Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:48 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Graham Singleton)
2. 03:04 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Richard Collings)
3. 03:55 AM - Lithium Polymer start battery (Frans Veldman)
4. 04:51 AM - Re: Lithium Polymer start battery (craig bastin)
5. 08:41 AM - Stratos files for X-Plane (glenn crowder)
6. 08:54 AM - Mod 72 (jimpuglise@comcast.net)
7. 09:12 AM - Re: Lithium Polymer start battery (Frans Veldman)
8. 09:13 AM - Re: Mod 72 (Rob Housman)
9. 09:13 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Rob Housman)
10. 10:26 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Christoph Both)
11. 10:45 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Rob Housman)
12. 11:03 AM - Re: Mod 72 (pjeffers@talktalk.net)
13. 11:36 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening ()
14. 12:43 PM - Re: Lithium Polymer start battery (Thomas Scherer)
15. 01:32 PM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Graham Singleton)
16. 03:35 PM - Re: Lithium Polymer start battery (Frans Veldman)
17. 11:03 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
18. 11:13 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
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Subject: | Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening |
Erich Trombley wrote:
>
> Rob,
>
> Before hacking off the end of the insert I would try and first remove it using
a slide hammer. While you won't find a slide hammer at Home Depot they are
readily available at Harbor Freight or an auto body supply house. With the appropriate
attachment on the slide hammer the insert should be easily extracted
at which point the primer can be removed and the insert re-installed with wet
primer. Good luck.
>
> Erich Trombley
> N28ET Classic Mono 914
Rob
why don't you rig up a press? Length of screwed rod or a long set screw,
a socket of suitable ID over the protruding insert and a nut on the
other end, the tighten the nut and squeeze out the insert.
Graham
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Subject: | Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening |
Hi, Have you tried adapting a sash clamp to press the tube into the
hole. This is how I fitted mine but before mounting the frame in the
fuselage which made the job easer. You would need to cut the sash clamp
bar down to just the right length as the unused length would get in the
way.
Failing that remove the 2 fixing bolts holding the frame onto the
cockpit module and slide a suitable length high tensile bolt though the
tube put a large plate washer and nut on the end and as you tighten it
up you will draw the tube into the frame.
If you must use a hammer try to position a heavy weight behind what you
are hitting to act as a reaction. Best of luck Richard
From: Rob Housman
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
Craig & Martin:
Good suggestion in re: taking advantage of thermal effect on size.
However, in my case one pin is in and the other is far enough in to
preclude removal and starting over.
Prior to starting the Mod I measured both pins and confirmed that each
was less than 16.5mm (PRIOR to applying the etch primer) and not
tapered, and the hand reamer was fabricated by a local shop with whom
I've done business for a long time, and it is to size. Were it not for
the factory's instruction to paint the pins (and my foolishness in
following that suggestion) the pins would have fit easily.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig
bastin
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:07 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
If you can get the tubes out again, easier said than do probably, I
would suggest a shrink fit, if you are happy
the insert tubes are the same size as the ID of the tubes after
reaming then throwing the tubes in the freezer
and GENTLY heating the UC frame should give you the clearance you need
long enough to get them home
mine took about 4 decent taps and they were home, mind you i did use a
lathe and skimmed the tubes till they
were within .01mm, the heating/cooling dropped the tube size to about
.2mm smaller than the UC frame. I believe
quite a few have opted for this method with good results
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 12:52 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
Having been working mostly on those factory mandated or recommended
modifications of late, I now realize that it is much easier to build an
airplane than it is to repair one. Mod 70 (Mass balance arm) was merely
tedious, working deep in the tailcone, one handed, through small access
holes, but Mod 73 (Tailplane retention) and Mod 59 (Shimmy damper) did
not go well when following the written procedures, and now with Mod 72
there is more of that wonderful English understatement: "Insert the
tubes - they will probably need a light tap to fit them" it says in the
procedure. English hammers must be considerably larger and heavier than
American hammers (or 16.5 mm reamers must be a bit larger) because "a
light tap" does nothing. After pounding away for entirely too long, and
peening the ends of the tubes where the hammer repeatedly struck, I
finally fabricated a steel spud to put between the offending pin and the
hammer. This made it easier to keep pounding with less damage to the
pins, or to the adjacent smaller diameter tubes to which the engine
mounts attach if I were to miss the target. The steel spud is starting
to look like a mushroom from all of those "light taps."
I should have retained my initial skepticism regarding the fit of
painted tubes, which after painting with etch primer are larger than
16.5mm, but no, I foolishly believed that the factory had actually tried
this procedure. Well folks, the paint makes the pin almost impossible
to fit.
Fearing complaints from my neighbors about so much hammering on a
peaceful Sunday afternoon I finally quit pounding with the intention of
resuming mid-day today when most of my neighbors will be away at work.
As of yesterday afternoon one pin was snug against the bolt attaching
the frame to the fuselage and the other was still barely halfway home.
Now, if I could find one of those English hammers at Home Depot..
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
9/30/2008 11:03 AM
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Subject: | Lithium Polymer start battery |
The last few years there has been tremendous progress on the development of small
and light weight batteries.
Take this for example: a 11,1 Volt 5Ah battery, capable of providing 150 Amp crank
power, weighing only 0,384 Kg (for the non-metric guys: less than one pound,
do the math yourself).
[url]http://www.conrad.nl/goto.php?artikel 6604[/url]
The 11.1 volt is a bit of a disadvantage, with a nominal voltage of 3,7 Volts per
cell you have to choose between 11,1 volts or 14,8 volts. (The 14,8 Volt model
weights 0,5Kg). Note that this is the nominal voltage, a fully charged battery
will have a higher voltage. You will probably have to adapt the rectifier/regulator,
but given the significant weight savings, this could be worthwile.
Anyone tried this already?
Frans
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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Subject: | Lithium Polymer start battery |
I had heard they were available but hadnt been able to find any in
australia, I was looking
at the dry charge race car batteries which come in at around 1.5kg 13.5volt
7Ah with about 200CCA
cost is about $250 for them, which looks to be about the same as the LI-PO I
must try harder to find
the LI-PO batteries out here.
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Frans
Veldman
Sent: Wednesday, 1 October 2008 8:54 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Lithium Polymer start battery
<frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
The last few years there has been tremendous progress on the development of
small and light weight batteries.
Take this for example: a 11,1 Volt 5Ah battery, capable of providing 150 Amp
crank power, weighing only 0,384 Kg (for the non-metric guys: less than one
pound, do the math yourself).
[url]http://www.conrad.nl/goto.php?artikel 6604[/url]
The 11.1 volt is a bit of a disadvantage, with a nominal voltage of 3,7
Volts per cell you have to choose between 11,1 volts or 14,8 volts. (The
14,8 Volt model weights 0,5Kg). Note that this is the nominal voltage, a
fully charged battery will have a higher voltage. You will probably have to
adapt the rectifier/regulator, but given the significant weight savings,
this could be worthwile.
Anyone tried this already?
Frans
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
7:08 PM
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Subject: | Stratos files for X-Plane |
Hi Peter and Lance - I have attached the X-plane V7 Stratos .acf file. I s
ent the files to your personal email as Matronics will not accept anything
but basic .jpg=2C .bmp=2C .pdf type
files. If anyone else would like them=2C email me off list. The designati
on indicates 110 sq ft and 50 hp. The wings use the NACA 23012 low moment
.afl file=2C vstab uses NACA 0012 symmetrical .afl. On X-plane V7=2C the .
afl files used on a particular .acf file need to be in the same directory w
here the .acf file is located.I have added a bellyboard instead of flaps so
this uses the bellybord.afl file. On the version I have created=2C all co
ntrol surfaces are on the lower wing=2C making it much easier to build. Af
ter much experimentation I found that flaps really aren't necessary as they
only lowered stall speed a mph or so and there were four of them=2C adding
a lot of weight and complexity. The bellyboard is very effective at glide
path control=2C being much lighter and easier to construct. Just don't fo
rget to retract it in a go-around or touch and go! There is some kind of bu
g with the engine start as it won't start with the throttle at idle. Advan
ce the throttle about half and then hit the ignition key with your mouse.
Leave thebrakes on or else the plane will rocket forward! Set about two li
nes of up trim for TO. You don't have to pull any back stick as the plane
will rotate automatically about 80 kts=2C40 kts if you pull hard back stick
! The a/c will begin a slow long period pitch oscillation until you stabil
ize it with the stick. Raise the gear and as you climb=2C start reducing u
p trim.Stabilize the climb about 100 kts then at altitude=2C feed in down t
rim a bit at a time. Top speed will stabilize at 160 kts but it takes quit
e a while=2C the trim becoming extremelysensitive. Rolls are very axial=2C
loops are easy. The tip rudders work but there's a bug in that I can't fi
gure out how to make just one rudder deploy outwards while the other remain
s neutral. They both move together currently both left and right but still
work. They are really never needed in flight except to enter a spin as th
e a/c stays coordinatedall by itself. Try slowing down to 40 kts by reduc
ing throttle and adding up trim. At stall=2C the a/c will just bob its nos
e gently. You will still have roll control=2C although a bit sluggish.For
landing slow to 70 kts in the pattern=2C lower the gear=2C deploy the belly
bord - the nose will pop up briefly - then stablilze at about 65 kts. Leve
l out at the threshold and justgradually pull back stick until the mains hi
t then lower the nose. Don't pull too much back stick or it might take off
again briefly followed by a hard bounce. Very easy to fly overall=2Caerob
atic and mild mannered. I haven't got it to do anything nasty but maybe so
meone else can! I would be interested in any feedback. Hoping to use the
Axiro XR-50 engine=2C very light at 15 Kg=2C with a turbo'ed version used
recently on a world altitude record breaking flight on a powered PPG=2C fly
ing neatly overMt Everest in the process!
Glenn
er2@hotmail.comSubject: Re: Europa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing bipla
ne - this one's different!
Hi Glenn=2C
Thanks for the clarification=2C and I would definitely be interested in the
x-plane model. I'm hoping it will work on V9 - I think it should.
Cheers=2C
Pete
On Sat=2C Sep 27=2C 2008 at 1:42 PM=2C glenn crowder <gcrowder2@hotmail.com
> wrote:
Don't know the exact answer but the designer was not killed while flying th
e original prototype. The original proto is still flying and is flown by C
harles son=2CRon Ligeti=2C an aeronautical engineer=2C who is reverse engin
eering the prototype to create new open source plans that will be available
on the website. According to the site=2C Charles was test flying a new lar
ger version to become a kit version of the a/c. 'A channel or third wing w
as added to the fuselage. The bottom of the channel blended into the duct.
Two different accounts of the purpose of the duct have been advanced: Ron L
igeti's interpretation is that the ducted fan drew air over the channel to
create a low pressure area and increase lift. Romeo Garcia=2C a member of t
he original construction team=2C reports that the purpose was to channel mo
re air into the duct for improved propulsion. It is believed that one or mo
re of these modifications changed the stall characteristics significantly
=2C possibly by occluding or creating turbulence ahead of the duct at a hig
h angle of attack.' I have a theory that the rhino rudder as installed on t
he proto to yaw the plane for landing without banking might behave unpredic
tably in a high angle stall scenario butthats just my speculation. On the
sim I have eliminated the rhino rudder and gone to a retractable tri gear s
etup to allow more ground clearance for a larger prop.I can attach the sim
for X-plane V7 if anyone is interested but it will have to wait until I get
a new hard disk for my desktop as it got hammered yesterday!
ing wing biplane - this one's different!
Very slick design - but one question: As the original designer died in it i
n a 'stall accident' what are the changes that you have made in the x-plane
version from his original which has made it stall-proof (ala canard)=2C wh
ile his obviously was not?
Cheers=2C
Pete
A239
On Sat=2C Sep 27=2C 2008 at 10:06 AM=2C glenn crowder <gcrowder2@hotmail.co
m> wrote:
This is an incredible concept that has not been utilized IMO. The joined
wing concept is the most efficient per NASA studies http://www.aoe.vt.edu/
design/ikelos/ as it eliminates the draggy tip vortices that plague all oth
er designs. The Stratos hasan L/D of 19/1 and the original needed flaps to
degrade the glide enough to allow a steeper landing approach. You haveeff
ective sailplane efficiency in a very compact planform. In addition the wi
ngs can be made much lighter as the joined wingat the tips adds great stren
gth. The lower wing is totally flat with no dihedral making it easy to bui
ld. The upper wing needsno twist and uses 2 deg dihedral. Other advantage
s are much stronger pilot/passengers protection due to the cage type constr
uction=2C wide tolerance of CG changes and greater tolerance for gusty cond
itions due to the short wings. On the sim it is possible to take off with t
he stick full back=2C just wait for rotation and the a/c will just climb aw
ay bobbing itsnose with full roll and yaw control. Fully aerobatic too but
pitch sensitivity is a little much for landing in this mode=2C easilycorre
cted with a pitch limiter for landing. Don't see why the concept couldn't
work for crowd killers as well as the short wingsshould allow twice as many
gates at the terminal. Very cool pic: http://www.ligeti-stratos.com/assets
/images/hg_3_big.jpg
From: craigb@onthenet.com.au
ing wing biplane - this one's different!Date: Sat=2C 27 Sep 2008 11:14:23 +
1000
How weird is that=2C the design is very close to one I was considering to s
cratch build before i started on my XS=2C glad to know it will
fly ok=2C I didnt think anyone else would like such a departure from the 'n
orm'=2C my only concern was where to put the prop=2C I was thinking
about belt drive ducted fans between the two wings
-----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai
lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of glenn crowderSent:
Friday=2C 26 September 2008 4:38 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Eu
ropa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! Wo
uld love to build this one in my spare time. Original was 78 sq ft and 172
lbs with engine. I have scaled it up to 110 sq ft=2C built it in X-plane
with 50 hp=2C goes 160 mph=2C flies wonderful using NACA 23012 airfoil=2C s
talls at 35=2C although it just does the canard stall=2C bobbing it's nose
gently in the breeze. http://www.ligeti-stratos.com/
Glenn
designs... any others out there?From: fklein@orcasonline.comTo: europa-list
@matronics.comOn Thursday=2C Sep 25=2C 2008=2C at 08:11 US/Pacific=2C rick
wrote:
Just as a matter of interest could I turn a Mono on my short=2C very bumpy
=2C grass strip (max 20' wide with no turning area) after backtracking in a
strong wind. I sometimes have trouble with my trike using full braking on
one wheel! !!...touche'...that needle do twist nicely...ouch...always nice
to recognise the depth of our commitment to our respective decisions...pit
y we tend to cloak ourselves in claims of rationality for what is=2C IMO=2C
an essentially irrational enterprise...but I love this thread which again
=2C IMO=2C celebrates the extreme flexibility of a wonderful airframe which
sees such variety (mono=2C trigear=2C conventional taildragger=2C short wi
ngs/long wings=2C Rotax=2C Soobs=2C Jabs=2C CAM/Honda=2C Smart Brabus=2C O-
200=2C and =3B -->
See how Windows connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are part
of your life. See Now href='http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Li
st'>http://www.matronhref='http://forums.matronics.com'>http://forums.mat
ronics.comhref='http://www.matronics.com/contribution'>http://www.matroni
cs.com/c target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listttp
://forums.matronics.com=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn '10 hidden secrets' from Jamie. Le
arn Now
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listttp://forums
.matronics.com=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Stay up to date on your PC=2C the Web=2C and ymsnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/
01/' target='_new'>See Now
================
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on
the go. See Now
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie
. Learn Now
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are part
of your life.
Message 6
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I just completed Mod 72 and I can't believe how easy it was. The reaming took
no more than 5 minutes, I kept the inserts in the freezer overnight, heated the
reamed pieces, applied ACF-50 to the inserts and in they went. It took two
taps from a US made hammer to move them the last 1/2 inch or so.
If you lay the inserts beside the reamer, you can put a mark on the shank with
a felt pen indicating how deep it must go. I marked it so, excluding the tapered
end from the measurement and it went to that depth with no problem. Blew
the swarf out and in they went.
The whole process took 20 minutes or so.
Jim Puglise, A-283
<html><body>
<DIV>I just completed Mod 72 and I can't believe how easy it was. The reaming
took no more than 5 minutes, I kept the inserts in the freezer overnight,
heated the reamed pieces, applied ACF-50 to the inserts and in they went.
It took two taps from a US made hammer to move them the last 1/2 inch or so.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you lay the inserts beside the reamer, you can put a mark on
the shank with a felt pen indicating how deep it must go. I marked it so,
excluding the tapered end from the measurement and it went to that depth with
no problem. Blew the swarf out and in they went. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The whole process took 20 minutes or so.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jim Puglise, A-283</DIV>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
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Subject: | Re: Lithium Polymer start battery |
craig bastin wrote:
>
> I had heard they were available but hadnt been able to find any in
> australia, I was looking
> at the dry charge race car batteries which come in at around 1.5kg 13.5volt
> 7Ah with about 200CCA
> cost is about $250 for them, which looks to be about the same as the LI-PO I
> must try harder to find
> the LI-PO batteries out here.
If it is 13,5 volt, it is not a LI-PO battery. Most likely it is a NiCd
or something quite similar. They are difficult for aircraft use as they
need a constant current charge, rather than a constant voltage charge.
What I'm considering now is to use the 11.1 Volt LI-PO battery solely
for starting the engine, and running the main fuel pump (Rotax 914).
These are happy with this voltage. The rest of the system will run on
the normal voltage as delivered by the alternator, backupped with a
lead-acid battery. As the lead-acid battery is now only intended to be a
backup for the avionics, and the backup fuel pump (914), only in case
the alternator fails, it can be much smaller (thus lighter). This setup
will save considerable weight, and add redundancy as well.
Frans Veldman
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I'm envious.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jimpuglise@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:54 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72
I just completed Mod 72 and I can't believe how easy it was. The reaming
took no more than 5 minutes, I kept the inserts in the freezer overnight,
heated the reamed pieces, applied ACF-50 to the inserts and in they went.
It took two taps from a US made hammer to move them the last 1/2 inch or so.
If you lay the inserts beside the reamer, you can put a mark on the shank
with a felt pen indicating how deep it must go. I marked it so, excluding
the tapered end from the measurement and it went to that depth with no
problem. Blew the swarf out and in they went.
The whole process took 20 minutes or so.
Jim Puglise, A-283
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Subject: | Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening |
Erich, Graham, and Richard:
Removal, with the insert now more than halfway in would likely be a real
chore, so for now at least I'll continue on with the brute force approach.
I have considered rigging a press and still may do so. However, based on my
experience with Mod 73 where I used a similar scheme to extract my dummy
torque tube after a small amount of epoxy managed to get where it should not
be, and that threaded rod's 1/4-20 NSC threads were severely damaged, I fear
that the force needed would be greater than the strength of the largest
threaded rod that would fit through the ID of the insert.
I think the sash clamp would have a better chance of success since the
threaded portion (with high strength Acme thread) would be in compression
not tension as for the scheme noted above, but I'll defer that pending
further hammering.
With about 1.3 inch remaining to hammer in, and modest application of heat
to the landing gear frame helping, I have made sufficient progress to keep
pounding onward, so to speak. Progress is slow using heat because heat
works only when there is a temperature differential and the insert soon
reaches the same temperature as the frame thus requiring a waiting period
while both get back to ambient temperature. Heat, hammer, cuss, wait.
Repeat as required.
I hope that this discussion will help others that have yet to tackle Mod 72,
though with almost two years having elapsed since the Mod was announced I am
probably the last to have this much fun.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Collings
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 3:04 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
Hi, Have you tried adapting a sash clamp to press the tube into the hole.
This is how I fitted mine but before mounting the frame in the fuselage
which made the job easer. You would need to cut the sash clamp bar down to
just the right length as the unused length would get in the way.
Failing that remove the 2 fixing bolts holding the frame onto the cockpit
module and slide a suitable length high tensile bolt though the tube put a
large plate washer and nut on the end and as you tighten it up you will draw
the tube into the frame.
If you must use a hammer try to position a heavy weight behind what you are
hitting to act as a reaction. Best of luck Richard
From: Rob Housman <mailto:rob@hyperion-ef.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
Craig & Martin:
Good suggestion in re: taking advantage of thermal effect on size. However,
in my case one pin is in and the other is far enough in to preclude removal
and starting over.
Prior to starting the Mod I measured both pins and confirmed that each was
less than 16.5mm (PRIOR to applying the etch primer) and not tapered, and
the hand reamer was fabricated by a local shop with whom I've done business
for a long time, and it is to size. Were it not for the factory's
instruction to paint the pins (and my foolishness in following that
suggestion) the pins would have fit easily.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:07 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
If you can get the tubes out again, easier said than do probably, I would
suggest a shrink fit, if you are happy
the insert tubes are the same size as the ID of the tubes after reaming then
throwing the tubes in the freezer
and GENTLY heating the UC frame should give you the clearance you need long
enough to get them home
mine took about 4 decent taps and they were home, mind you i did use a lathe
and skimmed the tubes till they
were within .01mm, the heating/cooling dropped the tube size to about .2mm
smaller than the UC frame. I believe
quite a few have opted for this method with good results
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 12:52 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening
Having been working mostly on those factory mandated or recommended
modifications of late, I now realize that it is much easier to build an
airplane than it is to repair one. Mod 70 (Mass balance arm) was merely
tedious, working deep in the tailcone, one handed, through small access
holes, but Mod 73 (Tailplane retention) and Mod 59 (Shimmy damper) did not
go well when following the written procedures, and now with Mod 72 there is
more of that wonderful English understatement: "Insert the tubes - they will
probably need a light tap to fit them" it says in the procedure. English
hammers must be considerably larger and heavier than American hammers (or
16.5 mm reamers must be a bit larger) because "a light tap" does nothing.
After pounding away for entirely too long, and peening the ends of the tubes
where the hammer repeatedly struck, I finally fabricated a steel spud to put
between the offending pin and the hammer. This made it easier to keep
pounding with less damage to the pins, or to the adjacent smaller diameter
tubes to which the engine mounts attach if I were to miss the target. The
steel spud is starting to look like a mushroom from all of those "light
taps."
I should have retained my initial skepticism regarding the fit of painted
tubes, which after painting with etch primer are larger than 16.5mm, but no,
I foolishly believed that the factory had actually tried this procedure.
Well folks, the paint makes the pin almost impossible to fit.
Fearing complaints from my neighbors about so much hammering on a peaceful
Sunday afternoon I finally quit pounding with the intention of resuming
mid-day today when most of my neighbors will be away at work. As of
yesterday afternoon one pin was snug against the bolt attaching the frame to
the fuselage and the other was still barely halfway home.
Now, if I could find one of those English hammers at Home Depot..
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
_____
- - Release Date: 9/30/2008 11:03 AM
Message 10
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Subject: | Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening |
Rob,
While flash heating the outer tube insert at the last moment a deep
frozen closely fitting item into the inner tube. This, for a few seconds
will allow differential expansion and contraction of both parts.
Hope this works.
Christoph Both
#223
Wolfville, Nova Scotia
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:13 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
Erich, Graham, and Richard:
Removal, with the insert now more than halfway in would likely be a real
chore, so for now at least I'll continue on with the brute force
approach.
I have considered rigging a press and still may do so. However, based on
my experience with Mod 73 where I used a similar scheme to extract my
dummy torque tube after a small amount of epoxy managed to get where it
should not be, and that threaded rod's 1/4-20 NSC threads were severely
damaged, I fear that the force needed would be greater than the strength
of the largest threaded rod that would fit through the ID of the insert.
I think the sash clamp would have a better chance of success since the
threaded portion (with high strength Acme thread) would be in
compression not tension as for the scheme noted above, but I'll defer
that pending further hammering.
With about 1.3 inch remaining to hammer in, and modest application of
heat to the landing gear frame helping, I have made sufficient progress
to keep pounding onward, so to speak. Progress is slow using heat
because heat works only when there is a temperature differential and the
insert soon reaches the same temperature as the frame thus requiring a
waiting period while both get back to ambient temperature. Heat,
hammer, cuss, wait. Repeat as required.
I hope that this discussion will help others that have yet to tackle Mod
72, though with almost two years having elapsed since the Mod was
announced I am probably the last to have this much fun.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Collings
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 3:04 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
Hi, Have you tried adapting a sash clamp to press the tube into the
hole. This is how I fitted mine but before mounting the frame in the
fuselage which made the job easer. You would need to cut the sash clamp
bar down to just the right length as the unused length would get in the
way.
Failing that remove the 2 fixing bolts holding the frame onto the
cockpit module and slide a suitable length high tensile bolt though the
tube put a large plate washer and nut on the end and as you tighten it
up you will draw the tube into the frame.
If you must use a hammer try to position a heavy weight behind what you
are hitting to act as a reaction. Best of luck Richard
From: Rob Housman <mailto:rob@hyperion-ef.com>
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
Craig & Martin:
Good suggestion in re: taking advantage of thermal effect on
size. However, in my case one pin is in and the other is far enough in
to preclude removal and starting over.
Prior to starting the Mod I measured both pins and confirmed
that each was less than 16.5mm (PRIOR to applying the etch primer) and
not tapered, and the hand reamer was fabricated by a local shop with
whom I've done business for a long time, and it is to size. Were it not
for the factory's instruction to paint the pins (and my foolishness in
following that suggestion) the pins would have fit easily.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig
bastin
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:07 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
If you can get the tubes out again, easier said than do
probably, I would suggest a shrink fit, if you are happy
the insert tubes are the same size as the ID of the tubes after
reaming then throwing the tubes in the freezer
and GENTLY heating the UC frame should give you the clearance
you need long enough to get them home
mine took about 4 decent taps and they were home, mind you i did
use a lathe and skimmed the tubes till they
were within .01mm, the heating/cooling dropped the tube size to
about .2mm smaller than the UC frame. I believe
quite a few have opted for this method with good results
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 12:52 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting
frame strengthening
Having been working mostly on those factory mandated or
recommended modifications of late, I now realize that it is much easier
to build an airplane than it is to repair one. Mod 70 (Mass balance
arm) was merely tedious, working deep in the tailcone, one handed,
through small access holes, but Mod 73 (Tailplane retention) and Mod 59
(Shimmy damper) did not go well when following the written procedures,
and now with Mod 72 there is more of that wonderful English
understatement: "Insert the tubes - they will probably need a light tap
to fit them" it says in the procedure. English hammers must be
considerably larger and heavier than American hammers (or 16.5 mm
reamers must be a bit larger) because "a light tap" does nothing. After
pounding away for entirely too long, and peening the ends of the tubes
where the hammer repeatedly struck, I finally fabricated a steel spud to
put between the offending pin and the hammer. This made it easier to
keep pounding with less damage to the pins, or to the adjacent smaller
diameter tubes to which the engine mounts attach if I were to miss the
target. The steel spud is starting to look like a mushroom from all of
those "light taps."
I should have retained my initial skepticism regarding
the fit of painted tubes, which after painting with etch primer are
larger than 16.5mm, but no, I foolishly believed that the factory had
actually tried this procedure. Well folks, the paint makes the pin
almost impossible to fit.
Fearing complaints from my neighbors about so much
hammering on a peaceful Sunday afternoon I finally quit pounding with
the intention of resuming mid-day today when most of my neighbors will
be away at work. As of yesterday afternoon one pin was snug against the
bolt attaching the frame to the fuselage and the other was still barely
halfway home.
Now, if I could find one of those English hammers at
Home Depot....
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
________________________________
- - Release Date: 9/30/2008 11:03 AM
Message 11
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|
Subject: | Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening |
While your suggestion is valid there's the matter of first getting the
offending tube back out of the landing gear frame in order to chill it, so
I'm stuck (a deliberate choice of words) with using heat on the outside and
not cooling the insert. Unfortunately I don't have a tank of compressed gas
handy so I can't take advantage of thermodynamics (isentropic throttling) to
provide a good chill to the ID of the insert in situ.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christoph Both
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:25 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
Rob,
While flash heating the outer tube insert at the last moment a deep frozen
closely fitting item into the inner tube. This, for a few seconds will allow
differential expansion and contraction of both parts.
Hope this works.
Christoph Both
#223
Wolfville, Nova Scotia
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:13 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
Erich, Graham, and Richard:
Removal, with the insert now more than halfway in would likely be a real
chore, so for now at least I'll continue on with the brute force approach.
I have considered rigging a press and still may do so. However, based on my
experience with Mod 73 where I used a similar scheme to extract my dummy
torque tube after a small amount of epoxy managed to get where it should not
be, and that threaded rod's 1/4-20 NSC threads were severely damaged, I fear
that the force needed would be greater than the strength of the largest
threaded rod that would fit through the ID of the insert.
I think the sash clamp would have a better chance of success since the
threaded portion (with high strength Acme thread) would be in compression
not tension as for the scheme noted above, but I'll defer that pending
further hammering.
With about 1.3 inch remaining to hammer in, and modest application of heat
to the landing gear frame helping, I have made sufficient progress to keep
pounding onward, so to speak. Progress is slow using heat because heat
works only when there is a temperature differential and the insert soon
reaches the same temperature as the frame thus requiring a waiting period
while both get back to ambient temperature. Heat, hammer, cuss, wait.
Repeat as required.
I hope that this discussion will help others that have yet to tackle Mod 72,
though with almost two years having elapsed since the Mod was announced I am
probably the last to have this much fun.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Collings
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 3:04 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
Hi, Have you tried adapting a sash clamp to press the tube into the hole.
This is how I fitted mine but before mounting the frame in the fuselage
which made the job easer. You would need to cut the sash clamp bar down to
just the right length as the unused length would get in the way.
Failing that remove the 2 fixing bolts holding the frame onto the cockpit
module and slide a suitable length high tensile bolt though the tube put a
large plate washer and nut on the end and as you tighten it up you will draw
the tube into the frame.
If you must use a hammer try to position a heavy weight behind what you are
hitting to act as a reaction. Best of luck Richard
From: Rob Housman <mailto:rob@hyperion-ef.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
Craig & Martin:
Good suggestion in re: taking advantage of thermal effect on size. However,
in my case one pin is in and the other is far enough in to preclude removal
and starting over.
Prior to starting the Mod I measured both pins and confirmed that each was
less than 16.5mm (PRIOR to applying the etch primer) and not tapered, and
the hand reamer was fabricated by a local shop with whom I've done business
for a long time, and it is to size. Were it not for the factory's
instruction to paint the pins (and my foolishness in following that
suggestion) the pins would have fit easily.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:07 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame
strengthening
If you can get the tubes out again, easier said than do probably, I would
suggest a shrink fit, if you are happy
the insert tubes are the same size as the ID of the tubes after reaming then
throwing the tubes in the freezer
and GENTLY heating the UC frame should give you the clearance you need long
enough to get them home
mine took about 4 decent taps and they were home, mind you i did use a lathe
and skimmed the tubes till they
were within .01mm, the heating/cooling dropped the tube size to about .2mm
smaller than the UC frame. I believe
quite a few have opted for this method with good results
craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 12:52 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening
Having been working mostly on those factory mandated or recommended
modifications of late, I now realize that it is much easier to build an
airplane than it is to repair one. Mod 70 (Mass balance arm) was merely
tedious, working deep in the tailcone, one handed, through small access
holes, but Mod 73 (Tailplane retention) and Mod 59 (Shimmy damper) did not
go well when following the written procedures, and now with Mod 72 there is
more of that wonderful English understatement: "Insert the tubes - they will
probably need a light tap to fit them" it says in the procedure. English
hammers must be considerably larger and heavier than American hammers (or
16.5 mm reamers must be a bit larger) because "a light tap" does nothing.
After pounding away for entirely too long, and peening the ends of the tubes
where the hammer repeatedly struck, I finally fabricated a steel spud to put
between the offending pin and the hammer. This made it easier to keep
pounding with less damage to the pins, or to the adjacent smaller diameter
tubes to which the engine mounts attach if I were to miss the target. The
steel spud is starting to look like a mushroom from all of those "light
taps."
I should have retained my initial skepticism regarding the fit of painted
tubes, which after painting with etch primer are larger than 16.5mm, but no,
I foolishly believed that the factory had actually tried this procedure.
Well folks, the paint makes the pin almost impossible to fit.
Fearing complaints from my neighbors about so much hammering on a peaceful
Sunday afternoon I finally quit pounding with the intention of resuming
mid-day today when most of my neighbors will be away at work. As of
yesterday afternoon one pin was snug against the bolt attaching the frame to
the fuselage and the other was still barely halfway home.
Now, if I could find one of those English hammers at Home Depot..
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, CA
Europa XS Tri-Gear
A070
Airframe complete
_____
- - Release Date: 9/30/2008 11:03 AM
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|
Good that the mod goes so well for some. It did for me also, and all?I did was
to follow the instructions.
Pete Jeffers
-----Original Message-----
From: jimpuglise@comcast.net
Sent: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 11:54
Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72
I just completed Mod 72 and I can't believe how easy it was.? The reaming took
no more than 5 minutes, I kept the inserts in the freezer overnight, heated the
reamed pieces, applied ACF-50 to the inserts and in they went.? It took two
taps from a US made hammer to move them the last 1/2 inch or so.?
?
If you?lay the inserts beside the reamer,?you can put a mark on the shank with
a felt pen indicating how deep it must go.? I marked it so, excluding the tapered
end from the measurement and it went to that depth with no problem.? Blew
the swarf out and in?they went.? ?
?
The whole process took 20 minutes or so.
?
Jim Puglise, A-283
Message 13
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Subject: | Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening |
Hi Rob
"I can't take advantage of thermodynamics (isentropic throttling) to
> provide a good chill to the ID of the insert in situ."
Sure you can. Heat everything, then chill insert with something cold. You
may have some propane or freon laying around??
When reaming a thin wall tube, especially with weld, you can easily not
cut as you think you may. The reamer will can go in but not size the hole.
I will turn a few sized go no-go gages and run them in bore and figure out
if insert may need adjusting or if the bore needs adjusting. Easy to do,
threaded 1/4-20 rod with a turned washer with various ODs and run them
through bore.
I will use wet PPG DPLF as primer/lubricant for insertion.
Ron Parigoris
Message 14
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|
Subject: | Re: Lithium Polymer start battery |
it's probably the new LiFePo battery. Has 12.8 Volts and will handle 10
times the number of cycles of a Lipo.
I have found them only here til now (German dealer):
http://www.lipopower.de/shop/pages-main/category-149/linano-lifepo-fuer-elektroantrieb.html
<Thomas>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frans Veldman" <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lithium Polymer start battery
> <frans@paardnatuurlijk.nl>
>
> craig bastin wrote:
>> <craigb@onthenet.com.au>
>>
>> I had heard they were available but hadnt been able to find any in
>> australia, I was looking
>> at the dry charge race car batteries which come in at around 1.5kg
>> 13.5volt
>> 7Ah with about 200CCA
>> cost is about $250 for them, which looks to be about the same as the
>> LI-PO I
>> must try harder to find
>> the LI-PO batteries out here.
>
> If it is 13,5 volt, it is not a LI-PO battery. Most likely it is a NiCd
> or something quite similar. They are difficult for aircraft use as they
> need a constant current charge, rather than a constant voltage charge.
>
> What I'm considering now is to use the 11.1 Volt LI-PO battery solely
> for starting the engine, and running the main fuel pump (Rotax 914).
> These are happy with this voltage. The rest of the system will run on
> the normal voltage as delivered by the alternator, backupped with a
> lead-acid battery. As the lead-acid battery is now only intended to be a
> backup for the avionics, and the backup fuel pump (914), only in case
> the alternator fails, it can be much smaller (thus lighter). This setup
> will save considerable weight, and add redundancy as well.
>
> Frans Veldman
>
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening |
Christoph Both wrote:
>
> Rob,
>
> While flash heating the outer tube insert at the last moment a deep
> frozen closely fitting item into the inner tube. This, for a few
> seconds will allow differential expansion and contraction of both parts.
>
> Hope this works.
>
> Christoph Both
>
> #223
>
> Wolfville, Nova Scotia
>
Sounds like a good plan Christoph
Graham
Message 16
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|
Subject: | Re: Lithium Polymer start battery |
it's probably the new LiFePo battery. Has 12.8 Volts and will handle 10
times the number of cycles of a Lipo.
-----[/quote:44794eac54]
Thanks for the info! However this battery can not be used for starting the engine.
And it is three times as heavy as a normal LiPo. Still much lighter than a
normal lead acid battery though.
It could be a good companion for the LiPo battery, use the LiPo for starting, and
the LiFePo battery for the rest. With less than 1,5 Kg (3 pounds) you have
15 Ah, and additional redundancy.
Frans
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "europa-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the Europa-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the Europa-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/europa-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Europa-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Europa-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Europa-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Europa-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Europa-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Europa-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Europa
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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|
Subject: | Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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