---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/01/08: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:48 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Graham Singleton) 2. 03:04 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Richard Collings) 3. 03:55 AM - Lithium Polymer start battery (Frans Veldman) 4. 04:51 AM - Re: Lithium Polymer start battery (craig bastin) 5. 08:41 AM - Stratos files for X-Plane (glenn crowder) 6. 08:54 AM - Mod 72 (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 7. 09:12 AM - Re: Lithium Polymer start battery (Frans Veldman) 8. 09:13 AM - Re: Mod 72 (Rob Housman) 9. 09:13 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Rob Housman) 10. 10:26 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Christoph Both) 11. 10:45 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Rob Housman) 12. 11:03 AM - Re: Mod 72 (pjeffers@talktalk.net) 13. 11:36 AM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening () 14. 12:43 PM - Re: Lithium Polymer start battery (Thomas Scherer) 15. 01:32 PM - Re: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening (Graham Singleton) 16. 03:35 PM - Re: Lithium Polymer start battery (Frans Veldman) 17. 11:03 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 18. 11:13 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:48:21 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Erich Trombley wrote: > > Rob, > > Before hacking off the end of the insert I would try and first remove it using a slide hammer. While you won't find a slide hammer at Home Depot they are readily available at Harbor Freight or an auto body supply house. With the appropriate attachment on the slide hammer the insert should be easily extracted at which point the primer can be removed and the insert re-installed with wet primer. Good luck. > > Erich Trombley > N28ET Classic Mono 914 Rob why don't you rig up a press? Length of screwed rod or a long set screw, a socket of suitable ID over the protruding insert and a nut on the other end, the tighten the nut and squeeze out the insert. Graham ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:04:55 AM PST US From: "Richard Collings" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Hi, Have you tried adapting a sash clamp to press the tube into the hole. This is how I fitted mine but before mounting the frame in the fuselage which made the job easer. You would need to cut the sash clamp bar down to just the right length as the unused length would get in the way. Failing that remove the 2 fixing bolts holding the frame onto the cockpit module and slide a suitable length high tensile bolt though the tube put a large plate washer and nut on the end and as you tighten it up you will draw the tube into the frame. If you must use a hammer try to position a heavy weight behind what you are hitting to act as a reaction. Best of luck Richard From: Rob Housman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Craig & Martin: Good suggestion in re: taking advantage of thermal effect on size. However, in my case one pin is in and the other is far enough in to preclude removal and starting over. Prior to starting the Mod I measured both pins and confirmed that each was less than 16.5mm (PRIOR to applying the etch primer) and not tapered, and the hand reamer was fabricated by a local shop with whom I've done business for a long time, and it is to size. Were it not for the factory's instruction to paint the pins (and my foolishness in following that suggestion) the pins would have fit easily. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:07 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening If you can get the tubes out again, easier said than do probably, I would suggest a shrink fit, if you are happy the insert tubes are the same size as the ID of the tubes after reaming then throwing the tubes in the freezer and GENTLY heating the UC frame should give you the clearance you need long enough to get them home mine took about 4 decent taps and they were home, mind you i did use a lathe and skimmed the tubes till they were within .01mm, the heating/cooling dropped the tube size to about .2mm smaller than the UC frame. I believe quite a few have opted for this method with good results craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Housman Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 12:52 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Having been working mostly on those factory mandated or recommended modifications of late, I now realize that it is much easier to build an airplane than it is to repair one. Mod 70 (Mass balance arm) was merely tedious, working deep in the tailcone, one handed, through small access holes, but Mod 73 (Tailplane retention) and Mod 59 (Shimmy damper) did not go well when following the written procedures, and now with Mod 72 there is more of that wonderful English understatement: "Insert the tubes - they will probably need a light tap to fit them" it says in the procedure. English hammers must be considerably larger and heavier than American hammers (or 16.5 mm reamers must be a bit larger) because "a light tap" does nothing. After pounding away for entirely too long, and peening the ends of the tubes where the hammer repeatedly struck, I finally fabricated a steel spud to put between the offending pin and the hammer. This made it easier to keep pounding with less damage to the pins, or to the adjacent smaller diameter tubes to which the engine mounts attach if I were to miss the target. The steel spud is starting to look like a mushroom from all of those "light taps." I should have retained my initial skepticism regarding the fit of painted tubes, which after painting with etch primer are larger than 16.5mm, but no, I foolishly believed that the factory had actually tried this procedure. Well folks, the paint makes the pin almost impossible to fit. Fearing complaints from my neighbors about so much hammering on a peaceful Sunday afternoon I finally quit pounding with the intention of resuming mid-day today when most of my neighbors will be away at work. As of yesterday afternoon one pin was snug against the bolt attaching the frame to the fuselage and the other was still barely halfway home. Now, if I could find one of those English hammers at Home Depot.. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 9/30/2008 11:03 AM ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:20 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Lithium Polymer start battery From: "Frans Veldman" The last few years there has been tremendous progress on the development of small and light weight batteries. Take this for example: a 11,1 Volt 5Ah battery, capable of providing 150 Amp crank power, weighing only 0,384 Kg (for the non-metric guys: less than one pound, do the math yourself). [url]http://www.conrad.nl/goto.php?artikel 6604[/url] The 11.1 volt is a bit of a disadvantage, with a nominal voltage of 3,7 Volts per cell you have to choose between 11,1 volts or 14,8 volts. (The 14,8 Volt model weights 0,5Kg). Note that this is the nominal voltage, a fully charged battery will have a higher voltage. You will probably have to adapt the rectifier/regulator, but given the significant weight savings, this could be worthwile. Anyone tried this already? Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:28 AM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Lithium Polymer start battery I had heard they were available but hadnt been able to find any in australia, I was looking at the dry charge race car batteries which come in at around 1.5kg 13.5volt 7Ah with about 200CCA cost is about $250 for them, which looks to be about the same as the LI-PO I must try harder to find the LI-PO batteries out here. craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Frans Veldman Sent: Wednesday, 1 October 2008 8:54 PM Subject: Europa-List: Lithium Polymer start battery The last few years there has been tremendous progress on the development of small and light weight batteries. Take this for example: a 11,1 Volt 5Ah battery, capable of providing 150 Amp crank power, weighing only 0,384 Kg (for the non-metric guys: less than one pound, do the math yourself). [url]http://www.conrad.nl/goto.php?artikel 6604[/url] The 11.1 volt is a bit of a disadvantage, with a nominal voltage of 3,7 Volts per cell you have to choose between 11,1 volts or 14,8 volts. (The 14,8 Volt model weights 0,5Kg). Note that this is the nominal voltage, a fully charged battery will have a higher voltage. You will probably have to adapt the rectifier/regulator, but given the significant weight savings, this could be worthwile. Anyone tried this already? Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 7:08 PM ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:34 AM PST US From: glenn crowder Subject: Europa-List: Stratos files for X-Plane Hi Peter and Lance - I have attached the X-plane V7 Stratos .acf file. I s ent the files to your personal email as Matronics will not accept anything but basic .jpg=2C .bmp=2C .pdf type files. If anyone else would like them=2C email me off list. The designati on indicates 110 sq ft and 50 hp. The wings use the NACA 23012 low moment .afl file=2C vstab uses NACA 0012 symmetrical .afl. On X-plane V7=2C the . afl files used on a particular .acf file need to be in the same directory w here the .acf file is located.I have added a bellyboard instead of flaps so this uses the bellybord.afl file. On the version I have created=2C all co ntrol surfaces are on the lower wing=2C making it much easier to build. Af ter much experimentation I found that flaps really aren't necessary as they only lowered stall speed a mph or so and there were four of them=2C adding a lot of weight and complexity. The bellyboard is very effective at glide path control=2C being much lighter and easier to construct. Just don't fo rget to retract it in a go-around or touch and go! There is some kind of bu g with the engine start as it won't start with the throttle at idle. Advan ce the throttle about half and then hit the ignition key with your mouse. Leave thebrakes on or else the plane will rocket forward! Set about two li nes of up trim for TO. You don't have to pull any back stick as the plane will rotate automatically about 80 kts=2C40 kts if you pull hard back stick ! The a/c will begin a slow long period pitch oscillation until you stabil ize it with the stick. Raise the gear and as you climb=2C start reducing u p trim.Stabilize the climb about 100 kts then at altitude=2C feed in down t rim a bit at a time. Top speed will stabilize at 160 kts but it takes quit e a while=2C the trim becoming extremelysensitive. Rolls are very axial=2C loops are easy. The tip rudders work but there's a bug in that I can't fi gure out how to make just one rudder deploy outwards while the other remain s neutral. They both move together currently both left and right but still work. They are really never needed in flight except to enter a spin as th e a/c stays coordinatedall by itself. Try slowing down to 40 kts by reduc ing throttle and adding up trim. At stall=2C the a/c will just bob its nos e gently. You will still have roll control=2C although a bit sluggish.For landing slow to 70 kts in the pattern=2C lower the gear=2C deploy the belly bord - the nose will pop up briefly - then stablilze at about 65 kts. Leve l out at the threshold and justgradually pull back stick until the mains hi t then lower the nose. Don't pull too much back stick or it might take off again briefly followed by a hard bounce. Very easy to fly overall=2Caerob atic and mild mannered. I haven't got it to do anything nasty but maybe so meone else can! I would be interested in any feedback. Hoping to use the Axiro XR-50 engine=2C very light at 15 Kg=2C with a turbo'ed version used recently on a world altitude record breaking flight on a powered PPG=2C fly ing neatly overMt Everest in the process! Glenn er2@hotmail.comSubject: Re: Europa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing bipla ne - this one's different! Hi Glenn=2C Thanks for the clarification=2C and I would definitely be interested in the x-plane model. I'm hoping it will work on V9 - I think it should. Cheers=2C Pete On Sat=2C Sep 27=2C 2008 at 1:42 PM=2C glenn crowder wrote: Don't know the exact answer but the designer was not killed while flying th e original prototype. The original proto is still flying and is flown by C harles son=2CRon Ligeti=2C an aeronautical engineer=2C who is reverse engin eering the prototype to create new open source plans that will be available on the website. According to the site=2C Charles was test flying a new lar ger version to become a kit version of the a/c. 'A channel or third wing w as added to the fuselage. The bottom of the channel blended into the duct. Two different accounts of the purpose of the duct have been advanced: Ron L igeti's interpretation is that the ducted fan drew air over the channel to create a low pressure area and increase lift. Romeo Garcia=2C a member of t he original construction team=2C reports that the purpose was to channel mo re air into the duct for improved propulsion. It is believed that one or mo re of these modifications changed the stall characteristics significantly =2C possibly by occluding or creating turbulence ahead of the duct at a hig h angle of attack.' I have a theory that the rhino rudder as installed on t he proto to yaw the plane for landing without banking might behave unpredic tably in a high angle stall scenario butthats just my speculation. On the sim I have eliminated the rhino rudder and gone to a retractable tri gear s etup to allow more ground clearance for a larger prop.I can attach the sim for X-plane V7 if anyone is interested but it will have to wait until I get a new hard disk for my desktop as it got hammered yesterday! ing wing biplane - this one's different! Very slick design - but one question: As the original designer died in it i n a 'stall accident' what are the changes that you have made in the x-plane version from his original which has made it stall-proof (ala canard)=2C wh ile his obviously was not? Cheers=2C Pete A239 On Sat=2C Sep 27=2C 2008 at 10:06 AM=2C glenn crowder wrote: This is an incredible concept that has not been utilized IMO. The joined wing concept is the most efficient per NASA studies http://www.aoe.vt.edu/ design/ikelos/ as it eliminates the draggy tip vortices that plague all oth er designs. The Stratos hasan L/D of 19/1 and the original needed flaps to degrade the glide enough to allow a steeper landing approach. You haveeff ective sailplane efficiency in a very compact planform. In addition the wi ngs can be made much lighter as the joined wingat the tips adds great stren gth. The lower wing is totally flat with no dihedral making it easy to bui ld. The upper wing needsno twist and uses 2 deg dihedral. Other advantage s are much stronger pilot/passengers protection due to the cage type constr uction=2C wide tolerance of CG changes and greater tolerance for gusty cond itions due to the short wings. On the sim it is possible to take off with t he stick full back=2C just wait for rotation and the a/c will just climb aw ay bobbing itsnose with full roll and yaw control. Fully aerobatic too but pitch sensitivity is a little much for landing in this mode=2C easilycorre cted with a pitch limiter for landing. Don't see why the concept couldn't work for crowd killers as well as the short wingsshould allow twice as many gates at the terminal. Very cool pic: http://www.ligeti-stratos.com/assets /images/hg_3_big.jpg From: craigb@onthenet.com.au ing wing biplane - this one's different!Date: Sat=2C 27 Sep 2008 11:14:23 + 1000 How weird is that=2C the design is very close to one I was considering to s cratch build before i started on my XS=2C glad to know it will fly ok=2C I didnt think anyone else would like such a departure from the 'n orm'=2C my only concern was where to put the prop=2C I was thinking about belt drive ducted fans between the two wings -----Original Message-----From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mai lto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of glenn crowderSent: Friday=2C 26 September 2008 4:38 AMTo: europa-list@matronics.comSubject: Eu ropa-List: New tandem wheel flying wing biplane - this one's different! Wo uld love to build this one in my spare time. Original was 78 sq ft and 172 lbs with engine. I have scaled it up to 110 sq ft=2C built it in X-plane with 50 hp=2C goes 160 mph=2C flies wonderful using NACA 23012 airfoil=2C s talls at 35=2C although it just does the canard stall=2C bobbing it's nose gently in the breeze. http://www.ligeti-stratos.com/ Glenn designs... any others out there?From: fklein@orcasonline.comTo: europa-list @matronics.comOn Thursday=2C Sep 25=2C 2008=2C at 08:11 US/Pacific=2C rick wrote: Just as a matter of interest could I turn a Mono on my short=2C very bumpy =2C grass strip (max 20' wide with no turning area) after backtracking in a strong wind. I sometimes have trouble with my trike using full braking on one wheel! !!...touche'...that needle do twist nicely...ouch...always nice to recognise the depth of our commitment to our respective decisions...pit y we tend to cloak ourselves in claims of rationality for what is=2C IMO=2C an essentially irrational enterprise...but I love this thread which again =2C IMO=2C celebrates the extreme flexibility of a wonderful airframe which sees such variety (mono=2C trigear=2C conventional taildragger=2C short wi ngs/long wings=2C Rotax=2C Soobs=2C Jabs=2C CAM/Honda=2C Smart Brabus=2C O- 200=2C and =3B --> See how Windows connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are part of your life. See Now href='http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Li st'>http://www.matronhref='http://forums.matronics.com'>http://forums.mat ronics.comhref='http://www.matronics.com/contribution'>http://www.matroni cs.com/c target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listttp ://forums.matronics.com=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn '10 hidden secrets' from Jamie. Le arn Now target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listttp://forums .matronics.com=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Stay up to date on your PC=2C the Web=2C and ymsnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/ 01/' target='_new'>See Now ================ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on the go. See Now Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie . Learn Now _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are part of your life. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:39 AM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 I just completed Mod 72 and I can't believe how easy it was. The reaming took no more than 5 minutes, I kept the inserts in the freezer overnight, heated the reamed pieces, applied ACF-50 to the inserts and in they went. It took two taps from a US made hammer to move them the last 1/2 inch or so. If you lay the inserts beside the reamer, you can put a mark on the shank with a felt pen indicating how deep it must go. I marked it so, excluding the tapered end from the measurement and it went to that depth with no problem. Blew the swarf out and in they went. The whole process took 20 minutes or so. Jim Puglise, A-283
I just completed Mod 72 and I can't believe how easy it was.  The reaming took no more than 5 minutes, I kept the inserts in the freezer overnight, heated the reamed pieces, applied ACF-50 to the inserts and in they went.  It took two taps from a US made hammer to move them the last 1/2 inch or so. 
 
If you lay the inserts beside the reamer, you can put a mark on the shank with a felt pen indicating how deep it must go.  I marked it so, excluding the tapered end from the measurement and it went to that depth with no problem.  Blew the swarf out and in they went.   
 
The whole process took 20 minutes or so.
 
Jim Puglise, A-283



________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:29 AM PST US From: Frans Veldman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lithium Polymer start battery craig bastin wrote: > > I had heard they were available but hadnt been able to find any in > australia, I was looking > at the dry charge race car batteries which come in at around 1.5kg 13.5volt > 7Ah with about 200CCA > cost is about $250 for them, which looks to be about the same as the LI-PO I > must try harder to find > the LI-PO batteries out here. If it is 13,5 volt, it is not a LI-PO battery. Most likely it is a NiCd or something quite similar. They are difficult for aircraft use as they need a constant current charge, rather than a constant voltage charge. What I'm considering now is to use the 11.1 Volt LI-PO battery solely for starting the engine, and running the main fuel pump (Rotax 914). These are happy with this voltage. The rest of the system will run on the normal voltage as delivered by the alternator, backupped with a lead-acid battery. As the lead-acid battery is now only intended to be a backup for the avionics, and the backup fuel pump (914), only in case the alternator fails, it can be much smaller (thus lighter). This setup will save considerable weight, and add redundancy as well. Frans Veldman ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:38 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 I'm envious. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimpuglise@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:54 AM Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 I just completed Mod 72 and I can't believe how easy it was. The reaming took no more than 5 minutes, I kept the inserts in the freezer overnight, heated the reamed pieces, applied ACF-50 to the inserts and in they went. It took two taps from a US made hammer to move them the last 1/2 inch or so. If you lay the inserts beside the reamer, you can put a mark on the shank with a felt pen indicating how deep it must go. I marked it so, excluding the tapered end from the measurement and it went to that depth with no problem. Blew the swarf out and in they went. The whole process took 20 minutes or so. Jim Puglise, A-283 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:39 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Erich, Graham, and Richard: Removal, with the insert now more than halfway in would likely be a real chore, so for now at least I'll continue on with the brute force approach. I have considered rigging a press and still may do so. However, based on my experience with Mod 73 where I used a similar scheme to extract my dummy torque tube after a small amount of epoxy managed to get where it should not be, and that threaded rod's 1/4-20 NSC threads were severely damaged, I fear that the force needed would be greater than the strength of the largest threaded rod that would fit through the ID of the insert. I think the sash clamp would have a better chance of success since the threaded portion (with high strength Acme thread) would be in compression not tension as for the scheme noted above, but I'll defer that pending further hammering. With about 1.3 inch remaining to hammer in, and modest application of heat to the landing gear frame helping, I have made sufficient progress to keep pounding onward, so to speak. Progress is slow using heat because heat works only when there is a temperature differential and the insert soon reaches the same temperature as the frame thus requiring a waiting period while both get back to ambient temperature. Heat, hammer, cuss, wait. Repeat as required. I hope that this discussion will help others that have yet to tackle Mod 72, though with almost two years having elapsed since the Mod was announced I am probably the last to have this much fun. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Collings Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 3:04 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Hi, Have you tried adapting a sash clamp to press the tube into the hole. This is how I fitted mine but before mounting the frame in the fuselage which made the job easer. You would need to cut the sash clamp bar down to just the right length as the unused length would get in the way. Failing that remove the 2 fixing bolts holding the frame onto the cockpit module and slide a suitable length high tensile bolt though the tube put a large plate washer and nut on the end and as you tighten it up you will draw the tube into the frame. If you must use a hammer try to position a heavy weight behind what you are hitting to act as a reaction. Best of luck Richard From: Rob Housman Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Craig & Martin: Good suggestion in re: taking advantage of thermal effect on size. However, in my case one pin is in and the other is far enough in to preclude removal and starting over. Prior to starting the Mod I measured both pins and confirmed that each was less than 16.5mm (PRIOR to applying the etch primer) and not tapered, and the hand reamer was fabricated by a local shop with whom I've done business for a long time, and it is to size. Were it not for the factory's instruction to paint the pins (and my foolishness in following that suggestion) the pins would have fit easily. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:07 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening If you can get the tubes out again, easier said than do probably, I would suggest a shrink fit, if you are happy the insert tubes are the same size as the ID of the tubes after reaming then throwing the tubes in the freezer and GENTLY heating the UC frame should give you the clearance you need long enough to get them home mine took about 4 decent taps and they were home, mind you i did use a lathe and skimmed the tubes till they were within .01mm, the heating/cooling dropped the tube size to about .2mm smaller than the UC frame. I believe quite a few have opted for this method with good results craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Housman Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 12:52 AM Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Having been working mostly on those factory mandated or recommended modifications of late, I now realize that it is much easier to build an airplane than it is to repair one. Mod 70 (Mass balance arm) was merely tedious, working deep in the tailcone, one handed, through small access holes, but Mod 73 (Tailplane retention) and Mod 59 (Shimmy damper) did not go well when following the written procedures, and now with Mod 72 there is more of that wonderful English understatement: "Insert the tubes - they will probably need a light tap to fit them" it says in the procedure. English hammers must be considerably larger and heavier than American hammers (or 16.5 mm reamers must be a bit larger) because "a light tap" does nothing. After pounding away for entirely too long, and peening the ends of the tubes where the hammer repeatedly struck, I finally fabricated a steel spud to put between the offending pin and the hammer. This made it easier to keep pounding with less damage to the pins, or to the adjacent smaller diameter tubes to which the engine mounts attach if I were to miss the target. The steel spud is starting to look like a mushroom from all of those "light taps." I should have retained my initial skepticism regarding the fit of painted tubes, which after painting with etch primer are larger than 16.5mm, but no, I foolishly believed that the factory had actually tried this procedure. Well folks, the paint makes the pin almost impossible to fit. Fearing complaints from my neighbors about so much hammering on a peaceful Sunday afternoon I finally quit pounding with the intention of resuming mid-day today when most of my neighbors will be away at work. As of yesterday afternoon one pin was snug against the bolt attaching the frame to the fuselage and the other was still barely halfway home. Now, if I could find one of those English hammers at Home Depot.. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete _____ - - Release Date: 9/30/2008 11:03 AM ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:33 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening From: "Christoph Both" Rob, While flash heating the outer tube insert at the last moment a deep frozen closely fitting item into the inner tube. This, for a few seconds will allow differential expansion and contraction of both parts. Hope this works. Christoph Both #223 Wolfville, Nova Scotia From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:13 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Erich, Graham, and Richard: Removal, with the insert now more than halfway in would likely be a real chore, so for now at least I'll continue on with the brute force approach. I have considered rigging a press and still may do so. However, based on my experience with Mod 73 where I used a similar scheme to extract my dummy torque tube after a small amount of epoxy managed to get where it should not be, and that threaded rod's 1/4-20 NSC threads were severely damaged, I fear that the force needed would be greater than the strength of the largest threaded rod that would fit through the ID of the insert. I think the sash clamp would have a better chance of success since the threaded portion (with high strength Acme thread) would be in compression not tension as for the scheme noted above, but I'll defer that pending further hammering. With about 1.3 inch remaining to hammer in, and modest application of heat to the landing gear frame helping, I have made sufficient progress to keep pounding onward, so to speak. Progress is slow using heat because heat works only when there is a temperature differential and the insert soon reaches the same temperature as the frame thus requiring a waiting period while both get back to ambient temperature. Heat, hammer, cuss, wait. Repeat as required. I hope that this discussion will help others that have yet to tackle Mod 72, though with almost two years having elapsed since the Mod was announced I am probably the last to have this much fun. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Collings Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 3:04 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Hi, Have you tried adapting a sash clamp to press the tube into the hole. This is how I fitted mine but before mounting the frame in the fuselage which made the job easer. You would need to cut the sash clamp bar down to just the right length as the unused length would get in the way. Failing that remove the 2 fixing bolts holding the frame onto the cockpit module and slide a suitable length high tensile bolt though the tube put a large plate washer and nut on the end and as you tighten it up you will draw the tube into the frame. If you must use a hammer try to position a heavy weight behind what you are hitting to act as a reaction. Best of luck Richard From: Rob Housman To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Craig & Martin: Good suggestion in re: taking advantage of thermal effect on size. However, in my case one pin is in and the other is far enough in to preclude removal and starting over. Prior to starting the Mod I measured both pins and confirmed that each was less than 16.5mm (PRIOR to applying the etch primer) and not tapered, and the hand reamer was fabricated by a local shop with whom I've done business for a long time, and it is to size. Were it not for the factory's instruction to paint the pins (and my foolishness in following that suggestion) the pins would have fit easily. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:07 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening If you can get the tubes out again, easier said than do probably, I would suggest a shrink fit, if you are happy the insert tubes are the same size as the ID of the tubes after reaming then throwing the tubes in the freezer and GENTLY heating the UC frame should give you the clearance you need long enough to get them home mine took about 4 decent taps and they were home, mind you i did use a lathe and skimmed the tubes till they were within .01mm, the heating/cooling dropped the tube size to about .2mm smaller than the UC frame. I believe quite a few have opted for this method with good results craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Housman Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 12:52 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Having been working mostly on those factory mandated or recommended modifications of late, I now realize that it is much easier to build an airplane than it is to repair one. Mod 70 (Mass balance arm) was merely tedious, working deep in the tailcone, one handed, through small access holes, but Mod 73 (Tailplane retention) and Mod 59 (Shimmy damper) did not go well when following the written procedures, and now with Mod 72 there is more of that wonderful English understatement: "Insert the tubes - they will probably need a light tap to fit them" it says in the procedure. English hammers must be considerably larger and heavier than American hammers (or 16.5 mm reamers must be a bit larger) because "a light tap" does nothing. After pounding away for entirely too long, and peening the ends of the tubes where the hammer repeatedly struck, I finally fabricated a steel spud to put between the offending pin and the hammer. This made it easier to keep pounding with less damage to the pins, or to the adjacent smaller diameter tubes to which the engine mounts attach if I were to miss the target. The steel spud is starting to look like a mushroom from all of those "light taps." I should have retained my initial skepticism regarding the fit of painted tubes, which after painting with etch primer are larger than 16.5mm, but no, I foolishly believed that the factory had actually tried this procedure. Well folks, the paint makes the pin almost impossible to fit. Fearing complaints from my neighbors about so much hammering on a peaceful Sunday afternoon I finally quit pounding with the intention of resuming mid-day today when most of my neighbors will be away at work. As of yesterday afternoon one pin was snug against the bolt attaching the frame to the fuselage and the other was still barely halfway home. Now, if I could find one of those English hammers at Home Depot.... Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete ________________________________ - - Release Date: 9/30/2008 11:03 AM ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:47 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening While your suggestion is valid there's the matter of first getting the offending tube back out of the landing gear frame in order to chill it, so I'm stuck (a deliberate choice of words) with using heat on the outside and not cooling the insert. Unfortunately I don't have a tank of compressed gas handy so I can't take advantage of thermodynamics (isentropic throttling) to provide a good chill to the ID of the insert in situ. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christoph Both Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Rob, While flash heating the outer tube insert at the last moment a deep frozen closely fitting item into the inner tube. This, for a few seconds will allow differential expansion and contraction of both parts. Hope this works. Christoph Both #223 Wolfville, Nova Scotia From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:13 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Erich, Graham, and Richard: Removal, with the insert now more than halfway in would likely be a real chore, so for now at least I'll continue on with the brute force approach. I have considered rigging a press and still may do so. However, based on my experience with Mod 73 where I used a similar scheme to extract my dummy torque tube after a small amount of epoxy managed to get where it should not be, and that threaded rod's 1/4-20 NSC threads were severely damaged, I fear that the force needed would be greater than the strength of the largest threaded rod that would fit through the ID of the insert. I think the sash clamp would have a better chance of success since the threaded portion (with high strength Acme thread) would be in compression not tension as for the scheme noted above, but I'll defer that pending further hammering. With about 1.3 inch remaining to hammer in, and modest application of heat to the landing gear frame helping, I have made sufficient progress to keep pounding onward, so to speak. Progress is slow using heat because heat works only when there is a temperature differential and the insert soon reaches the same temperature as the frame thus requiring a waiting period while both get back to ambient temperature. Heat, hammer, cuss, wait. Repeat as required. I hope that this discussion will help others that have yet to tackle Mod 72, though with almost two years having elapsed since the Mod was announced I am probably the last to have this much fun. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Collings Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 3:04 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Hi, Have you tried adapting a sash clamp to press the tube into the hole. This is how I fitted mine but before mounting the frame in the fuselage which made the job easer. You would need to cut the sash clamp bar down to just the right length as the unused length would get in the way. Failing that remove the 2 fixing bolts holding the frame onto the cockpit module and slide a suitable length high tensile bolt though the tube put a large plate washer and nut on the end and as you tighten it up you will draw the tube into the frame. If you must use a hammer try to position a heavy weight behind what you are hitting to act as a reaction. Best of luck Richard From: Rob Housman Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Craig & Martin: Good suggestion in re: taking advantage of thermal effect on size. However, in my case one pin is in and the other is far enough in to preclude removal and starting over. Prior to starting the Mod I measured both pins and confirmed that each was less than 16.5mm (PRIOR to applying the etch primer) and not tapered, and the hand reamer was fabricated by a local shop with whom I've done business for a long time, and it is to size. Were it not for the factory's instruction to paint the pins (and my foolishness in following that suggestion) the pins would have fit easily. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:07 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening If you can get the tubes out again, easier said than do probably, I would suggest a shrink fit, if you are happy the insert tubes are the same size as the ID of the tubes after reaming then throwing the tubes in the freezer and GENTLY heating the UC frame should give you the clearance you need long enough to get them home mine took about 4 decent taps and they were home, mind you i did use a lathe and skimmed the tubes till they were within .01mm, the heating/cooling dropped the tube size to about .2mm smaller than the UC frame. I believe quite a few have opted for this method with good results craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Housman Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 12:52 AM Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Having been working mostly on those factory mandated or recommended modifications of late, I now realize that it is much easier to build an airplane than it is to repair one. Mod 70 (Mass balance arm) was merely tedious, working deep in the tailcone, one handed, through small access holes, but Mod 73 (Tailplane retention) and Mod 59 (Shimmy damper) did not go well when following the written procedures, and now with Mod 72 there is more of that wonderful English understatement: "Insert the tubes - they will probably need a light tap to fit them" it says in the procedure. English hammers must be considerably larger and heavier than American hammers (or 16.5 mm reamers must be a bit larger) because "a light tap" does nothing. After pounding away for entirely too long, and peening the ends of the tubes where the hammer repeatedly struck, I finally fabricated a steel spud to put between the offending pin and the hammer. This made it easier to keep pounding with less damage to the pins, or to the adjacent smaller diameter tubes to which the engine mounts attach if I were to miss the target. The steel spud is starting to look like a mushroom from all of those "light taps." I should have retained my initial skepticism regarding the fit of painted tubes, which after painting with etch primer are larger than 16.5mm, but no, I foolishly believed that the factory had actually tried this procedure. Well folks, the paint makes the pin almost impossible to fit. Fearing complaints from my neighbors about so much hammering on a peaceful Sunday afternoon I finally quit pounding with the intention of resuming mid-day today when most of my neighbors will be away at work. As of yesterday afternoon one pin was snug against the bolt attaching the frame to the fuselage and the other was still barely halfway home. Now, if I could find one of those English hammers at Home Depot.. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, CA Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete _____ - - Release Date: 9/30/2008 11:03 AM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 From: pjeffers@talktalk.net Good that the mod goes so well for some. It did for me also, and all?I did was to follow the instructions. Pete Jeffers -----Original Message----- From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Sent: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 11:54 Subject: Europa-List: Mod 72 I just completed Mod 72 and I can't believe how easy it was.? The reaming took no more than 5 minutes, I kept the inserts in the freezer overnight, heated the reamed pieces, applied ACF-50 to the inserts and in they went.? It took two taps from a US made hammer to move them the last 1/2 inch or so.? ? If you?lay the inserts beside the reamer,?you can put a mark on the shank with a felt pen indicating how deep it must go.? I marked it so, excluding the tapered end from the measurement and it went to that depth with no problem.? Blew the swarf out and in?they went.? ? ? The whole process took 20 minutes or so. ? Jim Puglise, A-283 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening From: Hi Rob "I can't take advantage of thermodynamics (isentropic throttling) to > provide a good chill to the ID of the insert in situ." Sure you can. Heat everything, then chill insert with something cold. You may have some propane or freon laying around?? When reaming a thin wall tube, especially with weld, you can easily not cut as you think you may. The reamer will can go in but not size the hole. I will turn a few sized go no-go gages and run them in bore and figure out if insert may need adjusting or if the bore needs adjusting. Easy to do, threaded 1/4-20 rod with a turned washer with various ODs and run them through bore. I will use wet PPG DPLF as primer/lubricant for insertion. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:33 PM PST US From: "Thomas Scherer" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lithium Polymer start battery it's probably the new LiFePo battery. Has 12.8 Volts and will handle 10 times the number of cycles of a Lipo. I have found them only here til now (German dealer): http://www.lipopower.de/shop/pages-main/category-149/linano-lifepo-fuer-elektroantrieb.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frans Veldman" Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lithium Polymer start battery > > > craig bastin wrote: >> >> >> I had heard they were available but hadnt been able to find any in >> australia, I was looking >> at the dry charge race car batteries which come in at around 1.5kg >> 13.5volt >> 7Ah with about 200CCA >> cost is about $250 for them, which looks to be about the same as the >> LI-PO I >> must try harder to find >> the LI-PO batteries out here. > > If it is 13,5 volt, it is not a LI-PO battery. Most likely it is a NiCd > or something quite similar. They are difficult for aircraft use as they > need a constant current charge, rather than a constant voltage charge. > > What I'm considering now is to use the 11.1 Volt LI-PO battery solely > for starting the engine, and running the main fuel pump (Rotax 914). > These are happy with this voltage. The rest of the system will run on > the normal voltage as delivered by the alternator, backupped with a > lead-acid battery. As the lead-acid battery is now only intended to be a > backup for the avionics, and the backup fuel pump (914), only in case > the alternator fails, it can be much smaller (thus lighter). This setup > will save considerable weight, and add redundancy as well. > > Frans Veldman > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:29 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod 72 - Undercarriage mounting frame strengthening Christoph Both wrote: > > Rob, > > While flash heating the outer tube insert at the last moment a deep > frozen closely fitting item into the inner tube. This, for a few > seconds will allow differential expansion and contraction of both parts. > > Hope this works. > > Christoph Both > > #223 > > Wolfville, Nova Scotia > Sounds like a good plan Christoph Graham ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lithium Polymer start battery From: "Frans Veldman" it's probably the new LiFePo battery. Has 12.8 Volts and will handle 10 times the number of cycles of a Lipo. -----[/quote:44794eac54] Thanks for the info! However this battery can not be used for starting the engine. And it is three times as heavy as a normal LiPo. Still much lighter than a normal lead acid battery though. It could be a good companion for the LiPo battery, use the LiPo for starting, and the LiFePo battery for the rest. With less than 1,5 Kg (3 pounds) you have 15 Ah, and additional redundancy. Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:50 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Europa-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. 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Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Europa-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Europa-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Europa ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Europa-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Europa-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:40 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Europa-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Europa-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.