---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/27/08: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:44 AM - Monowheel Towbar + Handling device (UVTReith) 2. 07:07 AM - Re: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! (glenn crowder) 3. 09:23 AM - Re: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! (Peter Zutrauen) 4. 10:44 AM - Re: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! (glenn crowder) 5. 11:29 AM - Re: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! (Fred Klein) 6. 11:42 AM - Re: No wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! (Fred Klein) 7. 04:08 PM - Re: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! (Graham Singleton) 8. 08:02 PM - Monowheel carrier landings () 9. 08:17 PM - Re: Monowheel carrier landings (Robert Borger) 10. 10:18 PM - Re: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! (glenn crowder) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:44:57 AM PST US From: "UVTReith" Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel Towbar + Handling device Hi Europa Family, In Europa Flyer 55 from December 07 Remi Guerner presents his Monowheel Towbar. It is easy to make, light weighting and costs nearly nothing. This Towbar is really good. The dimensions are in mm (1" = 25,4mm) Please see attached file Walter Swoboda made a device to move his Monowheel around the hangar. He is using a SS square tube, cut to size and shape and just added small wheels to this. This device you can use, when you do not have the fairings on. The FTA document is the supplier of the twin swivel wheel (50 mm DIA) plus clamping sleeve to suit the square tube and the wheel stud. Also these dimensions are in mm- Please see attached files Have a nice time and always a safe flying. Best Regards, Bruno Europa Aircraft Germany ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:30 AM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! This is an incredible concept that has not been utilized IMO. The joined wing concept is the most efficient per NASA studies http://www.aoe.vt.edu/design/ikelos/ as it eliminates the draggy tip vortic es that plague all other designs. The Stratos has an L/D of 19/1 and the original needed flaps to degrade the glide enough to allow a steeper landing approach. You have effective sailplane efficiency in a very compact planform. In addition the wings can be made much lighter as the joined wing at the tips adds great strength. The lower wing is totally flat with no di hedral making it easy to build. The upper wing needs no twist and uses 2 deg dihedral. Other advantages are much stronger pilot /passengers protection due to the cage type construction=2C wide tolerance of CG changes and greater tolerance for gusty conditions due to the short wings. On the sim it is possible to take off with the stick full back=2C just wait for rotation and the a/c will just climb away bobbing its nose with full roll and yaw control. Fully aerobatic too but pitch sensiti vity is a little much for landing in this mode=2C easily corrected with a pitch limiter for landing. Don't see why the concept coul dn't work for crowd killers as well as the short wings should allow twice as many gates at the terminal. Very cool pic: http://www.ligeti-stratos.com/assets/images/hg_3_big.jpg From: craigb@onthenet.com.auTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Europ a-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different!Date: S at=2C 27 Sep 2008 11:14:23 +1000 How weird is that=2C the design is very close to one I was considering to s cratch build before i started on my XS=2C glad to know it will fly ok=2C I didnt think anyone else would like such a departure from the "n orm"=2C my only concern was where to put the prop=2C I was thinking about belt drive ducted fans between the two wings -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of glenn crowderSent: Friday=2C 26 September 2008 4:38 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Eu ropa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! Wo uld love to build this one in my spare time. Original was 78 sq ft and 172 lbs with engine. I have scaled it up to 110 sq ft=2C built it in X-plane with 50 hp=2C goes 160 mph=2C flies wonderful using NACA 23012 airfoil=2C s talls at 35=2C although it just does the canard stall=2C bobbing it's nose gently in the breeze. http://www.ligeti-stratos.com/ Glenn designs... any others out there?From: fklein@orcasonline.comTo: europa-list @matronics.com On Thursday=2C Sep 25=2C 2008=2C at 08:11 US/Pacific=2C rick wrote: Just as a matter of interest could I turn a Mono on my short=2C very bumpy =2C grass strip (max 20' wide with no turning area) after backtracking in a strong wind. I sometimes have trouble with my trike using full braking on one wheel! !!...touche'...that needle do twist nicely...ouch...always nice to recognise the depth of our commitment to our respective decisions...pit y we tend to cloak ourselves in claims of rationality for what is=2C IMO=2C an essentially irrational enterprise...but I love this thread which again =2C IMO=2C celebrates the extreme flexibility of a wonderful airframe which sees such variety (mono=2C trigear=2C conventional taildragger=2C short wi ngs/long wings=2C Rotax=2C Soobs=2C Jabs=2C CAM/Honda=2C Smart Brabus=2C O- 200=2C and =3B --> See how Windows connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are part of your life. See Now href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie .. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:50 AM PST US From: "Peter Zutrauen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! Very slick design - but one question: As the original designer died in it in a "stall accident" what are the changes that you have made in the x-plane version from his original which has made it stall-proof (ala canard), while his obviously was not? Cheers, Pete A239 On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 10:06 AM, glenn crowder wrote: > This is an incredible concept that has not been utilized IMO. The > joined wing concept is the most efficient per NASA studies > http://www.aoe.vt.edu/design/ikelos/ as it eliminates the draggy tip > vortices that plague all other designs. The Stratos has > an L/D of 19/1 and the original needed flaps to degrade the glide enough to > allow a steeper landing approach. You have > effective sailplane efficiency in a very compact planform. In addition the > wings can be made much lighter as the joined wing > at the tips adds great strength. The lower wing is totally flat with no > dihedral making it easy to build. The upper wing needs > no twist and uses 2 deg dihedral. Other advantages are much stronger > pilot/passengers protection due to the cage type construction, > wide tolerance of CG changes and greater tolerance for gusty conditions due > to the short wings. > > On the sim it is possible to take off with the stick full back, just wait > for rotation and the a/c will just climb away bobbing its > nose with full roll and yaw control. Fully aerobatic too but pitch > sensitivity is a little much for landing in this mode, easily > corrected with a pitch limiter for landing. Don't see why the concept > couldn't work for crowd killers as well as the short wings > should allow twice as many gates at the terminal. > > Very cool pic: http://www.ligeti-stratos.com/assets/images/hg_3_big.jpg > > > ------------------------------ > > From: craigb@onthenet.com.au > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's > different! > Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 11:14:23 +1000 > > > How weird is that, the design is very close to one I was considering to > scratch build before i started on my XS, glad to know it will > fly ok, I didnt think anyone else would like such a departure from the > "norm", my only concern was where to put the prop, I was thinking > about belt drive ducted fans between the two wings > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of *glenn crowder > *Sent:* Friday, 26 September 2008 4:38 AM > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Europa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's > different! > > Would love to build this one in my spare time. Original was 78 sq ft and > 172 lbs with engine. I have scaled it up to 110 sq ft, built it in X-plane > with 50 hp, goes 160 mph, flies wonderful using NACA 23012 airfoil, stalls > at 35, although it just does the canard stall, bobbing it's nose gently in > the breeze. > > http://www.ligeti-stratos.com/ > > Glenn > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:26:09 -0700 > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel designs... any others out there? > From: fklein@orcasonline.com > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > On Thursday, Sep 25, 2008, at 08:11 US/Pacific, rick wrote: > > > Just as a matter of interest could I turn a Mono on my short, very bumpy, > grass strip (max 20' wide with no turning area) after backtracking in a > strong wind. I sometimes have trouble with my trike using full braking on > one wheel! > !!...*touche'*...that needle do twist nicely...*ouch*...always nice to > recognise the depth of our commitment to our respective decisions...pity we > tend to cloak ourselves in claims of rationality for what is, IMO, an > essentially irrational enterprise...but I love this thread which again, IMO, > celebrates the extreme flexibility of a wonderful airframe which sees such > variety (mono, trigear, conventional taildragger, short wings/long wings, > Rotax, Soobs, Jabs, CAM/Honda, Smart Brabus, O-200, and ; --> > ------------------------------ > See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of > your life. See Now > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > * target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ttp://forums.matronics.com > =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > ------------------------------ > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from Jamie. Learn > Now > > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:07 AM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! Don't know the exact answer but the designer was not killed while flying th e original prototype. The original proto is still flying and is flown by C harles son=2C Ron Ligeti=2C an aeronautical engineer=2C who is reverse engineering the pr ototype to create new open source plans that will be available on the websi te. According to the site=2C Charles was test flying a new larger version to be come a kit version of the a/c. "A channel or third wing was added to the fuselage. The bottom of the chann el blended into the duct. Two different accounts of the purpose of the duct have been advanced: Ron Ligeti=92s interpretation is that the ducted fan d rew air over the channel to create a low pressure area and increase lift. R omeo Garcia=2C a member of the original construction team=2C reports that t he purpose was to channel more air into the duct for improved propulsion. I t is believed that one or more of these modifications changed the stall cha racteristics significantly=2C possibly by occluding or creating turbulence ahead of the duct at a high angle of attack." I have a theory that the rhino rudder as installed on the proto to yaw the plane for landing without banking might behave unpredictably in a high angl e stall scenario but thats just my speculation. On the sim I have eliminated the rhino rudder a nd gone to a retractable tri gear setup to allow more ground clearance for a larger prop. I can attach the sim for X-plane V7 if anyone is interested but it will hav e to wait until I get a new hard disk for my desktop as it got hammered yes terday! -list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Europa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing b iplane - this one's different! Very slick design - but one question: As the original designer died in it i n a "stall accident" what are the changes that you have made in the x-plane version from his original which has made it stall-proof (ala canard)=2C wh ile his obviously was not? Cheers=2C Pete A239 On Sat=2C Sep 27=2C 2008 at 10:06 AM=2C glenn crowder wrote: This is an incredible concept that has not been utilized IMO. The joined wing concept is the most efficient per NASA studies http://www.aoe.vt.edu/ design/ikelos/ as it eliminates the draggy tip vortices that plague all oth er designs. The Stratos hasan L/D of 19/1 and the original needed flaps to degrade the glide enough to allow a steeper landing approach. You haveeff ective sailplane efficiency in a very compact planform. In addition the wi ngs can be made much lighter as the joined wingat the tips adds great stren gth. The lower wing is totally flat with no dihedral making it easy to bui ld. The upper wing needsno twist and uses 2 deg dihedral. Other advantage s are much stronger pilot/passengers protection due to the cage type constr uction=2C wide tolerance of CG changes and greater tolerance for gusty cond itions due to the short wings. On the sim it is possible to take off with t he stick full back=2C just wait for rotation and the a/c will just climb aw ay bobbing itsnose with full roll and yaw control. Fully aerobatic too but pitch sensitivity is a little much for landing in this mode=2C easilycorre cted with a pitch limiter for landing. Don't see why the concept couldn't work for crowd killers as well as the short wingsshould allow twice as many gates at the terminal. Very cool pic: http://www.ligeti-stratos.com/assets /images/hg_3_big.jpg From: craigb@onthenet.com.au ing wing biplane - this one's different!Date: Sat=2C 27 Sep 2008 11:14:23 + 1000 How weird is that=2C the design is very close to one I was considering to s cratch build before i started on my XS=2C glad to know it will fly ok=2C I didnt think anyone else would like such a departure from the "n orm"=2C my only concern was where to put the prop=2C I was thinking about belt drive ducted fans between the two wings -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of glenn crowderSent: Friday=2C 26 September 2008 4:38 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Eu ropa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! Wo uld love to build this one in my spare time. Original was 78 sq ft and 172 lbs with engine. I have scaled it up to 110 sq ft=2C built it in X-plane with 50 hp=2C goes 160 mph=2C flies wonderful using NACA 23012 airfoil=2C s talls at 35=2C although it just does the canard stall=2C bobbing it's nose gently in the breeze. http://www.ligeti-stratos.com/ Glenn designs... any others out there?From: fklein@orcasonline.comTo: europa-list @matronics.comOn Thursday=2C Sep 25=2C 2008=2C at 08:11 US/Pacific=2C rick wrote: Just as a matter of interest could I turn a Mono on my short=2C very bumpy =2C grass strip (max 20' wide with no turning area) after backtracking in a strong wind. I sometimes have trouble with my trike using full braking on one wheel! !!...touche'...that needle do twist nicely...ouch...always nice to recognise the depth of our commitment to our respective decisions...pit y we tend to cloak ourselves in claims of rationality for what is=2C IMO=2C an essentially irrational enterprise...but I love this thread which again =2C IMO=2C celebrates the extreme flexibility of a wonderful airframe which sees such variety (mono=2C trigear=2C conventional taildragger=2C short wi ngs/long wings=2C Rotax=2C Soobs=2C Jabs=2C CAM/Honda=2C Smart Brabus=2C O- 200=2C and =3B --> See how Windows connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are part of your life. See Now href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Li st">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.mat ronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matroni cs.com/c target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from Jamie. Le arn Now _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC=2C the Web=2C and your mobile phone with Windows Live. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:29:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! From: Fred Klein On Saturday, Sep 27, 2008, at 09:22 US/Pacific, Peter Zutrauen wrote: > Very slick design - but one question: As the original designer died in > it in a "stall accident" what are the changes that you have made in > the x-plane version from his original which has made it stall-proof > (ala canard), while his obviously was not? Peter...if you check further into this, you'll find that the "stall accident" and fatality occurred in a 2nd prototype incorporating significant modifications from the original...Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:42:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: No wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! From: Fred Klein On Saturday, Sep 27, 2008, at 07:06 US/Pacific, glenn crowder wrote: > - > Very cool pic: http://www.ligeti-stratos.com/assets/images/hg_3_big.jpg Hey Glenn...here's yours truly in a precursor...LOL...Fred -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:08:53 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! Glenn 19 to 1 is not a very good L/D, the best gliders are up to 60 : 1 now. The glider boys have a mantra " TINSFOS!" there's no substitute for span, and a 60/1 glider has a span of around 30 metres. Induced drag is a function of the downwash angle, and lift is a function of downward momentum change. Lift equals mass of air deflected (by the wing) X velocity downwards squared. Not quite as simple as that but I hope that illustrates the point? The wing deflects a cylinder (elliptical section) of air and the bigger the cylinder the less the angle you need to deflect it. Trouble with tandem wings is that the following wing has to use air already deflected by the leading wing so it doubles the deflection and therefore doubles the induced drag. Now, canards are not unstallable. Very stall resistant but if you do have a stall it will be very resistant to unstalling. Known as a deep stall, not enough pitch authority to unstall the wing. Burt's microlite canard was very nice to fly but it was possible for a gust to stall both wings and nearly impossible to recover. Mike Melville did recover (from a spin) but lost around 7000 feet doing it. This is why our leader Burt gave up on canards. Graham glenn crowder wrote: > This is an incredible concept that has not been utilized IMO. The > joined wing concept is the most efficient per NASA studies > http://www.aoe.vt.edu/design/ikelos/ as it eliminates the draggy tip > vortices that plague all other designs. The Stratos has > an L/D of 19/1 and the original needed flaps to degrade the glide > enough to allow a steeper landing approach. You have > effective sailplane efficiency in a very compact planform. In > addition the wings can be made much lighter as the joined wing > at the tips adds great strength. The lower wing is totally flat with > no dihedral making it easy to build. The upper wing needs > no twist and uses 2 deg dihedral. Other advantages are much stronger > pilot/passengers protection due to the cage type construction, > wide tolerance of CG changes and greater tolerance for gusty > conditions due to the short wings. > > On the sim it is possible to take off with the stick full back, just > wait for rotation and the a/c will just climb away bobbing its > nose with full roll and yaw control. Fully aerobatic too but pitch > sensitivity is a little much for landing in this mode, easily > corrected with a pitch limiter for landing. Don't see why the concept > couldn't work for crowd killers as well as the short wings > should allow twice as many gates at the terminal. > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:25 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel carrier landings From: Must have been flown by Air Force pilots with all the trouble they had keeping it pinned on the deck. http://www.creativefission.com/Frame_MOV_Carrier320x240.html ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:58 PM PST US From: Robert Borger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel carrier landings Whooooo... I had heard about the U-2 carrier trials when I was in the USAF. That's the first video or pics of any sort I have seen of it. Pretty darn cool. They sure didn't need a catapult to get it back in the air. It only needs a couple hundred feet to be airborne. Thanks Ron! Check six, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (99.9% done) Presently fighting gremlins in the instrument panel. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 On Sep 27, 2008, at 22:01, rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: > > Must have been flown by Air Force pilots with all the trouble they had > keeping > it pinned on the deck. > > http://www.creativefission.com/Frame_MOV_Carrier320x240.html > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:20 PM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: RE: Europa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! Yes Graham thats all very good but we're talking about an aircraft that can fly point to point=2C airport to airport at 112 mph cruise=2C 1.2 gph yielding 93 miles/gal with no ground crew or tow plane. This was w ith a 24 hp Koenig two stroke. A four stroke would break 100 mpg. Also=2C 19/1 L/D is phenomenal for any type of powered a/c. Even the Europa barel y breaks 10/1 L/D. Also=2C after flying hang gliders sucessfully for 27 yrs (except for knocki ng out two front teeth - damn that hurt!) I can attest that it is very eas y to break a deep stall in a very lightweight aircraft by simply moving the pilot's upper body weight forward! @Peter=2C I remember now changing the airfoils from a Wortmann FX series to a NACA 23012. This was to reduce what I thought was excessive negative pitching moment in the a/c at higher speeds. With the 2 3012 there is almost no -Cmo requiring just conventional retrimming for higher speeds. Here is a page showing technical specs and d imensions for the Stratos: Specs: http://users.mo-net.com/shirl/LigetiStory.htm 3 view with dimensions: http://users.mo-net.com/shirl/Stratos3ViewWeb.jpg Glenn internet.com>> > Glenn> 19 to 1 is not a very good L/D=2C the best gliders are up to 60 : 1 now. > The glider boys have a mantra " TINSFOS!" there's n o substitute for > span=2C and a 60/1 glider has a span of around 30 metres .> Induced drag is a function of the downwash angle=2C and lift is a functi on > of downward momentum change. Lift equals mass of air deflected (by the > wing) X velocity downwards squared. Not quite as simple as that but I > hope that illustrates the point? The wing deflects a cylinder > (elliptical section) of air and the bigger the cylinder the less the > angle you need to deflect it. Trouble with tandem wings is that the > following wing has t o use air already deflected by the leading wing so > it doubles the deflect ion and therefore doubles the induced drag.> Now=2C canards are not unstall able. Very stall resistant but if you do > have a stall it will be very res istant to unstalling. Known as a deep > stall=2C not enough pitch authority to unstall the wing. Burt's microlite > canard was very nice to fly but it was possible for a gust to stall both > wings and nearly impossible to rec over. Mike Melville did recover (from > a spin) but lost around 7000 feet d oing it. This is why our leader Burt > gave up on canards.> Graham> glenn c rowder wrote:> > This is an incredible concept that has not been utilized I MO. The > > joined wing concept is the most efficient per NASA studies> > h ttp://www.aoe.vt.edu/design/ikelos/ as it eliminates the draggy tip > > vor tices that plague all other designs. The Stratos has> > an L/D of 19/1 and the original needed flaps to degrade the glide > > enough to allow a steepe r landing approach. You have> > effective sailplane efficiency in a very co mpact planform. In > > addition the wings can be made much lighter as the j oined wing> > at the tips adds great strength. The lower wing is totally fl at with > > no dihedral making it easy to build. The upper wing needs> > no twist and uses 2 deg dihedral. Other advantages are much stronger > > pilo t/passengers protection due to the cage type construction=2C> > wide tolera nce of CG changes and greater tolerance for gusty > > conditions due to the short wings.> > > > On the sim it is possible to take off with the stick f ull back=2C just > > wait for rotation and the a/c will just climb away bob bing its> > nose with full roll and yaw control. Fully aerobatic too but pi tch > > sensitivity is a little much for landing in this mode=2C easily> > corrected with a pitch limiter for landing. Don't see why the concept > > c ouldn't work for crowd killers as well as the short wings> > should allow t ====================> > > _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie .. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.