---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/10/08: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:34 AM - Popham Sunday? (Richard Iddon) 2. 12:22 PM - Re: Popham Sunday? (Ray) 3. 12:34 PM - Re: FloScan sensors; which model? (Frans Veldman) 4. 01:09 PM - Re: FloScan sensors; which model? () 5. 03:05 PM - pitch torque tube attachments (Rowland & Wilma Carson) 6. 03:13 PM - Re: engine surging (ALAN YERLY) 7. 03:24 PM - Re: pitch torque tube attachments (ALAN YERLY) 8. 10:51 PM - O2 needs at altitude (craig bastin) 9. 11:31 PM - Re: {Spam?} O2 needs at altitude (Pete Lawless) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:54 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: Europa-List: Popham Sunday? Anyone heading for Popham this Sunday for their end of season fly-in? Richard Iddon G-RIXS ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:32 PM PST US From: "Ray" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Popham Sunday? I'll be there in an AT3 on behalf of an absent Rick Morris G-RIKS Europa XS - he's off motor racing in South Africa this weekend. Look forward to seeing you again - and LOTS of other Europa flyers. Regards Ray -- Ray raymondwren@fastmail.co.uk ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: FloScan sensors; which model? From: "Frans Veldman" Today I finished the fuel system plumbing, so I decided to put some fuel in the tank and do some testing. I can't run the engine yet as I have not finished the engine installation completely, but of course I can run the fuel pumps and measure the flow and pressure. The fuel flow system, setup as a "sensor 1 minus sensor 2" installation, indicates zero fuel consumption, which is correct of course, as the engine is not running. However, if I connect the sensors individually, they indicate that 130 liters per hour is flowing, about the maximum these fuel flow sensors can handle. The fuel pressure is ok, according to the fuel pressure gauge I have installed. With both pumps on (I have them in series) the flow increases to over 140 liters per hour, and the pressure goes slightly over the red line as indicated on the "fuel over airbox pressure" gauge. Do I have a problem here? I still feel that the floscan sensors are used on the edge of their upper range, but so far the pressure loss does not seem to be significant. Actually I have a little too much pressure with both pumps running. The carbs don't spill any fuel though, so I guess it is ok. Any comments on this? Frans Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: FloScan sensors; which model? From: Hi Frans "With both pumps on (I have them in series) the flow increases to over 140 liters per hour, and the pressure goes slightly over the red line as indicated on the "fuel over airbox pressure" gauge. Do I have a problem here?" First off understand that Airbox pressure is in absolute terms. The pressure coming out of a fuel pump if you measured it would be over ambient pressure. That said, I hope did not add confusion, but you really should follow Rotax manual procedure to test if you have between ~2 and 5PSI over airbox under worst condition. Worst condition of course would be when you are flying in thin air where the fuel pump/s need to work overtime. Rotax simulation of thin air is to fool fuel pressure regulator into thinking you are at a high altitude and you then need to be able to meet minimum differential pressure. OK this is the most critical meeting worst case for chance of not being able to deliver fuel thus you will run out of fuel. Next scenario is in thicker air. The fuel pressure regulator works based on flow. It is calibrated based on a maximum amount of resistance return flow of fuel will have going back to tank. If you increase resistance of return flow, your regulator will be fooled into delivering a higher fuel pressure over airbox pressure. Just a note, I was supplied with my Kit and FWF 90 degree fittings that some were not too restrictive, some were poor at best! A simple blow through test will tell the tale by the sound. Same goes for straight nipple fittings, try not to use restricting fittings. To answer your question as direct as I can---------perhaps. Is your differential fuel pressure gauge really telling the proper tale? Gauges are notorious for having error. If you had parallel pumps, turning both on would in most cases blow well above 5 PSI, Rotax does not recommend that, but plenty of folk seem to have good results. I would be not tremendous concerned if next test I mention proves the same under both circumstances. Check your return line, better yet let fuel pressure regulator pee into a pail with a non restrictive hose, if pressure within limits, then if you reconnect your return line and pressure goes up, go after a less restricting design. Do test as per Rotax under worst case by cheating fuel pressure regulator into thinking you are at altitude. Good Luck. Ron P. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:35 PM PST US From: Rowland & Wilma Carson Subject: Europa-List: pitch torque tube attachments Well, here it is Friday afternoon, Europa factory tech support has knocked off for the weekend and so naturally I have a tech query! I'm about the set up the CS10 transverse pitch torque tube to get the CS09 mountings in the right place. I have assembled the pitch pushrods CS11 to the trunnions on the CS10 but I am puzzled by the fastener callouts. Using the combination of washers in the manual (AN960-516L each side of rod-end bearing) means that there is slight gap between the bearing and the trunnions and so the trunnions would be pulled together slightly when the nut is tightened. On the starboard trunnion, either changing to AN960-516 each side, or using 2 off AN960-516L each side would remove the gap. (Adding that extra thickness in the washer stack means that the AN960-516 under the bolt head has to be removed in order to get shank rather than thread in the other trunnion hole.) The centre and port trunnions need one AN960-516 (or 2 off AN960-516L) plus one AN960-516L for nil gap. Did anyone else find that the CS10 trunnions were too far apart for the specifed washer stack? Is my CS10 an odd one? Or is it maybe right that the trunnions should be permanently stressed by being pulled together? If no-one can suggest why not, I intend to use enough washers to allow the nut to be done up without causing any bending stress in the trunnions. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/ | 1130 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:50 PM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine surging Guys, Here is my one and a half cents. When working with Jerry Hope's 914 we found that the reset switch was all that was necessary to cure the surging... That is always my first in-flight correction. For my older engine, the wiper on the pot in the turbo servo wore out with time and the servo began to hunt. By hitting the reset switch, it momentarily cuts the power and stabilizes the manifold/boost and the servo related surge/boost fluctuations stop. As for the carb related problems, With the engine at idle, servo locked out (reset switch held to eliminate the servo from operating), run the engine up until you see about 35-39 inches of MP. If the engine does not surge, it is not the carbs. If you have the dual manometers, and can watch the MP on each carb, that will tell you volumes about your carb health. If one of the altitude compensators is hanging up, the engine will sag, calling for more boost, then the engine boost clears the carb balance problem, but that causes a momentary over boost which then causes the servo to cut boost, which then causes the carbs to be out of balance again. In this case you will see it in the twin manometers and a carb rebuild kit for $45 will fix you up. The carbs on a 914 take about 2 hours to get on and off, and 1 hour to replace the seals in the carbs. Then you get to retune the throttles. Pay attention to the position of the needle valve slide clip during the rebuild. If you get one position off, you will be running richer or leaner than normal. Bing has troubleshooting manual on the web and Rotax has the carb balancing video you can order, so check it out. If your throttle position sensor is worn, that too can cause the computer to force the engine into a surge on the older slower computer processor. The program sold by Rotax can check the position sensor. For low boost, or leaks, wow, that's a new one on me. I don't get to fly that high so I have no experience. My low boost problems is because I don't set the cable right on the servo or the cable slips. Rich Schultz found with running on AV Gas, his carbs stayed in tune if he added just a bit of Marvel Mystery Oil to his gas to lube his carb. His problems cleared up. Bud Custom Flight Creations (813) 653-4989 ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul McAllister To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:20 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine surging > Hi Folks, Could I offer a contrary view? I got to 600 hours on my 914 with no sign off issues wih the carbs, but on the adivce of many I sent my carbs into Lockwood to have them overhauled. What a mistake, the airplane now uses .3 to .4 more gallons per hour than before and it took me 4 tries to get the inlet system sealed up again so I could get maximum boost. Actually it still is not right, I can only get 27 inches and 16k feet and I should be able to get 34" so the darn thong is still leaking. With that said, it may well be your carbs, but the first place I would go is fuel filters, then look at the fuel pressure (needs to be measured differentially), then onto the turbo waste gate. What you will need to do is disconnect the cable and move it by hand to check for "stickyness". After all of the above, yep, I'd mess with the carbs. Just my 2 cents worth. Regards, Paul http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:21 PM PST US From: "ALAN YERLY" Subject: Re: Europa-List: pitch torque tube attachments Rowland, You are right. If the metal arms are slightly wide, adjust with washers as appropriate and if necessary, go to the next larger bolt to ensure shank coverage and washer the nut to tighten appropriately. As you surmised, common sense rules. Always buy extra bolts with slightly larger or shorter lengths for just these occasions. My life revolves around "the book calls for an AN3-10 but a 3-11 works better" questions in the shop. Happy building, Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations US Europa Dealer (813) 653-4989 ----- Original Message ----- From: Rowland & Wilma Carson To: Europa e-mail list Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 4:12 PM Subject: Europa-List: pitch torque tube attachments > Well, here it is Friday afternoon, Europa factory tech support has knocked off for the weekend and so naturally I have a tech query! I'm about the set up the CS10 transverse pitch torque tube to get the CS09 mountings in the right place. I have assembled the pitch pushrods CS11 to the trunnions on the CS10 but I am puzzled by the fastener callouts. Using the combination of washers in the manual (AN960-516L each side of rod-end bearing) means that there is slight gap between the bearing and the trunnions and so the trunnions would be pulled together slightly when the nut is tightened. On the starboard trunnion, either changing to AN960-516 each side, or using 2 off AN960-516L each side would remove the gap. (Adding that extra thickness in the washer stack means that the AN960-516 under the bolt head has to be removed in order to get shank rather than thread in the other trunnion hole.) The centre and port trunnions need one AN960-516 (or 2 off AN960-516L) plus one AN960-516L for nil gap. Did anyone else find that the CS10 trunnions were too far apart for the specifed washer stack? Is my CS10 an odd one? Or is it maybe right that the trunnions should be permanently stressed by being pulled together? If no-one can suggest why not, I intend to use enough washers to allow the nut to be done up without causing any bending stress in the trunnions. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson LAA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/ | 1130 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:01 PM PST US From: "craig bastin" Subject: Europa-List: O2 needs at altitude For those of you with completed AC or previous experience, I would like yo know what you use for supplimental O2 needs at say 15,000 ft. specifcally size of bottles, location, weight and how long they last in flight. Some of the legs here in australia, like north america, or UK across europe, could be 6+ hours duration and i want to make sure i have enough capacity. I realise this will vary depending on age, health, fitness level etc. Secondly has anyone used or considered the clip on O2 sensors (ear lobe/little finger) to monitor blood O2 levels accurately. Craig ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:31:44 PM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: {Spam?} Europa-List: O2 needs at altitude Hi Craig I don't fly my Europa above 3,000 feet very often but I do have a turboed Twin Com and we regularly fly that above 10,000 using oxygen. If you use the 'oxymizer cannula' it dramatically cuts down the amount of oxygen you use, it is also more comfortable than a mask. They are good to 18,000 after which the FAA requires you wear a mask. The link below will take you to a suppliers web site where you can get details of bottle size and weight together with capacity and times for different altitudes. http://www.aeromedix.com/category-exec/parent_id/2/category_id/4/nm/Indiv idu al_Flow_E_OX_Systems_2_4_Place I imagine our US colleagues will be able to provide better information, but they don't wake up for another 6 hours, so this link should keep you busy this evening. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin Sent: 11 October 2008 06:58 Subject: {Spam?} Europa-List: O2 needs at altitude For those of you with completed AC or previous experience, I would like yo know what you use for supplimental O2 needs at say 15,000 ft. specifcally size of bottles, location, weight and how long they last in flight. Some of the legs here in australia, like north america, or UK across europe, could be 6+ hours duration and i want to make sure i have enough capacity. I realise this will vary depending on age, health, fitness level etc. Secondly has anyone used or considered the clip on O2 sensors (ear lobe/little finger) to monitor blood O2 levels accurately. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.