test on Gilles site was with 100LL, this one was with 92 octane mogas. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:28 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: emergency exits [was: Re: Jos Okhuisen] From: "Frans Veldman" [quote:f6ee39b1f3="josok"]Hi Ron, My own experience, long ago, driving fast on a motorway. Wondering where the fuel smell came from. Nobody in front me, decided to stop and check. Opened the hood, and saw fuel spraying from a broken fuel line straight onto the hotspot, hissing away. [/quote:f6ee39b1f3] My experience, trying to start an engine. I had used the choke too much. The cylinders were soaked with fuel, and the spark plugs were sparking, but nothing happened. The lesson here is that you can't ignite gas with a spark. :shock: Nonsens of course. Gas will ignite, if the circumstances are right. It depends on temperature, gas/air mixture ratio, etc. A hot surface will ignite gas, if the temperature is high enough, and if the mass of the hot surface is large enough (so that the vaporizing fuel doesn't lower the temperature below the ignition point) and the air/gas mixture is not too far off. Fuel is a risk, as is oil or any other combustible material. In general, the easier substance will vaporize, the easier it will ignite and cause enough heat to vaporize some more, etc. Aluminium fuel lines are a risk too. With the wrong length, it will resonance and quickly fail. Even professionals will fall into this trap: the Thielert engine had a few failures with cracked fuel lines, finally leading to an AD to replace them. With our homebuilts, we can never be sure if there is no particular length of aluminium that doesn't resonate on an engine vibration, or fuselage flexing. Of course rubber fuel hoses have their own risks as well, mainly due to aging. But replace them once in a while and you are pretty safe. You can't avoid the use of hoses anyway as the final connection to the engine can't be a solid line. Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:32 PM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: Europa-List: Starboard spar pin bush Just wondering if anyone has, or is considering, replacing the Starboard bush in the starboard wing with a nut or threaded plate, to allow more positive location of the spars on that side, which might also allow for easier rigging, obviously it would need to have a diameter less than 12mm (half inch) if the port wing bushes are to be unchanged. Craig ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:42 PM PST US From: "Peter Zutrauen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Starboard spar pin bush I may be misunderstanding the suggestion, but if the proposal is to introduce threads onto the main spar pins, I would suggest that treads may introduce a shear-point in the pin, weakening it substantially. I would suggest staying with the std factory smooth pins. JMHO, YMMV, etc, etc.... Cheers, Pete A239 On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:27 PM, craig bastin wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone has, or is considering, replacing the Starboard > bush in the starboard wing with a nut > or threaded plate, to allow more positive location of the spars on that > side, which might also allow for easier > rigging, obviously it would need to have a diameter less than 12mm (half > inch) if the port wing bushes are to be > unchanged. > > Craig > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Starboard spar pin bush From: "raggi6771" My thought was to leave the front 80% (or so) of the original bushing in the wing spar and then the nut or threaded plate on the back of the spar and a tapered thread on the new pin from the 12mm down just enough to allow a nice lock up of the spar into the seat back. and then set the clearance with washers in the same way as the port side pip pin. Looking at the clearance I believe this would be do-able with a small relief in the starboard quick connect plate to allow the nut/ plate to slide past. 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